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Jalum
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July 10, 2011, 06:46:49 PM
 #61

Serious question... Why did you even bother to create an account on this forum?

Schadenfreude.  This place is an echo chamber, and I know despite all the good advice you get to get out of it, you won't. Smiley
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Each block is stacked on top of the previous one. Adding another block to the top makes all lower blocks more difficult to remove: there is more "weight" above each block. A transaction in a block 6 blocks deep (6 confirmations) will be very difficult to remove.
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July 10, 2011, 06:54:55 PM
 #62

Serious question... Why did you even bother to create an account on this forum?

Schadenfreude.  This place is an echo chamber, and I know despite all the good advice you get to get out of it, you won't. Smiley

What do you think of the concept "Bitcoin"?
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July 10, 2011, 06:56:17 PM
 #63

All i can say is wow. NO PUN INTENDED. Why would they accept bitcoins as you cannot convert them on the weekends and etc. Here is a bit of a newsflash for you: credit cards/debit cards arent instant either. The reason why they are accepted is they are trusted. Bitcoins could have the same outcome but instead of coming up with innovative ideas and working tirelessly to mainstream this thing I see a forum littered with naysayers and people who just say no to everything. I am glad i do not live in such a disappointing world as what exists inside your mind.

To say bitcoins are not able to be used because you cannot trade them on the weekend as readily as you would like (yet) and thus no large company like blizzard could ever embrace them is absolutely retarded. Most things are not traded on weekends. Anything in the stock market. Markets are closed altogether. Yet we can still buy bacon (pork bellies) we can still buy gas (crude oil per barrel) and the list goes on an on.

Perhaps you misunderstand what an option is. People could have the option to pay with bitcoins. It does not mean that they have to or if they choose to do so it may not be because that is the only way they could pay.


from a business owners standpoint accepting credit cards absolutely sucks. The only thing you gain from it is convenience for your customers. A business loses money by accepting cards. Merchant accounts are expensive. If i were to say get 1,000,000 in sales per day with credit cards the fees would be 30,000 on average. So by your logic it would not behoove me to try to recoup some of that 30k im losing in fees everyday?  Seriously?

perhaps they are talking about you towards the end of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtnzEhHBIq8 ?

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July 10, 2011, 07:13:45 PM
 #64

As an average adult in Western society, if someone tells me that something costs a dollar, I have the background knowledge about how I can attain a dollar, and the various means with which I can transmit that dollar to the other party.

Which has nothing much to do with how many steps you have to take to get that Dollar. Even though Bitcoin is pretty new, any teenager will know long before you ever heard of it if it's interesting to them in some way (because the other kids show up in school with it, they need it for some online thing or whatever). The same thing is true of many other new technologies that the current generation takes for granted. Their thumbs are apparently now the most developed because of SMS, while for older generations it was the index finger. How long does Facebook exist and how many people do you know who hasn't heard of it? You underestimate how fast something new can spread.

Quote from: Jalum
The average adult does not know what a bitcoin is.

The average adult does not know a whole lot of things. Most won't ever care, as long as they aren't hungry or homeless. Or their children tell them.

Quote from: Jalum
Please come up with a more concise list of steps that you would tell someone to ensure that they were able to turn their dollars into bitcoins into a WoW subscription.

Not gonna waste time on that since you have made up your mind anyway. You should just know that probably half your items are or will be superfluous soon. There are already sites taking out the steps for conversion and allowing you to pay directly in Bitcoin. If Blizzard ever supported Bitcoin I'm pretty sure some would specialize on making this a one-click process. I expect online wallets and Bitcoin clients with built in CC to BTC via exchange plugins or similar will be commonplace in the not too distant future.

Once you have Bitcoins, for every renewal you just grab your mobile and punch in the amount, select WoW from your bookmarks and you're done. Seconds later you are online. Android wallets already exist, FYI.

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Step number 9 is because there is a prevention on moving money into/out of Dwolla or Mtgox on weekends, isn't there?

You're confusing the items on your own list, the above would be step 5. Step 9 takes seconds. As for step 5, last I heard people were using Dwolla because it's much faster than CC/banks. Maybe you should try another exchange? There are at least 2 professional alternatives now (Tradehill, Camp BX), more soon enough.

The steps involving Dwolla can be eliminated too BTW, you can wire to an exchange directly. AFAIK people use Dwolla because it's faster and/or they already have money in there, and possibly if wire transfers are more expensive from say Europe to a non-EU exchange.

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Isn't that the justification for the price falling every weekend?

I don't think so, if you read other threads the whole weekend dip has been debunked to begin with. Proof: exchange rate didn't dip this weekend, it increased slightly (14.40 to 15.00 right now).

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As a result, no serious merchant would agree to a price in bitcoins if they couldn't immediately convert those to dollars, which cannot be done on the weekend.

But they can. I don't know where you are getting your information, exchanges are 24/7, transfering Bitcoins in or out is a matter of seconds. Deposit/withdrawal of Dollars takes longer, but that is the exact same thing as any other USD only merchant, CC etc., the delay is on the bank end, nothing to do with the Bitcoin economy. Except the fees are lower for BTC. Also, there are already plugins for ecommerce suites (magento for example, 2 others I forget the name of) and merchants who have dynamic pricing and immediate conversion on an exchange, e.g. bitcoinworldmarket.com

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Yes, the products you can buy with bitcoins are "similar" to those you can buy with USD.  They just cost 400% more.

Sorry but that's just bullshit. Look up the merchant list on the wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade) and see how many are charging the exact same or possibly less because of the lower fees.

BTW, I could guess the function of timecard from the context but wasn't familiar with the term (I would have called it prepaid card).
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July 10, 2011, 07:50:51 PM
 #65

I don't have any idea how much credit card fees are, but I have a feeling it is no where near the volatility of Bitcoin. I'm used to waking up every morning and having the price gone up/down 10%. And that's on a quiet day. A company like Blizzard doesn't need to expose itself to that kind of risk.

Exactly.  People need to stop using the transaction fee angle because it's nonsensical.  The amount they pay in fees is a small fraction compared to the volatility exposure they would face with Bitcoins in its current state. 


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July 10, 2011, 08:09:56 PM
 #66

I don't have any idea how much credit card fees are, but I have a feeling it is no where near the volatility of Bitcoin. I'm used to waking up every morning and having the price gone up/down 10%. And that's on a quiet day. A company like Blizzard doesn't need to expose itself to that kind of risk.

Exactly.  People need to stop using the transaction fee angle because it's nonsensical.  The amount they pay in fees is a small fraction compared to the volatility exposure they would face with Bitcoins in its current state.  



Last year, someone paid 10,000 bitcoins for 2 large pizzas. Today, 2 bitcoins can get you 2 large pizzas. I'm sure you can figure out how that works.

The volatility angle is much less of a solid argument than transaction fees.

Help Bitcoins by buying clothes, technology, books, etc. through people/stores that accept BTC. This will increase overall value of BTC as well as mitigate unnecessary bank transaction fees.

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July 10, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
 #67

I don't have any idea how much credit card fees are, but I have a feeling it is no where near the volatility of Bitcoin. I'm used to waking up every morning and having the price gone up/down 10%. And that's on a quiet day. A company like Blizzard doesn't need to expose itself to that kind of risk.

Exactly.  People need to stop using the transaction fee angle because it's nonsensical.  The amount they pay in fees is a small fraction compared to the volatility exposure they would face with Bitcoins in its current state.  



A couple issues. First daily volatility would only be an issue if blizzard were to try to sell their btc at the very moment they received them, every time they received them,   and second the only reason the market is so volatile is because it is loaded with speculators. When more companies embrace BTC volatility will lessen thus speculators will not be able to profit as readily on short term margin trading. Most every market has some amount of volatility but that has never stopped anyone from embracing it eventually.

The coolest thing about BTC is the potential for lucrative opportunities for anyone with a little bit of vision and the ability to think about not what is but what could be.

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July 10, 2011, 08:14:21 PM
 #68

I don't have any idea how much credit card fees are, but I have a feeling it is no where near the volatility of Bitcoin. I'm used to waking up every morning and having the price gone up/down 10%. And that's on a quiet day. A company like Blizzard doesn't need to expose itself to that kind of risk.

Exactly.  People need to stop using the transaction fee angle because it's nonsensical.  The amount they pay in fees is a small fraction compared to the volatility exposure they would face with Bitcoins in its current state.  



Last year, someone paid 10,000 bitcoins for 2 large pizzas. Today, 2 bitcoins can get you 2 large pizzas. I'm sure you can figure out how that works.

The volatility angle is much less of a solid argument than transaction fees.

In a year, 2 bitcoins will get you 10,000 large pizzas?

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July 10, 2011, 08:22:57 PM
 #69

That's not exactly what I was going for  Angry, but now you've made me hungry.

Help Bitcoins by buying clothes, technology, books, etc. through people/stores that accept BTC. This will increase overall value of BTC as well as mitigate unnecessary bank transaction fees.

My address -
1EM9HGg1SEa5Bux1rVEPxGqGSfNTTc9EkC
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July 10, 2011, 08:24:49 PM
 #70

A couple issues. First daily volatility would only be an issue if blizzard were to try to sell their btc at the very moment they received them, every time they received them,   and second the only reason the market is so volatile is because it is loaded with speculators. When more companies embrace BTC volatility will lessen thus speculators will not be able to profit as readily on short term margin trading. Most every market has some amount of volatility but that has never stopped anyone from embracing it eventually.

The coolest thing about BTC is the potential for lucrative opportunities for anyone with a little bit of vision and the ability to think about not what is but what could be.

The problem is a company like Blizzard is not going to be an early adopter.  It's easier to explain transaction fees to a shareholder than speculating in a new currency.  

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July 10, 2011, 08:26:31 PM
 #71

I don't have any idea how much credit card fees are, but I have a feeling it is no where near the volatility of Bitcoin. I'm used to waking up every morning and having the price gone up/down 10%. And that's on a quiet day. A company like Blizzard doesn't need to expose itself to that kind of risk.

Exactly.  People need to stop using the transaction fee angle because it's nonsensical.  The amount they pay in fees is a small fraction compared to the volatility exposure they would face with Bitcoins in its current state. 




I am guessing most of the people who keep harping on the volatility issue have never done any cross boarder trading.  It is a long solved problem.

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July 10, 2011, 08:30:46 PM
 #72

I don't have any idea how much credit card fees are, but I have a feeling it is no where near the volatility of Bitcoin. I'm used to waking up every morning and having the price gone up/down 10%. And that's on a quiet day. A company like Blizzard doesn't need to expose itself to that kind of risk.

Exactly.  People need to stop using the transaction fee angle because it's nonsensical.  The amount they pay in fees is a small fraction compared to the volatility exposure they would face with Bitcoins in its current state. 




I am guessing most of the people who keep harping on the volatility issue have never done any cross boarder trading.  It is a long solved problem.


I'm assuming you mean border.  And Blizzard is not in the business of trading.  If you meant hedging foreign currency exposure then yes that problem has been solved in a derivatives market for which one does not exist (on the proper scale) for Bitcoins. 

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July 10, 2011, 08:31:58 PM
 #73

Quote from: Jalum
Please come up with a more concise list of steps that you would tell someone to ensure that they were able to turn their dollars into bitcoins into a WoW subscription.

Not gonna waste time on that since you have made up your mind anyway.


Psst...it's because you can't.

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You should just know that probably half your items are or will be superfluous soon. There are already sites taking out the steps for conversion and allowing you to pay directly in Bitcoin.

Ahh excellent...and how do I get those bitcoins exactly?  And how does the merchant turn those bitcoins into real money?
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July 10, 2011, 08:35:47 PM
 #74

Quote from: Jalum
Please come up with a more concise list of steps that you would tell someone to ensure that they were able to turn their dollars into bitcoins into a WoW subscription.

Not gonna waste time on that since you have made up your mind anyway.


Psst...it's because you can't.

Quote
You should just know that probably half your items are or will be superfluous soon. There are already sites taking out the steps for conversion and allowing you to pay directly in Bitcoin.

Ahh excellent...and how do I get those bitcoins exactly?  And how does the merchant turn those bitcoins into real money?

By selling them to idiots like me.

Oh, I just took a look at this and I knew enough... Waste of time...

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=21610;sa=showPosts
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July 10, 2011, 08:37:20 PM
 #75

Heh, thanks, now I don't have to make a similar list Smiley I was going to include writing a CV, getting a job, going through the hassle of getting IDd/rejected/reapplying for a bank account, waiting for your first paycheck etc. - since Jalum conveniently ignores the fact that US Dollars do not magically fall out of the air either.

As an average adult in Western society, if someone tells me that something costs a dollar, I have the background knowledge about how I can attain a dollar, and the various means with which I can transmit that dollar to the other party.




The target for this is not yet the average adult anyway.   Target would be precocious kids.

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The average adult does not know what a bitcoin is.  Once you explain to them about anonymous cryptocurrencies, if they're still interested they will need to know how to obtain one.  Please come up with a more concise list of steps that you would tell someone to ensure that they were able to turn their dollars into bitcoins into a WoW subscription.  This is what Blizzard would have to do: if they advertise a payment method, they sure as hell make sure you know how to utilize it.


You sure like to take your staw men and run with them don't you.   No, they have no reason to make sure as hell you know how to utilize every option they make available.  They would only need to do this if it became the only payment options.  Most would continue to do what they do now, and not even really notice if at a conscious level.   Some would notice and shrug it off as probably some regional debit card network or a new value card from the local stores.  Some especially those damn precocious kids would become curious and go learn about it.  

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Yes, the products you can buy with bitcoins are "similar" to those you can buy with USD.  They just cost 400% more.

So are the rent to own places and they are popular to a similar demographic of those cut out of the current banking credit system.

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July 10, 2011, 08:42:54 PM
 #76

I don't have any idea how much credit card fees are, but I have a feeling it is no where near the volatility of Bitcoin. I'm used to waking up every morning and having the price gone up/down 10%. And that's on a quiet day. A company like Blizzard doesn't need to expose itself to that kind of risk.

Exactly.  People need to stop using the transaction fee angle because it's nonsensical.  The amount they pay in fees is a small fraction compared to the volatility exposure they would face with Bitcoins in its current state. 




I am guessing most of the people who keep harping on the volatility issue have never done any cross boarder trading.  It is a long solved problem.


I'm assuming you mean border.  And Blizzard is not in the business of trading.  If you meant hedging foreign currency exposure then yes that problem has been solved in a derivatives market for which one does not exist (on the proper scale) for Bitcoins. 


Right,  but creating it would not take long if a large enough company provided a demand for it. 

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July 10, 2011, 08:46:23 PM
 #77

Another issue besides volatility is the fact that only a very small fraction of the populace has even heard of Bitcoin at this point.  Forget about the kids playing the games because they're not the ones that matter.  They don't own the stock and they're already paying to play right now so the current options have to be working to some degree.

So now Activision-Blizzard comes out and announces Bitcoin adoption.  Lets be REALLY generous and say 10% of outstanding shareholders have heard of Bitcoin.  The rest are finding out through disclosures in Blizzard's 10-K, press release, or other medium.  Okay so now Blizzard has introduced a new exposure risk that 90% of their shareholders have never heard of.  Obviously, they're going to do some research.  We already know how the media has painted Bitcoin.  You think these shareholders are going to be thrilled reading these articles with keywords like "drugs" "guns" and "child pornography?"

And Blizzard is going to take all of this risk because of credit card transaction fees?  Beyond delusional.

Look, I'm not saying what the OP is doing is bad.  It's just wasted effort.  Blizzard is the wrong type of company to be aiming for right now.  Bitcoin is in its infancy and people have to come to grips that a company like Blizzard is not going to be an early adopter.  You need to focus your efforts on a company that has a minority amount of shareholders that is willing to take some risks.  Not a company worried about their stock plummeting on the NASDAQ.  

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July 10, 2011, 08:49:14 PM
 #78

A couple issues. First daily volatility would only be an issue if blizzard were to try to sell their btc at the very moment they received them, every time they received them,   and second the only reason the market is so volatile is because it is loaded with speculators. When more companies embrace BTC volatility will lessen thus speculators will not be able to profit as readily on short term margin trading. Most every market has some amount of volatility but that has never stopped anyone from embracing it eventually.

The coolest thing about BTC is the potential for lucrative opportunities for anyone with a little bit of vision and the ability to think about not what is but what could be.

The problem is a company like Blizzard is not going to be an early adopter.  It's easier to explain transaction fees to a shareholder than speculating in a new currency.  

I do agree with this, Blizzard is very unlikely to be an early adapter, only way it would happen is if it happened to tickle the fancy of someone very high up somehow.


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July 10, 2011, 08:50:44 PM
 #79

The target for this is not yet the average adult anyway.   Target would be precocious kids.

The average adult is absolutely your target.  Your average adult is the one with a brokerage account, 401(k), IRA, etc. etc.

You seem to be forgetting who the owners of the Company are.  Senior management is not answering to "precocious kids" they're answering to shareholders.  You know, the average adult?

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July 10, 2011, 08:54:19 PM
 #80

Another issue besides volatility is the fact that only a very small fraction of the populace has even heard of Bitcoin at this point.  Forget about the kids playing the games because they're not the ones that matter.  They don't own the stock and they're already paying to play right now so the current options have to be working to some degree.

So now Activision-Blizzard comes out and announces Bitcoin adoption.  Lets be REALLY generous and say 10% of outstanding shareholders have heard of Bitcoin.  The rest are finding out through disclosures in Blizzard's 10-K, press release, or other medium.  Okay so now Blizzard has introduced a new exposure risk that 90% of their shareholders have never heard of.  Obviously, they're going to do some research.  We already know how the media has painted Bitcoin.  You think these shareholders are going to be thrilled reading these articles with keywords like "drugs" "guns" and "child pornography?"

And Blizzard is going to take all of this risk because of credit card transaction fees?  Beyond delusional.

Look, I'm not saying what the OP is doing is bad.  It's just wasted effort.  Blizzard is the wrong type of company to be aiming for right now.  Bitcoin is in its infancy and people have to come to grips that a company like Blizzard is not going to be an early adopter.  You need to focus your efforts on a company that has a minority amount of shareholders that is willing to take some risks.  Not a company worried about their stock plummeting on the NASDAQ.  

The stock holders are not the target.    They would not be involved in this or the board any more then they would be been when the phone bill option was added.   I think you are overstating what it takes to add a new payment option.   The shareholders are not going to notice or care any more then then did when the phone pay was added or the zeevox points got added to RoM etc. (different company but same point).


However I do agree completely with your last paragraph.  I think targeting Blizzard right now is tilting at windmills.  Though the cost is low enough that it does not hurt anything really either for them to be trying.


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