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Author Topic: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining)  (Read 1042264 times)
Bitcycle
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September 04, 2013, 08:32:20 PM
 #5321

I WANT 2 BELIEVE!!!!!!

Well, I laughed.
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Ytterbium
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September 04, 2013, 08:43:29 PM
 #5322

Not exactly.  The W/mm2 issue has to do with the size of the physical chip, not the size of the packaging.  There's only so much heat that can be removed from silicon for a given temperature gradient. For the packaging, you can use materials like copper or aluminum that have higher thermal conductivity then Silicon.

While the die size determines the heat transfer at the silicon junction, the size and more importantly type of package is also important as the thermal energy must pass through the package as well and the lower the thermal conductivity the higher the core die temp is going to reach.

Yeah, I was just pointing out the size of the packages is not the major determining factor.  A "chip scale" flip chip BGA package would probably be tiny but still be able to remove a lot of heat (from what I understand)

Quote
The bizarre thing is that they reported using "QFP packaging, 44 pin, no exposed heat pad" for the size of the die that makes absolutely no sense @ >12W and is still hard to believe even at 5W.  They do make packages with exposed metal heat pad to improve heat transfer.  For example this is the Avalon chip.



It is strange. It would be helpful to have more information from them on why they decided to forgo the heat pad. Maybe they think the plastic will be able to dissipate the heat.  

The thermal conductivity of plastic is about 0.2-0.5 W/mK, compared to 200 for aluminum.

But, remember the 'm' stands for the thickness of the material, not the surface area.  If the package material is very thin, it can still conduct a decent amount of heat.

If you have a surface area of 1cm (0.0001m2), thermal conductivity of 0.5 W/mK, 50C temperature difference, and 0.25mm thick layer of plastic, you should be able to move

-(0.5W/mK) * 0.0001m2 * (50K / 0.0025m)
=-0.5W/K*0.0001m*(20000K/m)
=-0.5W/K*0.0001*20000K
=-0.5W*0.0001*20000
=-1W.

So, just one watt of cooling using those parameters. Maybe 2 watts if you count both sides.

It's also possible that they could be using a type of plastic with a higher thermal conductivity as well.

And, it's also possible my math could be completely off.  The units did cancel properly, but I could be doing that totally wrong Tongue

EDIT: A 12-inch wafer is 0.775mm thick, and a lqfp44 package is 1.2mm thick (not counting the pins).  So the thickness of the packaging should be 0.21mm on either side. But there could be other materials in there as well. If so, that should increase the amount of heat able to be emitted package a great deal.

Anyway, we'll find out in a few days what's actually possible.

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September 04, 2013, 09:02:30 PM
 #5323

It is strange. It would be helpful to have more information from them on why they decided to forgo the heat pad. Maybe they think the plastic will be able to dissipate the heat.  
Remember, this was the sample chip run. Perhaps they're working with the "worst case" scenario to test the limits of the chip without proper cooling? (I dunno, devil's advocate, etc.)

But this whole discussion is why I keep coming back here, despite all the other noise.  Thanks, guys. Smiley
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September 04, 2013, 09:38:56 PM
 #5324

I have a question for those who are selling, how many do you sell ?
I would like to know what the minimum price to buy to give.
I collect bitcoiny to build a house.  Roll Eyes Grin
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September 04, 2013, 09:42:53 PM
 #5325

Interesting, eASIC actually just confirmed the ActM deal: http://www.easic.com/vmc-uses-easic-to-achieve-24-756-ths-bitcoin-miner/

I think we might see some pressure on Labcoin shares as people sell to buy ActM.  I think ActM's share price should continue go up in very short term, and hopefully I'll be able to pick up some more cheap labcoin shares.

physalis
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September 04, 2013, 10:25:41 PM
 #5326

Haha look at their share price doubling, even though nothing actually happened Roll Eyes

And now it drags on over the whole september, then the whole october, and then most of november...
redbeans2012
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September 04, 2013, 10:33:47 PM
 #5327

Haha look at their share price doubling, even though nothing actually happened Roll Eyes

And now it drags on over the whole september, then the whole october, and then most of november...

I sold just about my entire position in ACTM.. I like the company but I dont want my btc's tied up for 3 months.  I'll invest again when the time comes.
AngelSky
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September 04, 2013, 10:37:40 PM
 #5328

Haha look at their share price doubling, even though nothing actually happened Roll Eyes

And now it drags on over the whole september, then the whole october, and then most of november...

I sold just about my entire position in ACTM.. I like the company but I dont want my btc's tied up for 3 months.  I'll invest again when the time comes.

ACTM are doing things right but people buying ACTM @ this price don't realize that this "news" is not for now but for.. 3 months like you said. I'm out from ACTM too now xD

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physalis
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September 04, 2013, 10:38:28 PM
 #5329

Haha look at their share price doubling, even though nothing actually happened Roll Eyes

And now it drags on over the whole september, then the whole october, and then most of november...

I sold just about my entire position in ACTM.. I like the company but I dont want my btc's tied up for 3 months.  I'll invest again when the time comes.

Did the same for the same reason a few weeks ago.
Guess I should have waited till the news release, but oh well... couldn't have made such good profit in LC then Smiley

I still expect that when LC starts mining, a lot will flock over from ActM. I don't think their current price will be sustainable until end of November.
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September 04, 2013, 10:39:29 PM
 #5330

I sold just about my entire position in ACTM.. I like the company but I dont want my btc's tied up for 3 months.  I'll invest again when the time comes.

I think this is about as good of a strategy as one could have at this point.
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September 04, 2013, 10:40:14 PM
 #5331

I don't think their current price will be sustainable until end of November.

I've been surprised before, but I agree.
Bitcycle
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September 04, 2013, 10:53:15 PM
 #5332


The average "investor" in these stocks is an idiot. 

A baby and his candy are soon parted.
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September 04, 2013, 10:55:27 PM
 #5333

I think most of the risk comes from the possibility the companies are just fake, or not going to do what they say they're going to do.  Any contrary evidence should boost the price.

But other then that, most of the 'scheduled events' should already be priced in.  Emphasis on should. The problem is these markets are tiny and full of n00bs.

I still think LC is the better deal in the short term, they may make more profit off their 50Th/s in October then ActM will off however much it's planning on making in November. We'll probably see up to 5-6Ph come online in November with Cointerra and HashFast.  Plus however much comes online from KnC machines in October.

And in order to compete, ActM is going to need a lot of capital for things like PCBs, etc. 10 chips per board is 250Gh/s per board.  You'd need 4,000 boards to get 1PH. Not a minor undertaking.

EDIT: (had originally typed 1TH, not 1PH)

Bitcycle
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September 04, 2013, 11:03:42 PM
 #5334

I think most of the risk comes from the possibility the companies are just fake, or not going to do what they say they're going to do.  Any contrary evidence should boost the price.

But other then that, most of the 'scheduled events' should already be priced in.  Emphasis on should. The problem is these markets are tiny and full of n00bs.

I still think LC is the better deal in the short term, they may make more profit off their 50Th/s in October then ActM will off however much it's planning on making in November. We'll probably see up to 5-6Ph come online in November with Cointerra and HashFast.  Plus however much comes online from KnC machines in October.

And in order to compete, ActM is going to need a lot of capital for things like PCBs, etc. 10 chips per board is 250Gh/s per board.  You'd need 4,000 boards to get 1TH. Not a minor undertaking.

I'm now reasonably certain neither ActM or LC is fake, but there's still a good chance either or both of them are in over their heads.  That's the risk that should be priced in now.  That, and time preference.

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September 04, 2013, 11:19:35 PM
 #5335

I think most of the risk comes from the possibility the companies are just fake, or not going to do what they say they're going to do.  Any contrary evidence should boost the price.

But other then that, most of the 'scheduled events' should already be priced in.  Emphasis on should. The problem is these markets are tiny and full of n00bs.

I still think LC is the better deal in the short term, they may make more profit off their 50Th/s in October then ActM will off however much it's planning on making in November. We'll probably see up to 5-6Ph come online in November with Cointerra and HashFast.  Plus however much comes online from KnC machines in October.

And in order to compete, ActM is going to need a lot of capital for things like PCBs, etc. 10 chips per board is 250Gh/s per board.  You'd need 4,000 boards to get 1TH. Not a minor undertaking.

You need 62.5 chips to get 1TH. On 256GH/s boards (16 chips@16GH/s), that's 4 boards for 1.024TH.
physalis
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September 04, 2013, 11:21:47 PM
 #5336

You need 62.5 chips to get 1TH. On 256GH/s boards (16 chips@16GH/s), that's 4 boards for 1.024TH.

He probably meant you need 4000 boards for 1 PH...
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September 05, 2013, 12:05:14 AM
 #5337

You need 62.5 chips to get 1TH. On 256GH/s boards (16 chips@16GH/s), that's 4 boards for 1.024TH.

He probably meant you need 4000 boards for 1 PH...

Yeah, meant one PH, obviously.

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September 05, 2013, 12:21:27 AM
 #5338

You need 62.5 chips to get 1TH. On 256GH/s boards (16 chips@16GH/s), that's 4 boards for 1.024TH.

He probably meant you need 4000 boards for 1 PH...

Yeah, meant one PH, obviously.

If there's 5-6PH online in November and Labcoin effectively gets 50TH online, that's ~0.9% of the total network hashrate, earning around BTC1000 per month.
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September 05, 2013, 12:26:45 AM
 #5339

If there's 5-6PH online in November and Labcoin effectively gets 50TH online, that's ~0.9% of the total network hashrate, earning around BTC1000 per month.

Whoa, 5-6PH in November? Is that remotely realistic? I've heard figures like 3-4PH by the years end...
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September 05, 2013, 12:29:09 AM
 #5340

You need 62.5 chips to get 1TH. On 256GH/s boards (16 chips@16GH/s), that's 4 boards for 1.024TH.

He probably meant you need 4000 boards for 1 PH...

Yeah, meant one PH, obviously.

If there's 5-6PH online in November and Labcoin effectively gets 50TH online, that's ~0.9% of the total network hashrate, earning around BTC1000 per month.

As we already stated, chip documentation isn't ready yet for public distribution.
We will start distribution to third parties when hashing power deployed will meet the goals we have set. This is our top priority right now.
We want to mention that we have received interview requests from several well know parties, CNN and Bloomberg being the most prominent  and late progress with our 65nm design lead us to believe we will deploy 200-300 TH within 2013.  

Obviously they've offered almost nothing by way of proof thus far, but that can be said about a few companies.

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