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Author Topic: PROOF: BFL used ALL pre-order moneys for development of their Bitcoin Miners!  (Read 3740 times)
Phinnaeus Gage
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July 27, 2013, 04:33:20 AM
 #1

http://web.archive.org/web/20110923170442/http://butterflylabs.com/pre-order-form/

Quote
Pre-order funds are not held in escrow so if you aren't comfortable with our using your payment to prepare your product, you may order post production units at the standard price of $599 when they become available.

Although cleverly penned by Sonny K. (a.k.a. Sonny Chris Vleisides), I'm pretty sure the above negates what Josh and all other BF Labs Inc. representatives have stated on record that no, none, zero, nada, nil, empty set, etc., pre-order moneys were used for the development of any products produced by Butterfly Labs. Remember the statement that if all those who ordered requested a refund, all moneys could easily be returned because it safely resides in a US bank in the form of fiat currency? (paraphrased)

I'm not a lawyer, even though I've watched Matlock, but isn't that against the law whether stated or not such is taking place? Also, doesn't that constitute an investor more so than just a simple customer?

Simple question time: Since BFL's original address is still being used on BitPay's site, how and by whom is the mail being collected when delivered to 25 E. 12th Street, Kansas City, MO (zip goes here)?

Bonus simple question: Why was that address used? (apologies for using only 5 words in that simple question)

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July 27, 2013, 11:56:21 AM
 #2

LE OUCH.... LE Ooops!

Dogie trust abuse, spam, bullying, conspiracy posts & insults to forum members. Ask the mods or admins to move Dogie's spam or off topic stalking posts to the link above.
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July 27, 2013, 03:50:14 PM
 #3


Simple question time: Since BFL's original address is still being used on BitPay's site, how and by whom is the mail being collected when delivered to 25 E. 12th Street, Kansas City, MO (zip goes here)?

Bonus simple question: Why was that address used? (apologies for using only 5 words in that simple question)
Definitely not trying to defend this company, as far as i'm concerned they are easily the most inept i've seen, however that address is personal lofts. Maybe it was just someone's apartment?
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July 27, 2013, 03:55:49 PM
 #4


Simple question time: Since BFL's original address is still being used on BitPay's site, how and by whom is the mail being collected when delivered to 25 E. 12th Street, Kansas City, MO (zip goes here)?

Bonus simple question: Why was that address used? (apologies for using only 5 words in that simple question)
Definitely not trying to defend this company, as far as i'm concerned they are easily the most inept i've seen, however that address is personal lofts. Maybe it was just someone's apartment?

Section 8 housing, hence that was ruled out. Sonny lives on Walnut St. with at his mother's address. Nasser was in France. The other 20 employees had yet to come unto the scene, including Sonny K.

A deceased lawyer close to Sonny's brother once occupied that address, though. Maybe Gabe is collecting his mail.

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July 27, 2013, 04:49:48 PM
 #5

I'm not a lawyer, even though I've watched Matlock

 Cheesy

I learned everything I know about the US Justice system by watching Matlock, Perry Mason, LA Law and Legally Blonde. And the OJ Simpson trial. Grin
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July 27, 2013, 05:55:52 PM
 #6

I am really hoping this is real.  Grammar and spelling aside the jist of the post rings true for me.  The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable for a newb like me!  Add to that the absolute trainwrek PR and customer service shown by the current players and I feel like this isn't the real world anymore but some wild west cowboy shoot out!
 

Hey man, I think you might have a viable lawsuit on your hands if you were forced to purchase something.  Did they use a gun or a knife or something?  Was your family being held hostage until you ordered?  If you were forced into ordering something, it's under duress and you aren't liable for any contract you signed.  You should definitely consult a lawyer, I think you have a case!

BTW - just out of curiosity, which vendor(s) forced you to order?


You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope).

Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!)

First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool!

Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word.  I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic?

Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer?

If you don't want people to take your inflammatory, false/misleading statements at face value, then say what you mean.  You have never been forced to order from any ASIC vendor.  You have always had the option to wait until the products were available for purchase and shipped to you.  Your entire premise is flawed, in so far as the fact that if you pre-ordered, you chose to do so of your own free will.  If the risk that you would be bearing is too much, then do not pre-order. There is absolutely zero requirement for you to do so, thus your statements are false.  You may not like it, true, but you are free not to participate.  Those that are willing to shoulder the risk and those that don't mind the situation will take your place... but there is nothing forcing you to participate at any level.

Yes, of course, attacking you... pointing out that your entire statement is false in a semi-humorous way is attacking you.  You're the only troll here, sir.


Josh's statement above in 20pt bold red font is in reference to what I posted in the OP:

Quote
Pre-order funds are not held in escrow so if you aren't comfortable with our using your payment to prepare your product, you may order post production units at the standard price of $599 when they become available.

Thus, Josh lied below:

I wonder if there will still be people saying that Butterflylabs is not a Scam after they fail to ship by 2027. Undecided
I guess a year and a few months is not long enough for most folks.

I wonder why there are still idiots saying that BFL is a scam now that they've started shipping.

I wonder why people are to0 lazy to read the posts explaining why they're scammers.

BFL said every month since OCT 2012 that they were on the verge of delivering only to get pre-orders in. The ones that ask for a refund get their money back. Sounds innocent enough right?

Well that funds RnD and that is tax free loans at 0% interest.

Perpetual pre-order/refund setup while knowing that the products were never going to be delivered until a year+ later and still waiting.

Raise prices to scare people from cancelling and after they deliver only a few jalas to get more pre-orders.

Too bad you can't figure this shit out. Idiot

Just because you repeat the same lies over and over MooC Tals doesn't mean people are going to start believing your lies.  But by all means, continue to spam every thread with your fantasies.


Note, Josh is referencing the entire post he quoted as a lie, including the one I highlighted in yellow.

Further proof that BF Labs Inc. lied about not using any pre-order moneys for the development of their company.

Feel free to poke holes in the above, Josh!

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July 28, 2013, 11:44:12 PM
 #7

Pretty funny shit.

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July 29, 2013, 04:18:38 AM
 #8

Pretty funny shit.

It sure would be funny if it weren't for the fact...

The statement was that we did not refund preorders.  We did.  We are no longer taking pre-orders and we are not refunding orders that are currently in the queue, that's correct.

It was stated multiple times that all sales are final when you ordered.  What part of that were you unable to understand?  We can't be responsible for your lack of reading comprehension or ability to understand simple English sentences.  Sorry for your reading disability, perhaps next time you should get someone to explain what terms and conditions mean to you before placing and order.  Now put on your big boy pants and accept responsibility for your actions instead of whining to me why you are unable to function in normal society and you should be a special case.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1428421#msg1428421

Quote
[Archive] BFL trolling museum

December 31, 2012, 07:34:42 PM                                                                      #1487

I find it interesting that the BFL clown crew is starting to contradict its collective self in an attempt find something, anything to complain about.

Can one of you super intelligent folk explain to me how the BFL forums can be censored and all posts critical of BFL are being deleted while at the same time being full of people complaining and asking for refunds?  It would seem to me that those two states of being are mutually exclusive, but somehow, through the magic of the CreativeX/Frizz/PuertoLibre stupidity filter, those states can exist simultaneously on the BFL forums.

Quote
I guess no one seems to wonder how a company can issue refunds of thousands of dollars of pre-order merchandise and Paypal never balks at it?

See, Yajaira D Guevara, this is why you're so pathetic.  You make statements like this.  Who says we issue refunds of thousands of dollars?  Your warped little mind?  We get very little refund requests in the grand scheme of things.  I know you desperately want it to be true that people are asking for refunds in droves, but it's simply not the case.  This is why I know a large majority of the whiny brats that cry about BFL still maintain their pre-orders.  Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you had a stealth order yourself, just like Frizz, but until there's evidence of that, I'll give you props for being one of the few trolls who actually doesn't have a pre-order.

You just go on advocating fraud there, Yajaira.  You are a real stand up guy!  Not only a liar, but a thief and fraudster as well, GG!


Special note in re. the above: Note, Josh is speaking in the capacity of BFL representing facts, albeit as he see it, and not as his personal opinion.

The following negates what I penned in the OP about moneys used for the development of BF Labs Inc.'s product line.

Quote
Your statement that "You guys presold the units and yet are holding on to this" is utter garbage.  Do you have proof, or hell, even any EVIDENCE of this?  No?  Why not?  Because it's idiotic, that's why.  This whole question has been answered, ad naseum, on the forum.  You failed to do you due diligence and now you're flailing around trying to justify your stupid questions.

That's right, you have no power to compel BFL to open their books.  A court of law and government agency will laugh in your face when you try to get them to compel BFL to open the books.  Here's the way that conversation will go:

Charles: There's this company, Butterfly Labs, that has taken preorders for a product and hasn't shipped mine yet.  I want you to force them to publicly post an audit of their books.
Court: On what grounds do you request we compel an audit?
Charles: I think they are using preorder funds to develop their product.
Court: What evidence do you have for this?  
Charles: Well, I don't have any evidence.
Court: So why do you think they are doing this, have they said they were?  When did you make your preorder?
Charles: No, they said they wern't doing it.  I made a preorder in January.  I think they are a scam and a ponzi scheme.
Court: I see... So you ordered in January, when did you ask for a refund?
Charles: I've haven't asked for a refund.
Court: So, you think they are a scam, but you haven't requested a refund?  Why not?  Has anyone else requested a refund?
Charles: Well, I don't really have a good answer as to why I haven't requested a refund.  Yes, other people have requested refunds.
Court: How many refunds were requested?  How many were denied?
Charles: Well, I'm sure lots were requested.  I haven't heard of any being denied.
Court: So... people have requested refunds and been given them.  You have an order with the company and you haven't canceled it and requested a refund.  You say they are scam, but have no evidence, no one has ever been denied a refund and they are a privately held company. Is that correct?
Charles: Well, yes, basically. But... they haven't shipped my order yet!
Court: Baliff, please escort this man off the premises.  If he resists, I recommend holding him for psychiatric evaluation.

I'd wager that's a fairly accurate representation of what a court of law would say.

Hey, Joshy Boy! Allow me, The Grand Monumental Asshole at Large (GMAL for short) to present that proof once again that BFL has so conveniently removed from their website: http://web.archive.org/web/20110923170442/http://butterflylabs.com/pre-order-form/

Quote
Pre-order funds are not held in escrow so if you aren't comfortable with our using your payment to prepare your product, you may order post production units at the standard price of $599 when they become available.

The question no longer looks idiotic now, does it Josh?

Simple question, Josh: Are you able to read the above or are a couple testicles blocking your view?

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July 29, 2013, 08:27:39 AM
 #9

DEVELOPMENT vs MANUFACTURING

Might want to edit the title since there is no proof ITT
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July 29, 2013, 02:32:37 PM
 #10

Pretty funny shit.

It sure would be funny if it weren't for the fact...

I meant funny in that other sense of the term.

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July 29, 2013, 11:24:10 PM
 #11

Pretty funny shit.

It sure would be funny if it weren't for the fact...

I meant funny in that other sense of the term.

You know I have a image of your feet in my bathroom, don't you?

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July 29, 2013, 11:30:48 PM
 #12

DEVELOPMENT vs MANUFACTURING

Might want to edit the title since there is no proof ITT

Very good point! Therefore, BFL could have used a million dollars to do everything a business would normally do prior to manufacturing their first unit, and that would be completely different, eh?

Let me see! Filling a warehouse with parts needed prior to manufacturing comes to mind. Then tossing said parts in the trash because of a major fuckup, then refilling the warehouse with the correct parts prior to manufacturing the first units also comes to mind.

To be clear, BFL was in the development process until they started manufacturing product.

Care to try again?

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July 30, 2013, 08:59:27 AM
 #13

There was a topic on the BFL forum on Sunday which was deleted by,presumably, Josh (as he was online and was Last Activity: Moderating according to his profile).

The topic was raising awarenesss that Kansas police were investigating BFL and contained information such as contact information for the detective in charge.
It was promptly deleted and the user (Angelito) was permanently banned.
Several users in the shoutbox noticed it was removed and the IRC room was also aware as Angelito (under the handle Captain_Atom) came into the room looking for BFL Staff.

I'm not a big fan of censorship, especially as:

a) The refusal of refunds is wrong and, in some countries, highly illegal,
b) Pretty sure its in contravention of the FTC rules on shipping for 30 days or refund (unless the customer is given specific shipping dates to which they agree),
c) If people want a refund, they should be given a refund simply for ethical reasons
d) They're abusing the 'No refunds once shipping has commenced' rule. That rule is used for when a company ship YOUR order, not any order. Even in the UK that would be illegal (you can receive a refund for upto 7 days after you've received the order).

Veni, Vidi, Cidere, Prenda In Gen, Interlitum Verlgo Stipes, Dissiptum.
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July 30, 2013, 12:05:06 PM
 #14

Well let's face it, we can either say you got BFLed, or they pulled a BFL on you.

█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
▓▓▓▓▓  BIT-X.comvvvvvvvvvvvvvvi
→ CREATE ACCOUNT 
▓▓▓▓▓
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July 30, 2013, 12:26:01 PM
 #15

The calculator at http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ says that the ROI on certain units is approaching very closely...

Jalapenos: If you don't start mining by August you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Little Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Minirigs: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.


I suspect BFL had worked this out, thus Josh's statement of "backlog cleared by end of September 2013". For what showed so much promise, it sure has turned out bad.

The long term fallout of the debacle has pretty much killed any future ASIC development by BFL. The only way they can survive as a company is to diversify their product range (BitSafe is an example of this).

Veni, Vidi, Cidere, Prenda In Gen, Interlitum Verlgo Stipes, Dissiptum.
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July 30, 2013, 02:12:50 PM
 #16

The calculator at http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ says that the ROI on certain units is approaching very closely...

Jalapenos: If you don't start mining by August you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Little Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Minirigs: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.


I suspect BFL had worked this out, thus Josh's statement of "backlog cleared by end of September 2013". For what showed so much promise, it sure has turned out bad.

The long term fallout of the debacle has pretty much killed any future ASIC development by BFL. The only way they can survive as a company is to diversify their product range (BitSafe is an example of this).

Will anyone trust BFL anymore, even with a different product range?

Best thing for them is to pack it in or sell the company off to some rich idiot.
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July 30, 2013, 07:17:43 PM
 #17

The calculator at http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ says that the ROI on certain units is approaching very closely...

Jalapenos: If you don't start mining by August you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Little Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Minirigs: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.


I suspect BFL had worked this out, thus Josh's statement of "backlog cleared by end of September 2013". For what showed so much promise, it sure has turned out bad.

The long term fallout of the debacle has pretty much killed any future ASIC development by BFL. The only way they can survive as a company is to diversify their product range (BitSafe is an example of this).

Will anyone trust BFL anymore, even with a different product range?

Best thing for them is to pack it in or sell the company off to some rich idiot.

Looks like they packed it up:

Quote
500 Internal Server Error

Sorry, something went wrong.

A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation.

If you see them, show them this information:

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July 30, 2013, 07:29:35 PM
 #18

The calculator at http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ says that the ROI on certain units is approaching very closely...

Jalapenos: If you don't start mining by August you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Little Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Minirigs: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.


I suspect BFL had worked this out, thus Josh's statement of "backlog cleared by end of September 2013". For what showed so much promise, it sure has turned out bad.

The long term fallout of the debacle has pretty much killed any future ASIC development by BFL. The only way they can survive as a company is to diversify their product range (BitSafe is an example of this).

Will anyone trust BFL anymore, even with a different product range?

Best thing for them is to pack it in or sell the company off to some rich idiot.

Looks like they packed it up:

Quote
500 Internal Server Error

Sorry, something went wrong.

A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation.

If you see them, show them this information:

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http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/butterflylabs.com

It's not just you! http://butterflylabs.com looks down from here.

BUT:

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.butterflylabs.com

It's just you. http://www.butterflylabs.com is up.

Seems they haven't configured their DNS to redirect the domain name to www.butterflylabs.com  Roll Eyes
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July 30, 2013, 10:07:59 PM
 #19

Quote
http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/butterflylabs.com

It's not just you! http://butterflylabs.com looks down from here.

BUT:

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.butterflylabs.com

It's just you. http://www.butterflylabs.com is up.

Seems they haven't configured their DNS to redirect the domain name to www.butterflylabs.com

It went back up, then was off awhile, now it's back up again.

Conclusion:

BFL's COO, COO COO the Clown, is playing with Sonny's Yo-Yo.

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July 30, 2013, 10:14:11 PM
 #20

Wait one Goddamn motherfuckin' second! It just occurred to me after I posted the above that maybe they are in the process of penning some pages for further use, fucking up in the interim showing one of the pages live, and I just got lucky and witnessed it. Now, I wish I would have a grabbed a screenshot. The only reason I didn't was because the page was too long, and I would have had to resize it to make it fit. Since it was all simple B&W text, I opted for the C&P method thinking nothing of it.

ODD!

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July 30, 2013, 10:15:51 PM
 #21

BFL's COO, COO COO the Clown, is playing with Sonny's Yo-Yo.

I'm sure Sonny does not even know how to use a Yo-Yo.
Sue him, S.V!
Let's get this resolved once and for all.



...

And as a reminder, I'll just repeat a very simple observation.

Haha... You really think the money you gave them 11 months and 2 weeks ago is still untouched ?
That's cute. Smiley

(And if think they used that money to cover any fee... Then it's a scam, plain and simple, no possible argument.)

I didn't say that.

Good. Then you also suspect they spent the money you gave them away 11 months and 2 weeks ago.

Now...
What could they have spent that money on, since they haven't shipped anything to you ?

Right.
They spent that money to build and ship units to some random other guys.

This type of "business" has a name, I'll let you find out, enough clues here.
Hopefully, the money of some recent "pre-order" will be used to build and ship your own unit.

That's still a very immoral thing to get involved into.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg2749602#msg2749602




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July 31, 2013, 12:45:10 AM
 #22

There was a topic on the BFL forum on Sunday which was deleted by,presumably, Josh (as he was online and was Last Activity: Moderating according to his profile).

The topic was raising awarenesss that Kansas police were investigating BFL and contained information such as contact information for the detective in charge.
It was promptly deleted and the user (Angelito) was permanently banned.
Several users in the shoutbox noticed it was removed and the IRC room was also aware as Angelito (under the handle Captain_Atom) came into the room looking for BFL Staff.

I'm not a big fan of censorship, especially as:

a) The refusal of refunds is wrong and, in some countries, highly illegal,
b) Pretty sure its in contravention of the FTC rules on shipping for 30 days or refund (unless the customer is given specific shipping dates to which they agree),
c) If people want a refund, they should be given a refund simply for ethical reasons
d) They're abusing the 'No refunds once shipping has commenced' rule. That rule is used for when a company ship YOUR order, not any order. Even in the UK that would be illegal (you can receive a refund for upto 7 days after you've received the order).

This'd be a lot more useful if it included said contact information.

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July 31, 2013, 12:45:57 AM
 #23

Will anyone trust BFL anymore, even with a different product range?

Best thing for them is to pack it in or sell the company off to some rich idiot.

Nobody who wasn't a consummate shill (Luke, Giga, etc) "trusted" them after the box-of-fans incident at that convention thingie.

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July 31, 2013, 07:15:34 PM
 #24

Phinneaus, did you notice that the page you linked was for the FPGA miners from two years ago, and has nothing to do with the ASIC preorder?
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July 31, 2013, 08:43:57 PM
 #25

Phinneaus, did you notice that the page you linked was for the FPGA miners from two years ago, and has nothing to do with the ASIC preorder?
Question: where are you reading anything about FPGA?
Answer: Right near the top of the link is "Pre-Order your BitForce SHA256 Single by filling out the form below."

FTFY

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August 04, 2013, 03:26:55 AM
 #26

Phinneaus, did you notice that the page you linked was for the FPGA miners from two years ago, and has nothing to do with the ASIC preorder?

Damn, MrTeal, when you're right, you're right. I take this post to mean that the premise of this thread in now null and void since I have yet to offer up proof that BFL does in fact had, and continues to use pre-order moneys to finance their operation.

Boy, what I would give to find such proof penned by anybody at Butterfly Labs, but what are the odds of me stumbling across such proof when BF Labs Inc. is so much more cleverer than I?

Perhaps, if I pray. Heavenly Father, Jehovah, please... Damn, that fucker's quick!

http://www.butterflylabs.com/faq/

Quote
Can I get a refund on my order?

While we reserve the right to handle refund requests on a case by case basis, pre-ordered products are non-refundable as is clearly stated at the time of purchase.  The reason for this is that pre-order funds are used in the build process which makes it impractical to reverse.  It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change.  This has created an enormous customer service burden which is resolved by enforcing the all sales final policy.

Some customers have asked why we've given order cancelation refunds to others, but they can't get one.  The answer is that we had opted to process order cancelation requests during our long product development phase as a courtesy to those who endured the stress of the unknown.  However, once full production began, a notice was sent out advising that orders would be shipped as produced according to the order queue and that if anyone was unwilling to endure the wait, they had a final opportunity to cancel.  Customers were required to positively confirm their desire to remain in the order queue and accept the order terms.

Pre-Order terms for new orders were updated on the website on April 1, 2013.  The terms state, "I accept the terms of the sale and understand that all sales are final and there is a backlog of orders and production & delivery of my order may take 2 months or longer."

As a Wyoming Corporation, we operate under the US Federal Trade Commission's business guide for mail or telephone ordered merchandise.  The relevant guideline suggests that if no delivery terms are stated or agreed to, then 30 days should be assumed.  In our case, we've gone to great length to ensure there is no ambiguity.  Customers are/were notified of the back order situation, the inability to cancel their order and the multi month wait to be expected.
Here is the relevant FTC guideline text:

"when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days."

To be clear, MrTeal, the above was penned at some point after the Luke Unit was pseudo-delivered on April Fools Day, 2013. Not in eons ago in 2011.

Therefore, each and every time that Josh or anybody else at BFL claimed that no pre-order moneys were used in the development of their miners, they, how can say this politely?, FUCKIN' LIED.

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August 04, 2013, 03:39:57 AM
 #27

They can and may refund your order simply to keep the good PR going, but at any moment they can refuse to do so legally thanks to company policy.

Be warned, they have no requirement to deliver you a product.

Shocking!

ALL CAPS ATTENTION EVERYONE!  IT IS TIME FOR THE ALL CAPS POST!  HOLY SHIT!

As was previously posted in a thread that the original poster has read, the non-refundable policy in the FAQ section is simply CYA language.  Also, please READ the FAQ referenced before posting a troll thread.

BFL has, and continues to refund pre-orders to anyone who asks- no matter what the reason.  Yes, there is a matter of trust and confidence that one has to have in any new thing, but butterfly labs has been nothing if not the most honestly hard working group of people throughout the transition from their FPGA line to this new ASIC line of devices.

But even if you were to go by the actual posted text on the FAQ section of the BFL site,

Quote
Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late November or early December 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.

= still has a provision for latest shipping date where refunds are legally required on the part of BFL.

Oh, and they actually have the funding (not pre-order money) to develop this product, and are currently progressing in ways that I am sure will surprise us all.

Surprise, surprise, surprise!


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August 04, 2013, 04:00:57 AM
Last edit: August 04, 2013, 04:25:56 AM by Phinnaeus Gage
 #28

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Quote
Why You Should Comply with the Rule

Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint). When the mails are involved, the Postal Service also has authority to take action for problems such as non-delivery. State law enforcement agencies can take action for violating state consumer protection laws.

Apart from this, your failure to ship on time, or your failure to notify your customers promptly about delays and to obtain their consent to the delays, or your failure to make full and prompt refunds when your customers do not consent to delayed shipment, can adversely affect your business by discouraging repeat purchases. Accordingly, most businesses regard compliance with the Rule as simply good business practice.

Hot damn! Sonny Vleisides must love flirting with diaster.

I'm toying with the idea, if nobody beats me to it, of starting a thread to solicit sigs to petition the FTC to sue BFL. I'm sure they could use the $16,000 per violation in their coffers.

Who would love to see such a thread?

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August 04, 2013, 10:19:17 AM
Last edit: August 04, 2013, 10:31:12 AM by Kelticfox
 #29

...As a Wyoming Corporation 1, we operate under the US Federal Trade Commission's business guide for mail or telephone ordered merchandise.  The relevant guideline suggests that if no delivery terms are stated or agreed to, then 30 days should be assumed.  In our case, we've gone to great length to ensure there is no ambiguity.  Customers are/were notified of the back order situation, the inability to cancel their order and the multi month wait to be expected 2.
Here is the relevant FTC guideline text:

"when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days."

1. I thought they were Kansas, not Wyoming?

2. Really? Where?
If someone says BFL_Jody's shipping log I refer to BFL_Josh's statement:

Quote from: BFL_Josh
Anyone who can do basic arithmetic would realize that the most important variables are missing from the equation, namely how many units are ordered on a given day and how many are shipped on a given day. Since those two variable are missing, any number you come up with is no better than a random selection of numbers from 0 to infinity.

So we have a situation where BFL openly admit that the important variables are missing which highlights that BFL are in fact not notifying customers of the back order situation, contrary to statements and FTC policies.

@ Inaba / BFL_Josh: Checkmate Bazinga.

@ Phinnaeus Gage:
Derek Schmidt (Kansas' Attorney General) Consumer Investigation Request
FTC Investigation Request
Kansas Bureau of Investigation Complaints (Johnson County)

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August 04, 2013, 12:32:41 PM
 #30

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Quote
Why You Should Comply with the Rule

Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint). When the mails are involved, the Postal Service also has authority to take action for problems such as non-delivery. State law enforcement agencies can take action for violating state consumer protection laws.

Apart from this, your failure to ship on time, or your failure to notify your customers promptly about delays and to obtain their consent to the delays, or your failure to make full and prompt refunds when your customers do not consent to delayed shipment, can adversely affect your business by discouraging repeat purchases. Accordingly, most businesses regard compliance with the Rule as simply good business practice.

Hot damn! Sonny Vleisides must love flirting with diaster.

I'm toying with the idea, if nobody beats me to it, of starting a thread to solicit sigs to petition the FTC to sue BFL. I'm sure they could use the $16,000 per violation in their coffers.

Who would love to see such a thread?

I have quoted the mail order rule a lot on this forum, if BFL is not in violation of the rule I will suck a goats dick!

I have also pointed out several times that on BFL's on site they state as their shipping representation a time from of 2 months or MORE.  I would personally consider this an indefinite delay and the FTC is quite clear on what a company must do when obtaining an indefinite delay consent from the customer.

From the FTC mail order link above:
What Later Notices Must Say

If you cannot ship the merchandise by the definite revised shipment date included in your most recent delay option notice, before that date you must seek the consent of your customers to any further delay. You must do this by providing customers a "renewed" delay option notice. A renewed delay option notice is similar in many ways to the first delay option notice. One important difference: the customer’s silence may not be treated as a consent to delay.

A renewed delay option notice must include:
•a new definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide any date;
•a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund;
•a statement that, unless you receive notice that the customer agrees to wait beyond the most recent definite revised shipment date and you have not shipped by then, the customer’s order automatically will be cancelled and a prompt refund will be provided; and
•some means for the customer to inform you at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card or toll-free telephone number) whether the customer agrees to the delay or is canceling the order.
•the following information when you cannot provide a new definite revised shipping date:
•the reason for the delay, and
a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.


I think the bolded is pretty important because if BFL is asking customer to agree to an indefinite delay than they must tell the customer that they may cancel the order ANY TIME before you ship.  They would obviously have to refund a cancelled order as well.

Anyone that thinks BFL is not stomping all over the mail order rule is very wrong, anyone that believes BF Labs spin of pre-orders, production has started, all sales are final blah blah blah bull shit and thinks refusing is refunds is legit is fucking delusional.   The only thing the FTC cares about is when the product shipped (and what representation the company made about shipping date).

Now whether or not the FTC decides to pursue this is entirely another matter, they do have limited resources (so to speak) and they do not pursue every case that comes across their "desks".

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August 05, 2013, 08:03:50 PM
 #31

Phinneaus, did you notice that the page you linked was for the FPGA miners from two years ago, and has nothing to do with the ASIC preorder?

Damn, MrTeal, when you're right, you're right. I take this post to mean that the premise of this thread in now null and void since I have yet to offer up proof that BFL does in fact had, and continues to use pre-order moneys to finance their operation.

Boy, what I would give to find such proof penned by anybody at Butterfly Labs, but what are the odds of me stumbling across such proof when BF Labs Inc. is so much more cleverer than I?

Perhaps, if I pray. Heavenly Father, Jehovah, please... Damn, that fucker's quick!

http://www.butterflylabs.com/faq/

Quote
Can I get a refund on my order?

While we reserve the right to handle refund requests on a case by case basis, pre-ordered products are non-refundable as is clearly stated at the time of purchase.  The reason for this is that pre-order funds are used in the build process which makes it impractical to reverse.  It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change.  This has created an enormous customer service burden which is resolved by enforcing the all sales final policy.

Some customers have asked why we've given order cancelation refunds to others, but they can't get one.  The answer is that we had opted to process order cancelation requests during our long product development phase as a courtesy to those who endured the stress of the unknown.  However, once full production began, a notice was sent out advising that orders would be shipped as produced according to the order queue and that if anyone was unwilling to endure the wait, they had a final opportunity to cancel.  Customers were required to positively confirm their desire to remain in the order queue and accept the order terms.

Pre-Order terms for new orders were updated on the website on April 1, 2013.  The terms state, "I accept the terms of the sale and understand that all sales are final and there is a backlog of orders and production & delivery of my order may take 2 months or longer."

As a Wyoming Corporation, we operate under the US Federal Trade Commission's business guide for mail or telephone ordered merchandise.  The relevant guideline suggests that if no delivery terms are stated or agreed to, then 30 days should be assumed.  In our case, we've gone to great length to ensure there is no ambiguity.  Customers are/were notified of the back order situation, the inability to cancel their order and the multi month wait to be expected.
Here is the relevant FTC guideline text:

"when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days."

To be clear, MrTeal, the above was penned at some point after the Luke Unit was pseudo-delivered on April Fools Day, 2013. Not in eons ago in 2011.

Therefore, each and every time that Josh or anybody else at BFL claimed that no pre-order moneys were used in the development of their miners, they, how can say this politely?, FUCKIN' LIED.
The development process is not the same as production. It's not ideal of course, but it's hardly uncommon that a company will use the customer's money to purchase the parts needed to complete the product prior to the product being delivered. Really, you're grasping at straws here. There's a big difference between using customer funds for development and using them for production. There's nothing to say BFL didn't use the pre-order money for development, but what you posted is a world away from being "proof".
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August 07, 2013, 01:26:22 AM
 #32

http://bflfraud.com/

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August 07, 2013, 04:37:23 AM
 #33

There was a topic on the BFL forum on Sunday which was deleted by,presumably, Josh (as he was online and was Last Activity: Moderating according to his profile).

The topic was raising awarenesss that Kansas police were investigating BFL and contained information such as contact information for the detective in charge.
It was promptly deleted and the user (Angelito) was permanently banned.
Several users in the shoutbox noticed it was removed and the IRC room was also aware as Angelito (under the handle Captain_Atom) came into the room looking for BFL Staff.

I'm not a big fan of censorship, especially as:

a) The refusal of refunds is wrong and, in some countries, highly illegal,
b) Pretty sure its in contravention of the FTC rules on shipping for 30 days or refund (unless the customer is given specific shipping dates to which they agree),
c) If people want a refund, they should be given a refund simply for ethical reasons
d) They're abusing the 'No refunds once shipping has commenced' rule. That rule is used for when a company ship YOUR order, not any order. Even in the UK that would be illegal (you can receive a refund for upto 7 days after you've received the order).

This'd be a lot more useful if it included said contact information.

Here is the guy to contact who is gathering info on BFL crime
Quote

Leawood KS Police already have a file opened.

Contact this person who is heading up the investigation:

JohnF@leawood.org

Det. John Freeman   (913) 642-5555 X209

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August 07, 2013, 04:41:06 AM
 #34

I've heard of people still being able to cancel their order through PayPal. Until people are unable to do that I think calling BFL a scam might be premature. They've shipped quite a few units and the production seems to be getting faster (though they are admittedly far behind). Still the difficulty hasn't been rising too fast in the meantime so I think there's a good chance that many people will still get their orders in time to make money (as long as they didn't buy at double price).

The FTC rules are definitely on the side of the consumer here. I see nothing wrong with BFL taking a long time to ship unless they really stop giving refunds. With PayPal acting as the intermediary I think they are going to be forced to do so as long as the customer payed through PayPal. That's because their terms of service state that you aren't even technically allowed to sell a pre-order without being able to ship a product.
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August 07, 2013, 04:49:02 AM
 #35

I've heard of people still being able to cancel their order through PayPal. Until people are unable to do that I think calling BFL a scam might be premature. They've shipped quite a few units and the production seems to be getting faster (though they are admittedly far behind). Still the difficulty hasn't been rising too fast in the meantime so I think there's a good chance that many people will still get their orders in time to make money (as long as they didn't buy at double price).

The FTC rules are definitely on the side of the consumer here. I see nothing wrong with BFL taking a long time to ship unless they really stop giving refunds. With PayPal acting as the intermediary I think they are going to be forced to do so as long as the customer payed through PayPal. That's because their terms of service state that you aren't even technically allowed to sell a pre-order without being able to ship a product.

Man.. what?

You *might* get a refund from PayPal after a long fraud dispute because PayPal forces the money transfer due to the fact that Butterfly Labs are denying refunds
There is a bloody HUGE difference...

They even updated their terms and conditions to state that no refunds will be honoured, ever.

Also.. needing to collect more pre-order money to fulfill previous orders. IS A SCAM. It's a pyramid-like system. The trickle of units going out IS THE BAIT YOU ARE FALLING FOR

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August 07, 2013, 03:25:29 PM
Last edit: August 07, 2013, 06:09:56 PM by LostDutchman
 #36

FYI,for those of you interested in contacting local law enforcement regarding BFL, Butterfly Labs is actually located in Overland Park, Kansas but because of a very old and outdated glitch in the United State Postal Service and a long standing local tradition, still has a Leawood, Kansas mailing address.

http://www.opkansas.org/city-government/police-department/

913-895-6300

The Kansas Attorney General's Office of Consumer Protection can be found here:

http://ag.ks.gov/consumer-protection

" Protecting Kansas consumers from scams, telemarketing fraud and other deceptive practices is a priority for our office. If you’ve become the victim of a scammer or con artist, we are here to help."

Johnson County, Kansas Small Claims Court

http://courts.jocogov.org/dc_smallclaims.aspx

" Small claims cases are heard on Monday at 2:00 p.m. and Tuesdays at 9:00 a.m. in Room 107 of the Johnson County Courthouse. Cases for the recovery of money or property up to a jurisdictional limit of $4,000 may be filed in the Small Claims Division. Attorneys are not allowed to represent parties in small claims proceedings prior to the entry of judgment. Small claims cases are generally heard by District Magistrate Judge Linda Trigg.

The small claims division of the Court Clerk's Office is located in the southwest corner of the 2nd floor of the Johnson County Courthouse.  It is open from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Monday through Friday."

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August 07, 2013, 08:51:00 PM
 #37

I've heard of people still being able to cancel their order through PayPal. Until people are unable to do that I think calling BFL a scam might be premature. They've shipped quite a few units and the production seems to be getting faster (though they are admittedly far behind). Still the difficulty hasn't been rising too fast in the meantime so I think there's a good chance that many people will still get their orders in time to make money (as long as they didn't buy at double price).

The FTC rules are definitely on the side of the consumer here. I see nothing wrong with BFL taking a long time to ship unless they really stop giving refunds. With PayPal acting as the intermediary I think they are going to be forced to do so as long as the customer payed through PayPal. That's because their terms of service state that you aren't even technically allowed to sell a pre-order without being able to ship a product.

Are you you kidding? Do you understand that many people are past the 45 day Paypal dispute window. Also many like myself paid with bank funds through Paypal so no credit card chargeback recourse. I have been jumping through hoops to get Paypal too listen to me. So far not so good. Paypal have admitted to me that they have alot of client with complaints against BFL.
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August 10, 2013, 08:47:42 AM
 #38

Quote
I have quoted the mail order rule a lot on this forum, if BFL is not in violation of the rule I will suck a goats dick!

You wait till I'm done, bud! Ever since Maria left, I've learnt to love goat dick. <note goat is not capitalized, though they probably taste the same>

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August 10, 2013, 09:40:19 AM
 #39

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Quote
Why You Should Comply with the Rule

Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint). When the mails are involved, the Postal Service also has authority to take action for problems such as non-delivery. State law enforcement agencies can take action for violating state consumer protection laws.

Apart from this, your failure to ship on time, or your failure to notify your customers promptly about delays and to obtain their consent to the delays, or your failure to make full and prompt refunds when your customers do not consent to delayed shipment, can adversely affect your business by discouraging repeat purchases. Accordingly, most businesses regard compliance with the Rule as simply good business practice.

Hot damn! Sonny Vleisides must love flirting with diaster.

I'm toying with the idea, if nobody beats me to it, of starting a thread to solicit sigs to petition the FTC to sue BFL. I'm sure they could use the $16,000 per violation in their coffers.

Who would love to see such a thread?

I have quoted the mail order rule a lot on this forum, if BFL is not in violation of the rule I will suck a goats dick!

I have also pointed out several times that on BFL's on site they state as their shipping representation a time from of 2 months or MORE.  I would personally consider this an indefinite delay and the FTC is quite clear on what a company must do when obtaining an indefinite delay consent from the customer.

From the FTC mail order link above:
What Later Notices Must Say

If you cannot ship the merchandise by the definite revised shipment date included in your most recent delay option notice, before that date you must seek the consent of your customers to any further delay. You must do this by providing customers a "renewed" delay option notice. A renewed delay option notice is similar in many ways to the first delay option notice. One important difference: the customer’s silence may not be treated as a consent to delay.

A renewed delay option notice must include:
•a new definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide any date;
•a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund;
•a statement that, unless you receive notice that the customer agrees to wait beyond the most recent definite revised shipment date and you have not shipped by then, the customer’s order automatically will be cancelled and a prompt refund will be provided; and
•some means for the customer to inform you at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card or toll-free telephone number) whether the customer agrees to the delay or is canceling the order.
•the following information when you cannot provide a new definite revised shipping date:
•the reason for the delay, and
a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.


I think the bolded is pretty important because if BFL is asking customer to agree to an indefinite delay than they must tell the customer that they may cancel the order ANY TIME before you ship.  They would obviously have to refund a cancelled order as well.

Anyone that thinks BFL is not stomping all over the mail order rule is very wrong, anyone that believes BF Labs spin of pre-orders, production has started, all sales are final blah blah blah bull shit and thinks refusing is refunds is legit is fucking delusional.   The only thing the FTC cares about is when the product shipped (and what representation the company made about shipping date).

Now whether or not the FTC decides to pursue this is entirely another matter, they do have limited resources (so to speak) and they do not pursue every case that comes across their "desks".

Sorry for the large font, but I misplaced my glasses. Please help me find that clause I highlighted in red above in the email below.

Quote
BFL Products Shipping Now
May 1, 2013


Dear Customer,

Shipping of our BitForce SC ASIC miners has begun!

You may have seen news reports of our ASIC miners in the wild and some of you may have already taken delivery.  It's all true.  We're finally shipping.  You will receive your order as we work through the shipping queue .

If you didn't know, you can check your order status on our website. Log in by clicking here. Use the same email and password you set up your account with.

If you don't have your password, use the Lost Password function to create a new one.


So what took so long?

This third generation of our SHA256 engine was a complex multi-year investment in bringing the latest semiconductor technology to bitcoin mining.

Developing a fully custom 65nm ASIC processor is not a casual undertaking. In fact, the new products have improved mining speed by a factor of 72. This much advancement doesn't come easy and it's fair to say that getting here has been eventful.

The key issue has been the engineering related to accommodating larger power draws than expected. A good example is the Jalapeno product. It was originally designed to be powered by USB but now consumes the power of a small light bulb (30w).

Consequently the power regulator, enclosure, airflow and PCB needed upgrading to suit. Although we are *very* aware of the undesirable dynamics of any delay, we were nonetheless obligated to make these updates in order to deliver a reliable product at the expected performance.  The same adjustments have been made with all products in the lineup.  You can see the adjusted product cases in our currently posted product lineup.  (The Mini Rig case will be double shipped to satisfy their orders which is why we've run out Mini Rig enclosure stock).
 
Final confirmation is required

Please be advised that due to the adjustments described above, we need your confirmation prior to release of your order into the final build queue and on to final delivery.  It may also be a good time to review your purchase altogether relative to the bitcoin market as this is the last opportunity to do so.  If your order is not confirmed, it will be canceled and your money will be refunded.
 
Thank you for your support and we wish you great satisfaction with your product!

IAO Launchpad Coming Soon
MPOE-PR
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August 10, 2013, 11:29:16 AM
 #40

Is BFL a member of the Bitcoin Scam Foundation? Have they been educating BFL/Inaba/etc on how exactly to scam better? Is Vessenes still holding every donator's fool's coins?

Very amused minds wish to know.

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August 24, 2013, 02:31:35 PM
Last edit: August 25, 2013, 07:19:52 AM by Bicknellski
 #41

Le Bumpty bump.

BFL = Shady.

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