The Anonymity concept is holding back the Revolution - dicussion thread

[Akka]

At first, immediately locking a thread after the 1. Post is very bad stile.

Seems like you aren't even interested in counter arguments.

So here everyone can actually answer:

Many BitCoiners are holding the idea that the Bitcoin system will help men to
stay Anonymous in front of the BigBrother. The idea was right and beautiful but
it is a dead idea in reality.

These days No One is really anonymous for the BigBrother.

News about the Prism systems revealed what was a known secret, governments
are surveilling their citizens and all other real or fake enemies. The BigBrother has
the best tools to do so and this advantage will always remain against  the normal
citizens. (only really good hackers can stay Anonymous and only for a while).

Understanding and accepting this should not stop the Bitcoin revolution.

This understanding will enable us to look at all the advantages that Bitcoin
can bring to mankind.

- Worldwide commerce free of banks.
- Third nation people will be free from dictators that control the banks and will
  be able to conduct parallel economies.
- Governments will not be able to sequestrate your money (they can jail you
   but if you hide the key it’s untouchable).

By accepting the idea of "Verified ID Wallet"  we gain a door to worldwide
market of individuals  and firms  that can trade and connect above the banking
system. Instead of wasting time and be on the run from the law we can make
a real commercial revolution.

For some Bitcoiners it will feel like aiming lower but I believe it’s great,
it’s the real gospel.

Mori.S
Colored  BitCoin

[1715374609]

1715374609

[1715374609]

1715374609

[1715374609]

1715374609

[drawingthesun]

Sure some people can verify their wallets for the government, and they can sign a contract with their government saying they will not mix coins and not use zerocoin when it's implemented. Then the government can trace everything they do.

No worries.

But not all countries will require this and the core system must stay free and private.

I imagine eventually all Americans will have to lodge their bitcoin wallets and keys with a bank to be free from prosecution.

But please do not impose the American ideal on the rest of the world.

Thanks.

[Akka]

This is complete agains the aspect of a decentralized currency. To make this possible a Centralized Entity that complete decides who can and who can't use CentralCoin would be needed.

You would need to register somewhere to get your account.

Who will this be? Who decides who gets this power

- Worldwide commerce free of banks.

Central Authority that gives or denies access to the usage of the coin would actually be worse than a bank.

- Third nation people will be free from dictators that control the banks and will
  be able to conduct parallel economies.

No, dictators would know everyone who uses CentralCoin. Therefore it would be easy to outlaw it.

Governments will not be able to sequestrate your money (they can jail you
   but if you hide the key it’s untouchable)

If there is a Central Authority where you have to register in order to use it, the only way to make this possible is if this Authority gives out the keys. Otherwise everyone could create their own keys and use it without the OK of the Authority. Therefore Gouverments could get all Keys from the Authority and steal your money.


TL.DR: CentralCoin would offer no advantages over the current System, but actually would have additional disadvantages.

[adub]

I don't think it's holding back the revolution. It's not helpful in the sense that it upholds the stigma about bitcoin being linked to shady activity but as you can see from the news, the movement moves on. Long awaited conversations with regulators are just around the corner! Conversations that we are prepared for.

EDIT: I don't advocate for every bitcoin address or private key in use to have an identified person behind it. But if you want to start doing large conversions into fiat those users should be expected to comply with any banking and AML standards of the country that governs the particular flavor of fiat.

[Chronikka]

Isn't anonymity one of the BIGGEST reasons lots of people support Bitcoin? So that the centrally controlled banks/governments don't control personal transactions or even have records of those private transactions.

[adub]

Isn't anonymity one of the BIGGEST reasons lots of people support Bitcoin? So that the centrally controlled banks/governments don't have records and control transactions you make

Identification does not mean centralization. The blockchain address and content is still only controlled by the owner of the address/key. "They" could know who you are but not be able to freeze any assets. Add in mixing services and you're anon again.

[drawingthesun]

Add in mixing services and you're anon again.

Or zerocoin/zerocoin like implementation.

[Chronikka]

Isn't anonymity one of the BIGGEST reasons lots of people support Bitcoin? So that the centrally controlled banks/governments don't have records and control transactions you make

Identification does not mean centralization. The blockchain address and content is still only controlled by the owner of the address/key. "They" could know who you are but not be able to freeze any assets. Add in mixing services and you're anon again.

I think you are missing my point. I never said anything about identification = centralization. All I said is that anonymity in a bitcoin transaction is one of the biggest reasons people are drawn to bitcoin. People don't want to be "known" at all. They don't want the governments, banks, etc. (what I referred to as the "central" authorities) to have private information they don't need

[cbeast]

Isn't anonymity one of the BIGGEST reasons lots of people support Bitcoin? So that the centrally controlled banks/governments don't have records and control transactions you make

Identification does not mean centralization. The blockchain address and content is still only controlled by the owner of the address/key. "They" could know who you are but not be able to freeze any assets. Add in mixing services and you're anon again.

I think you are missing my point. I never said anything about identification = centralization. All I said is that anonymity in a bitcoin transaction is one of the biggest reasons people are drawn to bitcoin. People don't want to be "known" at all. They don't want the governments, banks, etc. (what I referred to as the "central" authorities) to have private information they don't need

Nobody uses bitcoin yet. It's hard to know why people will adopt its use. I don't think the anonymity factor is as strong as its deflationary quality. Greed will win.

[Chronikka]

Nobody uses bitcoin yet. It's hard to know why people will adopt its use.

Thats not true plenty of people use bitcoin everyday. Retail acceptance has been slow but that doesn't mean people aren't using it.

[cbeast]

Nobody uses bitcoin yet. It's hard to know why people will adopt its use.

Thats not true plenty of people use bitcoin everyday. Retail acceptance has been slow but that doesn't mean people aren't using it.

Orly? What percentage of cc users have bitcoins?  Probably closer to zero than one. Bitcoin is nothing yet. Get them cheap.

[Chronikka]

Nobody uses bitcoin yet. It's hard to know why people will adopt its use.

Thats not true plenty of people use bitcoin everyday. Retail acceptance has been slow but that doesn't mean people aren't using it.

Orly? What percentage of cc users have bitcoins?  Probably closer to zero than one. Bitcoin is nothing yet. Get them cheap.

Proof? I can make random general statements too ya know. The truth is you have no idea how many people are using bitcoin but I think you would be surprised its a lot bigger than you know.

[adub]

Isn't anonymity one of the BIGGEST reasons lots of people support Bitcoin? So that the centrally controlled banks/governments don't have records and control transactions you make

Identification does not mean centralization. The blockchain address and content is still only controlled by the owner of the address/key. "They" could know who you are but not be able to freeze any assets. Add in mixing services and you're anon again.

I think you are missing my point. I never said anything about identification = centralization. All I said is that anonymity in a bitcoin transaction is one of the biggest reasons people are drawn to bitcoin. People don't want to be "known" at all. They don't want the governments, banks, etc. (what I referred to as the "central" authorities) to have private information they don't need

It depends on the people.

-cryptography folks
-privacy advocates
-people with money movements they want to hide
-the list goes on...

Anonymity all the way.

-Merchants
-payment industry professionals
-investors

The anonymity starts to slip lower on the list of most important attributes.

It's too late to go back now though. Bitcoin is on the radar of payments professionals, investors, currency exchangers, and regulators. If it's going to be used on any scale in the US from here on out, there are rules in place that have to be conformed to in terms of AML, KYC, BSA, etc. Modification of the rules in some form would make sense but who knows if reason will prevail.

There are always people who loved the band up until their 3rd album came out when they "sold out" and never let it go. There are those who loved the 3rd album and everything since. The "sound" of Bitcoin is changing and some are not going to like it.

[justusranvier]

If it's going to be used on any scale in the US from here on out, there are rules in place that have to be conformed to in terms of AML, KYC, BSA, etc. Modification of the rules in some form would make sense but who knows if reason will prevail.

Bitcoin doesn't need the US.

It would be far better for Bitcoin to be banned in the US than it would be to change its fundamental nature.

[adub]

If it's going to be used on any scale in the US from here on out, there are rules in place that have to be conformed to in terms of AML, KYC, BSA, etc. Modification of the rules in some form would make sense but who knows if reason will prevail.

Bitcoin doesn't need the US.

That's a fair and obvious statement to many, but it seems the context of this conversation is how US regulation is softening the anonymity aspect of Bitcoin.

It would be far better for Bitcoin to be banned in the US than it would be to change its fundamental nature.

No one is changing the fundamental nature of Bitcoin and I know of no one who has suggested it. In the US, Bitcoin is likely to be used in the context of all other currency exchange and transmission.

Since "Bitcoin doesn't need the US" that should have no impact whatsoever on the rest of the world, right?

Edited: sorry, bout that.

[justusranvier]

That's a fair and obvious statement to many, but it seems the context of this conversation is how US regulation is softening the anonymity aspect of Bitcoin.

US regulation is compromising the integrity of US-based bitcoin companies. That is all.

[adub]

That's a fair and obvious statement to many, but it seems the context of this conversation is how US regulation is softening the anonymity aspect of Bitcoin.

US regulation is compromising the integrity of US-based bitcoin companies. That is all.

I don't see any US-based Bitcoin companies fighting regulation. They all want it. If they don't, they won't be able to do business at all.

So compromised integrity in the eyes of a rest of world bitcoin users/companies, but necessary for them to operate in the US.

[Akka]

Bitcoin is not anonymous it's pseudonymous.

This pseudonimity is not a feature, nor was it explicitly wanted.

It's simply a necessity. Bitcoin is a decentralized, open source currency.

As soon as you add a central point where you have to register in order to be able to use Bitcoin it is no longer decentralized. Because you immediately have a Authority that decides who can use it and who can't. = Central Bank

Simple as that.

Also Bitcoin is just a protocol. Asking for "Verified ID Wallet" like the OP did, would be like asking for "Verified ID Mail", where you only can send and receive E-Mails when you have your ID verified. It totally defeats the purpose.

Regulation for Financial Service Providers that use Bitcoin, OK (if it has to)

For the protocol itself? Never!

[adub]

Bitcoin is not anonymous it's pseudonymous.

Thank you for pointing that out. I point that out to people who ask about it who are not into BTC but assume those in the know understand that and mean that when they talk about the anonymity of bitcoin.

As soon as you add a central point where you have to register in order to be able to use Bitcoin it is no longer decentralized. Because you immediately have a Authority that decides who can use it and who can't. = Central Bank

Simple as that.

The points of identification are US based exchanges which are not centralized. So a "central bank" or any government entity would not know your identity unless you behavior at the exchange triggered a BSA filling.

This is not a binary process where a switch is flipped and all BTC users in the US have to identify or else. There are nuances to this that soften the sensationalism we hear in the media as well as devout Bitcoin enthusiasts.

I'll also add that  you could be a miner in the US or somehow get your funds into BTC via exchanges other than US based ones, and if you never convert your BTC to USD, you can keep your pseudo-anonymity intact.

[Akka]

Sign. You didn't even really read my post or the OT, did you.

I was not even talking about exchanges. But Verified ID Wallets. So you entire post makes no sense as an answer.

Edit:

Explanation. TX From Bitcoin Addresses that are not registered (Verified ID Wallet) are blocked. Only registered Addresses can be used. --> Central Point of Authority Neccesary.

[cbeast]

Nobody uses bitcoin yet. It's hard to know why people will adopt its use.

Thats not true plenty of people use bitcoin everyday. Retail acceptance has been slow but that doesn't mean people aren't using it.

Orly? What percentage of cc users have bitcoins?  Probably closer to zero than one. Bitcoin is nothing yet. Get them cheap.

Proof? I can make random general statements too ya know. The truth is you have no idea how many people are using bitcoin but I think you would be surprised its a lot bigger than you know.

You win. I'm waiting for the bitcoin commercials during the superbowl.

[adub]

Sign. You didn't even really read my post or the OT, did you.

I was not even talking about exchanges. But Verified ID Wallets. So you entire post makes no sense as an answer.

Edit:

Explanation. TX From Bitcoin Addresses that are not registered (Verified ID Wallet) are blocked. Only registered Addresses can be used. --> Central Point of Authority Neccesary.

Thank you for pointing that out. Yes I'm that guy today.   

Verified ID wallet sounds completely unnecessary/overkill and this is the first I've heard of it. Who is advocating for that?

[justusranvier]

That's a fair and obvious statement to many, but it seems the context of this conversation is how US regulation is softening the anonymity aspect of Bitcoin.

US regulation is compromising the integrity of US-based bitcoin companies. That is all.

I don't see any US-based Bitcoin companies fighting regulation. They all want it. If they don't, they won't be able to do business at all.

So compromised integrity in the eyes of a rest of world bitcoin users/companies, but necessary for them to operate in the US.

http://bitcoinism.blogspot.com/2013/08/trust-no-us-companies-with-future-of.html

[Akka]

Thank you for pointing that out. Yes I'm that guy today.   

Verified ID wallet sounds completely unnecessary/overkill and this is the first I've heard of it. Who is advocating for that?

The OP obviously.

I don't question that exchanges will need to be certified financial service providers. I honestly don't see how it could work (in a big fashion) any different.

The beauty is that we can have it both ways. Certified exchanges and a black marked beneath, just like in the real world.

[adub]

The OP obviously.

Right but is there a movement out there advocating for it?

I guess not.

[Akka]

The OP obviously.

Right but is there a movement out there advocating for it?

I guess not.

No, luckily none I'm aware of.

[digeros]

Nobody uses bitcoin yet. It's hard to know why people will adopt its use.

Thats not true plenty of people use bitcoin everyday. Retail acceptance has been slow but that doesn't mean people aren't using it.

Orly? What percentage of cc users have bitcoins?  Probably closer to zero than one. Bitcoin is nothing yet. Get them cheap.

Proof? I can make random general statements too ya know. The truth is you have no idea how many people are using bitcoin but I think you would be surprised its a lot bigger than you know.

You win. I'm waiting for the bitcoin commercials during the superbowl.

Whatever  If you don't think anyone is transacting in BTC  then just go to any block on the blockchain and lot at ANY block and you will see tons of transactions recorded within the block... so, get your facts start.
1) bitcoin is money Bitcoin is Money
2) bitcoin is a commodity with a return on mining investment
3) bitcoin is a currency with Millions in Dollar value transacted EVERYDAY

For an even better analysis of money and its functions and its problems check out "Rethinking Money"
http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Money-Currencies-Scarcity-Prosperity/dp/1609942965/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376767315

Here are some recent news programs about BITCOIN

BITCOIN NEWS 8/17/2013  not sure where to put THIS  but in a way it affects us all ... Only decent discussion of Bitcoins in News on RT
Capital Interest and Keiser Report (Max Keiser is a Bitcoin Millionaire from PirateMyfilm.com).

Here are some videos about bitcoin recently (todays news on RT.com)  All in english
Daily News Report with Bitcoin Segment and US Authorities (BIG BANKSTERS / VISA /AMEX) "becoming concerned"
http://rt.com/bulletin-board/rtnews-august-16-1200msk-562/

Russian trying to crack down on TOR network
http://rt.com/politics/russia-tor-anonymizer-ban-571/

http://rt.com/shows/prime-interest/bitcoin-gold-snowden-us-600/  BitCoinVs.Gold   what funny is about this is, I weekend gold pan (in theSierra) and have about as much money in goldpanning/camping equip as I do in computers but have made far more money in BTC than I ever did digging for gold...  Anyone want to buy GOLD PANNING equipment for BTC? haha -- digeros

[Hamguy]

At first, immediately locking a thread after the 1. Post is very bad stile.

Seems like you aren't even interested in counter arguments.

So here everyone can actually answer:

Many BitCoiners are holding the idea that the Bitcoin system will help men to
stay Anonymous in front of the BigBrother. The idea was right and beautiful but
it is a dead idea in reality.

These days No One is really anonymous for the BigBrother.

News about the Prism systems revealed what was a known secret, governments
are surveilling their citizens and all other real or fake enemies. The BigBrother has
the best tools to do so and this advantage will always remain against  the normal
citizens. (only really good hackers can stay Anonymous and only for a while).

Understanding and accepting this should not stop the Bitcoin revolution.

This understanding will enable us to look at all the advantages that Bitcoin
can bring to mankind.

- Worldwide commerce free of banks.
- Third nation people will be free from dictators that control the banks and will
  be able to conduct parallel economies.
- Governments will not be able to sequestrate your money (they can jail you
   but if you hide the key it’s untouchable).

By accepting the idea of "Verified ID Wallet"  we gain a door to worldwide
market of individuals  and firms  that can trade and connect above the banking
system. Instead of wasting time and be on the run from the law we can make
a real commercial revolution.

For some Bitcoiners it will feel like aiming lower but I believe it’s great,
it’s the real gospel.

Mori.S
Colored  BitCoin

yes tracking money and where you spend it makes it legal, just like paper money is untrackable unless you record the serial number and know who its currently with. dont be retarded. it can only end badly if the government tracks you even more than it alrady does.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109205308/bitcoin1.gif

[Cryddit]

Big win for Bitcoin, acceptance ordinary use.  Big win for acceptance legitimacy.  Big win legitimacy many legitimate transactions. Many legitimate transactions while not legal impossible Bitcoin.   Would not Bitcoin bought myself except essays like this: 

http://dillingers.com/blog/2013/08/26/an-investment-with-an-absolutely-appalling-history/

Google translate not handle well, but readable more than me.  English.  I feel same.  Only way justify Bitcoin value, if people use for ordinary online payments all kinds.  If that happen, three more value orders magnitude, easy.   If not, coin all just tulips.  Legitimate only way get future rich.

Not saying anonymity must weaken; but must accept police can penetrate with effort, timing attacks, etc, and not much strengthen else never be legal for ordinary use and all we all have tulips.

Can keep tracking Bitcoin hard like tracking cash; but not harder, else sacrifice future.

Edward.

[MrHempstock]

There are always people who loved the band up until their 3rd album came out when they "sold out" and never let it go. There are those who loved the 3rd album and everything since. The "sound" of Bitcoin is changing and some are not going to like it.

Nice analogy!

[NewLiberty]

Add in mixing services and you're anon again.

Or zerocoin/zerocoin like implementation.

Zerocoin is intriguing, though an issue with the homepage always gnaws at me:

Just as paper currency once gained its value from being redeemable for gold, zerocoins gain their value from being redeemable for bitcoins.

I don't know a lot about this but  it seems backwards.  First, isn't gold the anonymous store of value, and paper currencies the non-anonymous serialized more trackable payment devices? Second, are Zerocoins redeemable for bitcoin or is it a oneway trip the other way? 
I have a lot to learn about it yet but my inclination when I see questionable openings is to suggest that it would go swifter riding along top one of the other cryptocurrencies and would also bring more value to a smaller one and thus be more swiftly implemented for live experimentation and learn how it is socialized in a place further from the front lines.  Once the technical aspects are sorted, expect the social and community adjustment will be instructive.
It can always be added later, and sometimes software and protocols aren't always perfect the first time they are added.

[Bitcopia]

There are always people who loved the band up until their 3rd album came out when they "sold out" and never let it go. There are those who loved the 3rd album and everything since. The "sound" of Bitcoin is changing and some are not going to like it.

Nice analogy!

The beauty of Bitcoin is that it can have more than one "sound" if there is enough demand.

[HappMacDonald]

Explanation. TX From Bitcoin Addresses that are not registered (Verified ID Wallet) are blocked. Only registered Addresses can be used. --> Central Point of Authority Neccesary.

Hmm. So if this central authority requires 100% uptime to unblock transactions, then load-sharing across the network becomes a moot effort.

If transactions not certified by the central authority were blocked, then what would be the purpose of using proof of work and mining to defend against double spending? Just make that same central authority play double-spend referee. They already require 100% uptime to verify identities.

And what would be the value of distributing the ledger publicly? If the Central Authority disagrees with what your copy of the ledger says, then only their copy matters since they veto any transaction they choose. So that bitcoin aspect also becomes dead weight.

You are left with "central authority maintains central ledger and must remain online to authorize every transaction, checking the identity of all parties involved". This is indistinguishable from an older and well known payment system called "a Bank".

[hayek]

Innovation and creativity always outpaces tyranny

[Cryddit]

hayek:

Innovation and creativity always outpaces tyranny

I envy your limited experience with tyrants. :-(