HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s

[Bicknellski]

>>Cex guys / AsicMiner / Antminer / etc?

Only reason I doubt that is you would see that staggered as people turned them on.   In this case, the first turn on is huge, more than 100TH/s of power.   If it was random antminers, it would take a huge swarm of them to get that much power...small chance customers did this all at once.

This is some heavy weight power added that was done all at once, and then gradually expanded day by day in smaller numbers.   If there was ever an argument to not be pre-ordering ASIC's machines, this is probably it.   I think you will be able to tell which ASIC manufacturers are actually mining themselves, probably with better machines and selling the weaker ones they can sucker into preordering.

Good reasoning. But CEX has been adding and adding like that for sometime right?

[1713871669]

1713871669

[1713871669]

1713871669

[1713871669]

1713871669

[el_rlee]

I am really wondering how it is possible that such a shit storm comes over hashfast which, honestly in terms of Bitcoin ASIC company is not late by sooo much.
Hell, even BFL still has it's fan club. It's totally silent around Cointerra, compare that to what was going on here at the time when they went "officially late".

The facts speak for why there is a shit storm. You have read why people are upset right?

You gambled, you lost. Fucking deal with it, live goes on.

Preorders are so that the company can finance development and production of not-yet-existing devices. And that just doesn't go together with full-BTC-refunds.
That should have been clear from the beginning.

I'm just wondering: Coincraft thread: 33 pages, Cointerra thread: 64 pages, Hashfast thread: 352

[Phinnaeus Gage]

wow.... if they had ripped me off.... and i was within driving distance.....  guess where i'd be in the morning..... 

Let me guess: At one of their six known, and counting, addresses.

[Bicknellski]

I am really wondering how it is possible that such a shit storm comes over hashfast which, honestly in terms of Bitcoin ASIC company is not late by sooo much.
Hell, even BFL still has it's fan club. It's totally silent around Cointerra, compare that to what was going on here at the time when they went "officially late".

The facts speak for why there is a shit storm. You have read why people are upset right?

You gambled, you lost. Fucking deal with it, live goes on.

Preorders are so that the company can finance development and production of not-yet-existing devices. And that just doesn't go together with full-BTC-refunds.
That should have been clear from the beginning.

I'm just wondering: Coincraft thread: 33 pages, Cointerra thread: 64 pages, Hashfast thread: 352

I didn't pay a dime into HF. Nor a dime to BFL. Nothing into Cointerra or KnC. I did come close to losing my shirt as it were on Avalon Gen 1 chips but thankfully wiggled out with 0 losses on that.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg3936006#msg3936006 <--- I subscribe to this. Cointerra is no worse or better than any other pre-order ventures until they actually ship on time and fulfill their obligations. What is more surprising is say Monarch and BFL... same shit same pile same customers. Wow.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

You gambled, you lost caught your opponent cheating. Fucking deal with it, live goes on his cheating ass, briskly.

FTFY

[AussieHash]

Well it is a good thing they haven't shipped any BJs down under, 44C today (111F) for the Australian Open today.

[Bicknellski]

You gambled, you lost caught your opponent cheating. Fucking deal with it, live goes on his cheating ass, briskly.

FTFY

+1

There is a difference between being defrauded and simply making a bad investment. You need to decide which HF is. If you invested in HF it seems pretty clear what is going on here doesn't it? In terms of Cointerra personally I felt it was all about getting your coin so they could afford the prototyping so I steered clear. I don't doubt that if Cointerra fails to deliver as promised we are going to see the same carbon copy as we do here.

[jjiimm_64]

You gambled, you lost. Fucking deal with it, live goes on.

Preorders are so that the company can finance development and production of not-yet-existing devices. And that just doesn't go together with full-BTC-refunds.
That should have been clear from the beginning.

what I gambled on that the company was truthful USA company with known people behind it....and why I asked for clarification before i ordered, which i got in the following email:

Hi Jim,
Thank you so much for your patience while I got the answer for you, I greatly appreciate it.

The answer is if you buy Baby Jet for 51 BitCoins today and it does not ship, you will be refunded the 51 BitCoins you paid.

I hope that helps and hope you have a good weekend!

Thanks,
Cara

[analytics]

I am really wondering how it is possible that such a shit storm comes over hashfast which, honestly in terms of Bitcoin ASIC company is not late by sooo much.
Hell, even BFL still has it's fan club. It's totally silent around Cointerra, compare that to what was going on here at the time when they went "officially late".

The facts speak for why there is a shit storm. You have read why people are upset right?

You gambled, you lost. Fucking deal with it, live goes on.

Preorders are so that the company can finance development and production of not-yet-existing devices. And that just doesn't go together with full-BTC-refunds.
That should have been clear from the beginning.

I'm just wondering: Coincraft thread: 33 pages, Cointerra thread: 64 pages, Hashfast thread: 352

I'd agree with you on "deal with it on a lost gamble" for the folks who did this.....unless HF is doing something which appears to be illegal.   Swapping currencies in a refund feels like its probably not legal unless there is a loophole in the US that treats bitcoin as a non-currency right now.  Either way that feels morally wrong, especially if they actually had the hardware but kept it for themselves.   I think it's worth investigating if HF is using the machines for Mining, even if legally they would be allowed to take the machines for themselves and refund users..... that data, if true, will be useful for all mining speculators about pre-ordering ASIC's.  Even if they aren't, a dramatic spike and rate increase is another sign that average folks should not be buying ASIC's let alone pre-orders.  I think it's worth figuring out the source of the big spike so the community knows and makes informed decisions about how the mining is happening and changing.

I was going to go very big in mining and bailed on it.   This data was the nail in the coffin for me.  Even the best measures showed even if you had the latest equipment today, it would take several months to pay itself off.  Meanwhile larger players are coming online and making projections even more off (eg this +1-200Th/s suddenly), and in 2 months, more people will have that new hardware too.   Unless you are going big and probably starting with actual chips yourself in stealth, I don't see how you can win.

[gmaxwell]

Preorders are so that the company can finance development and production of not-yet-existing devices. And that just doesn't go together with full-BTC-refunds.
That should have been clear from the beginning.

What was clear from the beginning was that refunds of the full amount of BTC paid were promised— this, combined with MPP and the sounds of very short term completion, made the deal appear rather low risk, which was necessary considering that the prices were 2x (and later 4x) higher than the competition. Nor was the expectation of that unreasonable: they had outside investment, taking preorders fills the sales pipeline, makes inventories easier to manage, locks in coin earliest when people will pay the most, and keeps customers from going to the competition.

There are plenty of reasons to take (and pay) pre-orders that has nothing to do with wanting investomers who will take a bath on non-delivery. The prospective returns on the HF devices even if they'd delivered on time would have been at a _loss_ for the single units, then made up for (probably) by MPP. Thats not the kind of prices return anyone would have signed up for if they thought it was a high risk investment rather than selling a product.

(You also don't see e.g. complaints like this for cointerra (yet!) because they were a fraction of the price— while not offering the kinds of assurances HF offered, initially offered Dec/Jan (e.g. not much off— HF customers weren't pulling out pitchforks in November), and when they realized they couldn't make their deadlines they called up their December customers and offered to refund or add capacity to their order to make up for it.)

[dhenson]

I'm too pissed off today to deal with ignorant posts like the one by el_rlee.  I think I'll just click ignore and mix a cocktail.

[ecliptic]

At some point when you see "hey, if they actually stick to everything they promise, i literally cannot lose money in 99.99% of situations and will make massive profit" you are supposed to realize you are being scammed and dealing with liars who will fuck you over

To be fair, a lot of people have been burned on this and it's been going on for over a year now

* BFL
* Avalon Chips
* Hashfast
* Other's i'm probably overlooking

Satoshi's oversight was chosing a PoW algorithm that could be effectively ASIC'd for several orders of magnitude increase in hash rate and power efficency which nessiciarily centralizes all power, profit and leverage into the hands of less than a few dozen human beings on the planet.  If everything were to start from nothing the objectively far superior solution would be a GPU-targeted algo like scrypt which decouples the hardware manufacturer.

One man, one fucking person, one russian, now controls like 30%+ of the network (GHash.io/Cex.io) because he alone had an effective 65nm ASIC and HE ALONE had an essentially unlimited ability to make more money printing machines that only him and a dozen other people on the planet could compete with on terms of marginal cost/hash rate.

[el_rlee]

I'm sorry, I didn't know that they indeed promised full refund in BTC.

Anyways, it should have been clear from the beginning that this is a high risk investment, from any angle.

[gmaxwell]

At some point when you see "hey, if they actually stick to everything they promise, i literally cannot lose money in 99.99% of situations and will make massive profit" you are supposed to realize you are being scammed and dealing with liars who will fuck you over

Except that wasn't the deal here. If the BJ's had shipped on time assuming a 2%/day hashrate increase they would have been a 10% loss before accounting for the MPP, the MPP was only a correction back up to break evenish.  Actual hashrate growth since the batch 1 orders happened and now has been much greater— more like 2.3%/day. You could say that the BJs had a reasonable potential for some upside if delivered on time and to spec, but massive profit? No way. They wouldn't have made a massive profit if they were delivered to spec.

Thats what was crappy here... the prices were high, the projected revenue wasn't great. The _only_ thing the HF batch 1 offer had going for it was a layered stack of assurances that it was reasonably unrisky— refunds, mpp, (near)state of the art process, an experienced design house, located in silicon valley, a late announcement with near impending shipping (they initially seemed to be saying they weren't going to take preorders, but ultimately they did). I think this contributes to people not being happy about the current situation: We weren't promised unicorns and rainbows and so didn't expect the risks that comes with chasing them.

Though I suppose some customers used crazy optimistic hashrate projections and thought they were going to make a mint... though I don't understand why anyone doing that hadn't already sunk their money on KNC. It certainly wasn't the case for everyone. I saw it as a moderately low risk way that I could upgrade my mining farm to 28nm and continue mining as increased hashrates drove my avalons into non-profitability over power costs... and now they're asking people to lock in an 86% loss. ... perhaps even trying to force it, if that unsolicited refund check wasn't a one off fluke.  (Easy for people to jump to that conclusion, since there is still a fighting chance that batch 1 + full MPP will be somewhat less of a loss than taking that refund check; assuming hope upon hope that this time the delivery timeframes are correct)

[el_rlee]

as increased hashrates drove my avalons into non-profitability over power costs...

Really? I mean, seriously?
I can offer to take this burden of a business of you, free of charge if you wish!

[Bicknellski]

One man, one fucking person, one russian, now controls like 30%+ of the network (GHash.io/Cex.io) because he alone had an effective 65nm ASIC and HE ALONE had an essentially unlimited ability to make more money printing machines that only him and a dozen other people on the planet could compete with on terms of marginal cost/hash rate.

... I think that is what many of these ASIC fabricators want to do no? HF can just as easily now turn around and do that given all the "hard work" has been literally paid off by those who have invested.

We need to work on a different paradigm something that puts the power to mine in more hands. Continually backing the HF's of the world basically weaken the ability of community to find alternatives. There is a power in collective mining and production just need to tap into it.

[freddyfarnsworth]

You gambled, you lost caught your opponent cheating. Fucking deal with it, live goes on his cheating ass, briskly.

FTFY

Imagine that, crypto in a crypto conference, good advice.

Next they will say the machines passed 30days burnin - quality assurance, and are now shipping.

Glad I came to late for all this, read the whole thread...

[cedivad]

I just wanted to say thanks to HF for speeding things up here

I really doubt they're mining with it, since I don't think any of them want to go to prison. Catastrophes happen in business, and even if you think that HF is a bunch of fraudsters they're simply not likely to do something that would remove all doubt.

Well, Avalon and their lack of capacitors had a certainly better cover up story. I don't really think they care about anything but screwing this community.

[Gandalfs Mentor]

Sadly, a 30 day burn in for a prototype tech is not unreasonable.  The run might have been twitchy and they just need to let the magic smoke out of the week ones...  Isn't that what a proper respectable business would do; especially with a high failure rate due to tight operating parameters on cutting edge tech.  How better to protect your customers

Certainly to announce something of this nature would be death to their business...  Better to do the bad and ignore everyone, then beg for forgiveness later, that's OK right?

Or Door number three; they realized their tech was viable but only in a farm environment...  decided to set up a farm in say Canada, say Quebec to start mining and then issues GH equivalent shares to their steadfast customers who supported them through thick and thin... It could happen.

You would further likely sell any inferior runs really cheap with a short warranty through a drop ship type setup...  Say like right before you started making refunds for what you couldn't provide, Ya, Ya, Like the Friday before the Monday when you start making refunds....

http://bitcoingraders.com/product/wholesale-mining-motherboards-wasic-chip/?added-to-cart=35

Go Team Go!!!!   

[dhenson]

Just found a FEDEX missed package notice on my door.  I'm not expecting anything... who wants to bet that this is my forced USD refund?

I'll post picks to confirm tomorrow once it's delivered.