BFL announces 28nm 600GH/S blade for $4680

[frankenmint]

It is not even a prototype correct? No gerbers? No BOM even? Just a drawing... what more can you say about it? Other than taking specifications they claim it will have and doing an analysis and then determining whether or not it is a good buy correct?

There's a lot to consider.  Pre-orders are open now (Yes, I know BFL's history, no need to discuss further) and early adopters of new ASIC technology have often been greatly rewarded for taking some extra risk.  I'm taking that little extra risk and have converted an April pre-order for a Monarch.  And now I want to read what other people think, specifically about the Monarch and not about BFL's well-documented history.

And since when do we wait to talk about a future ASIC product?  It's pretty obvious to me that any new ASIC announcement generates lots of interest and is immediately a hot topic.

Given what Death is saying in a comparison of the Asicminer Blades vs. 2012 BFL Products that have yet to ship... you might want to really rethink whether or not the Monarch has any value other than a thought experiment into a PCIe miner, seems to be hard to say anymore than that right? Forgive me but doesn't BFL have a forum for all this information. Why would anyone come here to get updated info on this product should you not go to the source?

BitcoinTalk has a larger audience.  But I do read and post in BFL's forum too.  I like to get as much information as possible.

Yes larger and why we need to make sure that everyone is properly informed almost page per page on each thread in case they are new and miss the important tidbits that you might know but they may not. It be different say that a company was transparent and truthful in every post but obviously given what has happened in the past there are plenty of people looking out for the interests of the larger audience. Again if we had a subforum where information and the tone was PROFESSIONALLY kept then there would be no need to continually pop into a thread and set the record straight or inform people of the dangers.

You must recognize that and given there is NO INFO about this unit and that it is just claims and speculation at this post probably should be filed in a section that is not custom hardware but something that will be coming to market and warning labels BOLDLY affixed to it to protect people from the potential damages it may cause to the bitcoin economy because of past performance. We need a better system than we have currently for these sorts of posts from these types of companies but until that happens I guess we all have to deal with the discord it causes. If one is going to post vapourware... then you should be allowed to be highly skeptical on pretty much every page of the thread. Sorry it is only fair given the poor record for delivery.

how many times has a knc rep come around to cuss you out? (bitcoinorama doesnt count )  none
how many times does Friedcat come around to cuss you out?  none
how many times does hashfast come around to cuss you out?  none
how many times does Terrahash come around to cuss you out? none
how many times does Yifu come around to cuss you out?   NONE

Therefore, it begs the question, What were you thinking or total lack thereof?  If you put like that same 110% "i dont give a fuck about you or your problems" into better excuses for failure of delivery, I'd be willing to wager that you wouldn't get the level of opposition that you do.

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[Syke]

Potential heat and power concerns as well given BFL has failed each time they have come to market... another big what if they mess it up again?

No, no, Honest Abe, they won't make the same mistake twice three times.

[xstr8guy]

There's a lot to consider.  Pre-orders are open now (Yes, I know BFL's history, no need to discuss further) and early adopters of new ASIC technology have often been greatly rewarded for taking some extra risk.  I'm taking that little extra risk and have converted an April pre-order for a Monarch.  And now I want to read what other people think, specifically about the Monarch and not about BFL's well-documented history.

Let's assume that BFL does everything perfectly and ships the Monarch in Feb. It's overpriced. KnCMiner, HashFast, CoinTerra, and BitFury will have better products long before then.

I know it's wishful thinking but I have a very early pre-order.  And if indeed there is a "bullet run", I may be in it.  And that changes the ROI on the Monarch by a healthy margin.

Btw, I have orders with KnC and Bitfury too.  I'm still on the fence with CoinTerra and HashFast.

[Bicknellski]

It is not even a prototype correct? No gerbers? No BOM even? Just a drawing... what more can you say about it? Other than taking specifications they claim it will have and doing an analysis and then determining whether or not it is a good buy correct?

There's a lot to consider.  Pre-orders are open now (Yes, I know BFL's history, no need to discuss further) and early adopters of new ASIC technology have often been greatly rewarded for taking some extra risk.  I'm taking that little extra risk and have converted an April pre-order for a Monarch.  And now I want to read what other people think, specifically about the Monarch and not about BFL's well-documented history.

And since when do we wait to talk about a future ASIC product?  It's pretty obvious to me that any new ASIC announcement generates lots of interest and is immediately a hot topic.

Given what Death is saying in a comparison of the Asicminer Blades vs. 2012 BFL Products that have yet to ship... you might want to really rethink whether or not the Monarch has any value other than a thought experiment into a PCIe miner, seems to be hard to say anymore than that right? Forgive me but doesn't BFL have a forum for all this information. Why would anyone come here to get updated info on this product should you not go to the source?

BitcoinTalk has a larger audience.  But I do read and post in BFL's forum too.  I like to get as much information as possible.

Yes larger and why we need to make sure that everyone is properly informed almost page per page on each thread in case they are new and miss the important tidbits that you might know but they may not. It be different say that a company was transparent and truthful in every post but obviously given what has happened in the past there are plenty of people looking out for the interests of the larger audience. Again if we had a subforum where information and the tone was PROFESSIONALLY kept then there would be no need to continually pop into a thread and set the record straight or inform people of the dangers.

You must recognize that and given there is NO INFO about this unit and that it is just claims and speculation at this post probably should be filed in a section that is not custom hardware but something that will be coming to market and warning labels BOLDLY affixed to it to protect people from the potential damages it may cause to the bitcoin economy because of past performance. We need a better system than we have currently for these sorts of posts from these types of companies but until that happens I guess we all have to deal with the discord it causes. If one is going to post vapourware... then you should be allowed to be highly skeptical on pretty much every page of the thread. Sorry it is only fair given the poor record for delivery.

how many times has a knc rep come around to cuss you out? (bitcoinorama doesnt count )  none
how many times does Friedcat come around to cuss you out?  none
how many times does hashfast come around to cuss you out?  none
how many times does Terrahash come around to cuss you out? none
how many times does Yifu come around to cuss you out?   NONE

Therefore, it begs the question, What were you thinking or total lack thereof?  If you put like that same 110% "i dont give a fuck about you or your problems" into better excuses for failure of delivery, I'd be willing to wager that you wouldn't get the level of opposition that you do.

The moderators need to do something more in keeping with moderation particularly with Josh. It is out of hand he needs to be warned and or sanctioned there are some legitimate concerns being offered and abuse is the problem of the day right? So warn him please.

[xstr8guy]

There's a lot to consider.  Pre-orders are open now (Yes, I know BFL's history, no need to discuss further) and early adopters of new ASIC technology have often been greatly rewarded for taking some extra risk.  I'm taking that little extra risk and have converted an April pre-order for a Monarch.  And now I want to read what other people think, specifically about the Monarch and not about BFL's well-documented history.

Let's assume that BFL does everything perfectly and ships the Monarch in Feb. It's overpriced. KnCMiner, HashFast, CoinTerra, and BitFury will have better products long before then.

Potential heat and power concerns as well given BFL has failed each time they have come to market... another big what if they mess it up again?

And why is it so ridiculous to think they may have learned from past mistakes?

Btw, I know I'm being contrary to popular opinion here and I would like to thank you guys for not calling me a sock puppet or a shill... yet. 

[Syke]

And why is it so ridiculous to think they may have learned from past mistakes?

They keep repeating the same mistakes.

1. The form factor. They keep trying to cram as much heat as possible into as small an enclosure as possible. Nvidia and AMD have trouble venting so much heat in such a package. BFL now has better cooling designers than Nvidia and AMD?
2. Feature size. 28nm ASICS are much harder to get right than 65nm ASICs. Look at how long they took for 65nm and double it. That's what it's going to take.
3. Progress? Ooh, they have a 3D model of a video card. Underimpressed. Tapeout hasn't happened. There's tons to do even after they reach tapeout.
and so many more reasons.

[PuertoLibre]

There's a lot to consider.  Pre-orders are open now (Yes, I know BFL's history, no need to discuss further) and early adopters of new ASIC technology have often been greatly rewarded for taking some extra risk.  I'm taking that little extra risk and have converted an April pre-order for a Monarch.  And now I want to read what other people think, specifically about the Monarch and not about BFL's well-documented history.

Let's assume that BFL does everything perfectly and ships the Monarch in Feb. It's overpriced. KnCMiner, HashFast, CoinTerra, and BitFury will have better products long before then.

Potential heat and power concerns as well given BFL has failed each time they have come to market... another big what if they mess it up again?

And why is it so ridiculous to think they may have learned from past mistakes?

Btw, I know I'm being contrary to popular opinion here and I would like to thank you guys for not calling me a sock puppet or a shill... yet. 

You aren't much welcome on BFL forums either.

You don't qualify as a shill. I disown you.

[PuertoLibre]

There's a lot to consider.  Pre-orders are open now (Yes, I know BFL's history, no need to discuss further) and early adopters of new ASIC technology have often been greatly rewarded for taking some extra risk.  I'm taking that little extra risk and have converted an April pre-order for a Monarch.  And now I want to read what other people think, specifically about the Monarch and not about BFL's well-documented history.

Let's assume that BFL does everything perfectly and ships the Monarch in Feb. It's overpriced. KnCMiner, HashFast, CoinTerra, and BitFury will have better products long before then.

I know it's wishful thinking but I have a very early pre-order.  And if indeed there is a "bullet run", I may be in it.  And that changes the ROI on the Monarch by a healthy margin.

Btw, I have orders with KnC and Bitfury too.  I'm still on the fence with CoinTerra and HashFast.

They (BFL) had a bullet run in November-December of 2012.

That didn't do them any good. (Assuming that wasn't a lie of course.)

[Unacceptable]

And why is it so ridiculous to think they may have learned from past mistakes?

They keep repeating the same mistakes.

1. The form factor. They keep trying to cram as much heat as possible into as small an enclosure as possible. Nvidia and AMD have trouble venting so much heat in such a package. BFL now has better cooling designers than Nvidia and AMD?
2. Feature size. 28nm ASICS are much harder to get right than 65nm ASICs. Look at how long they took for 65nm and double it. That's what it's going to take.
3. Progress? Ooh, they have a 3D model of a video card. Underimpressed. Tapeout hasn't happened. There's tons to do even after they reach tapeout.
and so many more reasons.

I was in on the FPGA fiasco,BFL underestimated the power & overestimated the hashrate & were very late to deliver..........remember the "4-6 weeks™" motto 

Josh promised the ASIC era was going to be different,it was different,they were even later to deliver.Along with underestimating the power again!!! The hashrate,not so much this time.Down to "2 weeks™",but many,many,many 2 week periods 

I have no doubts the Monarch era will be the same or worse than the 65nm project 

[Bicknellski]

Until they actually have a product these posts should be moved to mining speculation right?
Custom hardware should be about something that is actually has been designed and going to fabricated right?

I see the DIYers as the proper model for posting in custom hardware. See BKK or Alten or Burning for an excellent example of what the community should see as the project moves forward.

Offer a template and then a design is built and shown then testing happens and finally boards are produced and revisions made. Companies need to offer more than a picture and made up specification taken from the air and not based on real documented components.

[nexus99]

Until they actually have a product these posts should be moved to mining speculation right?
Custom hardware should be about something that is actually has been designed and going to fabricated right?

I see the DIYers as the proper model for posting in custom hardware. See BKK or Alten or Burning for an excellent example of what the community should see as the project moves forward.

Offer a template and then a design is built and shown then testing happens and finally boards are produced and revisions made. Companies need to offer more than a picture and made up specification taken from the air and not based on real documented components.

I don't think its realistic to expect a company to provide anything more than specs for upcoming products. Intel doesn't release board designs for products, etc.
Although I do think its a good idea to have subforums dedicated to companies that are selling ASIC. So far that would be folks like Avalon, BFL, ASICMiner.

And speculation forums for KNCMiner, Hashfast, etc.

And then a DIY for people making their own boards.

[Ytterbium]

Until they actually have a product these posts should be moved to mining speculation right?
Custom hardware should be about something that is actually has been designed and going to fabricated right?

I see the DIYers as the proper model for posting in custom hardware. See BKK or Alten or Burning for an excellent example of what the community should see as the project moves forward.

Offer a template and then a design is built and shown then testing happens and finally boards are produced and revisions made. Companies need to offer more than a picture and made up specification taken from the air and not based on real documented components.

I don't think its realistic to expect a company to provide anything more than specs for upcoming products. Intel doesn't release board designs for products, etc.

Are you kidding? Of course they do.  How do you think people figure out how to build motherboards and laptops with Intel chips in them without reference designs? The whole "ultrabook" thing is just an Intel reference design. AMD does the same thing with their GPUs. (and CPUs obviously)

[nexus99]

I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.

[Bicknellski]

Until they actually have a product these posts should be moved to mining speculation right?
Custom hardware should be about something that is actually has been designed and going to fabricated right?

I see the DIYers as the proper model for posting in custom hardware. See BKK or Alten or Burning for an excellent example of what the community should see as the project moves forward.

Offer a template and then a design is built and shown then testing happens and finally boards are produced and revisions made. Companies need to offer more than a picture and made up specification taken from the air and not based on real documented components.

I don't think its realistic to expect a company to provide anything more than specs for upcoming products. Intel doesn't release board designs for products, etc.
Although I do think its a good idea to have subforums dedicated to companies that are selling ASIC. So far that would be folks like Avalon, BFL, ASICMiner.

And speculation forums for KNCMiner, Hashfast, etc.

And then a DIY for people making their own boards.

I think there should be a MINIMUM standard for declaring a new product or it should be moved to a VAPOURWARE section. Please... a picture and some napkin scrolled specs is not anything close to real design or evidence this is even a feasible concept. Take a look at what KnC and HashFast provided? Are there not actually designs? Real work on the chips they proposed? Compared to just a picture and some specs? I think we have rightly called scam on such types of posts before. Really needs to be some moderation with this regard. If it is VAPOURWARE it needs to be moved.

[Ytterbium]

I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.

Actually it was common for computer manuals to include schematics way back when.  If you're selling raw (which is what intel does) chips you obviously need to give the people you sell the chips too a board design.

[nexus99]

Just to try to draw a comparison: Would you consider the PS4 vaporware? Hundreds of millions in preorders for that box and no one has seen all the secrets inside yet.

The point is that companies typically aren't going to give away that kind of information. that is why you see all of the tear down videos for devices after they are released... so folks can figure out whats inside.

[Bicknellski]

I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.

The fact there is a DESIGN before they even prototype that means something... there is NOTHING here absolutely NOTHING why are we all accepting that this is going to ship at all... there is NO EVIDENCE it will even get off the design table.

[nexus99]

I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.

Actually it was common for computer manuals to include schematics way back when.  If you're selling raw (which is what intel does) chips you obviously need to give the people you sell the chips too a board design.

Yes, Intel is a bad comparison. I give you that one.
Manuals usually come with the product when you buy it right?
And yes, some products are designed for others to build add on modules, etc so they do release those kinds of details... but this isn't that situation.

[nexus99]

I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.

The fact there is a DESIGN before they even prototype that means something... there is NOTHING here absolutely NOTHING why are we all accepting that this is going to ship at all... there is NO EVIDENCE it will even get off the design table.

How do you know there is nothing?

[Bicknellski]

A picture and specifications pulled from the air is unacceptable as CUSTOM HARDWARE in my opinion. I can post a picture and give you a song and dance about the specs. When I post about a 50 port hub I had a actual schematic for that hub. When I posted information about a USB Bitfury Miner I posted a prototype board... isn't that the standard we want?

I have NOT SEEN ANYTHING POSTED so there is NOTHING THAT EXISTS.

There is a TEAPOT flying in orbit behind the moon. Who has the BURDEN of proof?

BFL has to prove they have SOMETHING or this stuff needs to moved to off topic or speculation. Waste of space otherwise.

I submit that BFL is talking about a cosmic teapot not an actual product. If you have something then prove it.

Code:

Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, 
is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to 
illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically 
unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the 
case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere
in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to 
believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still
referred to in discussions concerning the existence of God.