Has anyone sold BTC won here in sig campaigns? how does tax work?

[orions.belt19]

What you can do is exchange your bitcoin into fiat once you are about to purchase the real estate or property. Whenever I earn from signature campaigns and want to spend it, I first convert it into fiat. It would also depend on the stand of your country of bitcoin. If they do not totally accept it yet, then it may be possible that your banks do not acknowledge bitcoin. If this were the case I advise you to convert your btc into fiat first before making any transactions as not to raise any suspicions for the authorities.

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[dokie987]

In the future I would like to buy some property with my BTC once it's worth a lot. Even small amounts made on signature campaigns in here could be worth a lot and may I want to diversify into real state in say 5 years or so.

I was wondering how would this be done? Im scared because we get daily news of any bank account that has to do with Bitcoin being frozen. I wouldn't like to be treated a criminal when I obtained my Bitcoin posting here... any help?

i think there is nothing to worry about this because bitcoin is legal anyway. And just recently my friend had been receiving money from bitcoin.

[Zackgeno96]

In the future I would like to buy some property with my BTC once it's worth a lot. Even small amounts made on signature campaigns in here could be worth a lot and may I want to diversify into real state in say 5 years or so.

I was wondering how would this be done? Im scared because we get daily news of any bank account that has to do with Bitcoin being frozen. I wouldn't like to be treated a criminal when I obtained my Bitcoin posting here... any help?

i think there is nothing to worry about this because bitcoin is legal anyway. And just recently my friend had been receiving money from bitcoin.

As far as you are withdrawing small amounts, there would not be any problems. But the moment you made any huge amount transactions, bank and other authorities may ask you the source of that money; so its better to prepare with all the answers.

[pereira4]

I just saw this on reddit, a recent case of an example of how the banks will froze your account if you sell relevant amounts. This guy sold $100k to buy a house, this is what happened:

Sold off $100k of BTC for a house.. Thanks to America and KYC I considered a terrorist/drug dealer/etc and cannot move my money.

Will keep updated if anyone interested. Have to prove I am not a drug dealer, etc. BUT when the banks sell 700b to cartels it's perfectly fine and just have to pay a 15mill fine.............. I always knew bitcoin existed so I had full control of my money and that is why I got into it.. Now I am experiencing it first hand...

If you store money under your mattress and cannot prove that you did not get it through Illegal means here is a high chance they will steal it and you will never get it back.. Welcome to the world of freedom....

edit This is all going on in Canada

UPDATE #1. I can withdraw the money, they are unsure if they will back my mortgage but say they have a secondary provider that will if they cannot. So for now it seems all good.

Clarification, I plan 100% to pay my capital gain tax.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7pwj08/sold_off_100k_of_btc_for_a_house_thanks_to/

We all definitely need to get our shit together and know what's going to happen when we sell. If you made 1 BTC from signature campaigns, most likely you will have $100,000 BTC in 5 years or even more, so you will want to buy some real estate and then you better know exactly what to expect when authorities demand the info.

Im looking at this and it's giving me an headache. Will need to get everything compiled and tracked down to every single satoshi I want to sell to prove im not a damn criminal (I hate how im a criminal by default in the eyes of the State).

Also it seems clear that if you ever mixed any amount of coins, these mixed coins can never be cashed out because you cannot prove the origin. So maybe even trading with Monero will make it impossible for you to buy a house with the gains because you cannot prove the trace of your money through a blockchain that is masked.

[LeGaulois]

Capital gains tax and Income tax are different

Capital gains tax: you invested money and you got a profit

Income tax: the system is based on "Trust". You report xxxxx$ per year, the institution trust you, they won't ask you to prove. But if by any chance they find out you cheated (whatever the method used), they won't forget you, and it is at this moment they will ask you some proofs (taxes control or fiscal control)

When you're working in a manufactory you don't give proofs of your income, right?. It's the same as a freelancer. You can't give them your Skype conversations, emails, etc showing you make an agreement with someone that you don't even know the name. It's the same, it's based on Trust

Also, you can always give your history from an exchange if they ask for proofs, that's why you can download a CSV file on exchanges.

As for the guy on Reddit, any decent bank will freeze or terminate your account when you receive such a big amount

[squatter]

Im looking at this and it's giving me an headache. Will need to get everything compiled and tracked down to every single satoshi I want to sell to prove im not a damn criminal (I hate how im a criminal by default in the eyes of the State).

In theory, you can have multiple personas via multiple wallets. One is your "legit" wallet and one has coins that can't necessarily be accounted for. As long as bitcoins are fungible, the latter wallet still has value. You just need to be careful about a) linking it to your "legit" wallet in any way and b) use the funds as cash under circumstances that don't require KYC.

Also it seems clear that if you ever mixed any amount of coins, these mixed coins can never be cashed out because you cannot prove the origin.

Why is that so? Once you remove all connections to your old UTXOs, can't you fabricate a new "origin?" Here in the US, I'm fairly certain that cash transactions in the low thousands get very little scrutiny. Hypothetically, one could use some "cash" (wink wink) to buy those mixed coins, and hold them as an investment to be sold later. As a buyer, how could you have known you were buying "mixed" coins? And why would it matter?

So maybe even trading with Monero will make it impossible for you to buy a house with the gains because you cannot prove the trace of your money through a blockchain that is masked.

If it can't be traced, doesn't that mean you can just hypothetically make up the transaction details? No one can prove otherwise, right?

[kimochidesh]

In the future I would like to buy some property with my BTC once it's worth a lot. Even small amounts made on signature campaigns in here could be worth a lot and may I want to diversify into real state in say 5 years or so.

I was wondering how would this be done? Im scared because we get daily news of any bank account that has to do with Bitcoin being frozen. I wouldn't like to be treated a criminal when I obtained my Bitcoin posting here... any help?

Till now I haven't heard any news of bank account freeze due to bitcoin withdrawal amount in my country.
Tax policy on bitcoin income is not cleared at all. Even I was also talking about this problem with my accountant yesterday and he suggested that until any tax law does not form on crypto-currency, we should pay taxes as per the current tax slab of my country's revenue law. Also, the bitcoin price surge will be considered as the capital gain when it is converted to the fiat.

[pereira4]

Capital gains tax and Income tax are different

Capital gains tax: you invested money and you got a profit

Income tax: the system is based on "Trust". You report xxxxx$ per year, the institution trust you, they won't ask you to prove. But if by any chance they find out you cheated (whatever the method used), they won't forget you, and it is at this moment they will ask you some proofs (taxes control or fiscal control)

When you're working in a manufactory you don't give proofs of your income, right?. It's the same as a freelancer. You can't give them your Skype conversations, emails, etc showing you make an agreement with someone that you don't even know the name. It's the same, it's based on Trust

Also, you can always give your history from an exchange if they ask for proofs, that's why you can download a CSV file on exchanges.

As for the guy on Reddit, any decent bank will freeze or terminate your account when you receive such a big amount

I don't know where you are from, but this is not true. If you are a freelancer, you must sign up in the government and specify what you are doing (for example, if you are making Youtube videos, I think you must sign up as "production of audiovisual content" or something like that) and you must present the receipts that Google pays you through Adsense, and you must also pay some taxes on all of this. I didn't had any idea of all any of this and im learning now. But forget about the concept of "im innocent until proven guilty", you are guilty by default and you must prove that the money you put in your bank account is legit. You may go under the radar for smaller amounts, but any relevant amounts and they will catch you sooner or later and if you don't have everything signed up and ready they will screw you up.

[pereira4]

Im looking at this and it's giving me an headache. Will need to get everything compiled and tracked down to every single satoshi I want to sell to prove im not a damn criminal (I hate how im a criminal by default in the eyes of the State).

In theory, you can have multiple personas via multiple wallets. One is your "legit" wallet and one has coins that can't necessarily be accounted for. As long as bitcoins are fungible, the latter wallet still has value. You just need to be careful about a) linking it to your "legit" wallet in any way and b) use the funds as cash under circumstances that don't require KYC.

Also it seems clear that if you ever mixed any amount of coins, these mixed coins can never be cashed out because you cannot prove the origin.

Why is that so? Once you remove all connections to your old UTXOs, can't you fabricate a new "origin?" Here in the US, I'm fairly certain that cash transactions in the low thousands get very little scrutiny. Hypothetically, one could use some "cash" (wink wink) to buy those mixed coins, and hold them as an investment to be sold later. As a buyer, how could you have known you were buying "mixed" coins? And why would it matter?

So maybe even trading with Monero will make it impossible for you to buy a house with the gains because you cannot prove the trace of your money through a blockchain that is masked.

If it can't be traced, doesn't that mean you can just hypothetically make up the transaction details? No one can prove otherwise, right?

If you buy Bitcoin with cash, you can no longer put it into the banking system, because if you do and you get caught, they will ask you where the money comes from, and as far as I know, if you can't prove it (if there is no receipt of any kind that would prove it was a transaction for legal money) then who knows what will happen, from a very high tax to total confiscation of funds, this is why I was worried about selling some of the coins which I mixed one time to test a mixer out when it was a new thing and I was curious... now im stuck with these coins and I can't use them to pay a house.. I regret so much mixing these damn coins but BTC was worth a lot less back then.

Just because they can't prove it, it doesn't mean you are ok to go, otherwise anyone sellind drugs for cash could argue the same and put the money in the bank.

[squatter]

If you buy Bitcoin with cash, you can no longer put it into the banking system, because if you do and you get caught, they will ask you where the money comes from, and as far as I know, if you can't prove it (if there is no receipt of any kind that would prove it was a transaction for legal money) then who knows what will happen, from a very high tax to total confiscation of funds, this is why I was worried about selling some of the coins which I mixed one time to test a mixer out when it was a new thing and I was curious... now im stuck with these coins and I can't use them to pay a house.. I regret so much mixing these damn coins but BTC was worth a lot less back then.

Just because they can't prove it, it doesn't mean you are ok to go, otherwise anyone sellind drugs for cash could argue the same and put the money in the bank.

Honestly, tax authorities don't care where it was derived from. They care that income taxes are being paid. The IRS is happy to see drug traffickers paying their taxes; consider Al Capone. The IRS's position was (and is) that illegally earned income is subject to income tax. Therefore, if you are cashing out Bitcoin, show a blockchain and paper trail back to your original purchase. Pay the appropriate capital gains. If you paid with cash, you paid with cash; it's not as if that's illegal.

If you received coins from a mixer, they are fungible. Swap them for some new outputs (from an exchange, for example) if you are so paranoid about criminality. You can still show the timeline of your possession to tax authorities. You sent coins you owned to the mixer, you received coins back. So what? Pay the taxes you owe when you realize the gains.....

[Sir Cross]

It depends on the country, obviously. In my one there is no clear legislation, but the most likely scenario is that you have to declare them as if you were being paid for being a freelancer writing for a newspaper or a magazine, so your earnings here counts for your income tax.

There is no legislation as well in my country so whenever I sell my btc for our local currency, I do not pay any taxes except for the fees in the exchange. Since income tax should apply regardless of what currency it is, once declared there may be some taxes imposed for btc that is exchanged. As long as it's part of your income, you would have to pay taxes as well.

It's best to find out first what is the legislation in your country regarding bitcoin and cryptocurrency and whether regulations are made for it.

[annam2017]

Now our government has not intervened or managed so they taxed, but the future is how to wait

[Abubakaradam]

It depends on the country, obviously. In my one there is no clear legislation, but the most likely scenario is that you have to declare them as if you were being paid for being a freelancer writing for a newspaper or a magazine, so your earnings here counts for your income tax.

There is no legislation as well in my country so whenever I sell my btc for our local currency, I do not pay any taxes except for the fees in the exchange. Since income tax should apply regardless of what currency it is, once declared there may be some taxes imposed for btc that is exchanged. As long as it's part of your income, you would have to pay taxes as well.

It's best to find out first what is the legislation in your country regarding bitcoin and cryptocurrency and whether regulations are made for it.

Yes it is true if we successfully transmit btc sales results that we give taxes to the government because the rules are the rules that must be enforced as good citizens we must comply with absolute government regulations. But now how to make the sale btc can be made a valid tax?

[zhekinsp]

Im looking at this and it's giving me an headache. Will need to get everything compiled and tracked down to every single satoshi I want to sell to prove im not a damn criminal (I hate how im a criminal by default in the eyes of the State).

In theory, you can have multiple personas via multiple wallets. One is your "legit" wallet and one has coins that can't necessarily be accounted for. As long as bitcoins are fungible, the latter wallet still has value. You just need to be careful about a) linking it to your "legit" wallet in any way and b) use the funds as cash under circumstances that don't require KYC.

Also it seems clear that if you ever mixed any amount of coins, these mixed coins can never be cashed out because you cannot prove the origin.

Why is that so? Once you remove all connections to your old UTXOs, can't you fabricate a new "origin?" Here in the US, I'm fairly certain that cash transactions in the low thousands get very little scrutiny. Hypothetically, one could use some "cash" (wink wink) to buy those mixed coins, and hold them as an investment to be sold later. As a buyer, how could you have known you were buying "mixed" coins? And why would it matter?

So maybe even trading with Monero will make it impossible for you to buy a house with the gains because you cannot prove the trace of your money through a blockchain that is masked.

If it can't be traced, doesn't that mean you can just hypothetically make up the transaction details? No one can prove otherwise, right?

If you buy Bitcoin with cash, you can no longer put it into the banking system, because if you do and you get caught, they will ask you where the money comes from, and as far as I know, if you can't prove it (if there is no receipt of any kind that would prove it was a transaction for legal money) then who knows what will happen, from a very high tax to total confiscation of funds, this is why I was worried about selling some of the coins which I mixed one time to test a mixer out when it was a new thing and I was curious... now im stuck with these coins and I can't use them to pay a house.. I regret so much mixing these damn coins but BTC was worth a lot less back then.

Just because they can't prove it, it doesn't mean you are ok to go, otherwise anyone sellind drugs for cash could argue the same and put the money in the bank.

I think we are safe until we pay enough taxes for the government.I think US government has separate taxation system for crypto usage so you need to follow all of them to uase your bitcoin which is earned of made from signature campaigns.
But my country don't have any specific rules and regulation yet for bitcoin earnings so we are enough to pay the income taxes yearly to avoid these kind of situations.

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

In the future I would like to buy some property with my BTC once it's worth a lot. Even small amounts made on signature campaigns in here could be worth a lot and may I want to diversify into real state in say 5 years or so.

I was wondering how would this be done? Im scared because we get daily news of any bank account that has to do with Bitcoin being frozen. I wouldn't like to be treated a criminal when I obtained my Bitcoin posting here... any help?

Whatever you earn is taxed as income, and the change in exchange rate would be taxed as capital gains depending on your holding period. I recommend keeping very close tabs on your earning and trades if you ever want to cash out into fiat without being heavily fined or even worse.


You basically have to pay your taxes at the end of every year for whatever you've earned for signature campaigns.

And then capital gains once you trade your Bitcoin for another altcoin or fiat.

[Alone055]

Maybe cashing them out in portions would be helpful if you know there is a chance of your bank account getting freezed because of the amount received. You should keep cashing them out over time and putting them in your bank, and when your target amount is reached, invest them wherever you want. Now you will surely have to sacrifice the extra profits you might get if the funds stay in Bitcoin for a longer time, but I think it is better than being marked a criminal, isn't it?

[pereira4]

If you buy Bitcoin with cash, you can no longer put it into the banking system, because if you do and you get caught, they will ask you where the money comes from, and as far as I know, if you can't prove it (if there is no receipt of any kind that would prove it was a transaction for legal money) then who knows what will happen, from a very high tax to total confiscation of funds, this is why I was worried about selling some of the coins which I mixed one time to test a mixer out when it was a new thing and I was curious... now im stuck with these coins and I can't use them to pay a house.. I regret so much mixing these damn coins but BTC was worth a lot less back then.

Just because they can't prove it, it doesn't mean you are ok to go, otherwise anyone sellind drugs for cash could argue the same and put the money in the bank.

Honestly, tax authorities don't care where it was derived from. They care that income taxes are being paid. The IRS is happy to see drug traffickers paying their taxes; consider Al Capone. The IRS's position was (and is) that illegally earned income is subject to income tax. Therefore, if you are cashing out Bitcoin, show a blockchain and paper trail back to your original purchase. Pay the appropriate capital gains. If you paid with cash, you paid with cash; it's not as if that's illegal.

If you received coins from a mixer, they are fungible. Swap them for some new outputs (from an exchange, for example) if you are so paranoid about criminality. You can still show the timeline of your possession to tax authorities. You sent coins you owned to the mixer, you received coins back. So what? Pay the taxes you owe when you realize the gains.....

You are making big claims with no clear proof. I don't know how the IRS is, but in other countries, you aren't going to get away with it. And I doubt you can be selling drugs on the street for cash, then put it all on the bank and buy a house, c'mon don't be delusional.


If you mix the coins, when you receive them back, you receive them from an huge mix of outputs... at this point, you can't prove how you acquired them. You sell them to an exchange.. so what, it can still be traced back into your wallet. Exchanges generate one deposit address, so it could be traced and then reach the point in which you cannot prove how these coins came into your wallet because you receive them through the mixed address originally. This is the problem that now I face with a decent amount of BTCs and I don't know what to do...


The only coins I could clearly prove that I received are from the signature campaigns. 

And the coins that I deposited then withdrew in now dead exchanges are also a problem, since the exchanges are dead...

I don't know what the taxman will request specifically so I hope that if someone goes along with this posts their experience.

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

If you buy Bitcoin with cash, you can no longer put it into the banking system, because if you do and you get caught, they will ask you where the money comes from, and as far as I know, if you can't prove it (if there is no receipt of any kind that would prove it was a transaction for legal money) then who knows what will happen, from a very high tax to total confiscation of funds, this is why I was worried about selling some of the coins which I mixed one time to test a mixer out when it was a new thing and I was curious... now im stuck with these coins and I can't use them to pay a house.. I regret so much mixing these damn coins but BTC was worth a lot less back then.

Just because they can't prove it, it doesn't mean you are ok to go, otherwise anyone sellind drugs for cash could argue the same and put the money in the bank.

Honestly, tax authorities don't care where it was derived from. They care that income taxes are being paid. The IRS is happy to see drug traffickers paying their taxes; consider Al Capone. The IRS's position was (and is) that illegally earned income is subject to income tax. Therefore, if you are cashing out Bitcoin, show a blockchain and paper trail back to your original purchase. Pay the appropriate capital gains. If you paid with cash, you paid with cash; it's not as if that's illegal.

If you received coins from a mixer, they are fungible. Swap them for some new outputs (from an exchange, for example) if you are so paranoid about criminality. You can still show the timeline of your possession to tax authorities. You sent coins you owned to the mixer, you received coins back. So what? Pay the taxes you owe when you realize the gains.....

You are making big claims with no clear proof. I don't know how the IRS is, but in other countries, you aren't going to get away with it. And I doubt you can be selling drugs on the street for cash, then put it all on the bank and buy a house, c'mon don't be delusional.


If you mix the coins, when you receive them back, you receive them from an huge mix of outputs... at this point, you can't prove how you acquired them. You sell them to an exchange.. so what, it can still be traced back into your wallet. Exchanges generate one deposit address, so it could be traced and then reach the point in which you cannot prove how these coins came into your wallet because you receive them through the mixed address originally. This is the problem that now I face with a decent amount of BTCs and I don't know what to do...


The only coins I could clearly prove that I received are from the signature campaigns. 

And the coins that I deposited then withdrew in now dead exchanges are also a problem, since the exchanges are dead...

I don't know what the taxman will request specifically so I hope that if someone goes along with this posts their experience.

I don't see why the IRS would give a shit about where the money came from as long as it's taxed. There are other institutions that will be out to get you for illegal activities though.

[darkangel11]

I don't see why the IRS would give a shit about where the money came from as long as it's taxed. There are other institutions that will be out to get you for illegal activities though.

Of course. You guys really have some serious problems... NOT.
I wish I had millions in BTC and the only thing to worry about was whether they'll ask where the money came from. I could say that it came from gambling, whoring myself out, being a slave to a wealthy woman whose hobby was mining cryptocurrency in 2011... You could even claim you got it from your parent who mined it years ago and then gave you as a gift.
That said I heard of cases where people were questioned for the origin of money. These things are rare, but happen from time to time. When it comes to cryptocurrencies they're easy to deal with since regulations don't exist. Addresses aren't assigned to IDs and there are no such requirements. if you say that you've mined the coins long time ago, or bought them for a few bucks, they won't be able to prove otherwise. There are no laws saying that you need to have access to all your old addresses to be able to prove that you owned them.

[squatter]

If you buy Bitcoin with cash, you can no longer put it into the banking system, because if you do and you get caught, they will ask you where the money comes from, and as far as I know, if you can't prove it (if there is no receipt of any kind that would prove it was a transaction for legal money) then who knows what will happen, from a very high tax to total confiscation of funds, this is why I was worried about selling some of the coins which I mixed one time to test a mixer out when it was a new thing and I was curious... now im stuck with these coins and I can't use them to pay a house.. I regret so much mixing these damn coins but BTC was worth a lot less back then.

Just because they can't prove it, it doesn't mean you are ok to go, otherwise anyone sellind drugs for cash could argue the same and put the money in the bank.

Honestly, tax authorities don't care where it was derived from. They care that income taxes are being paid. The IRS is happy to see drug traffickers paying their taxes; consider Al Capone. The IRS's position was (and is) that illegally earned income is subject to income tax. Therefore, if you are cashing out Bitcoin, show a blockchain and paper trail back to your original purchase. Pay the appropriate capital gains. If you paid with cash, you paid with cash; it's not as if that's illegal.

If you received coins from a mixer, they are fungible. Swap them for some new outputs (from an exchange, for example) if you are so paranoid about criminality. You can still show the timeline of your possession to tax authorities. You sent coins you owned to the mixer, you received coins back. So what? Pay the taxes you owe when you realize the gains.....

You are making big claims with no clear proof. I don't know how the IRS is, but in other countries, you aren't going to get away with it. And I doubt you can be selling drugs on the street for cash, then put it all on the bank and buy a house, c'mon don't be delusional.

Actually, I gave a historical example: Al Capone. Read his Wikipedia section regarding tax evasion. He never got busted for racketeering; only for tax evasion. Money can be laundered; that includes cryptocurrency if necessary.

What kind of answer did you expect besides "make a good faith effort to pay your taxes?" There is no such thing as "proof" here given the lack of cryptocurrency-specific precedents, virtually everywhere in the world. I mention the IRS because I live in the US and am most familiar with US laws. The prevailing legal expectation is usually a standard of good faith. What countries are you even referring to? You never said.

And what "proof" do you have that "you aren't going to get away with it?" You asked about a question about taxes on signature campaigns, and even though all of this activity is perfectly traceable and legitimate, you continue with paranoia about "you aren't going to get away with it." Bitcoin is extremely transparent. If you are so paranoid about being associated with perfectly legal activities because they use Bitcoin.....maybe you should stop using Bitcoin.

If you mix the coins, when you receive them back, you receive them from an huge mix of outputs... at this point, you can't prove how you acquired them. You sell them to an exchange.. so what, it can still be traced back into your wallet. Exchanges generate one deposit address, so it could be traced and then reach the point in which you cannot prove how these coins came into your wallet because you receive them through the mixed address originally. This is the problem that now I face with a decent amount of BTCs and I don't know what to do...

Your logic is simply wrong. Your tax authorities are extremely unlikely to ever see the internal databases of any exchange, especially if you aren't in the US. And very few exchanges don't allow generation of new addresses at this point. How exactly are your newly withdrawn coins going to be traced back to your original coins? And more importantly, who is tracing your mixed coins anyway? Why couldn't they have been legitimately bought, as they were?

The only coins I could clearly prove that I received are from the signature campaigns.  

And the coins that I deposited then withdrew in now dead exchanges are also a problem, since the exchanges are dead...

I don't know what the taxman will request specifically so I hope that if someone goes along with this posts their experience.

I've never come across such bizarre logic. "An exchange shut down, so now any BTC I withdrew from there makes me a criminal!" If you win cash from a casino, and that casino later shuts down, are you this terrified to claim your gambling winnings?

Gamblers and traders keep books. Those are your tax records. There are literally no other tax records in this situation. You can either make a good faith effort to pay your taxes, or you can continue wallowing and complaining about how your are so paranoid and worried. You want experience? I've been paying taxes on altcoin trading for 4 years now. I traded on Mintpal. I paid taxes on it. Every trade is a taxable event; every position has a cost basis. Your books should line up your BTC/fiat trades and fiat withdrawals. It's really not that difficult.

If law enforcement agencies look into you for it, your coins are even clearly traceable to Mintpal, etc. You're simply being paranoid and treating your coins as worthless for no reason. If you really think those coins are simply non-fungible, then I'm happy to buy them from you for a fraction of the spot price. PM me.