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Author Topic: Let's bury Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies once and for all  (Read 281 times)
jhean_arcane
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December 31, 2017, 08:07:43 AM
 #21

Exposing crypto currencies as ponzi schemes and showing that they never had nor ever will have anything to do with money is an incredibly easy task to do. All one needs to do is to look at one simple concept -the concept of number. A number is defined as a mathematical object used to count, measure, or label things. Now, given this concept let us ask one simple question: What 'thing', is measured, counted, or labeled, with the number called bitcoin?
.... the rest you can watch in this short Youtube video:
https://youtu.be/gcNngl8fCUY

Educate yourself first about cryptocurrency so that you will have a wider understanding about it. This forum is a good place for you to learn. Don't just focus on one source and then convince yourself that it is a bad thing.

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December 31, 2017, 08:33:38 AM
 #22

Exposing crypto currencies as ponzi schemes and showing that they never had nor ever will have anything to do with money is an incredibly easy task to do. All one needs to do is to look at one simple concept -the concept of number. A number is defined as a mathematical object used to count, measure, or label things. Now, given this concept let us ask one simple question: What 'thing', is measured, counted, or labeled, with the number called bitcoin?
.... the rest you can watch in this short Youtube video:
https://youtu.be/gcNngl8fCUY
oh thank you so much for defining what a number is could've never guessed .
Did you ever hear of the theory of value ? There is no value without exchange . Bitcoin has an exchange ,thus it has a value.
the Price and numbers alone aren't a factor to determine weither bitcoin is a scam , same goes for every fiat currency.
I am sorry to disappoint you, but bitcoin has no exchange. You cannot exchange bitcoin for something because bitcoin is an abstract mathematical object. It cannot provide utility. And without utility there is no value to be exchanged. Bitcoin price just shows how much goods, services or legal claims(money) people are willing to throw away. If I throw away my iPhone and my friend records this by writing my name next to the number 1, this won't make  number 1 valuable. Number 1 is still a number, it's still a mathematical object without utility, without value and as such it cannot store, measure or hold value of something. This is also true if my friend spends enormous amounts of energy to generate this number - to mine it via brute force. Number 1 would still be worthless mathematical object with no practical utility.  This is also true if I give a fancy name to this number - for example iPCoin. I can call it whatever I want but this won't make it practically useful. Crypto system is basically a child's play. All it does is generates, stores and transfers empty numbers between members.

The so called crypto market is not market at all, but a place that records how much values(goods, services and money) people are willing to throw away just to have numerical record of it. Calling a numerical record an asset, money, currency, tokens, coins, digital gold, won't make it valuable. Numerical value is just an emergent property of measurement of some object or emergent property of some mathematical or real relationship and it cannot have value in principle.

For example, number 100 next to the simbol "$", which is recorded in a bank's computer, measures the size of bank's liability towards a depositor and this liability is the result of a loan contract. This number is therefore just an emergent property of the loan agreement. It is a numerical representation of an actual object - a real legal relationship between the bank, borrower and depositor. It is an abstract object that measures something and it has no value on its own. This is like using number on a phone bill, to measure a legal claim of a telephone operator for telephone service . It is not the number that has value. The claim is what has value, while number is just a numerical representation of it.

Bitcoin however, is not a numerical representation of some legal claim, some legal agreement, or of someone's legal liability. It is not an emergent property of measurement of some actual object. Bitcoin is literally an empty and useless number. People are throwing away goods, services and money just to end up with valueless numbers. In order to rationalise this foolishness they gave names to this numbers or call them assets. This is like throwing away your iPhone, make record of it, then call this record an asset and saying that this 'asset' has value. It's really mind blowing how easy is to manipulate people. You can really make people believe that an abstract mathematical object is an actual asset. You can really fool them to give you real tangible goods, services and legal claims(dollars, euros, pounds) for numerical records on the internet. You can really trick them to give something for nothing. All you need is good rhetorical skills, some story that they are part of some new magical kingdom without evil governments or banksters....and you can do whatever you want with them. Albert Einstein was right when he said: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about th’universe!"
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December 31, 2017, 08:46:03 AM
 #23

Exposing crypto currencies as ponzi schemes and showing that they never had nor ever will have anything to do with money is an incredibly easy task to do. All one needs to do is to look at one simple concept -the concept of number. A number is defined as a mathematical object used to count, measure, or label things. Now, given this concept let us ask one simple question: What 'thing', is measured, counted, or labeled, with the number called bitcoin?
.... the rest you can watch in this short Youtube video:
https://youtu.be/gcNngl8fCUY
Here it is clear that you are not newbie by rank but also by knowledge , Because here you are saying about to expose cryptocurrency .
No Doubt that few altcoins are really time for the people and also to loss money but in actual reality we should have idea , trick and stretagy to handle them for our own profit in every possible ways .
Here it is only the trust that works in cryptocurrency otherwise without trust there will never exists demand and that will results into no value of cryptocurrency at all .
So here you need to change your thinking and also this field it you don't want make anything form here and only to insult cryptocurrency for no reason or any basic .

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TomUyamot
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December 31, 2017, 08:57:21 AM
 #24

Let us all bury fiat money then. What is fiat money after all? It is nothing more than just a piece of worthless paper. Or perhaps let us also bury gold and silver? What is gold or silver? They are just tiny stones mined from muddy mountains or under dirt. You know what, everything that has value in this mad world is agreed upon. Your bills and coins will give you food to eat, a car to drive, and a home to shelter you. But what is that really? They are simply human creations out worthless materials that began to acquire value because everybody agreed to. 
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December 31, 2017, 09:11:14 AM
 #25

Let us all bury fiat money then. What is fiat money after all? It is nothing more than just a piece of worthless paper. Or perhaps let us also bury gold and silver? What is gold or silver? They are just tiny stones mined from muddy mountains or under dirt. You know what, everything that has value in this mad world is agreed upon. Your bills and coins will give you food to eat, a car to drive, and a home to shelter you. But what is that really? They are simply human creations out worthless materials that began to acquire value because everybody agreed to.  
Value is something that has practical utility, be it: legal claim that grants rights to tangible goods and services or tangible goods and services. Numbers on the internet are no such things. Crypto is neither a legal claim nor something tangible. It's just an empty number, a numerical value. If you give your iPhone to someone and as a result some number has been modified this won't make this number practically useful. If no legally enforceable claim exists that is represented with this number, than this is the same as throwing away your iPhone.
  
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December 31, 2017, 09:35:35 AM
 #26

If it's not used as a currency ?
Then it's not one .

FUD first & ask questions later™
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December 31, 2017, 07:56:46 PM
 #27

Let us all bury fiat money then. What is fiat money after all? It is nothing more than just a piece of worthless paper. Or perhaps let us also bury gold and silver? What is gold or silver? They are just tiny stones mined from muddy mountains or under dirt. You know what, everything that has value in this mad world is agreed upon. Your bills and coins will give you food to eat, a car to drive, and a home to shelter you. But what is that really? They are simply human creations out worthless materials that began to acquire value because everybody agreed to.  
Value is something that has practical utility, be it: legal claim that grants rights to tangible goods and services or tangible goods and services. Numbers on the internet are no such things. Crypto is neither a legal claim nor something tangible. It's just an empty number, a numerical value. If you give your iPhone to someone and as a result some number has been modified this won't make this number practically useful. If no legally enforceable claim exists that is represented with this number, than this is the same as throwing away your iPhone.
  

So you keep talking about legality, I take it cryptos aren't legal where you are at. In the U.S., where the dollar is used/made, cryptos are legal. So, just like a bank note, the law does allow for the trade of cryptocurrency for goods and services. People are getting paid in Bitcoin, you can trade/buy things with cryptocurrencies at/from U.S. companies. So, just like the fiat world, cryptocurrencies are being used as currencies. It's just that the ledger is on an open source blockchain instead of being behind closed doors of the banks. Get more educated on what cryptocurrencies are and how they're used instead of putting fud out there. Why are you here otherwise?

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December 31, 2017, 08:11:06 PM
 #28

I see so many people throw these ponzi scheme accusations but isn't a ponzi scheme run and controlled by a person or a group of people who are trying to profit from it? To be able to prove that Bitcoin is built like a scheme one would have to identify the people cashing out. Who are they? The members of the Bitcoin Foundation maybe? Gavin and the CIA? Satoshi Nakamoto whose coins haven't been moved for years? It's just a bunch of wild theories.

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December 31, 2017, 08:30:11 PM
 #29

This has happen many times bitcoin price may dump but not to the facts it will dead. Bitcoin is the strongest online currency and becoming more popular. Also in demand these days because of its huge ability to take the price high. This cryptocurrency will bring you to challenge and to become succeed in life.

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December 31, 2017, 08:35:50 PM
 #30

I dont think that this will happen so fast. As long all the gouverment dont censore the internet, you cant stop cryptocurrencies. People are talking since 4 years about the cryptobubble. But this makes Cryptocurrencies just stronger! So dont believe the lies!

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December 31, 2017, 10:10:33 PM
 #31

The digital currency has its value and it is measured by the uniqueness of a combination of numbers that have a certain meaning and use. For example, what determines the cost of the painting? Is it the amount of paint expended or the high cost of cloth for it? No, it is measured by the aesthetic satisfaction of a person, expressed in a certain combination of length, color and color saturation. A cut diamond? What is its high cost? Obviously, the above arguments against the value of the crypto currency are untenable.
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January 01, 2018, 10:25:56 AM
 #32

 
If it's not used as a currency ?
Then it's not one .

This is not an argument.

Let us all bury fiat money then. What is fiat money after all? It is nothing more than just a piece of worthless paper. Or perhaps let us also bury gold and silver? What is gold or silver? They are just tiny stones mined from muddy mountains or under dirt. You know what, everything that has value in this mad world is agreed upon. Your bills and coins will give you food to eat, a car to drive, and a home to shelter you. But what is that really? They are simply human creations out worthless materials that began to acquire value because everybody agreed to.  
Value is something that has practical utility, be it: legal claim that grants rights to tangible goods and services or tangible goods and services. Numbers on the internet are no such things. Crypto is neither a legal claim nor something tangible. It's just an empty number, a numerical value. If you give your iPhone to someone and as a result some number has been modified this won't make this number practically useful. If no legally enforceable claim exists that is represented with this number, than this is the same as throwing away your iPhone.

So you keep talking about legality, I take it cryptos aren't legal where you are at. In the U.S., where the dollar is used/made, cryptos are legal. So, just like a bank note, the law does allow for the trade of cryptocurrency for goods and services. People are getting paid in Bitcoin, you can trade/buy things with cryptocurrencies at/from U.S. companies. So, just like the fiat world, cryptocurrencies are being used as currencies. It's just that the ledger is on an open source blockchain instead of being behind closed doors of the banks. Get more educated on what cryptocurrencies are and how they're used instead of putting fud out there. Why are you here otherwise?

No, I am not talking about legality. I am talking about the fact that cryptos are numbers and that numbers are abstract mathematical objects without value. You cannot compare bank notes to numbers(cryptos). A bank note is a legal document showing that people who hold it, credited borrowers with tangible goods and services. Since borrowers must pay back their loans, otherwise they would lose their homes, cars or other assets, they are legally forced to return tangible goods and services back to people who have bank notes. Hence, a bank note is a legal document that entitles the holder to tangible goods and services and as such it has intrinsic value. Cryptos however, are empty numbers stored on the internet. Comparing a legal document(which grants right to tangible values) to an empty number is nonsense of a high order.


I see so many people throw these ponzi scheme accusations but isn't a ponzi scheme run and controlled by a person or a group of people who are trying to profit from it? To be able to prove that Bitcoin is built like a scheme one would have to identify the people cashing out. Who are they? The members of the Bitcoin Foundation maybe? Gavin and the CIA? Satoshi Nakamoto whose coins haven't been moved for years? It's just a bunch of wild theories.

Ponzi is not determined by means of control or profit, but by one simple thing: people put in actual values in the form of dollars, euros, pounds, tangible goods and services... and they end up with promises, faith, hope or empty numbers(like in the case of cryptos). Or simply put: value in - junk out. If you give your iPhone(value) to someone and as a result some number has been modified(crypto) this won't make this crypto practically useful. It is still a number - an abstract mathematical object without practically utility - you can't eat it, drink it, wear it, drive it, sit on it, enter into it, please the aesthetic senses with it, etc. Hence, value in - junk out. And that is ponzi.

This has happen many times bitcoin price may dump but not to the facts it will dead. Bitcoin is the strongest online currency and becoming more popular. Also in demand these days because of its huge ability to take the price high. This cryptocurrency will bring you to challenge and to become succeed in life.

Bitcoin is not a currency. Bitcoin is a number, while currency is representation of loan contracts in a specific country.


The digital currency has its value and it is measured by the uniqueness of a combination of numbers that have a certain meaning and use. For example, what determines the cost of the painting? Is it the amount of paint expended or the high cost of cloth for it? No, it is measured by the aesthetic satisfaction of a person, expressed in a certain combination of length, color and color saturation. A cut diamond? What is its high cost? Obviously, the above arguments against the value of the crypto currency are untenable.

Digital currency is digital representation of loan contracts in a specific country and legal claims that originated form them(deposits for e.g.). Bitcoin is number in digital form, not a currency. A number can exist in human mind, on paper, in  computer's memory, in sand, etc. Bitcoin is number that exists in computer's memory. Digital currency is representation of loan contracts that exists in banks' computers. Calling a number (bitcoin) a currency won't make it representation of loans or legal claim.

You guys should educate yourselves about basic monetary concepts instead of just repeating nonsense that numbers are currency.
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January 01, 2018, 10:33:13 AM
 #33

Only uneducated people would call Bitcoin a scarce resource. I don't know much about  Bitcoin but I think is based on math and math is its foundation. Let's make an example why Bitcoin is same as real money. Let's suppose I finished all my FIAT dollars and I don't have no money anymore but I go to my computer and exchange Bitcoin F2F with some other user in a big mall with lots of security cameras and lots of people. I give this person Bitcoin and he give me Dollars based on the current exchange rate at the time we make the exchange.

You see, now Bitcoin is transformed from "scarce resource" to a mathematical value measure, in this case money.

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January 02, 2018, 09:08:46 AM
 #34

Exposing crypto currencies as ponzi schemes and showing that they never had nor ever will have anything to do with money is an incredibly easy task to do. All one needs to do is to look at one simple concept -the concept of number. A number is defined as a mathematical object used to count, measure, or label things. Now, given this concept let us ask one simple question: What 'thing', is measured, counted, or labeled, with the number called bitcoin?
.... the rest you can watch in this short Youtube video:
https://youtu.be/gcNngl8fCUY

This thread is really must be banned. There is no sense in author’s words. Bitcoin will become the full-right currency with the time. The process of this is inevitable. We’ll see by our own eyes.
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January 02, 2018, 11:09:59 AM
 #35

Exposing crypto currencies as ponzi schemes and showing that they never had nor ever will have anything to do with money is an incredibly easy task to do. All one needs to do is to look at one simple concept -the concept of number. A number is defined as a mathematical object used to count, measure, or label things. Now, given this concept let us ask one simple question: What 'thing', is measured, counted, or labeled, with the number called bitcoin?
.... the rest you can watch in this short Youtube video:
https://youtu.be/gcNngl8fCUY

This thread is really must be banned. There is no sense in author’s words. Bitcoin will become the full-right currency with the time. The process of this is inevitable. We’ll see by our own eyes.

This is as nonsensical as saying: with time, a picture of a car in digital form will become a road vehicle with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry people. Well... it won't. You can pay $1,000,000 or even $100,000,000 for a picture of a car but this won't make it a car. Likewise, you can pay $100,000,000 for a number in digital form(bitcoin) but this won't make it a currency. Currency is money of a particular country which originated from loan contracts. As such it grants its holder the legal right to tangible goods and services of people who have loans and is backed by enforceable loan contracts and collateral(or bank's assets in the case of unsecured loans). On the other hand, number in your bitcoin wallet is an abstract mathematical object that is completely useless. It is nonsensical to compare this two instances or believing that a number in digital form can become legally enforceable instrument just because this number is modified when people give their goods, services or money to someone.
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January 02, 2018, 11:25:50 AM
 #36

Currency is a medium of exchange, nothing more or less.  If use cigarettes, Pokemon cards or abstract numbers on a computer to trade for goods, services or abstract numbers, then they have currency.  Banging on about debt and whatnot just focuses on one type of currency.
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January 02, 2018, 02:01:09 PM
 #37

Currency is a medium of exchange, nothing more or less.  If use cigarettes, Pokemon cards or abstract numbers on a computer to trade for goods, services or abstract numbers, then they have currency.  Banging on about debt and whatnot just focuses on one type of currency.

Nobody prevents you to exchange goods, services or dollars for cigarettes, Pokemon cards or abstract numbers on a computer. But this doesn't make cigarettes, Pokemon cards or abstract numbers a currency. A currency is legally enforceable instrument which originated from loan contracts. A cigarette is a small cylinder of finely cut tobacco leaves rolled in thin paper for smoking. A Pokemon card is a collectible card based on the Pokémon video game series. A number is an abstract mathematical object. So, you can exchange whatever you want, but thing A will not magically become thing B because of that.

P.S. I have a number 5 written in my Word document. Are you interested in buying it? The price is just $1,000. On a standard Bitcoin exchange the same number costs $65,000.
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January 02, 2018, 02:39:15 PM
 #38

Currency is a medium of exchange, nothing more or less.  If use cigarettes, Pokemon cards or abstract numbers on a computer to trade for goods, services or abstract numbers, then they have currency.  Banging on about debt and whatnot just focuses on one type of currency.

Nobody prevents you to exchange goods, services or dollars for cigarettes, Pokemon cards or abstract numbers on a computer. But this doesn't make cigarettes, Pokemon cards or abstract numbers a currency. A currency is legally enforceable instrument which originated from loan contracts. A cigarette is a small cylinder of finely cut tobacco leaves rolled in thin paper for smoking. A Pokemon card is a collectible card based on the Pokémon video game series. A number is an abstract mathematical object. So, you can exchange whatever you want, but thing A will not magically become thing B because of that.

P.S. I have a number 5 written in my Word document. Are you interested in buying it? The price is just $1,000. On a standard Bitcoin exchange the same number costs $65,000.


You have a very narrow and specific view of currency, describing one form of modern use of currency.  How about you tell us how legally enforceable the $ currency is in France, or how legally enforcable the Euro currency is in Brazil?  From there, maybe realise you're creating a big fuss over your own definition of currency and not accepting the broad usage of the term.  Ever heard of gold or silver being used as currency?  Currency is an attribute of something used for exchange.
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January 05, 2018, 10:00:07 PM
 #39

Ponzi is not determined by means of control or profit, but by one simple thing: people put in actual values in the form of dollars, euros, pounds, tangible goods and services... and they end up with promises, faith, hope or empty numbers(like in the case of cryptos). Or simply put: value in - junk out. If you give your iPhone(value) to someone and as a result some number has been modified(crypto) this won't make this crypto practically useful. It is still a number - an abstract mathematical object without practically utility - you can't eat it, drink it, wear it, drive it, sit on it, enter into it, please the aesthetic senses with it, etc. Hence, value in - junk out. And that is ponzi.

You've just proven how confused you are about this terminology. What you've described doesn't refer to a ponzi scheme but to any high risk investment. You put money into a restaurant without doing the research and end up with a place near a smelly canal in a poor neighbourhood. Value in -junk out.
Following your way of thinking, when you put your money into a third party account like paypal only some numbers get modified. They can freeze your account and you get nothing.


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January 05, 2018, 11:32:14 PM
 #40

Yea... Nice spam and fud and also bs.

Did you just come here and make an account to cause FUD? Don't you have anything better to do? I can already spend my crypto on real world physical items so you talking total crap. Also if you think bitcoin is a ponzi then you seriously need to read a dictionary and learn to do your own research because in order for there to be a Ponzi there has to be a centre of control. Bitcoin is decentralized therefore can never be a ponzi. If I were you I would seriously consider in investing in some better education as you seem unable to read and logically put thoughts and facts together. I feel bad for you. Oh and noone is going to give you free views to that YouTube channel. Try harder Mr Troll. xD


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