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Author Topic: The question everybody is asking but nobody has shared the solution to yet  (Read 3867 times)
Nagle
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August 18, 2013, 05:06:19 PM
 #21

Good luck to everyone arbitraging BTC --> MtGox JPY --> JPY --> USD --> Bitstamp USD --> BTC
You will pay a few percent at each step.
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August 18, 2013, 05:43:09 PM
 #22

Good luck to everyone arbitraging BTC --> MtGox JPY --> JPY --> USD --> Bitstamp USD --> BTC
You will pay a few percent at each step.

at large sums that is negotiable....

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August 18, 2013, 05:45:20 PM
 #23

Good luck to everyone arbitraging BTC --> MtGox JPY --> JPY --> USD --> Bitstamp USD --> BTC !

If you are successful and report it here it will likely decrease arbitrage opportunity since it would change market confidence. It's possible that psychological effect would have as great an effect in reducing gap as increasing bitcoin supply in JPY market. Thus I don't expect to hear many positive results other than people who do an experiment for fun. Nevertheless I will be happy to be wrong!

Interestingly it might be possible to distinguish the supply and market perception effects.

Arbitrage should bring the Mtgox JPY price to parity with Bitstamp USD given USD/JPY exchange rate.  Then the change in the gap with MtGox USD / Bitstamp USD between now and when JPY exchange parity is achieved will show the psychological shift since a reasonable hypothesis is that most people who are causing the gap on MtGox USD / Bitstamp USD (by buying at premium as opposed to waiting) do not have the possibility to exit via MtGox JPY --> JPY --> currency exchange --> USD.

There's more to this than psychology. Many of the businesses and people that use Mtgox actually need the fiat. The fiat needs to actually move.
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August 18, 2013, 05:46:05 PM
 #24

Thank you, joesmoe2012, for starting this thread. This is arguably the most important thread on bitcointalk right now.
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August 18, 2013, 05:52:30 PM
 #25

here you go, the steps involved...

http://www.healyconsultants.com/company-incorporation/japan-company-set-up.htm


http://www.healyconsultants.com/fees.html  costs about 10k in consulting fees... would be nice if there was a japanese speaking member who could do this instead

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August 18, 2013, 05:53:51 PM
 #26

Good luck to everyone arbitraging BTC --> MtGox JPY --> JPY --> USD --> Bitstamp USD --> BTC
You will pay a few percent at each step.

BTC --> MtGox JPY = 2.5% + your trading fee, let's say that's 0.3% = 2.8%

Mtgox JPY -> JPY = 0 I think (or some flat fee, which is negligible if you're doing large enough chunks at a time)

JPY --> USD = .1% or less unless your bank gouges you, plus another flat wire fee

USD --> Bitstamp USD = 0.2% (again for high-volume account)

total = approx 3.1% to 3.4%

That leaves a solid 6 percent profit on the table. If anyone who has a Japanese bank account would like to team up to make this happen, let me know. I have bots which can do the trades efficiently and high volume  mtgox and bitstamp accounts (= lowest fee tiers). I also have access to enough capital to make it worth while. Only thing I don't have is a Japanese bank account in the hands of someone I trust. Or do it yourself, I will applaud you and help in any way I can. I agree with joesmoe2012, this needs to be done for the good of the whole system.
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August 18, 2013, 05:56:38 PM
 #27

Good luck to everyone arbitraging BTC --> MtGox JPY --> JPY --> USD --> Bitstamp USD --> BTC
You will pay a few percent at each step.
You could e.g. send JPY to Bitstamp if Bitstamp's bank offer a better JPY to USD exchange rate than yours.  And it is pretty good, IMO.  Less than 1% loss there.  Exchange fees (0.5% or less x 2) and SWIFT transfer fee (fixed sum) are going to be the main expenses.  Not much for a large enough sum.  8000 USD or more, and you should be able to get away with less than 2% in fees.  The BTC/JPY rate may be up to 2.5% worse than BTC/USD, but usually the difference is smaller.  Sometimes the BTC/JPY rate is even better than BTC/USD, but probably not at high volume.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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August 18, 2013, 05:57:02 PM
 #28

haha....

http://www.quora.com/Business-in-Japan/Which-is-the-best-Bank-to-open-a-corporate-account-%E6%B3%95%E4%BA%BA%E5%8F%A3%E5%BA%A7-in-Japan

"There is no good bank to open a corporate account at in Japan.  As far as I can tell based on my experience, they pretty much all suck.  They have lousy service (amazing in a country where all the other service industries are so good) and staggeringly high fees.  It's pretty much an oligopoly.  If you have even a single Japanese employee, you'll have to deal with a Japanese bank for tax deposits and such.

...

Bear in mind that this is a country where everyone gets screwed by the banks.  Japanese banks are so bad, you'll long for Bank of America.  $6 to deposit a single check!  ATM fees that are higher after 5pm (in Japan, machines get paid overtime, apparently)!  Virtually everything has to be done in person!"

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qxzn
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August 18, 2013, 05:59:45 PM
 #29

here you go, the steps involved...

http://www.healyconsultants.com/company-incorporation/japan-company-set-up.htm


http://www.healyconsultants.com/fees.html  costs about 10k in consulting fees... would be nice if there was a japanese speaking member who could do this instead

One of the reasons that I (and probably others considering this) hesitate to go through all this is that this arb is a temporary arms race. There are a couple of reasons it could and probably will dissolve soon: (1) somebody else wins the race, or (2) mtgox solves their withdrawal issues. So who wants to take the time and money to set up a new account just to the opportunity dry up before you can even use it? That's why it's better to partner with somebody who already has an account.
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August 18, 2013, 06:01:28 PM
 #30


That leaves a solid 6 percent profit on the table. If anyone who has a Japanese bank account would like to team up to make this happen, let me know. I have bots which can do the trades efficiently and high volume  mtgox and bitstamp accounts (= lowest fee tiers). I also have access to enough capital to make it worth while. Only thing I don't have is a Japanese bank account in the hands of someone I trust. Or do it yourself, I will applaud you and help in any way I can. I agree with joesmoe2012, this needs to be done for the good of the whole system.


That person will become a money transmitter immediately and after successful transfer of some couple of millions out of nowhere I bet he will have some serious paper work to attend to.

BTC:    1Hpk4rWpP3gACJhXHn8VkeNp4usdQmfuVY
LTC:    LM5p7X9dTsWj14G2VQeJKuntVUc6GsPnDp
prophetx
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August 18, 2013, 06:06:07 PM
 #31


That leaves a solid 6 percent profit on the table. If anyone who has a Japanese bank account would like to team up to make this happen, let me know. I have bots which can do the trades efficiently and high volume  mtgox and bitstamp accounts (= lowest fee tiers). I also have access to enough capital to make it worth while. Only thing I don't have is a Japanese bank account in the hands of someone I trust. Or do it yourself, I will applaud you and help in any way I can. I agree with joesmoe2012, this needs to be done for the good of the whole system.


That person will become a money transmitter immediately and after successful transfer of some couple of millions out of nowhere I bet he will have some serious paper work to attend to.


not exactly, it depends.

the company needs to be set up in a way where the owner(s) of the company capitalize the company with the funds used for trading, and the profits are distributed as a dividend to shareholder. when there is no more funds, the company is dissolved and the trading funds are sent back to investors.

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qxzn
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August 18, 2013, 06:07:42 PM
 #32


That leaves a solid 6 percent profit on the table. If anyone who has a Japanese bank account would like to team up to make this happen, let me know. I have bots which can do the trades efficiently and high volume  mtgox and bitstamp accounts (= lowest fee tiers). I also have access to enough capital to make it worth while. Only thing I don't have is a Japanese bank account in the hands of someone I trust. Or do it yourself, I will applaud you and help in any way I can. I agree with joesmoe2012, this needs to be done for the good of the whole system.


That person will become a money transmitter immediately and after successful transfer of some couple of millions out of nowhere I bet he will have some serious paper work to attend to.


not exactly, it depends.

the company needs to be set up in a way where the owner(s) of the company capitalize the company with the funds used for trading, and the profits are distributed as a dividend to shareholder. when there is no more funds, the company is dissolved and the trading funds are sent back to investors.

Re: money transmitter: no.

Re: doing it all cleanly as prophetx describes, yes.
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August 18, 2013, 06:50:02 PM
 #33


That leaves a solid 6 percent profit on the table. If anyone who has a Japanese bank account would like to team up to make this happen, let me know. I have bots which can do the trades efficiently and high volume  mtgox and bitstamp accounts (= lowest fee tiers). I also have access to enough capital to make it worth while. Only thing I don't have is a Japanese bank account in the hands of someone I trust. Or do it yourself, I will applaud you and help in any way I can. I agree with joesmoe2012, this needs to be done for the good of the whole system.


That person will become a money transmitter immediately and after successful transfer of some couple of millions out of nowhere I bet he will have some serious paper work to attend to.


not exactly, it depends.

the company needs to be set up in a way where the owner(s) of the company capitalize the company with the funds used for trading, and the profits are distributed as a dividend to shareholder. when there is no more funds, the company is dissolved and the trading funds are sent back to investors.

Re: money transmitter: no.

Re: doing it all cleanly as prophetx describes, yes.

set up google docs excel sheet that looks at market depth of bistamp, btce and mtgox, and finds the equilibrium point this equals your profit opportunity, minus fees

assuming you want to proceed this is no diff then setting up an investment fund...

set up LLC in Cali, (b/c u can use VC LP boilerplate) take in limited partners who are accredited investors... let's call it Bitcoin Arbitrage Partners, LLC... (BAP)... set up governance and contractual agreements when the fund is liquidated, how LPs are paid out, etc. Investment should be 50% cash 50% btc (well at least 25% btc so you dont need to wait on network transfer)

set up a company (BAP JP) in JP that is owned by BAP, set up corp bank account for BAP JP

set up another company in the eurozone (BAP Euro) for btce

Now transfer money to Bitstamp, fund BAP Euro, and then transfer money to BTCE.

transfer btc to mtgox

start buying on bitstamp and btce, while selling on gox (since you have btc on goc u dont need to wait for network transfer)... i'm sure there are people on here that have the trading and coding exp who can run the trading op's...




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August 18, 2013, 07:48:09 PM
 #34

Good luck to everyone arbitraging BTC --> MtGox JPY --> JPY --> USD --> Bitstamp USD --> BTC !

If you are successful and report it here it will likely decrease arbitrage opportunity since it would change market confidence. It's possible that psychological effect would have as great an effect in reducing gap as increasing bitcoin supply in JPY market. Thus I don't expect to hear many positive results other than people who do an experiment for fun. Nevertheless I will be happy to be wrong!

Interestingly it might be possible to distinguish the supply and market perception effects.

Arbitrage should bring the Mtgox JPY price to parity with Bitstamp USD given USD/JPY exchange rate.  Then the change in the gap with MtGox USD / Bitstamp USD between now and when JPY exchange parity is achieved will show the psychological shift since a reasonable hypothesis is that most people who are causing the gap on MtGox USD / Bitstamp USD (by buying at premium as opposed to waiting) do not have the possibility to exit via MtGox JPY --> JPY --> currency exchange --> USD.

Q. Do you keep independent ask/bid tables for different currencies?

"A. No, ask/bid tables for different currencies are not independent. All currencies are relative to whichever currency has the highest volume, which is based on said currencies current market price in bitcoin. Every trade is in one pool and in fact, not are not separate currency markets. This allows users the added benefit of trading in "the greater market" -in currencies they understand- while not limiting them to smaller currency markets."

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20800336-Multi-Currency-Trading
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August 18, 2013, 08:08:18 PM
 #35

That's a SWIFT from gox to polish bank account denominated in EURO but in japanese yen (so bank will convert upon arrival).
SWIFT transfer is futile at the moment.  EUR (SEPA) or PLN (domestic) will be much faster.

I have been waiting more than a month for PLN and I gave up.  Are there any news about PLN wire transfers from MtGox?
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August 19, 2013, 10:15:42 AM
 #36

Good luck to everyone arbitraging BTC --> MtGox JPY --> JPY --> USD --> Bitstamp USD --> BTC
You will pay a few percent at each step.

 A few percent? Don't think so. Japanese domestic withdraw is 200 Yen. You can send the Yen directly to BitStamp as they convert all incoming wires into USD at a very good rate.

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August 19, 2013, 10:17:04 AM
 #37

Good luck to everyone arbitraging BTC --> MtGox JPY --> JPY --> USD --> Bitstamp USD --> BTC
You will pay a few percent at each step.

Correct ,with like 10k BTC sums.

Anybody looking for move a few hundred BTC around to make a 20% profit won't have any issue, so long as they can withdraw to domestic japanese bank.


at large sums that is negotiable....

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August 19, 2013, 10:21:00 AM
 #38


That leaves a solid 6 percent profit on the table. If anyone who has a Japanese bank account would like to team up to make this happen, let me know. I have bots which can do the trades efficiently and high volume  mtgox and bitstamp accounts (= lowest fee tiers). I also have access to enough capital to make it worth while. Only thing I don't have is a Japanese bank account in the hands of someone I trust. Or do it yourself, I will applaud you and help in any way I can. I agree with joesmoe2012, this needs to be done for the good of the whole system.


That person will become a money transmitter immediately and after successful transfer of some couple of millions out of nowhere I bet he will have some serious paper work to attend to.


I don't see any basis for this. If your'e just sending money from your account at one exchange to your account at another, you are not a money transmitter. A money transmitter is someone who as a business transfers money to/from a third party.

In this case there is no third party, at all time the money remains in your accounts.

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August 19, 2013, 10:24:30 AM
 #39

Interesting on the HSBC premier thing, I was under the impression that US HSBC Premier Account Holders coupld potentially receive JPY payments via HSBC in Japan. In fact I just opened an HSBC Premier Account specifically for this reason.

Bakada - Any news back form citibank yet? What did they say when you asked about receiving JPY payments to your non-japanese citi account.

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August 19, 2013, 12:06:51 PM
 #40

Good luck to everyone arbitraging BTC --> MtGox JPY --> JPY --> USD --> Bitstamp USD --> BTC !

If you are successful and report it here it will likely decrease arbitrage opportunity since it would change market confidence. It's possible that psychological effect would have as great an effect in reducing gap as increasing bitcoin supply in JPY market. Thus I don't expect to hear many positive results other than people who do an experiment for fun. Nevertheless I will be happy to be wrong!

Interestingly it might be possible to distinguish the supply and market perception effects.

Arbitrage should bring the Mtgox JPY price to parity with Bitstamp USD given USD/JPY exchange rate.  Then the change in the gap with MtGox USD / Bitstamp USD between now and when JPY exchange parity is achieved will show the psychological shift since a reasonable hypothesis is that most people who are causing the gap on MtGox USD / Bitstamp USD (by buying at premium as opposed to waiting) do not have the possibility to exit via MtGox JPY --> JPY --> currency exchange --> USD.

Q. Do you keep independent ask/bid tables for different currencies?

"A. No, ask/bid tables for different currencies are not independent. All currencies are relative to whichever currency has the highest volume, which is based on said currencies current market price in bitcoin. Every trade is in one pool and in fact, not are not separate currency markets. This allows users the added benefit of trading in "the greater market" -in currencies they understand- while not limiting them to smaller currency markets."

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20800336-Multi-Currency-Trading



Thanks for reminding me!  This explains the simple relationship between gap between MtGox USD/ Bitstamp USD and  MtGox JPY (in $equiv) / Bitstamp USD.

It also explains the 2.5% that qxzn referred to in his calculation of the costs of
BTC --> MtGox JPY.   (2.5% + 0.3%)

2.5% is the MtGox currency exchange fee for transactions that are coming from another currency is that right?

Question:
If all transactions are in one pool and I will pay 2.5% for a transaction with a seller in any other currency, what happens if I buy bitcoins from a seller using my currency, but which is not from the dominant currency. For example if I am based in GBP and I buy 1 BTC for 60GBP  from another user will this incur a 2.5% currency exchange free from the dominant currency? I.e. does seller actually list in USD (dominant currency) and thereby pay 2.5% and then I buy in GBP and pay 2.5% to do so?

How does one see when the 2.5% is charged to a transaction?

As a UK user is it stupid for me to keep GBP on MtGox? Is it better to just eat the currency exchange fee on entry and exit as is done at Bitstamp?
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