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Author Topic: The question everybody is asking but nobody has shared the solution to yet  (Read 3897 times)
sturle
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August 19, 2013, 12:38:50 PM
 #41

2.5% is the MtGox currency exchange fee for transactions that are coming from another currency is that right?

Question:
If all transactions are in one pool and I will pay 2.5% for a transaction with a seller in any other currency, what happens if I buy bitcoins from a seller using my currency, but which is not from the dominant currency. For example if I am based in GBP and I buy 1 BTC for 60GBP  from another user will this incur a 2.5% currency exchange free from the dominant currency? I.e. does seller actually list in USD (dominant currency) and thereby pay 2.5% and then I buy in GBP and pay 2.5% to do so?

How does one see when the 2.5% is charged to a transaction?

As a UK user is it stupid for me to keep GBP on MtGox? Is it better to just eat the currency exchange fee on entry and exit as is done at Bitstamp?
Many people have difficulties grasping this..

The difference is rarely 2.5%.  Here is a current picture of the best bid and best ask in various currencies (just a small selection), and their ratio to the best bid and ask in USD:
Code:
Tickers and ratio to USD:
EUR:    88.24500 0.9909    88.95000 0.9955
GBP:    74.25805 0.9773    75.00000 0.9837
AUD:   127.32911 0.9833   129.99000 1.0005
JPY: 11316.46600 0.9773 11704.00000 1.0073
PLN:   372.00000 0.9880   377.00000 0.9979
NOK:   687.66483 0.9773   711.89899 1.0083

As you'll see from this very few of the currencies have a 2.5% (0.975 or 1.025) ratio to USD.  Some currencies here has a ratio of 0.9773 on the bid side.  This is due to a bid in another currency (not displayed here) which is a 0.23% above the best USD bid.  It shows up at 0.9773 ratio to USD on all other currencies, including USD.  If someone sell in one of those currencies, it will be a mixed currency trade against that currency, not USD, which means the trade will happen at a price better than 2.5% below best USD bid.  Best ask are close to 1 for all currencies due to an ask in one currency (possibly GBP here, haven't checked) which is far below the best ask in USD.  This will show up fairly close to the best ask in USD as well.  The round numbers (129.99000 AUD, 11704.00000 JPY) indicates that the ask was placed in this currency.  If it is converted from a different currency, it is unlikely to be this round.  As you see you will usually trade against an order in the same currency.  Mixed currency trades are actually not very common.  Mixed currency against USD is even less common, since many use this as a metric of how the price should be, and bid or ask a little bit better in their own currency to pick up such trades.

There is no fee for anyone.  If someone buy the GBP ask at 75 using another currency, e.g. JPY, she will pay whatever her bid is in JPY.  The buyer gets her BTC at what she bid in JPY, and the seller will receive 75 GBP for each BTC she bought.  MtGox will do the currency conversion internally (at 2.5% comission).  This happens behind the scenes.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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prophetx
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August 19, 2013, 04:38:29 PM
 #42

here you go, the steps involved...

http://www.healyconsultants.com/company-incorporation/japan-company-set-up.htm


http://www.healyconsultants.com/fees.html  costs about 10k in consulting fees... would be nice if there was a japanese speaking member who could do this instead

One of the reasons that I (and probably others considering this) hesitate to go through all this is that this arb is a temporary arms race. There are a couple of reasons it could and probably will dissolve soon: (1) somebody else wins the race, or (2) mtgox solves their withdrawal issues. So who wants to take the time and money to set up a new account just to the opportunity dry up before you can even use it? That's why it's better to partner with somebody who already has an account.

yes i understand this is the first penguins in the water issue; however this has been on going for the better part of this year, and one may conclude that there is no corporation willing to do this at this point in time.

but hey if you spend 100 hours and 10K to set this up and make say 100k in profit, it was time well spent...

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August 19, 2013, 06:27:53 PM
 #43

That's a SWIFT from gox to polish bank account denominated in EURO but in japanese yen (so bank will convert upon arrival).
SWIFT transfer is futile at the moment.  EUR (SEPA) or PLN (domestic) will be much faster.

I have been waiting more than a month for PLN and I gave up.  Are there any news about PLN wire transfers from MtGox?
Just to be clear, you tried to withdraw polish zloty from mtgox to a polish bank account, and it wasn't processed after a month?
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August 19, 2013, 07:08:48 PM
 #44

That's a SWIFT from gox to polish bank account denominated in EURO but in japanese yen (so bank will convert upon arrival).
SWIFT transfer is futile at the moment.  EUR (SEPA) or PLN (domestic) will be much faster.

I have been waiting more than a month for PLN and I gave up.  Are there any news about PLN wire transfers from MtGox?
Just to be clear, you tried to withdraw polish zloty from mtgox to a polish bank account, and it wasn't processed after a month?

Approx a month, i can't check the exact date atm as my iphone is dead (no 2fa). At least 3 weeks less than 5 weeks.

I tested one polish withdraw for 500 zlota and it went through next day. So then i tried larger ones and they are all still pending.

sturle
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August 19, 2013, 07:40:16 PM
 #45

I tested one polish withdraw for 500 zlota and it went through next day. So then i tried larger ones and they are all still pending.
What does support have to say about it?

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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August 19, 2013, 07:54:38 PM
 #46

I tested one polish withdraw for 500 zlota and it went through next day. So then i tried larger ones and they are all still pending.
What does support have to say about it?
"We are broke."  Grin

(No, I truly hope this isn't the case, but it's a real possibility imo)
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August 19, 2013, 08:21:35 PM
 #47

I tested one polish withdraw for 500 zlota and it went through next day. So then i tried larger ones and they are all still pending.
What does support have to say about it?
"We are broke."  Grin

(No, I truly hope this isn't the case, but it's a real possibility imo)

It might also be that they have only limited funds on their Polish bank accound and thus need to make a SWIFT transfer from their Japanese account to replenish the funds. And if they can only send 10 SWIFT payments a day...
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August 19, 2013, 09:04:53 PM
 #48

I tested one polish withdraw for 500 zlota and it went through next day. So then i tried larger ones and they are all still pending.
What does support have to say about it?
"We are broke."  Grin

(No, I truly hope this isn't the case, but it's a real possibility imo)

It might also be that they have only limited funds on their Polish bank accound and thus need to make a SWIFT transfer from their Japanese account to replenish the funds. And if they can only send 10 SWIFT payments a day...

Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. Boom!
this has been covered on other threads,the issue is not with funds, the issue is with their bank in poland from what i recall

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DannyHamilton
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August 20, 2013, 05:28:57 AM
 #49

I can confirm local Japanese domestic account transfers are fairly quick.  I did a withdrawal from Gox on Sunday night as posted above and Lunch Tuesday it hit my bank account.   Now who can I buy some coins from! Smiley

How many would you like to buy, how close to Gox price are you willing to pay, and how will you get your payment to the seller?

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August 20, 2013, 06:11:15 AM
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I can confirm local Japanese domestic account transfers are fairly quick.  I did a withdrawal from Gox on Sunday night as posted above and Lunch Tuesday it hit my bank account.   Now who can I buy some coins from! Smiley


btcchina price is 522 cny (102 $)

You can come to China to buy Exchange
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August 20, 2013, 06:28:55 AM
 #51

I may have missed it, but how exactly is this grand plan supposed to work? Funds are stuck at gox. You cannot withdraw USD. You want to withdraw Yen. To sell coins for Yen, you need to find somebody to buy them, paying Yen. Who would that be?

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August 20, 2013, 06:46:21 AM
 #52

I may have missed it, but how exactly is this grand plan supposed to work? Funds are stuck at gox. You cannot withdraw USD. You want to withdraw Yen. To sell coins for Yen, you need to find somebody to buy them, paying Yen. Who would that be?

Hes not using USD nor is he from the US, and you can just wire the Yen SWIFT from your Japanese bank account directly to Bitstamp where it will be converted at nearly spot market rate into USD for trading into bitcoins at a 20% profit.

Then transfer bitcoins to gox, sell, and repeat.

Really simple actually.

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August 20, 2013, 07:12:18 AM
 #53

I may have missed it, but how exactly is this grand plan supposed to work? Funds are stuck at gox. You cannot withdraw USD. You want to withdraw Yen. To sell coins for Yen, you need to find somebody to buy them, paying Yen. Who would that be?
Yes, you have missed it.  JPY is a convertible currency.  Any other convertible currency, e.g. EUR or USD, will do.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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August 20, 2013, 03:08:43 PM
 #54

I may have missed it, but how exactly is this grand plan supposed to work? Funds are stuck at gox. You cannot withdraw USD. You want to withdraw Yen. To sell coins for Yen, you need to find somebody to buy them, paying Yen. Who would that be?

Hes not using USD nor is he from the US, and you can just wire the Yen SWIFT from your Japanese bank account directly to Bitstamp where it will be converted at nearly spot market rate into USD for trading into bitcoins at a 20% profit.

Then transfer bitcoins to gox, sell, and repeat.

Really simple actually.
Right, so you need to sell BTC for Yen at gox. How would that work with the current market depth?

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sturle
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August 20, 2013, 03:14:08 PM
 #55

Right, so you need to sell BTC for Yen at gox. How would that work with the current market depth?
Very easy.  MtGox has one orderbook.  (With some currency conversion quirks which can be confusing when you try to understand them, but there is really no need since it is transparent to the users.)  All BTC offered in all currencies are available in all other currencies as well.  The JPY order book is just as deep as the other order books.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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August 20, 2013, 03:24:52 PM
 #56

Has anyone addressed the obvious question of it arbitrage opportunities have existed for 2 months, why hasn't someone taken full advantage of it?  They haven't because the spread still exists between exchanges, and is growing larger and larger.   
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August 20, 2013, 03:28:17 PM
 #57

Has anyone addressed the obvious question of it arbitrage opportunities have existed for 2 months, why hasn't someone taken full advantage of it?  They haven't because the spread still exists between exchanges, and is growing larger and larger.   

all good by me, if i can get my sepa transfers from mtgox later this week, i'm happy to make 20% :p

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sturle
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August 20, 2013, 04:40:44 PM
 #58

Has anyone addressed the obvious question of it arbitrage opportunities have existed for 2 months, why hasn't someone taken full advantage of it?  They haven't because the spread still exists between exchanges, and is growing larger and larger.   
You wouldn't waste the opportunity on 10% when 20% is in sight, would you?  Arbitrage bots have a trigger point.  The difference between Bitstamp and MtGox was exactly 8% or below for days, and it seems a higher difference triggered a bot to trade on both exchanges.  The panicing hoardes probably exceeded the financial capacity of this bot, and it ran out of funds, which made the max 8% difference end abruptly.  Expect it's trigger point to be raised when it is funded again.  I'm sure the bot could make profit on 5% or 3% as well, but it would run out of funds faster then and miss better opportunities later.

There is an idiot born every minute, and all of them seems to be busy giving their money to arbitrageurs now.  The amount of money given away is so high, not many people have the capital needed to hold the spread stable.  As more people get into the game, the difference will go down and become more variable with highs during weekends (no new money getting in or out of exchanges, but BTC may move).

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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August 20, 2013, 04:40:52 PM
 #59

Has anyone addressed the obvious question of it arbitrage opportunities have existed for 2 months, why hasn't someone taken full advantage of it?  They haven't because the spread still exists between exchanges, and is growing larger and larger.  

The higher the gap the more you make on Arb.   There are some very fishy high sized BTC sell orders popping up @ BTC-e to keep the price down.... they are completely out of context for BTC-e from what i've seen over many months trading.

I thought you were a successful Arber tbh or you just want gox dead?  because you know if gox dies instantly so does a ton of crypto investment.  If the spread is equal many can move out of gox.
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August 20, 2013, 05:04:02 PM
 #60

Has anyone addressed the obvious question of it arbitrage opportunities have existed for 2 months, why hasn't someone taken full advantage of it?  They haven't because the spread still exists between exchanges, and is growing larger and larger.  
I thought you were a successful Arber tbh or you just want gox dead?  because you know if gox dies instantly so does a ton of crypto investment.  If the spread is equal many can move out of gox.

No, I never said that I ever was doing arb trading (very few, if any actually are).  If Gox dies, the demand will be picked up at other exchanges.  Bitcoin will survive despite Gox, not because of it. 

So on another thread I may have discovered why the spread still exists.  Looks like small volume arb opportunities might exist, but larger volume arb isn't possible.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277455.msg2972810#msg2972810

Im happy to move out of gox & take my business elsewhere when the price is closer, although im not sure any other trading platform is safer.  I'm not happy if gox instantly dies & governments steals several mil of crypto community investment.  I will look into what you've said in other thread.
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