Bitcoin Forum
October 19, 2017, 05:31:06 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.0.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: 2013-08-16 RT - Bitcoin never to become a global currency, nothing backs it up  (Read 2585 times)
StarfishPrime
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 359


View Profile
August 17, 2013, 09:19:03 PM
 #21

It is often said that bitcoin isn't backed by anyone, when in reality bitcoin is backed by everyone who uses it and sees value in using it.

The important distinction is that bitcoin's perceptual "backing" is entirely distributed and decentralized, and ultimately far more robust than that of a currency backed by any single political entity. In this respect bitcoin is much more like gold or silver than a national currency.


                         
    ¦                     
  ¦    ¦¦¦               
¦¦  ¦¦¦¦                 
                             ¦¦  ¦¦¦¦
                          ¦ ¦¦ ¦¦¦¦                     
                         ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
                        ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
                        ¦¦¦¦¦¦
                  ¦¦¦  ¦¦¦¦¦¦
                   ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦

                    ¦¦  ¦ ¦¦¦¦
                    ¦¦    ¦¦¦¦
                    ¦¦  ¦ ¦¦¦¦
                   ¦¦¦  ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦
                ¦¦¦¦    ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
             ¦¦¦¦¦    ¦ ¦¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
          ¦¦¦¦¦       ¦  ¦   ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
        ¦¦¦¦         ¦        ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
     ¦¦¦¦          ¦      ¦    ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
    ¦¦¦         ¦¦         ¦   ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
   ¦¦        ¦¦         ¦¦  ¦   ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
  ¦¦       ¦          ¦ ¦¦   ¦  ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
 ¦¦¦     ¦¦          ¦   ¦    ¦  ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
¦¦¦     ¦          ¦      ¦   ¦¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
¦¦¦    ¦        ¦¦         ¦¦  ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
¦¦¦   ¦¦     ¦¦         ¦   ¦  ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
¦¦¦   ¦     ¦¦         ¦¦¦   ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
 ¦¦   ¦¦    ¦        ¦    ¦  ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
 ¦¦    ¦   ¦        ¦¦    ¦  ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
  ¦¦    ¦  ¦¦       ¦     ¦  ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
   ¦¦    ¦  ¦      ¦      ¦  ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
    ¦¦¦   ¦ ¦¦     ¦¦     ¦  ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
     ¦¦¦   ¦ ¦¦     ¦¦    ¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
       ¦¦¦¦  ¦ ¦¦    ¦  ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
          ¦¦¦¦¦¦  ¦¦  ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
             ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
                        ¦¦

.
TorCoin.....
¦
¦
¦
¦
  Fully Anonymous TOR-integrated Crypto
               ¦ Windows     ¦ Linux     ¦ GitHub     ¦ macOS
     ¦
     ¦
     ¦
     ¦
.
   ANN THREAD
     ¦
     ¦
     ¦
     ¦
[/center]
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1508391066
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508391066

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508391066
Reply with quote  #2

1508391066
Report to moderator
freedomno1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344


Activity: 9001 == OP


View Profile WWW
August 19, 2013, 12:46:42 AM
 #22

2 Days later Germany acknowledges it
KISS MY Cheesy

PS: Back to the Kitchen with you lol

wachtwoord
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624


View Profile
August 19, 2013, 12:53:01 AM
 #23

It's better to be backed by nothing than backed by silly Financial Advisors  Grin

 

Bitcoin has more backing than anything ever has in the entire history of civilization.

monkeybars
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 257


PM for Uber free rides


View Profile
August 19, 2013, 05:15:10 PM
 #24

Bogenrief's ignorance of human nature and social interaction is typical for mainstream economists, who study a pseudoscience the modern version of which was entirely created and sustained by the Central Banking Hegemony. Here's proof:

"The problem with Bitcoin is that unlike the dollar, unlike gold, unlike even land there is nothing actually backing it up other than the inherent trust in transactions between its users."

What she and the other charlatans don't realize is, "inherent trust in transactions between . . . users" is the most powerful form of trust in the world, especially when backed by mathematics/cryptography.

> > > Coupons for Uber free rides directly to your account. Use taxi (almost) for free! < < <
Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1792



View Profile
August 19, 2013, 05:44:16 PM
 #25

Bogenrief's ignorance of human nature and social interaction is typical for mainstream economists, who study a pseudoscience the modern version of which was entirely created and sustained by the Central Banking Hegemony. Here's proof:

"The problem with Bitcoin is that unlike the dollar, unlike gold, unlike even land there is nothing actually backing it up other than the inherent trust in transactions between its users."

What she and the other charlatans don't realize is, "inherent trust in transactions between . . . users" is the most powerful form of trust in the world, especially when backed by mathematics/cryptography.

Trust: the most valuable commodity there is

Vires in numeris
freedomno1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344


Activity: 9001 == OP


View Profile WWW
August 19, 2013, 08:25:41 PM
 #26

Bogenrief's ignorance of human nature and social interaction is typical for mainstream economists, who study a pseudoscience the modern version of which was entirely created and sustained by the Central Banking Hegemony. Here's proof:

"The problem with Bitcoin is that unlike the dollar, unlike gold, unlike even land there is nothing actually backing it up other than the inherent trust in transactions between its users."

What she and the other charlatans don't realize is, "inherent trust in transactions between . . . users" is the most powerful form of trust in the world, especially when backed by mathematics/cryptography.

Trust: the most valuable commodity there is

Agreed it's damn time we changed the economics textbooks

Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1792



View Profile
August 19, 2013, 08:33:03 PM
 #27

Bogenrief's ignorance of human nature and social interaction is typical for mainstream economists, who study a pseudoscience the modern version of which was entirely created and sustained by the Central Banking Hegemony. Here's proof:

"The problem with Bitcoin is that unlike the dollar, unlike gold, unlike even land there is nothing actually backing it up other than the inherent trust in transactions between its users."

What she and the other charlatans don't realize is, "inherent trust in transactions between . . . users" is the most powerful form of trust in the world, especially when backed by mathematics/cryptography.

Trust: the most valuable commodity there is

Agreed it's damn time we changed the economics textbooks

I suggested a p2p trust ledger a while ago, the idea was disliked. I still think some implementation of a system like that would be incredibly useful to a social, technological species such as us, but I don't think I'd personally be capable of coming up with anything usable. Hopefully someone will dream something up.

Vires in numeris
Spaceman_Spiff
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1638


₪``Campaign Manager´´₪


View Profile
August 19, 2013, 11:35:08 PM
 #28

I suggested a p2p trust ledger a while ago, the idea was disliked. I still think some implementation of a system like that would be incredibly useful to a social, technological species such as us, but I don't think I'd personally be capable of coming up with anything usable. Hopefully someone will dream something up.

You mean keeping tabs on whether a person is trustworthy or not?  Like you meet someone new, and through this ledger you know if he's a decent fellow or not?
NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
August 19, 2013, 11:42:17 PM
 #29

I really don't get this whole fixation on "what backs it up?".
What backs up the bread on your plate?
Imho, "backing" is a very subjective and vague term, that subtracts from talking about the properties things have.
People apparently need to hear "this money is backed by X", and then they can consider it to be safe.  Yah sorry, it's not that simple.

"Backing" is not at all subjective.  It conveys a specific meaning, that a currency is redeemable for a specific quantity of a particular asset.

The US Federal Reserve Note is backed by US Federal Reserve Notes, or "Full Faith and Credit" if you prefer. (so not backed).
The only backed currencies today are non-governmental, so that is not really the point she likely intended to make anyway.

Bitcoin has a much better chance of becoming backed, than any government currency.  The closest thing to "backing" that central banks have today is an interlocking network of soverign debt.  Each of them owe the all the others in various amounts.  The BASEL II accord still holds the metrics for that, BASEL III is not yet implemented.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
p2pbucks
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 650


Evolution is the only way to survive


View Profile WWW
August 20, 2013, 12:24:58 AM
 #30

I wrote a article to refute this lady yesterday.

written in Chinese Grin
http://p2pbucks.com/?p=6644
solex
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078


100 satoshis -> ISO code


View Profile
August 20, 2013, 01:03:48 AM
 #31

You mean keeping tabs on whether a person is trustworthy or not?  Like you meet someone new, and through this ledger you know if he's a decent fellow or not?

It can't work long-term. The problem is force majeure. Many people are trustworthy for years but they hit problems with personal circumstances, failed business, uninsured accident, ill health, and they default. At some level, even the TBTF banks can be "trusted" until an economic crisis when they become totally untrustworthy. Think of Lehman.

Trust-free money and math-based protocols are the only solution to sound money and stable macro-economics.

lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)
Donator
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 544


View Profile
August 20, 2013, 12:31:38 PM
 #32

Bogenrief's ignorance of human nature and social interaction is typical for mainstream economists, ...
I actually don't think that the "no backing problem" is typical for mainstream economists. Practically all economic schools agree that the main determinant for the choice of which money to use is liquidity, not "backing", and this has been recognised for over a century. Just individual economists, in particular who don't specialise in this area, occasionally forget about this.
prophetx
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288


he who has the gold makes the rules


View Profile WWW
August 20, 2013, 02:04:56 PM
 #33

there is a really interesting academic article in draft form that argues that the imf charter needs to be amended to give virtual currencies non-member currency status, otherwise it can be used to attack and devalue an imf member state currency with the imf having no power to counteract a rapid devaluation.  it argues not only for the inclusion of virtual currencies but also that once amended the imf can ask member states to hold some amount of virtual currency should a speculative devaluation event occur.

obviously at this stage a hypothetical but should bitcoin reach 100B$ the scenario enters into the realm of meaningful probability.

i will try to post it tomorrow when i am back at home.

██████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
███████████████████████
█████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
███████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
███████████████████████
██████████████████████
|
WINGS
Where DAO Unicorns are born
|
.
1st Bitcoin & Ethereum DAO for DAOs                                               
1st Decentralized Chatbot to Smart Contracts Interaction System

|
.
Wings Bounties Earn Eggs    
X-Blockchain DAO

prophetx
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288


he who has the gold makes the rules


View Profile WWW
August 20, 2013, 02:15:51 PM
 #34

actually i think the link is in this thread

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230982.0

██████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
███████████████████████
█████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
███████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████████████
███████████████████████
██████████████████████
|
WINGS
Where DAO Unicorns are born
|
.
1st Bitcoin & Ethereum DAO for DAOs                                               
1st Decentralized Chatbot to Smart Contracts Interaction System

|
.
Wings Bounties Earn Eggs    
X-Blockchain DAO

RodeoX
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2422


The revolution will be monetized!


View Profile
August 20, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
 #35

LOL. RT's argument is soooooo 2010.  Roll Eyes

The gospel according to Satoshi - https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Free bitcoin in ICELAND - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1610684
NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
August 20, 2013, 05:32:51 PM
 #36

I wrote a article to refute this lady yesterday.

written in Chinese Grin
http://p2pbucks.com/?p=6644

精彩

!!!

If you would like to help put more "backing" on bitcoin, I am backing bitcoin with silver and gold. Smiley
In an effort to put a floor on the bitcoin valuation, I am making one ounce .999 silver Quarter Bitcoin pieces as global pieces.
These are also special because the value is flexible along with the exchange rates of bitcoin and silver so that you can read the QR code on the reverse to get the current value.  (No bitcoin is stored in these.  There is no tamper-evident hologram sticker.)  They do not function as wallets, but you can redeem your bitcoin for them.  So bitcoin has backing (though truthfully, bitcoin hardly needs it except for those new to it or who want to trade in person and don't have time to wait for block verification).

Further, the QR code is bookmarked in Chinese to honor the people there who are especially brave and forward looking and have adopted bitcoin in ever growing numbers.


I am looking for folks in China that may want these and can provide them to others there, so that when I get inquiries from people in China looking to buy locally I can send them to people in country.  There is more information and discussion here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269535.0

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
August 20, 2013, 05:35:32 PM
 #37

actually i think the link is in this thread

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230982.0

Thanks for this.  Here's the direct link brought forward:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2248419

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1792



View Profile
August 20, 2013, 08:47:58 PM
 #38

You mean keeping tabs on whether a person is trustworthy or not?  Like you meet someone new, and through this ledger you know if he's a decent fellow or not?

It can't work long-term. The problem is force majeure. Many people are trustworthy for years but they hit problems with personal circumstances, failed business, uninsured accident, ill health, and they default. At some level, even the TBTF banks can be "trusted" until an economic crisis when they become totally untrustworthy. Think of Lehman.

Trust-free money and math-based protocols are the only solution to sound money and stable macro-economics.


I don't doubt that it wouldn't have it's "defaulters", but I wouldn't like such a thing to be used only for financial purposes. I'd implement it (in part) the way the file system permissions in Unix style operating systems work: I trust Amy with my address information, Ishaq to come and browse in my shop, and the Water company to take up to $75 a quarter etc etc. And make it a kind of Diaspora style, personal server from which people can query information about you. Even if people abused the trust vested in them by others, at least we would have more information than we have right now about the kind of people we're dealing with. There are incredibly trustworthy people who, instead of getting the maximum opportunity to utilise it to the benefit of others, have it used against them instead. The trust abusers disappear off to a place where their relative trustworthiness has higher value, and their trust stock is largely undamaged. Everyone loses really, I'd argue that even the abuser does unless they're a completely remorseless psychopath (an information tool to weed those out before they go on to commit major fraud or murder? Sounds useful). And the abused feel like they can't trust anyone in general.

It just seems to me that we have the ability to create some kind of information system, based around trust itself, the world has too many people in it to have to constantly assess people for who they really are. If bad trust credentials followed you around everywhere, is that not a good motivation to always try and behave with good intentions? The difficulty I think is: what is the measure, what is a unit of trust? I have no answer to that, or at least not now. I trust some people more or less about different things, but how do you reflect that objectively?

Vires in numeris
NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
August 21, 2013, 08:23:04 AM
 #39

It'll go on your "permanent record"!

This takes the step toward the automation of externalizing conscience that is currently occupied by religion and law.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!