BFL announces 28nm 600GH/S blade for $4680

[bcp19]

Keep chanting your mantra, <Oooom... long con... Ooooom>.  You refuse to acknowledge anything but your limited point of view, even though you are wrong.  

I wonder what causes someone to have such an emotional investment in defending BFL? They're a bunch of assholes completely fucking over their customers.

They claim that most of the hashrate increase is caused by them. If that is true, it means they took so many orders that if they shipped them on time their customers would never make much back on their investment, without price increases.

So what is it that motivates people to come on here and vociferously defend them?  If it's the case that most of the hashrate increases are due to their shipping units, then their customers were fucked all along.

Anyway, you don't really have much of an argument anyway, as far as I can tell.  You don't have any numbers at all. So it's not even clear what you're trying to say.

You are misinterpreting someone who defends their position on things as being someone who is deeply invested into a company.  While I am the formar, I most certainly am not the latter. I made an estimate based on a certain question and it's since been blownout of proportion and used like I made a knowing statement of fact.

Your statements show your lack of understanding as well.   "They claim that most of the hashrate increase is caused by them" Nope. Maybe you need to go back and reread the original statement instead of paraphrasing it and making it false.  The comment was "Meanwhile, in BFL land, more product than any other company has been shipped.  More hashrate than any other company has been shipped."  Your statement says they claimed over half of the current network hash rate, which is patently false.  The actual statement says more than any other company.  That would be a lot easier to do than the haters claim.

Since your opinion so *SO* vitally important to me, I'll take your comments into consideration.

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[Syke]

Your statements show your lack of understanding as well.   "They claim that most of the hashrate increase is caused by them" Nope. Maybe you need to go back and reread the original statement instead of paraphrasing it and making it false.  The comment was "Meanwhile, in BFL land, more product than any other company has been shipped.  More hashrate than any other company has been shipped."  Your statement says they claimed over half of the current network hash rate, which is patently false.  The actual statement says more than any other company.  That would be a lot easier to do than the haters claim.

So what do you think the following quote means?

http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/

Butterfly Labs has shipped more ASIC products than all competitors combined

Units? Not likely. That belongs to the tons of USB miners. Must mean hashrate.

Or how about this one:

Who's deploying then?  The network hashrate seems to be going up in lockstep with the amount of hashrate we are shipping out, give or take a slight deviation.

They're claiming that nearly all of the hashrate increase is their products.

[Ytterbium]

Maybe you need to go back and reread the original statement instead of paraphrasing it and making it false.  The comment was "Meanwhile, in BFL land, more product than any other company has been shipped.  More hashrate than any other company has been shipped."  Your statement says they claimed over half of the current network hash rate, which is patently false.

Nope, it's completely true.  

They did claim that most of the hashrate was from them, in fact at one point they claimed that ALL of the hashrate increase was from them, and that they were the only company shipping anything.  I'm pretty sure it was within the past month.

It's odd that you seem to think there's only one "original comment" like that was the only thing they ever said about it.

I also don't even understand what point you're trying to make.  You seem to only be arguing with people who criticize them without making any actual point at all.

If BFL is shipping the majority of Hashrate, then their customers were fucked from the very begining, even if they didn't delay.  That's what they're actually claiming.

On the other hand, if they're not shipping most of the Hashrate, then their customers have been fucked by their being nearly a year late.

Either way, they fucked their customers.

I still don't understand why you care so passionately about defending BFL.  It's very bizarre.

[bcp19]

Maybe you need to go back and reread the original statement instead of paraphrasing it and making it false.  The comment was "Meanwhile, in BFL land, more product than any other company has been shipped.  More hashrate than any other company has been shipped."  Your statement says they claimed over half of the current network hash rate, which is patently false.

Nope, it's completely true.  

They did claim that most of the hashrate was from them, in fact at one point they claimed that ALL of the hashrate increase was from them, and that they were the only company shipping anything.  I'm pretty sure it was within the past month.

It's odd that you seem to think there's only one "original comment" like that was the only thing they ever said about it.

I also don't even understand what point you're trying to make.  You seem to only be arguing with people who criticize them without making any actual point at all.

If BFL is shipping the majority of Hashrate, then their customers were fucked from the very begining, even if they didn't delay.  That's what they're actually claiming.

On the other hand, if they're not shipping most of the Hashrate, then their customers have been fucked by their being nearly a year late.

Either way, they fucked their customers.

I still don't understand why you care so passionately about defending BFL.  It's very bizarre.

Hmm, you are correct, they did exaggerate on there product page there, but what company hasn't?  Each new ASIC manufacturer claims to get MORE hash or LEAST $/GH or some such fanciful claim.  Since BFL is as guilty as the rest, are YOU going to call the rest on it or just stick to BFL cause "They're the scam"... hmm?

More devices.  I don't see those little USB toys as devices, sorry.  They're a ripoff novelty device made just to screw the unknowing BTC populace.  If you added up every single USB miner ASICMiner has sold... BFL has more hash rate from their first day orders that have shipped.  I've already said I bet BFL is closer to 7,000 units shipped than the low ball numbers the haters believe.  I personally believe that number COULD be well over 10,000, but that number is from a fair amount of speculation.

I love that statement I bolded above... I've pointed that out so many time to the people whining about 'potential profits lost' and yet you are one of the first ones to admit it would happen.  Yep, so many customers ordered SO many units that they essentially fucked themselves... BUT!  It's BFL's fault for accepting the orders.  ASICMiner is the one that has TRULY fleeced people by using a shortage to sell at insane prices.  But since Gas companies raise prices in expectation of increased demands over holiday weekends and motels triple their rates if a convention or highly advertised event like the Daytona 500 and etc, etc, etc.... it is obviously OK to screw people over monetarily and get away with it.

[Syke]

If BFL is shipping the majority of Hashrate, then their customers were fucked from the very begining, even if they didn't delay.

I love that statement I bolded above... I've pointed that out so many time to the people whining about 'potential profits lost' and yet you are one of the first ones to admit it would happen.  Yep, so many customers ordered SO many units that they essentially fucked themselves.

Wrong again. They were due to ship in October, and had maybe 100 TH/s of pre-orders. Had they shipped every single unit on time on the same day, every customer would have made a killing on ROI. Instead, they delayed and delayed, allowing several competitors to crank up the network hashrate and eliminate any hope of BFL's products making ROI.

[lucasjkr]

They claim that most of the hashrate increase is caused by them. If that is true, it means they took so many orders that if they shipped them on time their customers would never make much back on their investment, without price increases.

So what is it that motivates people to come on here and vociferously defend them?  If it's the case that most of the hashrate increases are due to their shipping units, then their customers were fucked all along.

Yes. The difference in returns you'd get if you were the 1st person ordering a jalapeño versus being the 50,000th would be enourmous. They're not under an obligation to only ship products that can hash profitably, whether counting all their other orders or not. Just as asicminer ships thousands upon thousands of USB block eruptors that will likely never earn a positive return. All they are doing is offering a certain haahrate for sale and leaving it to the customer to decide of the price offered is worth it based on their own knowledge and projections. If they choose to ignore the effect that many other similar orders will have on the network, that's not Bfl's fault.

As for your other point, I throw up a defense because so many people seem so blinded by greed that they put out arguments that make little sense.

Ie, the person demanding a refund of an equal amount of bitcoins as they sent in originally, even though they knew they were buying a dollar denominated product. The people saying a monarch is a terrible buy because it won't reach break even (which, while it might be true, would therefore imply that every ASIC should be avoided, since bfl typically offers the most hashes per dollar, meaning any other competitors product will be even more unlikely to pay for itself), for starters. In this case, the implied argument that they have a responsibility to only ship product if its profitable at the time that it ships, when they have zero control over prices

[Ytterbium]

They claim that most of the hashrate increase is caused by them. If that is true, it means they took so many orders that if they shipped them on time their customers would never make much back on their investment, without price increases.

So what is it that motivates people to come on here and vociferously defend them?  If it's the case that most of the hashrate increases are due to their shipping units, then their customers were fucked all along.

Yes. The difference in returns you'd get if you were the 1st person ordering a jalapeño versus being the 50,000th would be enourmous.

Not if they shipped 50k on the same day, or even in the same week or so.  2016 blocks would be found almost immediately and then there'd be a huge diff jump. 50k Jalapenos would be 300TH. About the hashrate at the beginning of this month.

They're not under an obligation to only ship products that can hash profitably, whether counting all their other orders or not. Just as asicminer ships thousands upon thousands of USB block eruptors that will likely never earn a positive return.

So, they're not under obligation not to fuck their customers? Why would you defend a company fucking it's customers, simply because they're not "obligated" to refrain?  Maybe not illegal but certainly not ethical.

At least with the block erupters people know what the hashrate and difficulty growth will look like when they get them, since they'll be getting them right away. A lot of people buy them just for fun.

All they are doing is offering a certain haahrate for sale and leaving it to the customer to decide of the price offered is worth it based on their own knowledge and projections. If they choose to ignore the effect that many other similar orders will have on the network, that's not Bfl's fault.

Of course it's BFL's fault. They had faulty information because BFL withheld that information. That was no way to know what effect the other orders would have because BFL chose not to share that information with them.  Which is why I decided not to order from them last year, and went with Avalon instead (I have a batch 2 that's already paid for itself in BTC)

You're basically claiming that everyone who didn't make the same decision I did was an idiot who deserved to lose their money to BFL.

As for your other point, I throw up a defense because so many people seem so blinded by greed that they put out arguments that make little sense.

Ie, the person demanding a refund of an equal amount of bitcoins as they sent in originally, even though they knew they were buying a dollar denominated product.

My batch 2 Avalon has already paid for itself in BTC.  The only reason I bought a miner was to increase the amount of BTC I had.

The people saying a monarch is a terrible buy because it won't reach break even (which, while it might be true, would therefore imply that every ASIC should be avoided, since bfl typically offers the most hashes per dollar, meaning any other competitors product will be even more unlikely to pay for itself), for starters. In this case, the implied argument that they have a responsibility to only ship product if its profitable at the time that it ships, when they have zero control over prices.

What the fuck are you talking about?  Of course the monarch is a terrible fucking buy!  Why the fuck would anyone buy something that won't ROI?  Are you smoking crack?

BFL has already said the majority of orders won't get anything until January or Feburary.  You do understand that the date you receive your item makes an enormous difference in terms of profitability, right?

If you order a KnC, you can cancel your order and get a refund whenever you want, until they ship your unit.  You can even pay with a credit card and do a chargeback if they don't give it to you.

If you get a HashFast there is a "miner protection plan" where you get extra chips if you fail to ROI in 90 days. And, if they don't ship by January 1st, they'll give you a full refund. I actually think HashFast is a bad deal overall.  But you'll almost certainly get a unit from them earlier then BFL and if not you'll get a refund anyway.

So of course the monarch is a terrible deal and they're completely taking advantage of idiots when they sell them.

You can't argue on the one hand that people bought from BFL are idiots who deserved to lose their money, and that BFL has zero obligation to not fuck their customers, and then say on the other hand that people order a monarch somehow aren't idiots who are about to get fucked, hard, by BFL.

[bcp19]

Not if they shipped 50k on the same day, or even in the same week or so.  2016 blocks would be found almost immediately and then there'd be a huge diff jump. 50k Jalapenos would be 300TH. About the hashrate at the beginning of this month.

I can see it now "WHY THE FUCK AREN'T YOU SHIPPING?!?!?!?"  "Well, to be fair, we're building everything and shipping it all at once"  "THAT'S FUCKING STUPID!!!  I LIVE HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD!!! YOU'RE FAVORING US CUSTOMERS!!!!  ASSHOLES!!!!"

So, they're not under obligation not to fuck their customers? Why would you defend a company fucking it's customers, simply because they're not "obligated" to refrain?  Maybe not illegal but certainly not ethical.

At least with the block erupters people know what the hashrate and difficulty growth will look like when they get them, since they'll be getting them right away. A lot of people buy them just for fun.

RoI is the fiction of the greedy.  If difficulty is 1,000,000,000 when you get your unit, simply REFUSE to sell at current prices that equal a loss.  If more and more people do this, the pirice WILL rise.  On the other hand, you are saying it's quite alright to fuck over the customer if there is such an artificially high demand and you charge then $1,000,000 for less hash than a mini-rig costing $30k.  SURE you get them in hand NOW, but damn you got ass-raped in the process.

Of course it's BFL's fault. They had faulty information because BFL withheld that information. That was no way to know what effect the other orders would have because BFL chose not to share that information with them.  Which is why I decided not to order from them last year, and went with Avalon instead (I have a batch 2 that's already paid for itself in BTC)

Yet again, the greedy persons view of the world.  If BFL had the morals of ASICMiner, after the first week of orders and seeing the demand, they'd have raised prices by at least 4-20 times to stagnant the demand, but then whoever missed out on that first week would be screaming THEY got fucked.  BFL is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

You're basically claiming that everyone who didn't make the same decision I did was an idiot who deserved to lose their money to BFL.

Yes.  From your seeming thinking that ASICMiner is justified fleecing people, then those that did not do there research got what they deserved.  That is your position on the fools paying 2BTC for a USB stick, right?

My batch 2 Avalon has already paid for itself in BTC.  The only reason I bought a miner was to increase the amount of BTC I had.

 Ah, the old I paid BTC for BTC flawed argument.  I'm no longer dignifying this with an answer.

What the fuck are you talking about?  Of course the monarch is a terrible fucking buy!  Why the fuck would anyone buy something that won't ROI?  Are you smoking crack?

If you listen to the shills on the ASICMiner posts, RoI != profit.  RoI is simply Return ON investment.  EVERY MINER HAS AN ROI, some just have a HIGHER RoI than others.  Using your flawed BTC argument, you'll never attain MORE BTC than you spend unless the network has reached saturation, so you should never again buy another new product.

<snip> [/quote]can't take any more ignorance.

[xstr8guy]

can't take any more ignorance.

I personally thank you for your well-reasoned arguments.  But you'll be much happier and live longer if you just use the wonderful "ignore" feature of this forum. 

[dell123]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

[lucasjkr]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

A) the number of Avalon's released is a small fraction of the number shipped from BFL. People ordered BFL because Avalon didn't have product to ship.

B) their prices are far more price-competitive than Avalon's.

Not saying that people that went the Avalon route did bad. Indeed, they did great. But both routes were untested, the outcomes unknown in 2012. As for today? What can you order from Avalon? Anything besides raw chips? And aren't those having difficulty reaching their destination (not FUD, trully sounds like that's been the case).

[xstr8guy]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

How are those batch #3 Avalons coming along? 

[bcp19]

can't take any more ignorance.

I personally thank you for your well-reasoned arguments.  But you'll be much happier and live longer if you just use the wonderful "ignore" feature of this forum. 

While I understand your point, I feel my own internal ignore feature works well enough.  I think this says it best though: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281936.msg3018470#msg3018470

[erk]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

How are those batch #3 Avalons coming along?  

Doing well it seems, some people are reporting 95GH/s from them. 95GH/s mining now, is quite likely worth more than 600GH/s mining in Feb 2014.

[creativex]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

How are those batch #3 Avalons coming along?  

Splendid thanks. They overclock like madmen...



I have results from 2 more batch3s, 2 batch2s, and 4 batch1s if you're interested.

Edit: In case you're having trouble making that out, it says 112GH/s from a unit sold as an 87Gh/s rig.

[PuertoLibre]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

How are those batch #3 Avalons coming along?  

Splendid thanks. They overclock like madmen...



I have results from 2 more batch3s, 2 batch2s, and 4 batch1s if you're interested.

I am interested? What is the thread link?

If you overclock a BFL unit "that much" you would probably burn a hole through the table, carpet and then the subfloor or basement foundation. Might even become a china syndrome. (Well if the chord lasts that long)

[Flying Hellfish]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

How are those batch #3 Avalons coming along? 

Quite well, some people are reporting 95GH/s from them.

And the longer BFL takes to fill all backorders and the longer Avalon bulk chips are delayed the more profit B3 owners will reap, not to mention if KNC, HF, CT et all are delayed as well.

[creativex]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

A) the number of Avalon's released is a small fraction of the number shipped from BFL. People ordered BFL because Avalon didn't have product to ship.

*ANY* proof at all? ...or is this just re-hashing BFL's COO's fairy dust nonsense? As BFL refuses to issue numbers I'd be very interested in seeing your detailed breakdown upon which you made the above statement.

B) their prices are far more price-competitive than Avalon's.

Unless of course you factor in lead time. Then BFL's prices flat out suck and you'd likely have made much more by ordering from Avalon than BFL. You don't see many batch 1 or batch 2 pre-order customers complaining do you? Why do you suppose that is?

Not saying that people that went the Avalon route did bad. Indeed, they did great. But both routes were untested, the outcomes unknown in 2012. As for today? What can you order from Avalon? Anything besides raw chips? And aren't those having difficulty reaching their destination (not FUD, trully sounds like that's been the case).

Both outcomes were unknown in 2012, though both companies had FPGA products in the wild and one of those companies already had a history of deceit. If you sent equal funds to both companies in 2012 which do you suppose made you the highest ROI? How about 2013?

[creativex]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

How are those batch #3 Avalons coming along?  

Splendid thanks. They overclock like madmen...

I have results from 2 more batch3s, 2 batch2s, and 4 batch1s if you're interested.

I am interested? What is the thread link?

If you overclock a BFL unit "that much" you would probably burn a hole through the table, carpet and then the subfloor or basement foundation. Might even become a china syndrome. (Well if the chord lasts that long)

Sadly BFL stuff is not easily overclockable. I'm averaging about 715Gh/s from 1 minirig SC and 4 Singles(think 12 singles), but they're *HOT* and require 10x the attention the 9 Avalons do. I have two AC units cooling them(32k BTU) and they still overwhelm the ACs during the day.

[bcp19]

Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.

How are those batch #3 Avalons coming along?  

Splendid thanks. They overclock like madmen...

I have results from 2 more batch3s, 2 batch2s, and 4 batch1s if you're interested.

I am interested? What is the thread link?

If you overclock a BFL unit "that much" you would probably burn a hole through the table, carpet and then the subfloor or basement foundation. Might even become a china syndrome. (Well if the chord lasts that long)

Sadly BFL stuff is not easily overclockable. I'm averaging about 715Gh/s from 1 minirig SC and 4 Singles(think 12 singles), but they're *HOT* and require 10x the attention the 9 Avalons do. I have two AC units cooling them(32k BTU) and they still overwhelm the ACs during the day.

How much power does it take to run the avalons when they are that overclocked?