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Author Topic: U.S. Judge determines bitcoin is a currency  (Read 6089 times)
DannyHamilton (OP)
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August 11, 2013, 02:24:51 PM
 #61

gold is different it has monetary value bitcoin does not, our money is not backed by gold anymore so it is kind of like bitcoin its not backed by anything.

You are mistaken.  Bitcoin has monetary value.  And gold is not backed by anything.
getrichquack
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August 11, 2013, 03:02:27 PM
 #62



1. Trendon Shavers isn't going to jail at all in this proceeding, this is a civil action only.

2. Bitcoin being defined as "currency" by a Federal Judge is actually bad as it opens Bitcoin up to a whole host of US laws designed to prevent people from creating their own currency. Can you say "Liberty Dollar".


Just my .02 btc,


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ummmm YEP!!

mrdavis
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August 11, 2013, 04:02:24 PM
 #63

And gold is not backed by anything.

I don't think he meant to, but that's pretty much what he said:

[Gold] has monetary value
= Gold is backed by money

our money... its not backed by anything.

So... Gold is backed by money which is backed by nothing.

Though, really there are properties of bitcoin, gold, money, plastic shit from Walmart that make them desirable to have. That desire (demand) weighed with how much of it there is (supply) gives it it's value. A belief that the balance between supply and demand will remain steady or at least predictable satisfies much of the properties (such as store of value) needed to be useful as a currency.

kelsey
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August 13, 2013, 10:55:48 AM
 #64

The same does not apply to gold because gold cannot be spent as a day to day currency as it is not accepted anywhere, because raw gold is unsuitable to be a currency in this age. Bitcoin however can already be used to purchase goods and services from a growing list of vendors. So yes, Bitcoin is currency. Gold is a store of wealth and speculative tool.

Sorry but I am pretty sure Gold would be accepted by a fuck load more people on the planet in exchange for goods and services then bitcoin ever would.

Bitcoins a speculative tool and almost completely useless as a legit currency.
kelsey
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August 13, 2013, 11:00:00 AM
 #65



1. Trendon Shavers isn't going to jail at all in this proceeding, this is a civil action only.

2. Bitcoin being defined as "currency" by a Federal Judge is actually bad as it opens Bitcoin up to a whole host of US laws designed to prevent people from creating their own currency. Can you say "Liberty Dollar".


Just my .02 btc,


~BCX~



ummmm YEP!!

pretty sure the charges that stuck with the liberty dollar had nothing to do with creating your own currency, but more to do with replicating a legal currency, hence now the new liberty dollar (without in god we trust).

anyway this is all US centered bs.....there's a few billion other people outside the US who don't give a flying fuck about US judges or congress or whatever
DannyHamilton (OP)
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August 13, 2013, 12:09:18 PM
 #66

Sorry but I am pretty sure Gold would be accepted by a fuck load more people on the planet in exchange for goods and services then bitcoin ever would.

Bitcoins a speculative tool and almost completely useless as a legit currency.

You are very shortsighted.  I'm not necessarily saying that bitcoin will be accepted "by a fuck load more people on the planet in exchange for goods and services", but I see that as one potential outcome.

Gold on the other hand is a speculative tool and almost completely useless as a internet age currency.
DannyHamilton (OP)
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August 13, 2013, 12:14:24 PM
 #67

- snip -
anyway this is all US centered bs.....there's a few billion other people outside the US who don't give a flying fuck about US judges or congress or whatever

Obviously.  And this thread isn't intended to discuss matters that are important to those few billion people.  In case you couldn't tell, this thread is intended to discuss issues that are important to the 320 million or so that are in the U.S. (as well as the many others who buy products and/or services from those in the U.S., sell products and/or services to those in the U.S., or otherwise engage in transactions with those under U.S. jurisdiction).
kelsey
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August 13, 2013, 01:27:10 PM
 #68

Sorry but I am pretty sure Gold would be accepted by a fuck load more people on the planet in exchange for goods and services then bitcoin ever would.

Bitcoins a speculative tool and almost completely useless as a legit currency.

You are very shortsighted.  I'm not necessarily saying that bitcoin will be accepted "by a fuck load more people on the planet in exchange for goods and services", but I see that as one potential outcome.

Gold on the other hand is a speculative tool and almost completely useless as a internet age currency.

Again btc is purely a speculative tool, most users only value it based on what its worth in USD, and its success is measured by most against this value.
As a genuine currency its almost completely useless. A currency kinda needs to be stable to be usable but thats lost on so many diehard btc fanbois.
Mostly all the uses as a currency a pretty much token efforts to say "see its a currency".

faiza1990
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August 17, 2013, 03:02:47 PM
 #69

at least someone realize fact and going with truth

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November 09, 2013, 02:15:21 PM
 #70

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Bitcoin is a form of currency because it can be used to purchase goods or services and exchanged for more traditional forms of money
Bullshit, the same apply to gold but gold IS NOT money

http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2011/07/13/bernanke-fights-ron-paul-in-congress-golds-not-money/

And since bitcoin is, in my opinion, digital gold, i say that it is not money.

Gabi, I think you know already that when Ben Bernanke told Congress gold was not money, he was widely considered to be equivocating in order to cover for the fraud in which his organization is involved.  That's the likely reason Ron Paul asked the question.  It was a trap.

One of the major founders of the Federal Reserve, JP Morgan, after all, famously said that "Money is gold and nothing else."  The FED has been considered to be in default, by many, since the 70s when they de-monetized gold.

People, like the judge in this case, (and you as well) tend to use "money" and "currency" interchangeably, while the technical definitions are quite different.  In my opinion, Ben Bernanke was trying to "play dumb" by telling Congress that gold was not currency, that it was an "asset" instead, when he knew full well that this was not the question that was asked.

It sounds as though Mr. Shavers tried something similar, by arguing that Bitcoin was not currency, when in fact the issue at hand is simply whether Bitcoin has value.  And when the judge responded by saying that Bitcoin is in fact currency, he simply meant that it has value and therefore can be the subject of legitimate contract disputes or, in this case, alleged fraud.

Of course it's hard to know the exact context without a transcript or copy of the decision.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
philip2000uk
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November 09, 2013, 02:27:43 PM
 #71

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Bitcoin is a form of currency because it can be used to purchase goods or services and exchanged for more traditional forms of money
Bullshit, the same apply to gold but gold IS NOT money

http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2011/07/13/bernanke-fights-ron-paul-in-congress-golds-not-money/

And since bitcoin is, in my opinion, digital gold, i say that it is not money.

You can say what you want, but apparently the U.S. court has decided to define bitcoin with the label of "currency" (which probably has more to do with the ineptitude of Mr. Shaver's legal team than with the judge's deep understanding of the technical issues behind defining bitcoin).

The fact that Mr. Bernanke chooses to state that gold is not "money" has very little to do with whether the U.S. courts would consider gold to be a "currency".

Can you find me a court case where gold was determined not to meet the requirements of being a currency?

As much as I'd like to see Mr. Shavers spend time in jail for his crimes, I really want him to have the best legal team possible.  This case is likely to set a lot of precedents for bitcoin, and if his legal team isn't top notch, many of those precedents are likely to be detrimental to bitcoin in the long term.
Edit: it's ok found it a few posts down
who's mr shavers? all google gave me was mach 3's (not really mach 3's but lots of hairdressers)

Leather girls identity film2 on youtube and website link i accept bitcoin Smiley
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November 09, 2013, 06:24:07 PM
 #72

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Bitcoin is a form of currency because it can be used to purchase goods or services and exchanged for more traditional forms of money
Bullshit, the same apply to gold but gold IS NOT money

http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2011/07/13/bernanke-fights-ron-paul-in-congress-golds-not-money/

And since bitcoin is, in my opinion, digital gold, i say that it is not money.

You can say what you want, but apparently the U.S. court has decided to define bitcoin with the label of "currency" (which probably has more to do with the ineptitude of Mr. Shaver's legal team than with the judge's deep understanding of the technical issues behind defining bitcoin).

The fact that Mr. Bernanke chooses to state that gold is not "money" has very little to do with whether the U.S. courts would consider gold to be a "currency".

Can you find me a court case where gold was determined not to meet the requirements of being a currency?

As much as I'd like to see Mr. Shavers spend time in jail for his crimes, I really want him to have the best legal team possible.  This case is likely to set a lot of precedents for bitcoin, and if his legal team isn't top notch, many of those precedents are likely to be detrimental to bitcoin in the long term.
Edit: it's ok found it a few posts down
who's mr shavers? all google gave me was mach 3's (not really mach 3's but lots of hairdressers)
.

Dude search this forum. Trendon Shavers AKA pirateat40 is an epic component of bitcoin history. He was the Bernie Madoff of bitcoin.
theonewhowaskazu
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November 09, 2013, 07:12:33 PM
 #73

Now my question is: is gold considered "currency" for USA?

Create a gold based Ponzi scheme and I guess we'll find out.
 Grin

Wasn't that already done about a billion times with E-gold? Wasn't 12dailypro & all that jazz all using E-gold, for at least a period? Noteably, the person who started 12dailypro I believe still has faced no persecution (although she still might in the future), although the people that ran E-gold (and committed no real crimes, other than the BS that is money laundering), have.

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