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Author Topic: Miners and early adopters, make it rain!  (Read 4370 times)
FreeMoney
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July 06, 2011, 10:47:56 AM
 #21

To whom was that post directed? That was my exact point. The merchants that are well known and respected have the ability to influence demand...pretty basic stuff. There should be more efforts to do so.

If you are asking me, I generally am referring to the original post if I don't quote a different post. It looks like I agree with your point.

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July 06, 2011, 12:06:41 PM
 #22

What we need is people willing to take their paycheck each month, drop it into bitcoins, and live off of it.

Who is willing to take the bitcoin challenge? It doesn't even need to be early adopters, anyone can do this. Bitcoin is a way to buy things, make it your only way.

Every scary story about Greece defaulting and the subsequent tumbling of the euro brings me closer to doing something like that! The sterling pound hasn't been doing much better. I feel like the only thing propping these currencies up at the moment are chinese intervention with their massive reserves.

The only things make me hesitate are the fluctuations of the value, and the size of the bitcoin economy making it too easy to manipulate.

It would be an easy way to accept bitcoin as payment without any risk. Any store that can work off of a tab could use it.

This would be a great strategy I think because gradually they would start to hold onto a few and probably use them in some other way than just converting them to a traditional currency. They may also find that they retain more value than their bank account I think this would have a nice viral effect. :-)
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July 06, 2011, 05:14:31 PM
 #23

Quote

I appreciate your ideas, and I enjoyed reading the post you linked to, but more importantly the debate that followed.  I also appreciate the idea of a deflationary economy, but this is not a mature economy.  It's in a fragile state.  And it needs people to spend Bitcoins, so that more merchants will adopt it as a mode of exchange.

You cannot spend them until a merchant is willing to accept them. Bitcoin must be valued first in order for merchants to want to accept them. Saving bitcoins is a signal to the market that they are valued. This helps increase demand and merchants will jump into the market and offer to trade their products and services for bitcoin. The recent press and subsequent price spike drew in a lot of merchants who saw the value of getting paid in an appreciating currency.

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So it's none of your business how early adopters do with their money, but it is your business what we do with our money?  I'm not sure I follow that logic.  Why should we patronize Bitcoin vendors when it would be so much smarter for us to save our Bitcoins, since they're worth so much?

I didn't say it was my business what anybody does with their bitcoin. I merely suggested that, if you want to use bitcoin, park your money there instead of in dollars. This creates a demand for bitcoin - helping to increase its value and purchasing power. Then spend it with vendors who supply products and services that you would have bought anyway. Save the rest in bitcoin - again creating value for bitcoin and increasing potential demand. It would be silly to spend your money on things you don't need just because someone wants you to "stimulate the economy".

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The answer to that question is that we should patronize Bitcoin merchants and spend instead of save because if we don't, additional merchants won't adopt Bitcoin, and it will fade into obscurity and pennies on the dollar.  And what goes for us, who have only a few Bitcoins, goes for the early adopters, who have thousands of Bitcoins, a thousandfold.

Here's where the logic really gets fuzzy: Spend your bitcoin on products and services you don't need - essentially dumping your bitcoin on the market and depressing their price.
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July 06, 2011, 05:53:37 PM
 #24

It would be silly to spend your money on things you don't need just because someone wants you to "stimulate the economy".


 Grin  This comment makes me laugh. Today's government policies are so often overtly trying to make people do just that! Using hyperconsumersim to "stimulate the economy" 

In any case I agree, and it would strike me as one of the ways in which a deflationary economy should be different.
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July 06, 2011, 07:46:22 PM
 #25

Bitcoin must be valued first in order for merchants to want to accept them. Saving bitcoins is a signal to the market that they are valued. This helps increase demand and merchants will jump into the market and offer to trade their products and services for bitcoin. The recent press and subsequent price spike drew in a lot of merchants who saw the value of getting paid in an appreciating currency.

This is probably true.  My first instinct was to tell you that as a business owner, I can tell you that we don't care if a currency is appreciating or depreciating.  We care about getting more customers and better customers.  But I thought about it and changed my mind.  When the euro was gaining so much against the dollar back in 2007, I made a special effort to find more clients who paid me in Euros.  So clearly I do care about whether a currency I'm paid in is appreciating or depreciating, and others probably do as well.

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I didn't say it was my business what anybody does with their bitcoin. I merely suggested that, if you want to use bitcoin, park your money there instead of in dollars. This creates a demand for bitcoin - helping to increase its value and purchasing power. Then spend it with vendors who supply products and services that you would have bought anyway. Save the rest in bitcoin - again creating value for bitcoin and increasing potential demand. It would be silly to spend your money on things you don't need just because someone wants you to "stimulate the economy".

Looking back, I twisted your words, so it's only fair you did the same to mine.  To be clear, I'm not suggesting that people buy things they don't need in Bitcoins.  I'm suggesting that they use their massive collections of Bitcoins to buy the things they do need.  And maybe they're doing so, who knows?  And the idea that large holders of Bitcoin will come out and spend coins on crap they don't need is ludicrous at this point.  It's not going to happen, and that's not what I'm advocating.

My concern here is not so much "stimulating the economy" as it is marketing the economy.  There's a subtle but important difference.  I'm not suggesting that people go hire workers to dig holes and fill them back up for the sake of stimulating the economy.  I'm suggesting that people spend Bitcoins -- on things they need -- so others will hear about them.  Over the past few weeks, I've come to realize that the absolute most important thing for Bitcoin at this stage is publicity -- good, bad, or in between.  I'm also urging people with lots of Bitcoins to make smart investments in infrastructure.  Clearly it's needed and it's in their interest to support Bitcoin. 

I am attracted to the idea of a deflationary economy, that's one of the many reasons I am intrigued by Bitcoins.  Clearly, the inflationary model leads only to boom and bust cycles and debt.  That said, Bitcoin's success is not the foregone conclusion many supporters seem to believe it is.  I hope I wrong about this -- I actually am happy to re-evaluate the evidence and admit when I'm wrong (see above).  And perhaps in six months I'll come back to this thread and eat crow.  But it doesn't take an economist to understand that if all the holders of a new currency hoard it, never spend it, and never attract any new users, it likely won't succeed *as an actual currency*.  In that case, Bitcoin may still succeed as an asset class, but my hopes for this stroke of genius are much higher than that.  I want to be able to spend Bitcoins anywhere in the world.

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July 06, 2011, 11:30:04 PM
 #26


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My concern here is not so much "stimulating the economy" as it is marketing the economy. 

+1 I'm with you on this. Go bitcoin!
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July 07, 2011, 05:41:01 PM
 #27

Too long, didn't quote.

I already buy the things I need with my bitcoins. If I can't buy them directly, then I do it indirectly by getting (for example) a grocery store gift card, or buying USD at an exchange as a last resort.

And you may want to stop using that word "hoard". It's not hoarding, it's saving. Saving enables good investment (as opposed to the bad investment that easy credit enables). Good investment enables successful business.

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w1R903
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July 07, 2011, 05:57:22 PM
 #28

Too long, didn't quote.

I already buy the things I need with my bitcoins. If I can't buy them directly, then I do it indirectly by getting (for example) a grocery store gift card, or buying USD at an exchange as a last resort.

And you may want to stop using that word "hoard". It's not hoarding, it's saving. Saving enables good investment (as opposed to the bad investment that easy credit enables). Good investment enables successful business.

Then, thank you.  I wasn't referring to people like you, in fact, I thanked you in my original post.  And yes, if you're spending Bitcoins on what you need and holding on to the rest, I'd call what you're doing "saving" and not "hoarding".  In short, I agree with everything you said.

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July 07, 2011, 06:35:11 PM
 #29

I also proposed this a few months ago in a topic, it was about bounties for working on the core bitcoin code.

You'd say that the initial miners/adapters would have a big stake in bitcoin succeeding, thus it would be advantageous to them to spend a few of their coins to fund development.

Bounties could be posted on implementing certain features in the client, providing clients on new platforms, for finding security bugs (like browser vendors do), and so on.

But it never really caught on. As I understand it, none of the core developers are really big holders of coins, outside of that circle there also wasn't much interest, and then there's the usual trust issues for "who will collect and deal out the bounties?".

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July 07, 2011, 07:40:42 PM
 #30

Many (or most) of the people initially involved in Bitcoin's development, and who are now, spent all their thousands and thousands of bitcoins on pizza. Smiley

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