High fees are separating the wheat from the chaff

[hatshepsut93]

When some people were pushing BU, Bitcoin community was united. When SegWit activation was in danger, we had #UASF. When Bcash forked off, no one followed. When Jeff Garzik, 90% of miners and majority of Bitcoin services tried to takeover Bitcoin with their SegWit2x shitcoin, we stood together.

But what I see now? Many users who opposed all the previous contentious forks are now begging Core developers for an emergency blocksize increase! Those who were claiming that alts are useless are now saying that they are going overthrow Bitcoin.

The thing is, Core developers value decentralization much more than cheap fees. Cheap fees are everywhere - in your bank, in PayPal, in shitcoins, especially those that are centralized like Ripple and Iota, but there's only one coin that is backed by thousands of real nodes across the globe and petahashes of PoW. There is only one coin that can be entrusted with hundreds of billions dollars of value. All this became possible thanks to Core team who don't hire marketers to sell vaporwave like most altcoins do, who don't promise you anything at all, they simply write code for an open source project.

If you have a brilliant idea how to improve Bitcoin (like increasing the blocksize), go ahead and write a BIP. If it will get rejected by developers, feel free to fork and increase blocksize as much as you want. You then can tell all the other users who share your views to join your new network and enjoy low fees. Or, you can switch to any existing altcoin, all of them have bigger blocks already. But stop telling developers what to do - they don't owe you anything. Feel free to vote with your node, with your coins, with your fiat, with your asic.

[1713857881]

1713857881

[junoreactor]

Agree with this. There are enough cryptos now, everybody has a choice, nobody forced you to buy Bitcoin.
If you bought Bitcoin but had no knowledge about it while doing it, you have no one else but yourself to blame. You still have the choice to get more knowledge about Bitcoin, here is a very interesting ebook on the subject > What is Bitcoin
Take the time to learn about all the other existent cryptocurrencies on the market, and decide accordingly which one is the most adapted to your investment.

[hatshepsut93]

Agree with this. There are enough cryptos now, everybody has a choice, nobody forced you to buy Bitcoin.
If you bought Bitcoin but had no knowledge about it while doing it, you have no one else but yourself to blame. You still have the choice to get more knowledge about Bitcoin, here is a very interesting ebook on the subject > What is Bitcoin
Take the time to learn about all the other existent cryptocurrencies on the market, and decide accordingly which one is the most adapted to your investment.

That's indeed a great book, it was my first proper introduction to Bitcoin, when at some point I've decided that instead of reading crappy news sites and watching the price all day, I should learn more about how Bitcoin works, and this book answered a lot of my questions and inspired me to keep diving further.  Learning how cryptocurrencies work on a low level is the best way to insure yourself against scams and unrealistic or malicious projects that are so prevalent on this market.

[Vatimins]

I think you are missing the point.

Core Devs promised LN would fix the transactions & fee problems.

Well the transactions and fees issue have risen to the point that even die hard btc zealots are admitting btc is unusable at over $50 per fee.

Bitcoin Cash has seen a tremendous surge in support , because it works.

Don't like Bitcoin Cash , use litecoin instead, but either way they are affordable working crypto currencies and btc is not.

The only vapor ware is LN , where is it, how long do you expect people to wait, when they need to conduct business or transfer funds.
(Mailing a check is faster and cheaper than btc now, which should tell you btc is broken.)

And do the core devs up the blocksize to 2 mb, which is basically nothing extra, nope they say wait for LN,
so the stupid keep waiting and the price per btc keeps dropping and other coins keep increasing marketshare.

Your btc is dying, either you move to Bitcoin Cash or Litecoin or you drop to nothing , as btc will not recover from lost marketshare this time like in the past ,
it competitors are too focused and keep their payment systems working and affordable.

Your btc false religion is dying, accept it before it is too late.


╥Aztek

       Well, you really have got some great opinions pointed out man. It is really true that bitcoin is slowly dying and olit is pretty obvious that a lot of better altcoins out there. But still, even so. I will never lose hope for bitcoin. Not now, not tomorrow, and not ever. Bitcoin have. Over come every obstacle rhat came its way  amd im sure bitcoin will get through this.

[SyGambler]

you think we like the current situation ?? just please give me a single reason to introduce beginners to bitcoin these days
there is a problem , Roger ver and his team are using the problem for their agendas but that doesn't mean that there is no problem !!
bitcoin for me was a way that can unite the world with a payment method , but now it doesn't suit everybody !!
just think about other nations !! you may be in a country that doesn't give a damn about 10$ but 10$ means a lot in other countries !! ( fees are way higher than 10$ but just giving an example )

I was proudly promoting bitcoin previously but now I can't do it , cause people in my country can't afford the fees at all

I'm still hoping that this will change in the future and core team will find a solution , but in my country and many other countries bitcoin can't be used anymore

[junoreactor]

you think we like the current situation ?? just please give me a single reason to introduce beginners to bitcoin these days
there is a problem , Roger ver and his team are using the problem for their agendas but that doesn't mean that there is no problem !!
bitcoin for me was a way that can unite the world with a payment method , but now it doesn't suit everybody !!
just think about other nations !! you may be in a country that doesn't give a damn about 10$ but 10$ means a lot in other countries !! ( fees are way higher than 10$ but just giving an example )

I was proudly promoting bitcoin previously but now I can't do it , cause people in my country can't afford the fees at all

I'm still hoping that this will change in the future and core team will find a solution , but in my country and many other countries bitcoin can't be used anymore

Roger Ver and his promotional efforts towards Bitcoin Cash have not worked out yet, we will see in 2018, so far Bitcoin Cash is not seducing too many people, most of people into cryptos still have a very careful approach when it comes to buy Bitcoin Cash. I am not sure why to be honest. Some say it is a scam, please argue why you think this way. 

[SyGambler]

Roger Ver and his promotional efforts towards Bitcoin Cash have not worked out yet, we will see in 2018, so far Bitcoin Cash is not seducing too many people, most of people into cryptos still have a very careful approach when it comes to buy Bitcoin Cash. I am not sure why to be honest. Some say it is a scam, please argue why you think this way. 

bitcoin cash has now a little over 20% of BTC mareketcap , and to be honest when bitcoin cash first showed up in Aug I never expected that this coin will even reach 10% of btc value so IDK if we can consider it success
I will never consider it a scam , every bitcoin holder was able to get bitcoin cash so where is the scam ??

I'm not interested in it just because it's dividing the community , I'm hoping for a solution that will unite the bitcoin community again
 

[joebrook]

When some people were pushing BU, Bitcoin community was united. When SegWit activation was in danger, we had #UASF. When Bcash forked off, no one followed. When Jeff Garzik, 90% of miners and majority of Bitcoin services tried to takeover Bitcoin with their SegWit2x shitcoin, we stood together.

But what I see now? Many users who opposed all the previous contentious forks are now begging Core developers for an emergency blocksize increase! Those who were claiming that alts are useless are now saying that they are going overthrow Bitcoin.

The thing is, Core developers value decentralization much more than cheap fees. Cheap fees are everywhere - in your bank, in PayPal, in shitcoins, especially those that are centralized like Ripple and Iota, but there's only one coin that is backed by thousands of real nodes across the globe and petahashes of PoW. There is only one coin that can be entrusted with hundreds of billions dollars of value. All this became possible thanks to Core team who don't hire marketers to sell vaporwave like most altcoins do, who don't promise you anything at all, they simply write code for an open source project.

If you have a brilliant idea how to improve Bitcoin (like increasing the blocksize), go ahead and write a BIP. If it will get rejected by developers, feel free to fork and increase blocksize as much as you want. You then can tell all the other users who share your views to join your new network and enjoy low fees. Or, you can switch to any existing altcoin, all of them have bigger blocks already. But stop telling developers what to do - they don't owe you anything. Feel free to vote with your node, with your coins, with your fiat, with your asic.

I have a question though, what are the stance of the developers on increasing the block size so that we can have faster transaction and lower fees, if they are indeed up for it then why are really they stalling in the first place and if they don't want to increase it they should let us know already.

[sirkings0003]

When some people were pushing BU, Bitcoin community was united. When SegWit activation was in danger, we had #UASF. When Bcash forked off, no one followed. When Jeff Garzik, 90% of miners and majority of Bitcoin services tried to takeover Bitcoin with their SegWit2x shitcoin, we stood together.

But what I see now? Many users who opposed all the previous contentious forks are now begging Core developers for an emergency blocksize increase! Those who were claiming that alts are useless are now saying that they are going overthrow Bitcoin.

The thing is, Core developers value decentralization much more than cheap fees. Cheap fees are everywhere - in your bank, in PayPal, in shitcoins, especially those that are centralized like Ripple and Iota, but there's only one coin that is backed by thousands of real nodes across the globe and petahashes of PoW. There is only one coin that can be entrusted with hundreds of billions dollars of value. All this became possible thanks to Core team who don't hire marketers to sell vaporwave like most altcoins do, who don't promise you anything at all, they simply write code for an open source project.

If you have a brilliant idea how to improve Bitcoin (like increasing the blocksize), go ahead and write a BIP. If it will get rejected by developers, feel free to fork and increase blocksize as much as you want. You then can tell all the other users who share your views to join your new network and enjoy low fees. Or, you can switch to any existing altcoin, all of them have bigger blocks already. But stop telling developers what to do - they don't owe you anything. Feel free to vote with your node, with your coins, with your fiat, with your asic.

I was actually attracted by the subject. Notwithstanding the content of the write up, I want to say that right now the majority of investors in bitcoin are the rich. Others make use of other aitcoin.

[Anti-Cen]

"High fees are separating the wheat from the chaff"

I would say it's separating the brains from the brawn myself and the
drop in volume would seem to suggest that i am right.

it said "Virtual free transactions costs" and I am sure the speeds will improve but
i am not sure if many people will still be around or what the price will be.

Maybe after the segwit2x fork in three days time I will pull out myself
if it goes ahead this time because I like free coins and this sudden rush
to complete the fork was IMHO all down to the mega rise in fees

[HeRetiK]

I think you are missing the point.

Core Devs promised LN would fix the transactions & fee problems.

LN hasn't failed, just because it hasn't been deployed yet.

Well the transactions and fees issue have risen to the point that even die hard btc zealots are admitting btc is unusable at over $50 per fee.

Agreed. Doesn't mean that it will stay that way though.

Bitcoin Cash has seen a tremendous surge in support , because it works.

Don't like Bitcoin Cash , use litecoin instead, but either way they are affordable working crypto currencies and btc is not.

Both of which will see an increase in fees once they run at capacity. How well they'll actually scale is something we'll only see once their blocks are full as well. It's easy to stay affordable when demand is little.

The only vapor ware is LN , where is it, how long do you expect people to wait, when they need to conduct business or transfer funds.
(Mailing a check is faster and cheaper than btc now, which should tell you btc is broken.)

LN is already being tested on mainnet. It will take time, but progress is being made.

And do the core devs up the blocksize to 2 mb, which is basically nothing extra, nope they say wait for LN,
so the stupid keep waiting and the price per btc keeps dropping and other coins keep increasing marketshare.

Your btc is dying, either you move to Bitcoin Cash or Litecoin or you drop to nothing , as btc will not recover from lost marketshare this time like in the past , it competitors are too focused and keep their payment systems working and affordable.

Increasing SegWit blocksize to 2mb would lead to an effective blocksize increase from 4mb to 8mb. A little more than "basically nothing extra".

Let BTC drop and let other coins have an increased market share. Who cares about short-term price fluctuations, it's the big picture that counts.

Your btc false religion is dying, accept it before it is too late.


╥Aztek

It's a free market of currencies, each with their own up and downsides. Religion has nothing to do with it.


That being said, while I mostly agree with OP I don't see it quite as rosy.

BTC is undeniably in a bad place right now and I fully understand everyone that is eying at the other alts at our disposal. And while decentralization is of utmost importance, it won't help if BTC gets crippled by its transaction fees.

Nonetheless I'm fairly confident that the problems we are facing right now are merely bumps on the road. A simple block size would only fix transaction fees for a short time, which doesn't seem like a worth-while trade-off if BTC's long term independence is at stake.

[hatshepsut93]

you think we like the current situation ?? just please give me a single reason to introduce beginners to bitcoin these days
there is a problem , Roger ver and his team are using the problem for their agendas but that doesn't mean that there is no problem !!
bitcoin for me was a way that can unite the world with a payment method , but now it doesn't suit everybody !!
just think about other nations !! you may be in a country that doesn't give a damn about 10$ but 10$ means a lot in other countries !! ( fees are way higher than 10$ but just giving an example )

I was proudly promoting bitcoin previously but now I can't do it , cause people in my country can't afford the fees at all

I'm still hoping that this will change in the future and core team will find a solution , but in my country and many other countries bitcoin can't be used anymore

Bitcoin is a long-term project, it's a chance to get a stake in potentially world-changing technology. It's also way better in storing, preserving and increasing value than any altcoin.

Bcash is using populism instead of technical arguments. It is very effective for distracting noobs, but whales and experts are not buying it. Bcash is dead in the long run, because Litecoin, ETH and some other coins are much better.

I come from a country were people work 8-10 hours to earn $10, and I'm still not going to sell my BTC even if fees went to $100. I've learned a long time ago how to reduce and circumvent them, so they don't bother me much.

There's no need to choose between bitcoin and altcoins, you can have both. The best way to manage coins is to store majority of your value in Bitcoin in cold storage, and have a smaller Litecoin wallet for spendings. If you have to send Bitcoin, because LTC is not accepted, you can send LTC to Poloniex, sell it and send BTC from Poloniex with a flat 0.0001 BTC fee.

[pooya87]

opposing Jeff Garzik and refusing to use btc1 source code on GitHub is one thing, opposing SegWit2x and increasing block size to also scale on chain which is necessary even for Lightning Network is another.

Bitcoin Cash has seen a tremendous surge in support , because it works.

"..... because it works now. "

you missed the important keyword. and it won't work in the future. and if the "support" you people advertise is half  real this future won't be so far. and as soon as majority of BCH blocks reach at least 80% of 8 MB instead of being 200 kB, that is when the spam attack will begin. [unless it was BCH supporters who were spamming bitcoin]. and when that begins and the "support" continues growing you will be where bitcoin is right now, high fees, big backlog and you will be seeking solution.

what will your solution be then? adopt SegWit and LN then? or increase blocksize to 16 MB and centralize further? or maybe adopt LN but call it something else to fool newbies?

[hatshepsut93]

opposing Jeff Garzik and refusing to use btc1 source code on GitHub is one thing, opposing SegWit2x and increasing block size to also scale on chain which is necessary even for Lightning Network is another.

You are missing the point here - developers are not going to do any emergency forks to lower the fees, so it doesn't matter what people support. Public outcry to increase the blocksize will not change their mind, so I'm suggesting here to either trust Core or switch to some other project. Blocksize will be increased only when developers will decide that it would be safe for the network.

opposing Jeff Garzik and refusing to use btc1 source code on GitHub is one thing, opposing SegWit2x and increasing block size to also scale on chain which is necessary even for Lightning Network is another.

what will your solution be then? adopt SegWit and LN then? or increase blocksize to 16 MB and centralize further? or maybe adopt LN but call it something else to fool newbies?

Bcash still has no clear long term roadmap - so far they can't decide between stealing LN or gigabyte blocks.

[Anti-Cen]

"High fees are separating the wheat from the chaff"

Indeed they are and so is the mega slow transaction times but some people
will never learn when to hold em and when to fold them because greed prevents
them from learning this lesson.

Segwit2x will fork tomorrow and the developers will try to address these issues
so good bye IBM and hello Sir Alan Sugar (king chav)