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FirstAscent
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August 07, 2013, 04:43:46 PM
 #81

I am am somewhat surprised that with the advanced level of knowledge in here - that some in here still have no clue about the tragedy that's happened to our environment. And to those of you like this - do you not realize how much the temperature is expected to change by just 2050? Do you not realize the ramifications of this? How the hell can you not get this? And are you effin crazy? We should all be extremely concerned about the environment and knowing-understanding that if we are to err - that it must be on the side of the environment. JFC, come on, quit rattling off crazy foxnews & teaparty talking points.

Maybe we're on the same page, for the most part. I'm not entirely familiar with your views, as expressed on this site, long term.

You might want to read this fairly long post I made some time ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97243.msg1073879#msg1073879

Really, I think that the majority of us in here are on the same page for the vast majority of the issues - disagreeing mostly to small degrees. And I've been enjoying the read, so thanks I'll check out your post.

Check out my post now, if you would, please. And I'd say that I'm definitely not on the same page with many, if not the vocal majority here.
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August 07, 2013, 04:45:17 PM
 #82

...Obviously scale is relevant, but we're not talking orders of magnitude here. 12.5% is impressive considering the powers that governments have!
...

This is the first time i'm hearing these stats, what do they mean, exactly?

bitlancr claims that private property owners account for 12.5 percent of nature conservation. That begs the question where the other 87.5 percent comes from. Funny that he gloats over the idea that apparently the 12.5 percent is all that is necessary.
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August 07, 2013, 04:46:20 PM
 #83

I am am somewhat surprised that with the advanced level of knowledge in here - that some in here still have no clue about the tragedy that's happened to our environment. And to those of you like this - do you not realize how much the temperature is expected to change by just 2050? Do you not realize the ramifications of this? How the hell can you not get this? And are you effin crazy? We should all be extremely concerned about the environment and knowing-understanding that if we are to err - that it must be on the side of the environment. JFC, come on, quit rattling off crazy foxnews & teaparty talking points.

Maybe we're on the same page, for the most part. I'm not entirely familiar with your views, as expressed on this site, long term.

You might want to read this fairly long post I made some time ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97243.msg1073879#msg1073879

Excellent post! You took it to a level of thought that those who get their info from the boob tube almost never venture into.
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August 07, 2013, 04:48:55 PM
 #84

I am am somewhat surprised that with the advanced level of knowledge in here - that some in here still have no clue about the tragedy that's happened to our environment. And to those of you like this - do you not realize how much the temperature is expected to change by just 2050? Do you not realize the ramifications of this? How the hell can you not get this? And are you effin crazy? We should all be extremely concerned about the environment and knowing-understanding that if we are to err - that it must be on the side of the environment. JFC, come on, quit rattling off crazy foxnews & teaparty talking points.

Maybe we're on the same page, for the most part. I'm not entirely familiar with your views, as expressed on this site, long term.

You might want to read this fairly long post I made some time ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97243.msg1073879#msg1073879

Really, I think that the majority of us in here are on the same page for the vast majority of the issues - disagreeing mostly to small degrees. And I've been enjoying the read, so thanks I'll check out your post.

Check out my post now, if you would, please. And I'd say that I'm definitely not on the same page with many, if not the vocal majority here.

Definitely, not on this issue. But...FWIW, you are speaking knowledge, logic and truth to misguided ignorance & feelings.
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August 07, 2013, 04:50:16 PM
 #85



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Precisely. This is why laws shouldn't be based on morals.

But your examples had to do with the law being based on morals.  Huh You said "If 51% of people agree with slavery, does that make it ok?" You implied that slavery is wrong. You're saying that we should follow your morals regardless of what the majority thinks.

Pragmatically, there is nothing wrong with slavery. So logically, if the majority of people believe in it it should be legal.

Quote
I couldn't disagree more. You're either contradicting yourself here, or you think the law should be subjective. The latter is worrying, in my opinion.

I think that you have your ideas confused with mine. My idea of laws is purely pragmatic: if the majority of people want a law, then it should be law. If the majority agrees with a law, then the majority will follow it. If the majority disagrees with a law, then more (not necessarily the majority) people will not follow it.

You, however, think that laws should be based on subjective opinions. You think that homosexuals should be allowed to marry just because you think it should be so. It has nothing to do with pragmatism (although bigotry is objectively bad). You also think slavery should be illegal, because that's your opinion. You don't care what other people think. That's why I said that you contradicted yourself. You supported the majority on one hand the minority on the other. You had no objective reason to go either way, or at least you haven't provided these reasons.

I, on the other hand, believe that laws should be chosen by the majority- whether I agree with it or not. I do not necessarily want people to pick the pragmatic option all of the time. Sometimes, "subjective" views, such as with slavery, must be taken.


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They are both hypothetical questions, I don't see the contradiction.

Laws should be based on principles of fairness, and natural rights (in oneself and one's property). No subjective "morals" should be involved.

First off, the gay question was not hypothetical. The majority is against gays, and they have no rights. The other was hypothetical, but I don't see why you asked it since it has no base in pragmatism. You apparently don't like subjectivity, yet you ask two subjective questions, one of which is not even based in fact.

The hypocrisy is driving me crazy. If laws are based on "fairness", then majority should rule. Why do you decide what is "fair" and what isn't. What makes slavery objectively unfair ? What makes discrimination against homosexuals objectively unfair? You say don't base things on "subjective morals", yet what you think should be law is based on your morals and ideas. In fact, who defined "fair"? Is it you? Is it me? I explained why mine made more objective sense- people are more likely to abide by laws that they agree with. If 51% of the people agree with a law, then 51% will follow it unquestionably. Explain why you deciding the laws based on your morals makes more sense.

Ironically, you mention "natural rights". Protip: You have no rights. Humans are the only animals who write up constitutions. Whatever you think is your "right" is subjective. Objectively, you have no rights. You are at the mercy of others. Murder, rape, theft, and other "crimes" have no real method of enforcement. The government may make murder illegal, but they can't bring you back to life if you're killed. Your "rights" are an agreement by the majority. There are some horrible people that would gladly murder or rape without consequences, but we do not give them that "right" because it is the subjective view of the majority.

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August 07, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
 #86

As soon as someone brings property rights sans regulations into the argument, as it always happens around here, the proponents of such fail to make a case, but earnestly believe that they have made a case, precisely because of their ignorance.

Knowledge is key.

If you're one of those arguing for property rights sans regulations, you really need to formulate your arguments against the material presented in a post I made some time ago, but bears repeating, apparently, over and over. I quote the post verbatim here.

Content of post follows, including quoted remarks from the person I was responding to:

Well, that was part of my point. In many places, endangered species aren't allowed to be owned. So, people poach to get them, and if they poach, they aren't going to be too concerned about taking care of the herds.

Ideally, the fact that animals are roaming on what's considered public property shouldn't prevent people from being able to round up and own them.

Still though, if some problem beyond elimination of a species was actually FirstAscent's concern, I'd like to hear it.

Okay, so let's go a little bit more in depth.

This one is something I'm surprised still has legs: the idea that declaring a species off-limits (or as belonging to "the commons") helps it to survive.

There's no shortage of cows or chickens. No one holds protests with signs saying "Save the Corn!"

When people are allowed to have ownership of a thing, and have a free market where they can profit from said thing, and have no guarantee of a bailout or entitlement should they screw up, then they have every incentive to manage their property well enough to continue profiting. When it comes to animals & plants, that generally means managing them well enough that they continue to reproduce more.

There are a number of flaws in your assumptions. We can walk through this.

To begin with, many species do not reproduce well in captivity. It took 112 years to yield a successful Sumatran rhino calf. Furthermore, poachers are simply not likely to expend such efforts, even if sanctioned, as it's much more profitable to simply poach, i.e. go out into the wild and kill. One need only look at the case of shark fins to understand the cost dynamics. Secondly, you are failing to acknowledge the public backlash in breeding megafauna for the cruel purpose of maiming (or in the case of pelts) killing the animal.

Before we go on, let's enumerate some well known cases of poaching:

- Gorillas for bushmeat
- Elephants for ivory
- Sumatran rhino for their horns
- Sharks for shark fins
- Tigers (and other big cats) for their pelts

Cattle are not killed for their horns or hooves alone. Cattle is an industry, and it does not analogize well. Most of the public accept the cattle industry. Most of the public do not accept killing animals which are endangered for specific parts, usually decorative. All of a cattle's parts are used when killed. This includes muscle tissue, organs, bones, hides and hooves. As an example, did you know that gummy bears are made from cow hooves?

I can sense that at this point, you might feel poised to counter some of the points I've made, and if you took one or two individually, you might feel that you'd have a case. But we haven't even begun, as I haven't yet shared with you what the real reason is for why I declared your statement to be based on false assumptions.

So let's begin. Some of the following material is derived from posts I have written in the past, but I think it will have greater effect if I merge it together here with a few edits and additions. Please read it through thoroughly.

Ever heard of the Spotted Owl and the controversy surrounding it? What was all that about?

The Spotted Owl is a top level predator in the northwest. It was declared an umbrella species (otherwise known as a keystone or flagship species), and listed as endangered. The timber industry had an issue with this. Here's why. The purpose of listing the Spotted Owl as an umbrella species was because in order to preserve the Spotted Owl population, the old growth forests in the northwest would have to be preserved as well. That meant the timber industry would not be allowed to harvest existing old growth forests.

Why are old growth forests important? Because they offer what are called ecosystem services. Secondary growth forests do not offer all those ecosystem services, nor at the same level that the old growth forests do. And that's it in a nutshell. It has been demonstrated that the Spotted Owl can live in secondary growth forests, but it cannot viably breed in secondary growth forests.

Thus, species such as the Spotted Owl are declared umbrella species to act as a protective umbrella for their respective environments as a way to protect those environments in perpetuity, because once they're all gone, the possibility of regaining all those ecosystem services that those ecosystems provide is pretty much nil.

Biodiversity, it's very definition, implies diversity, which arises from the existence of thousands, tens of thousands of species within any given ecosystem. This then results in the ecosystem being able to provide its services, known collectively as ecosystem services. The goal is to protect biodiversity by protecting ecosystems. A general technique for doing so is to declare a top level species within its respective ecosystem as endangered (because it is endangered or will become extinct if its ecosystem is destroyed) as an umbrella species. The ecosystem is then preserved under the umbrella of the umbrella species. This protects biodiversity.

Myrkul provided an example of relocating the Scimitar Oryx to a Texan hunting preserve as an example of species preservation, but it is not a case of protecting biodiversity.

As long as we don't disrupt natural ecosystems, they will provide everything listed below:

- Freshwater supply and flood control
- Generation and maintenance of soils
- Ocean flood protection
- Natural pest control
- Amelioration of the weather
- The cycling of nutrients
- Pollination of plants

The Millennium Ecosystem Assessment, published in 2005, breaks it down like this:

Supporting Services:

- Nutrient cycling
- Soil formation
- Primary production
- Preservation of genetic resources

Regulating services:

- Climate amelioration
- Flood control
- Agricultural pest control
- Water purification

Provisioning services:

- Food
- Timber and fiber
- Fresh water
- Fuel

Cultural services:

- Esthetic
- Spiritual
- Educational
- Recreational

Other disruptive effects to the ecosystem services enumerated above include harvesting resources (collateral damage), toxic waste, atmospheric pollution, garbage waste, over harvesting (fish), pesticides, noise, etc.

What disrupts the above?

Reduction in the number of top level predators. Top level predators, such as raptors, wolves, cats, etc. regulate the ecosystem by preventing overgrazing of vegetation, which plays a role in providing habitat to the smaller organisms, all the way down to the microscopic level, which in turn plays a role in nutrient cycling, water purification, soil formation, etc. In other words, top level predators ultimately affect the health of the entire ecosystem. This process, where top level species affect the environment as a cascading effect are known collectively as trophic cascades.

As an example, let's examine the case of wolves. Numerous species of wolves were eradicated in the twentieth century (by cattle ranchers, incidentally). As it turns out, it was determined that they played a role within the dynamics of the ecosystems. Their elimination resulted in a deleterious effect on the ecosystem services, due to the removal of a trophic cascade effect.

When in the presence of wolves, ungulates generally do not browse in riparian zones. Riparian zones are the areas of rich vegetation along the banks of streams, creeks and rivers. The reason ungulates do not browse in such areas when wolves are present is because their escape route is hindered by the slopes of the river bank, the body of water itself, and the denser vegetation. When wolves are removed, ungulates in general decimate the vegetation in these riparian zones, which in turn results in habitat loss for numerous species, typically beginning with rodents, and cascading all the way down to the microscopic level, where numerous species exist within the soil. This loss of habitat within the riparian zones results in a huge loss of ecosystem services, including nutrient cycling, soil formation, flood control and water purification

Edge effects are another disrupting process to ecosystems and the ecosystem services they provide. Typically, property ownership is the cause. The fracturing of an ecosystem disrupts its viability, by inhibiting migration, reducing territorial area needed by top level predators (see above), and this ultimately reduces biodiversity, which reduces genetic information, a resource required for medicine, material science, engineering, computer science, etc.

Edge effects are a direct result of ecosystem fracturing, which will be defined and discussed. There is a whole cascade of effects and interrelated issues that apply here. They are:

- The importance of wildlife corridors
- The dangers of ignorance
- Exploitation via corporations
- Lack of regulation
- Solutions via private enterprise
- Habitat loss
- Information loss
- Bioproductivity loss
- Natural capital
- Water quality
- Trophic cascades
- Policies

The list goes on. And on.

The whole substrate upon which humanity, society, and life depend on begin in the soil and water (essentially our planet), as nourished by the incoming sunlight from above.

Here's a thought for you: the very complex systems which naturally occur within the soil and above the soil define everything we have to support ourselves and they define everything we have available to educate ourselves (outside cosmology and related fields). There is more going on here than you think. Humanity thus far has been built from those systems, but humanity itself is also depleting, fracturing (and thus destroying) the very systems which allowed it to come this far.

Edge effects: What are they? Imagine a parcel of land that is fairly large and of a particular shape, mostly undisturbed. Let's say it's unspoiled rainforest. We'll begin with a circle 100 miles in diameter.

The circle: A circle 100 miles in diameter has an edge that is 314 miles long. It's area is a little more than 7,500 miles. The ratio of area/edge is 7,500/314 which equals about 24.

The fractal shape: A fractal shape with an area of 7,500 miles but with a ragged edge that is 1,000 miles long has a ratio of area/edge of 7,500/1,000 which equals 7.5.

Among the two shapes described above, each say being a rainforest ecosystem, the circle will generally be healthier and more viable. What does this mean? The circle, will in general, be richer in all of the following:

- Number of species
- Lower extinction rate
- More nutrients within the soil
- Lesser vulnerability to drought, heat, cold, etc.
- More information, complexity and potential knowledge to be discovered within
- Greater productivity within: (i.e ability to nourish, support and grow)
- Ability to support larger fauna

A circle was used above as an example. One could just as easily substitute a square instead and get similar results. Therefore, consider a square 100 miles on a side. It has a ratio of area/edge of 10,000/400 which equals 25.

Assuming that square contains rainforest (but it could just as easily be another type of ecosystem), let's now fracture it. We'll turn it into a checkerboard of 64 black and white squares. Black are rainforest squares. White are squares burned to remove the trees, and then tilled for agriculture.

Our total area of rainforest within the checkerboard is now half what it was. The original square contained 10,000 square miles of rainforest. It now contains 5,000 square miles of rainforest. But look at the change in rainforest edges. The original square had only 400 miles of rainforest edge. The checkerboard has 1,600 miles of rainforest edge.

And so we can get a sense of the difference between these two extents of land. Recall that the unspoiled square had 10,000 square miles of rainforest and total edges measuring 400 miles with a ratio of 25. Look at the ratio of the fractured checkerboard to get a sense of how less rich its potential is. It's ratio is 5,000/1,600 which equals 3.125.

Compare the two numbers: 25 vs. 3.125.

What are some cases which cause edge effects?

Repurposing of land: Examples include agriculture, urban and suburban sprawl, etc.

Clearcutting: Clearcutting by the timber industry creates edge effects. Make no mistake about it - the ecosystem has been changed, and replanting of trees will not revert the area back to the original ecosystem in a period equal to the time it takes for the newly planted trees to mature. The original forest was an old growth forest, and when the newly planted trees finally mature, the resulting forest will be a secondary growth forest, which does not provide the same environment as the original old growth forest.

Roads: Going back to the circle example, if a road is placed through the center, then an edge effect is created. Depending on the type of road and how busy it is, the effect is dramatic. Essentially, you end up with two areas, each half the area of the original circle, and each area having an edge length not much less than the original circle. This is one of the reasons (among many) why there is such opposition to the idea of drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. It's not just the idea of potential damage from oil spills (which is real), but the road systems which would need to be built to access the enterprise.

Fences: Land left in its natural state, but fenced, also creates an edge effect. A very damaging example would be the fence proposed along the U.S./Mexico border by certain politicians.

That's a start. Let me know when you want more, as there is plenty more...
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August 07, 2013, 05:41:01 PM
 #87

But your examples had to do with the law being based on morals.  Huh You said "If 51% of people agree with slavery, does that make it ok?" You implied that slavery is wrong. You're saying that we should follow your morals regardless of what the majority thinks.

No, my examples were based on a certain fundamental right called the non-aggression principle (Google it). You can call that a moral if you wish, but I find it better to distinguish morals as the fleeting whims and superstitions of society at a particular moment in time. I believe that certain things can be held as self-evident, and shouldn't change.

So in all of this, my belief in the non-aggression principle is the only 'opinion' I'll concede. Everything else follows.

Pragmatically, there is nothing wrong with slavery. So logically, if the majority of people believe in it it should be legal.

When did pragmatism come into the question? Ouch. *gets up off that slippery slope*

You, however, think that laws should be based on subjective opinions.

No, they should be based on the non-aggression principle. Support in that is the only opinion. From there everything is logical and consistent.

You think that homosexuals should be allowed to marry just because you think it should be so.

I think two adults should be able to enter into whatever mutually-agreed contract they please, and call it marriage. That's their right. Can they go into a church and demand to be married there? No, that's the church's right to refuse. Their property, their rules.

You also think slavery should be illegal, because that's your opinion. You don't care what other people think.

To support slavery, you either must think the non-aggression principle is void, or that the slaves are sub-human, so it doesn't apply to them. We can objectively confirm what is human and what is not, so assuming one supports the non-aggression principle, one cannot logically support slavery.

I, on the other hand, believe that laws should be chosen by the majority- whether I agree with it or not. I do not necessarily want people to pick the pragmatic option all of the time. Sometimes, "subjective" views, such as with slavery, must be taken.

This inevitably leads to the oppression of minorities, which by the non-aggression principle is wrong.

Quote
The hypocrisy is driving me crazy. If laws are based on "fairness", then majority should rule.

Does not follow at all. If 51% vote for law X and benefit from at the expense of 49%, that is the very definition of unfair.

Quote

Ironically, you mention "natural rights". Protip: You have no rights. Humans are the only animals who write up constitutions. Whatever you think is your "right" is subjective. Objectively, you have no rights. You are at the mercy of others. Murder, rape, theft, and other "crimes" have no real method of enforcement. The government may make murder illegal, but they can't bring you back to life if you're killed. Your "rights" are an agreement by the majority. There are some horrible people that would gladly murder or rape without consequences, but we do not give them that "right" because it is the subjective view of the majority.


Protip: humans have rights precisely because we have the intellectual capacity to make it so.

You fail to make the distinction between positive and negative rights - positive being the right 'to' something. All your examples are positive rights, which don't follow from the non-aggression principle. Negative rights, the right 'to not be' murdered, etc, do follow.
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August 07, 2013, 06:01:01 PM
 #88

FirstAscent, thanks for adding that, though I already read it earlier.

We don't disagree on the importance of natural ecosystems - we just disagree on the best way to protect them, taking into account the human factors...

It may be that central planning is the best way to solve this particular issue (I'm not convinced it is), but even then, you're discounting the whole host of other issues that come with it; to name a few:

- states who flat out ignore the rules (tragedy of the commons)
- wars
- oppression of minorities
- disincentives of innovation, subsidies for the status-quo
- financial system dependent on perpetual growth
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August 07, 2013, 06:17:04 PM
 #89

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No, my examples were based on a certain fundamental right called the non-aggression principle (Google it). You can call that a moral if you wish, but I find it better to distinguish morals as the fleeting whims and superstitions of society at a particular moment in time. I believe that certain things can be held as self-evident, and shouldn't change.

So in all of this, my belief in the non-aggression principle is the only 'opinion' I'll concede. Everything else follows.

Don't put opinion in quotation marks. That is your opinion, and it seems to form the basis for your ideas. I did not argue against subjectivity. You did. So don't bring up opinions unless you're going to change your views. Your "opinions", or morals, are just as "fleeting" as anyone else's.

Quote
When did pragmatism come into the question? Ouch. *gets up off that slippery slope*

You brought up subjectivity. Pragmatism, or objectivity, is the opposite.

If you're against subjective laws I'd assume you'd support objective laws. Or do you just like arguing?

Quote
No, they should be based on the non-aggression principle. Support in that is the only opinion. From there everything is logical and consistent.

The non-aggression principle is illogical in itself. It is the epitome of subjectivity. It says that regardless of the consequences, there should not be violence. It says that violence cannot be justified, which is a subjective, and opinionated view.

Quote
I think two adults should be able to enter into whatever mutually-agreed contract they please, and call it marriage. That's their right. Can they go into a church and demand to be married there? No, that's the church's right to refuse. Their property, their rules.

So if a country votes to ban homosexuality, that's ok? Their country, their rules.

Quote
To support slavery, you either must think the non-aggression principle is void, or that the slaves are sub-human, so it doesn't apply to them. We can objectively confirm what is human and what is not, so assuming one supports the non-aggression principle, one cannot logically support slavery.

Yes, because of your belief slavery is not supportable. I believe that slavery is bad too, because of my own principles. Both of our opinions are subjective, regardless of what you call it.

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This inevitably leads to the oppression of minorities, which by the non-aggression principle is wrong.

Cool, your opinion says it's wrong. Mine does too, what's the point?

Quote
Does not follow at all. If 51% vote for law X and benefit from at the expense of 49%, that is the very definition of unfair.

Actually, merriam-webster says that the definition is "marked by impartiality and honesty" Impartiality would imply not taking a side. If you support the 51%, you are not impartial. If you support the 49% you are not impartial. No law will ever be "fair" unless everyone agrees with it, and no one ever will. So why support the minority? You seem to assume that the minority is being oppressed always, and that's why you support them. Do Apartheidists deserve their ideas to be put into place?

Quote
Protip: humans have rights precisely because we have the intellectual capacity to make it so.

Nope, we do not have any "natural rights".

Let's use an example: You'd say that freedom of speech is a right, I'm guessing (even if you don't pick some right you do believe in). But what about countries with no freedom of speech. Are they subhuman? Do they not have the intellectual capacity to have these so called "natural" rights? Actually, they're one step ahead of you in that they know that rights are subjective. They are invented. You have no natural rights. Your rights are "guaranteed" by the state, which uses violence to enforce them. Kind of ironic seeing as you're against aggression. The state may enforce freedom of speech or they may enforce the lack thereof.

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You fail to make the distinction between positive and negative rights - positive being the right 'to' something. All your examples are positive rights, which don't follow from the non-aggression principle. Negative rights, the right 'to not be' murdered, etc, do follow.

 Roll Eyes Ok. Fine, then let's replace the right to not be murdered with the right to murder. And how do "negative"or "positive"  rights not follow your principle.

Gays have the right to marry (no threat of violence or imprisonment): Positive right, follows principle
Gays cannot marry (no threat of violence or imprisonment): Negative right, follows principle.
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August 07, 2013, 06:56:08 PM
 #90

Thread overload condition detected.  Please use overflow space to ensure continuity.

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August 07, 2013, 07:58:55 PM
 #91

I'm hardly being pedantic, considering that homosexuality is still outlawed in many parts of the world. Add to that women's rights, political oppression... and you see why 'values' are a sticky subject.

In my opinion, laws shouldn't be based on any particular system of values, other than what is equitable between the parties at hand. Of course you can call that a value system in itself (nice circular argument), but I believe it's the only one which is consistent and fair.

How is that a circular argument? If you think that what you are describing—opposition to political oppression, sticking up for human rights, desire for fair treatment under the law, respect for privacy and human dignity, and belief in an individual's rights to behave in ways other members of society disapprove of so long as they do not harm anyone—are not values, then we have to have a conversation about definitions of words.

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August 07, 2013, 08:22:30 PM
Last edit: August 07, 2013, 08:44:18 PM by bitlancr
 #92

J603, there's too many fallacious arguments in your reply. To summarise, is it fair to say you don't support the non-aggression principle? That is, you believe unprovoked aggression is warranted in certain circumstances?

smscotten, the difference is all these values derive from one core principle - non aggression - and it's not a wishy-washy principle like "we're all in it together" or "power to the people," it's a well defined, logically sound principle. Try it: think of any of the rights that we take for granted today, and see how it is derived from the non-aggression principle.

I challenge you to think of a legal basis that is fairer - and by fair I mean doesn't give special advantage to any one person over another - than the non-aggression principle.
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August 07, 2013, 08:40:03 PM
 #93

In a totally socialist state, every business, every activity would be owned and controlled by government. I don't think that has ever happened anywhere, but you don't have to go very far down that road before things get very unpleasant.

Soviet Union. Government owned all land, business, activity, and property. Setting up your own business, and using it to make a profit, no matter how small, was illegal and has landed people in jail.
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August 07, 2013, 08:55:48 PM
 #94

And the closest thing I've found is that socialism is the ownership by the people of the means of production. In practice that ends up meaning ownership by the government.
In what geographical location of this planet is "the government" = "the people"?

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August 07, 2013, 09:14:24 PM
 #95

smscotten, the difference is all these values derive from one core principle - non aggression - and it's not a wishy-washy principle like "we're all in it together" or "power to the people," it's a well defined, logically sound principle. Try it: think of any of the rights that we take for granted today, and see how it is derived from the non-aggression principle.

I challenge you to think of a legal basis that is fairer - and by fair I doesn't give special advantage to any one person over another - than the non-aggression principle.

I'm not arguing against the non-aggression principle. I'm arguing against one person being able to dictate that the non-aggression principle—or any other principle—be enshrined in law. Saying that a principle is self-evident is one thing; all that really means is that it is a matter of faith and which cannot be proven, but we believe it so we call it axiomatic. Saying that we hold this truth to be self-evident is another thing. That is stating that the group has come to consensus about the axiomatic nature of that principle.

If only 1% of the people believe in the non-aggression principle, it doesn't matter how fervently I desire it. It won't and should not be enshrined into law. Not until after you and I can educate everyone else as to why it should be. I believe that the necessity of substantial consensus about the laws is a higher principle than the non-aggression principle. But even if I didn't, if the vast majority of people don't believe in the non-aggression principle, how will you ever get them to follow it without employing aggression on a vast scale?

I hold this truth to be self-evident, but will freely admit that there is some circular logic here: the more widely accepted a value is, the more likely it is that it will be a good value, and that likelihood increases over time. Majorities on specific issues, over time, are diminished if those opinions on those specific issues are in conflict with more fundamental widely-held beliefs. Therefore a legal system which slowly and with some difficulty shapes itself to the value of the society it serves will move, however slowly, haltingly, and with occasional setbacks, toward the greatest good.

One can perhaps take a shortcut to a greater good by decree, but it's difficult to get that to happen without force, and the force required to do that makes that greater good at best fragile and more likely corrupted from the core and therefore not a greater good.

I will say this: that I think I have illustrated that at least practically (and perhaps more than practically) the principle of consensus and the principle of non-aggression are one and the same. Because the only way to get something adopted without aggression is consensus.

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August 07, 2013, 09:16:27 PM
 #96

And the closest thing I've found is that socialism is the ownership by the people of the means of production. In practice that ends up meaning ownership by the government.
In what geographical location of this planet is "the government" = "the people"?

Every location. A populace that does not consent to be governed has the option to violently overthrow their government.

…which addresses your point about as well as your post addressed mine. I did use the words "in practice."

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August 07, 2013, 10:25:35 PM
 #97

I'm not arguing against the non-aggression principle. I'm arguing against one person being able to dictate that the non-aggression principle—or any other principle—be enshrined in law. Saying that a principle is self-evident is one thing; all that really means is that it is a matter of faith and which cannot be proven, but we believe it so we call it axiomatic. Saying that we hold this truth to be self-evident is another thing. That is stating that the group has come to consensus about the axiomatic nature of that principle.

If only 1% of the people believe in the non-aggression principle, it doesn't matter how fervently I desire it. It won't and should not be enshrined into law. Not until after you and I can educate everyone else as to why it should be. I believe that the necessity of substantial consensus about the laws is a higher principle than the non-aggression principle. But even if I didn't, if the vast majority of people don't believe in the non-aggression principle, how will you ever get them to follow it without employing aggression on a vast scale?


All the NAP is saying is that no-one has a right to order anyone else around or coerce anyone into doing something they don't want to do.  Or rob someone.  Murder them.  etc

These are all self-evident truths.  If you think you can prove otherwise then go ahead.   The only reason people think otherwise is because of historical tradition.  But when you examine the evidence of these historical traditions, like the constitution for example, you find they are as false as most other traditions are, such as slavery.

imo, it is reckless to go around saying that if everyone thinks something therefore it is as good as being true.  Good men and women of any age need to stand up for the truth and give no excuses.  It's the only thing ultimately that has advanced the well-being of humanity as a whole.  Freedom and truth provides people with opportunity.   Bad and untrue traditions bind our hands and hold back progress.
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August 07, 2013, 10:51:42 PM
 #98

And the closest thing I've found is that socialism is the ownership by the people of the means of production. In practice that ends up meaning ownership by the government.
In what geographical location of this planet is "the government" = "the people"?
Every location. A populace that does not consent to be governed has the option to violently overthrow their government.
…which addresses your point about as well as your post addressed mine. I did use the words "in practice."
I do not feel qualified to address your entire posts yet, I am still working to understand them.  You seem to have a different experience of the world, which may mean that we live in different places or simply have a different perspective, or different definitions.

For example, in practice, there are many levels of government in most geographies globally.  Often the government in control of some asset "means of production" is not the same government as that which is representing the local population.  So in practice, only very very small countries would come close to your definition for most of the assets.

In practice, popular revolutions are also not the best way to achieve civic representation any more than "the government" is "the people" anywhere on the planet.

At best "the government" is a very small subsection of "the people" and have convinced "the people" that they are sufficiently responsive to "the people" that those of "the people" that could possibly have any hope of successfully violent overthrow of "the government" if they wanted to do so, have other things to do instead that keep them busy.  That is most of the planet's geography currently.

Fundamentally, also consider whether advocating civil war as the backstop of justifiable authority is best way to achieve your desired levels of socialism?  The USA, in practice, has achieved very high level of Marxism through democratic incrementalism with relatively few civil wars.  We also get a lot of it through selling fear to our populace and terrorizing ourselves.  It also may not be the best method but seems effective for creating socialism in a population that rhetorically tends to demonize the notion.

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August 07, 2013, 11:43:40 PM
 #99

And the closest thing I've found is that socialism is the ownership by the people of the means of production. In practice that ends up meaning ownership by the government.
In what geographical location of this planet is "the government" = "the people"?
Every location. A populace that does not consent to be governed has the option to violently overthrow their government.
…which addresses your point about as well as your post addressed mine. I did use the words "in practice."
I do not feel qualified to address your entire posts yet, I am still working to understand them.  You seem to have a different experience of the world, which may mean that we live in different places or simply have a different perspective, or different definitions.

I didn't mean very much by that, so don't worry if it didn't make sense.

The government does not equal the people. But in my opinion, acting as a proxy for the people is the only possible legitimate role of government. Furthermore, even uses of government I do not consider legitimate are justified by the proponents of those uses as being the will or mandate of the people, even (or especially) if those claims are dubious.

All I meant originally is that in practice when socialism is attempted it is usually done by government acting (whether legitimately or not) as a proxy for the people.

So, I was a bit annoyed when I thought you were trying to invalidate my attempt to form a working definition by bringing up an issue I think is valid but unrelated to the definition. I snarked back with a rather lame attempt to reduce your point to absurdity. It was a heat of the moment thing and ought not be taken seriously. I apologize.

I agree with you about the issues you responded with.

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August 08, 2013, 12:07:31 AM
 #100

No law will ever be "fair" unless everyone agrees with it, and no one ever will.

Might there be an example of a law that everyone in a geography agrees with?  (It looked like the assertion being made was that everyone agrees with the non-aggression principle.)  Given a sufficiently small geography, it is certain that there will be 100% agreement on some laws.

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