Bitcoinorama: Shill for KNC? Hardware is too full of sock puppets

[Bitcoinorama]

KS, just give it up, I'm not interested. You're on ignore.

There's just no need for you anymore. The flaw in your plan to disprove the legitimacy of KnC was always going to be that they were legitimate.

Countering your continuous barrage of nonsensical statements, and false claims just strengthened their position, as they always did exist, and have played by the rules, legally, whilst giving people what potentially maybe the fairest deal so far; the foresight to create a machine that would behave competitively, at a future date, with secured payment choices, during an uncertain, and justly untrustworthy point in Bitcoin mining's history. If they succeed.

I just got fed up of scams and bum deals and pushed for a solid proposal that kept people's funds safe, yet allowed an experienced IC design team a shot at what we all want, an end to the BS scams and delays. I never forced anyone to do as I said, I just said what I was doing, and I'm nobody's fool, I shared what I thought was helpful throughout one of the most bizarre periods I've ever witnessed. There's a lot of jealousy and negativity on this forum, but not from me, and I don't care to experience it either.

I hope both of our orders arrive on time, but I have no interest in communicating with an angry little man who just won't quit.

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[Ytterbium]

First you say it's fun watching him squirm, now you say you've got no interest and he's on ignore.

WHICH IS IT BITCOINORAMA!?   WHICH IS IT!?

[KS]

(...)

TL;DR. (Wall-o-words'o-avoiding-to-answer.)

Substantiate. Put actual quotes, discuss.

[KS]

I'll just leave this here for you to ponder:

While it is true that a B2B contract may not take away all of the consumer protection that would apply to a B2C contract, it does take away considerable portions of it, such as the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which do not apply to B2B contracts. The Distance Selling Regulations would also not apply.
And, in general, when interpreting B2B contracts, courts will take the view that each side has received appropriate advice, and negotiated a contract that matches their wishes, while with a standard fixed B2C contract that the consumer does not have the opportunity to negotiate, they will recognise the imbalance of arms, and construe all terms in a way that favours the consumer.

While it is true that a B2B contract may not take away all of the consumer protection that would apply to a B2C contract, it does take away considerable portions of it, such as the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which do not apply to B2B contracts. The Distance Selling Regulations would also not apply.
And, in general, when interpreting B2B contracts, courts will take the view that each side has received appropriate advice, and negotiated a contract that matches their wishes, while with a standard fixed B2C contract that the consumer does not have the opportunity to negotiate, they will recognise the imbalance of arms, and construe all terms in a way that favours the consumer.

Thank-you Murray.

Business to business sales, are consumer rights applicable? (Note: this is UK focused)

In short, yes, unless the company you are dealing with has specifically underwritten terms in their Terms and Conditions negating aspects of your consumer rights. This is known as an exclusion clause, and is yet another reason why Terms and Conditions should always be read and thoroughly discussed in your respective thread.

How do you know if the contract (business to business) takes away your statutory rights?

If the person who sold you the goods or services has taken away your statutory rights, there should be something in your contract about this. For example, it might say  the seller isn't responsible for goods that are unsatisfactory, don't match their description or aren't fit for purpose. Or it might say that the seller isn't responsible for any loss you've suffered because of their lack of care or skill. This type of content in a contract is called an exclusion clause.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_problems_with_business_to_business_services_e/consumer_protection_for_businesses.htm

In particular, sections 10 and 11 of the Distance Selling Regulations, which would otherwise have given an absolute right to cancel, will not apply to a pre-order written as a B2B contract rather than a B2C one. In the particular field of Bitcoin ASIC miner pre-orders, I think that is quite a significant loss!

Edit: If by repeating that quote, you intend to imply that there is no loss of protection, you are simply wrong.

From the Distance Selling Regulations:

“consumer” means any natural person who, in contracts to which these Regulations apply, is acting for purposes which are outside his business;
[...]
Right to cancel
10.—(1) Subject to regulation 13, if within the cancellation period set out in regulations 11 and 12, the consumer gives a notice of cancellation to the supplier, or any other person previously notified by the supplier to the consumer as a person to whom notice of cancellation may be given, the notice of cancellation shall operate to cancel the contract.
(2) Except as otherwise provided by these Regulations, the effect of a notice of cancellation is that the contract shall be treated as if it had not been made.

This simply does not apply to businesses.

Similarly for the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations:

What terms are not covered?

Most standard terms are covered by the UTCCRs. The exceptions are those:

    that reflect provisions which by law have to be included in contracts
    that have been individually negotiated
    in contracts between businesses
    in contracts between private individuals
    in certain contracts that people do not make as consumers – for example, relating to employment or setting up a business
    in contracts entered into before 1995.

And, from the OFTs guidance on the UTCCR:

The fact that certain customers – even a majority – are not consumers does not justify exclusion of liability that could affect consumers. However, there is no objection under the Regulations to terms which cannot affect consumers, for example those which exclude liability for business losses, or losses to business customers.

[Bitcoinorama]

Lol, and the rest, it's a shame you don't actually do any research KS, you really should click that Citizen's Advice Bureau link. Never have I said that consumer rights are complete when dealing with a business sale, but am I protected, sure;

Extra protection for sole traders

If you're a sole trader and you paid by credit, you may be able to make a claim against the credit company if things go wrong. Only ordinary consumers and sole traders have this right – it doesn't apply to other types of business trader.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_problems_with_business_to_business_services_e/consumer_protection_for_businesses.htm

Again, noone is saying that you have no protection with a B2B contract.
But you do not have the same level of protection that you would with a B2C contract. You just don't. The Distance Selling Regulations, which would otherwise provide a complete right to a refund, do not apply.

True and that will effect those that have paid with BTC and wire transfers.

Or by credit card, or by debit card, or by cash, or any other method.
Edit: You have protection from your credit card company if you can prove that the [supplier] company has failed to live up to the contract. But you do not have the benefit of consumer protection when deciding whether they have lived up to the contract or not. You don't have a right to cancel, so they can't have failed to provide you that right. You certainly aren't without rights, but you have fewer rights than you would have with a B2C contract.

Edit 2: In general, I am certainly in agreement that paying by credit card is by far the safest method of paying for goods. (Offtopic: But a very poor method for paying for ongoing services)

Again, noone is saying that you have no protection with a B2B contract.
But you do not have the same level of protection that you would with a B2C contract. You just don't. The Distance Selling Regulations, which would otherwise provide a complete right to a refund, do not apply.

True and that will effect those that have paid with BTC and wire transfers.

Or by credit card, or by debit card, or by cash, or any other method.

Unless you have called your card issuing bank, explained the circumstances and they have said they are content with offering you protection when making the purchase.

[KS]

Except that (now) your whole argument (which keeps changing) depends on whether the court will decide you're akin to a sole trader or not (which you still haven't proven).

Unless you ARE a registered "sole trader", in which case you're a business already, which makes your comment irrelevant since I'm asking the question wrt to the B2C nature of the trade when claiming to be a business to obtain business-only goods. (got that?)

So, in a B2B case, does a private person have B2C rights or B2B rights? (it's not a completely accurate description of the issue but maybe it's clearer for you).

https://www.gov.uk/set-up-sole-trader

[Bitcoinorama]

Except that (now) your whole argument (which keeps changing) depends on whether the court will decide you're akin to a sole trader or not (which you still haven't proven).

Unless you ARE a registered "sole trader", in which case you're a business already, which makes your comment irrelevant since I'm asking the question wrt to the B2C nature of the trade when claiming to be a business to obtain business-only goods. (got that?)

So, in a B2B case, does a private person have B2C rights or B2B rights? (it's not a completely accurate description of the issue but maybe it's clearer for you).

https://www.gov.uk/set-up-sole-trader

My argument has never changed. I brought up the sole trader aspect in the very beginning of the KnC thread.

It was you that brought up the consumer/business angle when I declared I was purchasing on ccard? Confused much?

If you register as a sole trader, you don't pay VAT. Why wouldn't you register as such?! Quite frankly the way mining is headed with respect to legislation it makes complete sense to.

You can also claim other business expenses, such electricity (yes cheaper electricity), associated hardware and products necessary for a business to function. In addition you host your machine at home you can claim some of your rent back, though for specifics you need to speak with an accountant. I'm not an accountant, nor am I a lawyer, never have I claimed to be. I do care about people getting ripped off and sharing information I have found. Always stated that. What's your excuse? You've no interest in helping others, just determined to have a petty fight as long as you can prove me wrong. It's pathetic.

You have a bee in your bonnet as you gave a lot of unsecured funds to Bitsyncom and are quite rightly upset.

Though several things strike me as weird;

You're so disposed to the intricacies of consumer protection and secured purchases, yet flouted all of that for your own purchase.

You've even consulted lawyers (if that's even true) on the legalities of making a purchase within a company you have no intention of buying from, yet seem blazé about your own predicament with Bisyncom. Would lawyers' advice there not be more imperative for your own circumstance and relevant and helpful to a wider disgruntled audience of the community on Bitcointalk?

You seem to forget your whole hearted efforts at trying to dismiss KnC as a scam from the start to protect your own interests. You tried you damned hardest to stop people from purchasing there and it's in the thread for all to see.

I don't care where people purchase from as long as they inform themselves to their best abilities and take responsibility for their own purchase, where possible I want to see respectable vendors value their customers, not aim for a one shot chance at making easy cash and disappearing.

The fact you dismiss the advice from the UK Citizen's Advice Beaureau, is quite frankly, laughable. Go away and concentrate on Bitsyncom and where the hell your thousands of dollars of chips are.

As I've said before I take no pleasure in seeing people suffer from foul play or those that have not received what they ordered. I do want people bulk chips to arrive as they have already paid for them. I already factored in them being present in the network prior to KnC being successful, if that will be the case. You take pleasure in other people's misery. You're a nasty piece of work KS.

[NoDisco]

that is just like asking> bitcoinrama, are you on knc's pay list?

They have asked me to work for them, which I have agreed to

Look. The rodent finally admitted he is a KNC shill. Just a few days before they are supposed to ship, as his PR shill job is done. Oh the integrity!

[Minor Miner]

the value of the hardware section of this forum is about as valuable as the conversations of "what do you think the price with be friday"

[Bitcoinorama]

In my own words; my response in that thread;

@NoDisco

They have asked me to work for them, which I have agreed to, if they prove a working product.

Gee, quoting complete sentences is really hard! I can understand that not everyone is capable of doing it, so here it is, extra for you. Now, have a bone and troll yourself.

And what does that mean? It means "I won't work for them if they are a con-job and run away with the money". Why? Because there won't be a company to work for! Typical shitcoinorama word play that means nothing.

what? Yes, if they turn out not not be able to deliver, something I cannot predict months ago with the risks I and anyone with any common sense would acknowledge back then, I won't be comfortable working for them. Likewise I won't be comfortable working for KnC within a paid capacity until they prove themselves, thus i am not, and have not been working for them. The only think you're demonstrating here is your inability to follow what my stance has always been. It's in the open day reports I wrote when visiting people I had never met before. It's why I have never advised anyone does anything, but their own research. I shared mine as part of an iterative process to work out who the f**k they are, and what the f** they are doing. Of course once someone proves they are capable won't you take their offer somewhat more seriously? is that not the entire point? I mean you think all those people sitting on the sidelines will create as much coin as those that pre-ordered. It's a risk/reward. I'm happy to risk some money I have saved, but I will think twice before relying on someone to pay me a wage/fee, or whatever I need to rely on for my livelihood. That's plain sensible. I'm happy to play with a few grand, but not relocate to another country and be stuck there if some form of catastrophic failure exists, and those pre-ordering that have done sufficient research have always known the inherent risks that exist with such short manufacturing times. Risks exists, i've never shied away from any of that when it came to making a purchase. All i've exer done is uncovered who they are, what they are about, what they propose, the problems that may occur and the safest route to overcom them with respect to KnC and elsewhere. It's not hard to expose risk elsewhere, because the rest is compounded with marketing hype that defies the laws of physics. I still don't understand your problem NoDisco, you came to me and asked for some genuine advice via PM, which I gave you, you even offered to buy me a coffee in East London as thanks, then turned nasty for no reason, and clearly still harbour that hatred. life's too short dude, relax. I haven't harmed you, and I have no beef, so I'm not sure what the deal is here. I've been nothing, but totally honest on this forum the entire time. Fact. Did I say KnC were real and capable? yep. Have they proven that over time? yep. I prevented more people from getting ripped off, then anything else, which is I wanted to achieve. Again, i'm not sure where the animosity stems from. I have all your PMs where I gave you reasoned answers to non KnC product related concerns, all of which you were happy with. At somepoint though clearly you've taken something very personal.

[NoDisco]

that is just like asking> bitcoinrama, are you on knc's pay list?

They have asked me to work for them, which I have agreed to

Look. The rodent finally admitted he is a KNC shill. Just a few days before they are supposed to ship, as his PR shill job is done. Oh the integrity!

For integrity purposes, I'll post the full quote.

Nope, and I never have been, and I've stated this numerous times. They have asked me to work for them, which I have agreed to, if they prove a working product. Integrity wise I will not prior, and neither have I ever told anyone to purchase from them, or anyone else until such time as they have a working product, at which point i'd be a fool not to.

So technically he is still not working for KnC but yes, please by all means resurrect this useless thread.

If it's useless, why do you feel the need to reply?

I never said he was already on the KNC payroll, but as I said in the other thread, I would not be surprised if he is in line for a free miner or two for this PR/marketing efforts. Payment in kind - you understand? He is totally impartial with a job offer on the table? Right. I'll believe that. He hasn't done a single thing to "encourage" people to buy from KNC. Right. I'll buy that too.

I even sent him a few private messages (you can see them above - oh the integrity!) when I joined the forum, as he seemed to be the go-to guy when it came to KNC. But yeah, he hasn't influenced anyone. I'll buy that.

[bbxx]

His forum is infested with shills and paid trolls.

....rama, ..cake etc

There are also shill=>hater conversions

.....erupter, ...gie

Lol

[Bitcoinorama]

that is just like asking> bitcoinrama, are you on knc's pay list?

They have asked me to work for them, which I have agreed to

Look. The rodent finally admitted he is a KNC shill. Just a few days before they are supposed to ship, as his PR shill job is done. Oh the integrity!

For integrity purposes, I'll post the full quote.

Nope, and I never have been, and I've stated this numerous times. They have asked me to work for them, which I have agreed to, if they prove a working product. Integrity wise I will not prior, and neither have I ever told anyone to purchase from them, or anyone else until such time as they have a working product, at which point i'd be a fool not to.

So technically he is still not working for KnC but yes, please by all means resurrect this useless thread.

If it's useless, why do you feel the need to reply?

I never said he was already on the KNC payroll, but as I said in the other thread, I would not be surprised if he is in line for a free miner or two for this PR/marketing efforts. Payment in kind - you understand? He is totally impartial with a job offer on the table? Right. I'll believe that. He hasn't done a single thing to "encourage" people to buy from KNC. Right. I'll buy that too.

I even sent him a few private messages (you can see them above - oh the integrity!) when I joined the forum, as he seemed to be the go-to guy when it came to KNC. But yeah, he hasn't influenced anyone. I'll buy that.

Sorry had to show the PMs as you were behaving totally out of line. I had to show you asked me reasonable questions, and I gave you sincere answers. That I had shown no ill favour, and provided no justifiable reason behind your current nastiness directed towards me. For the little I knew of you, you're behaving out of character for someone I had just courteously helped for no reason other than kindness. I'm still utterly confused and angered you're behaving this way hen I took the time, my time to respond. Have KnC offered anything under the table? no. Would I like to have 1 miner for every buyer that's bought based on using my words in their decision process? in hindsight fuck yeah. Did I know they were going to open up an affiliate program? no. Am I part of it? no. Have I stated I absolutely will not be part of it until they prove a working product? Yes. Have I stated I don't think they should run with one until they have a proven working product? yes. Is it my business what they decide currently? no. Am I expecting payment currently? Flight and accommodation would damn well be considerate. Did they pay for that last time? No, and yes I have the card statement to prove it. They mentioned something about rewarding members of the community and opening it up for the forum to decide at the point of production at the open day, but I haven't structured my habits around that, thank. $7k for 3/4 months of being on this forum is peanuts. Believe it or not I've followed this forum as it's been an exciting engineering race, and is 21st century prospectors dream. You couldn't make the BFL/Avalon stories up, neither could you about the engineering feat KnC have decided to tackle. In hindsight it's both madness and the only sensible solution for any legitimate competitor. Aim for the front as it's where it's going anyway. I've been brutally honest in this forum the entire time, every damn prediction I have made about every company has been spot on. Why the fuck am I being persecuted, still? At the time of this thread starting I was being given beef about being pro KnC, and being critical towards Xcrowd, and Hashfast; well; Where are XCrowd? How many times has Hashfast changed it's terms of sale since this thread started, and never told their customers? Noticed this addition a little over a week ago, I have an account set up on changedetection.com tracking changes of terms on most manufacturers sites; on the 9/11 when they changed their terms 4 times in one week;

20. ENTIRE AGREEMENT; SEVERABILITY. These Terms, together with the order confirmation(s) sent from Hashfast to Buyer, are the entire agreement between Buyer and Hashfast with respect to its subject matter and supersedes all prior oral and written understandings, communications, or agreements between Buyer and Hashfast. No agreement is made between Buyer and any Affiliate. Hashfast may revise, update, or otherwise amend these Terms by posting such amended Terms on its website, and such amended Terms will govern Buyer’s purchases if accepted by Buyer as provided in Section 1. No amendment to or modification of these Terms, in whole or in part, will be valid or binding against Hashfast unless it is in writing and manually executed by an authorized representative of Hashfast. If any provision of these Terms should be found to be void or unenforceable, such provision will be stricken or modified, but only to the extent necessary to comply with the law, and the remainder of the provisions will remain in full force and effect.

I'm not the one being devious, above is written consent that a company is awarding itself the power to change and/or negate all terms of sale without forewarning to any of it's customers, when they have been changing their terms of sale the entire time without forewarning any of it's customers, and involved in grossly questionable marketing practices whilst actively taking all steps to remove payment security and accountability.

The crown for being a safe and honest choice for people here has been open for anyone's taking. Why will so few companies attempt this feat? Why shoot me for pointing out what nobody else focuses on. The only people who are pissed off are the ones who are no longer making money from screwing people over here. I like Cointerra, they are making progress, but their chip estimations are theoretical best case. Bitfury has a product in hand and I have never said a bad word about him. One of the first to congratulate Punin in thread, on the day. I mention KnC, then; shill this, shill that because I paid them a visit and stood up for an honest business, and pointed out the dishonest shenanigans occurring elsewhere.

Has KnC taken massive strides into proving everything I said was true? What the hell is the problem with being honest on this f**king forum?!?

[Biomech]

that is just like asking> bitcoinrama, are you on knc's pay list?

They have asked me to work for them, which I have agreed to

Look. The rodent finally admitted he is a KNC shill. Just a few days before they are supposed to ship, as his PR shill job is done. Oh the integrity!

For integrity purposes, I'll post the full quote.

Nope, and I never have been, and I've stated this numerous times. They have asked me to work for them, which I have agreed to, if they prove a working product. Integrity wise I will not prior, and neither have I ever told anyone to purchase from them, or anyone else until such time as they have a working product, at which point i'd be a fool not to.

So technically he is still not working for KnC but yes, please by all means resurrect this useless thread.

If it's useless, why do you feel the need to reply?

I never said he was already on the KNC payroll, but as I said in the other thread, I would not be surprised if he is in line for a free miner or two for this PR/marketing efforts. Payment in kind - you understand? He is totally impartial with a job offer on the table? Right. I'll believe that. He hasn't done a single thing to "encourage" people to buy from KNC. Right. I'll buy that too.

I even sent him a few private messages (you can see them above - oh the integrity!) when I joined the forum, as he seemed to be the go-to guy when it came to KNC. But yeah, he hasn't influenced anyone. I'll buy that.

Ok...

I don't believe, in those hundreds of pages, that he claimed impartiality. Maybe I'm wrong, as to be honest I skipped about 50 pages after I moved, but He has always since his visit been very positive about KnC, and has flown his bias in the open. He also advised caution. Being happy with a company, or even wildly optimisitic (which he has not) isn't the same as shilling for them.

For an example, which hasn't been shown on this forum but still applies as an example, I am a fan of Glock firearms. I love 'em, I recommend them for experts (not novices), and I rarely miss an opportunity, in the correct venues, to discuss them. I'm certainly not a shill as Glock has never paid me a dime or a round. I don't have the money to buy their product currently, yet I still love the weapons. When asked for a recommendation on firearms, they are the SECOND gun I recommend, even though they are my personal favorite, due to the twitchiness of their decocker. A novice could easily shoot themsellves in the foot.

By comparison, Bitcoinorama has been very positive in his estimation of KnC, yet has consistently advised that you do NOT purchase from them in any manner that can't be reversed or legally disputed. This doesn't make sense if he's in on a scam, now does it?

I don't know what started this snit, nor do I care, but damn if you're gonna attack somebody, at least get your facts somewhat in line.

Oh, and just because I know you're gonna go there, Yeah, I like him. He was cool to me from the second day I was registered on this board, he's intelligent and easy to converse with, and he usually makes good sense.

If they did give him a miner for his efforts, he earned it. If they deliver, and he takes the job, I wish him nothing but success. My only beef with him is he got to go to Stockholm, and I didn't.

[eiliant]

God. So much rhetoric and inciting words with false substance.

The accusations and points raised towards Bitcoinorama all seem valid, and especially so to most people without prior knowledge of the respective companies, but damnit anyone can and should just go through his post history if feeling suspicious and think for yourself about the validity of his posts. Think for yourself.

Is it not true that support for different payment methods indicate different prospects for a company?
Or that Hashfast changed its terms? Is that not true, or not important? Perhaps they were just bored. "Aw, I have nothing to do. I guess I'll just go and change the terms and conditions for fun!"

The answer for the title is obvious (no), but the question itself is highly irrelevant. Take cypherdoc for example, he is a known shill for hashfast. But so what? Yes, the difference is that he has incentive to put the company in a good light. But does that mean there is no useful information there? We do live in the 21st Century, learn how to separate the signal from the noise. Again, think for yourself.

You don't have to believe anything, and please form your own judgement. But for all the visitors, please note that the lowest common denominator is what usually gets passed around, and that threads and posts with flaming phrases, like in real life (ads), are mostly by and large useless.


 



(Fucking hell, I don't have anything to do with this. I've just lurked too long and can't bear to see Bitcoinorama being worn out by multiple non-stop trolls when he, at least in my eyes, contributed much useful information for this community. We need more people like him if anything, and ironically he gets his thread against him. Speaking of this community, it's slowly bearing a striking resemblance to 4chan. Minus the coarse humor, and with more shit, less diamonds. )

[Meizirkki]

so what?

+1

Nothing would change if Bitcoinorama was once and for all proven to be or proven not to be a shill.

Hell, 'orama could have even told us in his first post he was an official online representative from KnC. And if KnC never showed up to deny it, nobody would have doubted it. There would be one useless thread less and probably 50 pages of BS less in the KnC thread.

[cypherdoc]

Take cypherdoc for example, he is a known shill for hashfast. But so what? Yes, the difference is that he has incentive to put the company in a good light. But does that mean there is no useful information there? We do live in the 21st Century, learn how to separate the signal from the noise. Again, think for yourself.

as i said in my endorsement thread, i am no longer getting paid by HashFast.  so that's good.

the only thing i have against Bitcoinorama is that he tried to say that i had a malice of intent b/c of my cc cancellations with KNC and BF when i had only held those measly orders for a measly 2 wks.  i still can provide those receipts if i have to to prove this.

and now, we're seeing tons of ppl doing the same thing and considering it normal practice and self protection as they move their orders to cheaper vendors to save money.  i believe he was using me to attack HF.

but as i said before, i think he has provided useful info that i myself used to initially place my orders with KNC in good faith.  

[cypherdoc]

Yes he is a shill.

So what's he gonna do about this mess?

[shitaifan2013]

holy shit guys, you're wasting so much precious life time with your silly internet discussions/accusations 

[Bitcoinorama]

Yes he is a shill.

So what's he gonna do about this mess?

sorry, what?! why is this being dug up again??