eBay update: prices coming way down

[AngelusWebDesign]

Seems the current going rate on eBay for a brand new 5830 is around $125 - $140, including shipping.

I'm looking at completed listings -- which is very important -- rather than what a few greedy sellers hope against hope to get. People can ask for $1000 all they want, but if they never get that price, the going rate isn't $1,000. Right?

I guess that explains why NewEgg still has 5830's in stock for $135 shipped. You simply can't make money at that price -- not by mining, not by reselling.

And let's not forget that even if you got $140, you have to take out eBay and Paypal fees.

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[Mousepotato]

Seems the current going rate on eBay for a brand new 5830 is around $125 - $140, including shipping.

I'm looking at completed listings -- which is very important -- rather than what a few greedy sellers hope against hope to get. People can ask for $1000 all they want, but if they never get that price, the going rate isn't $1,000. Right?

I guess that explains why NewEgg still has 5830's in stock for $135 shipped. You simply can't make money at that price -- not by mining, not by reselling.

And let's not forget that even if you got $140, you have to take out eBay and Paypal fees.

"I don't understand why people spend $500+ on a mining rig.  It's going to take you 20+ years to pay that off, if ever.  You simply can not make your money back." -- some random nay sayer circa June 2010.

[AngelusWebDesign]

First, I'd like to point out that I've been into distributed computing since 2007. Nevertheless, I didn't find out about Bitcoin until May 2011. Go figure!


Just for the sake of discussion, so is that what it comes down to then?

That the people building entire rigs today should be considered the Bitcoin "faithful"?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious.

Personally I have rigs, but I'm not expanding. I'm treating it like a business. Not a get-rich-quick business, but a business.  I mine because I enjoy it and have the talent for it, so it's not JUST a way to make money -- there are countless ways I could spend my time which would be more profitable.

On the other hand, I have no reason to believe that Bitcoin will be more valuable next month, this Fall, or next year. I have no scientific reason to believe that. For business purposes, I'm planning on "more of the same" -- which is 10% difficulty increases every 10-12 days, and a Bitcoin price around $15.

And when I see payoff periods greater than 70 days, I run the other way.

Matthew

[Mousepotato]

Just for the sake of discussion, so is that what it comes down to then?

That the people building entire rigs today should be considered the Bitcoin "faithful"?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious.

When has mining NOT been for the Bitcoin faithful?  1+ years ago people were mining when mining represented a net LOSS in revenue due to running costs.  They'd spend a few hundred on hardware and electricity and come away with a few thousand BTC worth maybe $50, IF that.  If you could travel back in time, would you still give them the same advice you are now?

[DrHaribo]

Availability and prices for 5970 not looking that good on ebay, though.

I bought a cheap refurbished 5970 today. Yay!

[bitebitebite]

 I would advise buying BTC with the money

[SgtSpike]

Prices are definitely dropping (5870's are getting close to $200 now), but that is to be expected when profitability is cut by 90%.

[hehu]

I don't really get the point of this thread. Anyone with half a brain can grasp the concept of supply and demand. Of course they're going down, everyone

who's mining for profit have stopped buying the cards at their current prices.

A lot of people aren't in it entirely for money so I wouldn't be all that surprised if the prices stay where they are for a while longer.

[SgtSpike]

I don't really get the point of this thread. Anyone with half a brain can grasp the concept of supply and demand. Of course they're going down, everyone

who's mining for profit have stopped buying the cards at their current prices.

A lot of people aren't in it entirely for money so I wouldn't be all that surprised if the prices stay where they are for a while longer.

I don't really get the point of this thread either.  Pretty pointless, just like many other threads created by this particular member.   

[AngelusWebDesign]

I don't really get the point of this thread. Anyone with half a brain can grasp the concept of supply and demand. Of course they're going down, everyone

who's mining for profit have stopped buying the cards at their current prices.

A lot of people aren't in it entirely for money so I wouldn't be all that surprised if the prices stay where they are for a while longer.

I don't really get the point of this thread either.  Pretty pointless, just like many other threads created by this particular member.   

Grow up, please.

[bcpokey]

lolz @ "talent" for bitcoin mining. Because it takes a ton of talent to put together a computer. If you really had "talent" for mining you wouldn't claim to expect a 10% difficulty in 10-12 days, because that makes no sense. 14/10 = 1.4 or 40% increase. 14/12 = 1.17 or 17% increase. Huge difference, neither one being 10%.

I'm glad that 5830s are down from $150 to $140, yay for whoever. Your personal obsession with 5830s is not a hallmark of all bitcoin though. I like to watch 5870s personally, as they are close to or superior to 5830s in MHash/RigCost. And you're right, they look to be dropping in price as well. So we may not see more hash spikes in the near future. Whether that is good or bad... remains to be seen.

[AngelusWebDesign]

By "talent" I mean particular suitability.

Not everyone is equally suited to do bitcoin mining.

The more of these traits you have, the better you will do at bitcoin mining:

In no particular order:
PC tech experience (the more the better) -- building, troubleshooting, repairing, configuring, drivers, and software.
Linux/scripting/programming experience (or, Windows experience if you choose to mine with Windows)
Working/being at home 24/7
Spare time
Access to supply of cheap (or at least market-priced) mining cards
Learning things quickly; good memory; above-average IQ
Knowledge of economics, budgeting, spreadsheets, markets
Having spare PCs, fans, cables, tables, network equipment, etc.
Having enough space (an entire room?) for lots of machines
Having an efficient central A/C unit
Living in area w/ little need for A/C
Living in area w/ cheap electricity

This is probably not an exhaustive list, but it gives you some idea of what I mean by "talent" -- more like "good situation for mining" combined with talent(s) useful for running a mining operation.

[OgNasty]

By "talent" I mean particular suitability.

Not everyone is equally suited to do bitcoin mining.

The more of these traits you have, the better you will do at bitcoin mining:

In no particular order:
PC tech experience (the more the better) -- building, troubleshooting, repairing, configuring, drivers, and software.
Linux/scripting/programming experience (or, Windows experience if you choose to mine with Windows)
Working/being at home 24/7
Spare time
Access to supply of cheap (or at least market-priced) mining cards
Learning things quickly; good memory; above-average IQ
Knowledge of economics, budgeting, spreadsheets, markets
Having spare PCs, fans, cables, tables, network equipment, etc.
Having enough space (an entire room?) for lots of machines
Having an efficient central A/C unit
Living in area w/ little need for A/C
Living in area w/ cheap electricity

This is probably not an exhaustive list, but it gives you some idea of what I mean by "talent" -- more like "good situation for mining" combined with talent(s) useful for running a mining operation.

I have no PC tech experience.  Can't program.  Work a full time job away from home.  Have no spare time.  Overpay for my electronics. Am not considered to have a good memory.  Have no spare PC parts.  Have 2 separate A/C units for my house (the one in the section that mines bitcoins stays off).  Live in the desert and I don't have low energy costs.

Did I mention I'm an excellent bitcoin miner and trader?  Want to know why?  It's because I'm fearless and have deep pockets. I noticed balls and bills weren't on your list.  Those 2 things are all you'll ever need, for anything.

[fascistmuffin]

I don't really get the point of this thread. Anyone with half a brain can grasp the concept of supply and demand. Of course they're going down, everyone

who's mining for profit have stopped buying the cards at their current prices.

A lot of people aren't in it entirely for money so I wouldn't be all that surprised if the prices stay where they are for a while longer.

I don't really get the point of this thread either.  Pretty pointless, just like many other threads created by this particular member.   

Grow up, please.

To be fair, he isn't making a new thread every five minutes screaming about the end of the world.

[hehu]

I think I asked a legitimate question, and your response is to grow up?

First off I think you need to drop this weird ego stroking elitist attitude. You may not intend for your posts to sound that way but I think alot of people do

and it just rubs them wrong way, myself included. It's like if I were to make a thread claiming only smart people can read and type, you're preaching to an

audience that's doing just that.

What you listed as 'talents' are nothing more than a list of things anyone interested in investing into bitcoin mining should take into consideration. Nothing

more. I'd say Ognasty has it more right far as talents go. For example, he'd be the early adopter banking on a payout while you'll sit on the sidelines ragging

on him saying he's an idiot for getting into bitcoins. You'd be the one to jump on the bandwagon when it starts looking viable. This kind of stuff happens all

the time in businesses and guess what, Ognasty profits off people who think like you. It doesn't mean you won't come out ahead, but it certainly doesn't mean

that you're somehow on the inside track of things.

[Tx2000]

Honestly, he knows what he is doing and that is trying to get people to "quit" with his faux-doom and gloom.  But you guys play into it by replying and letting his posts get more attention.  Every time we respond, it gets put to the top.  I guess at this moment in time I am guilty of it but just ignore him if you don't believe what he says and move along.

[AngelusWebDesign]

I think I asked a legitimate question, and your response is to grow up?

First off I think you need to drop this weird ego stroking elitist attitude. You may not intend for your posts to sound that way but I think alot of people do

and it just rubs them wrong way, myself included. It's like if I were to make a thread claiming only smart people can read and type, you're preaching to an

audience that's doing just that.

What you listed as 'talents' are nothing more than a list of things anyone interested in investing into bitcoin mining should take into consideration. Nothing

more. I'd say Ognasty has it more right far as talents go. For example, he'd be the early adopter banking on a payout while you'll sit on the sidelines ragging

on him saying he's an idiot for getting into bitcoins. You'd be the one to jump on the bandwagon when it starts looking viable. This kind of stuff happens all

the time in businesses and guess what, Ognasty profits off people who think like you. It doesn't mean you won't come out ahead, but it certainly doesn't mean

that you're somehow on the inside track of things.

FYI, I was talking to Sgt. Spike, not you.

Maybe "talents" was the wrong word. "Advantages", maybe?

I do understand quite well the concept of "no risk, no reward".  But the risk level has gone up considerably in the past few weeks for those buying new rigs -- that's all I'm saying.

I'm all for people who overcome obstacles. But that doesn't mean the obstacles don't exist, or that the obstacles wouldn't hinder most people.

The human spirit can overcome just about everything. It's beautiful when it does.

As they say, "The exception proves the rule." OgNasty is the exception -- the rule holds.

[AngelusWebDesign]

Honestly, he knows what he is doing and that is trying to get people to "quit" with his faux-doom and gloom.  But you guys play into it by replying and letting his posts get more attention.  Every time we respond, it gets put to the top.  I guess at this moment in time I am guilty of it but just ignore him if you don't believe what he says and move along.

Or how about we go ahead and (here's a novel idea) DISCUSS matters pertaining to Bitcoin on this Bitcoin discussion board we find ourselves on.
You and I are both free to post whatever interests us, and ignore what we couldn't care less about.

I'm not preaching a religion, I'm discussing 100% on-topic matters relevant to bitcoin mining. Faith is not required here.

If you disagree, by all means, chime in!  Tell me why! Let's get a discussion going. I have no problem with those who disagree with me.

[AngelusWebDesign]

Honestly, he knows what he is doing and that is trying to get people to "quit" with his faux-doom and gloom.  But you guys play into it by replying and letting his posts get more attention.  Every time we respond, it gets put to the top.  I guess at this moment in time I am guilty of it but just ignore him if you don't believe what he says and move along.

By the way, did you come up with this on your own, or are you just vomiting what others have said?

Really, I'm going to have to go ahead and call you out on this one.

What doom and gloom? Can you give quotes?  Can you prove that it was some kind of scaremongering, and not simple reporting of the facts?

I'm all ears...

*crickets chirping*

[Littleshop]

Honestly, he knows what he is doing and that is trying to get people to "quit" with his faux-doom and gloom.  But you guys play into it by replying and letting his posts get more attention.  Every time we respond, it gets put to the top.  I guess at this moment in time I am guilty of it but just ignore him if you don't believe what he says and move along.

By the way, did you come up with this on your own, or are you just vomiting what others have said?

Really, I'm going to have to go ahead and call you out on this one.

What doom and gloom? Can you give quotes?  Can you prove that it was some kind of scaremongering, and not simple reporting of the facts?

I'm all ears...

*crickets chirping*

It is an overly doom and gloom thread but ebay prices are coming down.  Not WAY down as he said though. 

the 5870 on the 10th and the 11th sold for between $208 and $232 with most of them being $225

Two weeks ago it was $231 to $339 with most of them being $275. 

[SgtSpike]

Honestly, he knows what he is doing and that is trying to get people to "quit" with his faux-doom and gloom.  But you guys play into it by replying and letting his posts get more attention.  Every time we respond, it gets put to the top.  I guess at this moment in time I am guilty of it but just ignore him if you don't believe what he says and move along.

Or how about we go ahead and (here's a novel idea) DISCUSS matters pertaining to Bitcoin on this Bitcoin discussion board we find ourselves on.
You and I are both free to post whatever interests us, and ignore what we couldn't care less about.

I'm not preaching a religion, I'm discussing 100% on-topic matters relevant to bitcoin mining. Faith is not required here.

If you disagree, by all means, chime in!  Tell me why! Let's get a discussion going. I have no problem with those who disagree with me.

I'd be a lot more willing to discuss things with you if you didn't start threads on the exact same topic EVERY SINGLE TIME you post.

I haven't seen a single thread started by you that didn't have to do with the unprofitably of mining.  And guess what?  I bet you're still mining. 

[AngelusWebDesign]

Honestly, he knows what he is doing and that is trying to get people to "quit" with his faux-doom and gloom.  But you guys play into it by replying and letting his posts get more attention.  Every time we respond, it gets put to the top.  I guess at this moment in time I am guilty of it but just ignore him if you don't believe what he says and move along.

Or how about we go ahead and (here's a novel idea) DISCUSS matters pertaining to Bitcoin on this Bitcoin discussion board we find ourselves on.
You and I are both free to post whatever interests us, and ignore what we couldn't care less about.

I'm not preaching a religion, I'm discussing 100% on-topic matters relevant to bitcoin mining. Faith is not required here.

If you disagree, by all means, chime in!  Tell me why! Let's get a discussion going. I have no problem with those who disagree with me.

I'd be a lot more willing to discuss things with you if you didn't start threads on the exact same topic EVERY SINGLE TIME you post.

I haven't seen a single thread started by you that didn't have to do with the unprofitably of mining.  And guess what?  I bet you're still mining.  

By the way, you just invalidated yourself because I'm pretty sure I made posts today having nothing to do with Bitcoin mining profitability. When you take the time to emphasize "EVERY SINGLE TIME" (all caps) you make it easy to throw out your whole post. 1 post by me on a different topic totally destroys your credibility.

I can't help that your mind doesn't permit you any complexity in your thinking. If you think that simplistically, I can't discuss with you, sorry. We're on two different levels apparently.

And what's your problem with me telling the truth? Mining IS less profitable than it was 1, 3 or 5 weeks ago. And I never said it was unprofitable (1 BTC for the person who can find a Bitcoin.org post where I said Bitcoin mining was no longer profitable).

Ebay prices HAVE come down. What's the problem here? You don't like the situation and you wish to take out your frustration on the messenger?

I have to start topics because you armchair gestapo types don't have the creativity to come up with new topics yourselves. Yes, some people are better at leading/starting conversations. That's a fact that's observed on all fora. As you get older, you begin to notice this more and more.

[fascistmuffin]

Yeah, I guess standing on a soapbox and trying to get everyone to think that bitcoin mining is over, disregarding basic math, ignoring simple accounting, and posting ten threads a day is quite complex.... oh wait. It's not.

[SgtSpike]

Honestly, he knows what he is doing and that is trying to get people to "quit" with his faux-doom and gloom.  But you guys play into it by replying and letting his posts get more attention.  Every time we respond, it gets put to the top.  I guess at this moment in time I am guilty of it but just ignore him if you don't believe what he says and move along.

Or how about we go ahead and (here's a novel idea) DISCUSS matters pertaining to Bitcoin on this Bitcoin discussion board we find ourselves on.
You and I are both free to post whatever interests us, and ignore what we couldn't care less about.

I'm not preaching a religion, I'm discussing 100% on-topic matters relevant to bitcoin mining. Faith is not required here.

If you disagree, by all means, chime in!  Tell me why! Let's get a discussion going. I have no problem with those who disagree with me.

I'd be a lot more willing to discuss things with you if you didn't start threads on the exact same topic EVERY SINGLE TIME you post.

I haven't seen a single thread started by you that didn't have to do with the unprofitably of mining.  And guess what?  I bet you're still mining. 

I can't help that your mind doesn't permit you any complexity in your thinking. If you think that simplistically, I can't discuss with you, sorry. We're on two different levels apparently.

The fact that you completely ignore all of the evidence I have posted in past threads of yours that mining (and even buying mining equipment) is still very profitable just makes you a troll.

A troll that has to resort to personal insults, evidently.

[AngelusWebDesign]

Honestly, he knows what he is doing and that is trying to get people to "quit" with his faux-doom and gloom.  But you guys play into it by replying and letting his posts get more attention.  Every time we respond, it gets put to the top.  I guess at this moment in time I am guilty of it but just ignore him if you don't believe what he says and move along.

Or how about we go ahead and (here's a novel idea) DISCUSS matters pertaining to Bitcoin on this Bitcoin discussion board we find ourselves on.
You and I are both free to post whatever interests us, and ignore what we couldn't care less about.

I'm not preaching a religion, I'm discussing 100% on-topic matters relevant to bitcoin mining. Faith is not required here.

If you disagree, by all means, chime in!  Tell me why! Let's get a discussion going. I have no problem with those who disagree with me.

I'd be a lot more willing to discuss things with you if you didn't start threads on the exact same topic EVERY SINGLE TIME you post.

I haven't seen a single thread started by you that didn't have to do with the unprofitably of mining.  And guess what?  I bet you're still mining. 

I can't help that your mind doesn't permit you any complexity in your thinking. If you think that simplistically, I can't discuss with you, sorry. We're on two different levels apparently.

The fact that you completely ignore all of the evidence I have posted in past threads of yours that mining (and even buying mining equipment) is still very profitable just makes you a troll.

A troll that has to resort to personal insults, evidently.

Except I haven't ignored anything. I admit to *100% of everything that's true*

Try me.

[AngelusWebDesign]

Yeah, I guess standing on a soapbox and trying to get everyone to think that bitcoin mining is over, disregarding basic math, ignoring simple accounting, and posting ten threads a day is quite complex.... oh wait. It's not.

How about I call you a ex-con every day, and see if it eventually sticks?

Because it's about as true as the BS you're alleging about me.

You just vomit what others have said, never rising above a elementary school playground level of discussion or reasoning (read: name-calling).

[fascistmuffin]

Yeah, I guess standing on a soapbox and trying to get everyone to think that bitcoin mining is over, disregarding basic math, ignoring simple accounting, and posting ten threads a day is quite complex.... oh wait. It's not.

How about I call you a ex-con every day, and see if it eventually sticks?

Because it's about as true as the BS you're alleging about me.

You just vomit what others have said, never rising above a elementary school playground level of discussion or reasoning (read: name-calling).

It only takes a few of you're doom threads to get a general idea of what your mindset is, and really easy to see that you disregard the very things I listed. There's a good reason why I don't try to discuss anything specifically with you, since every single topic started by you is all FUD and doom threads, which General section is full of. I'm sorry if you think that I have to reply to every single topic you create in order to have an opinion on this one, but luckily, for me at least, that's not how discussion forums work. I really don't know why I'm responding now, since all you do is cry when all your doom and gloom threads turn out this way.

It's also funny that you're accusing me of not being able to discuss, but you're counter argument/discussion/reply to my post was more name calling. You didn't even try to defend yourself or any of your claims. Maybe there's a reason why all of your topics result in your elementary school playground...

Here's some advice: Make a new account and stop with this nonsense. You might as well start bring up Y2K doom again at the rate you're going.

And you can try to call me an ex-con every day, but I doubt that'll go far, since you're reputation isn't the greatest around here. I also haven't done anything, maybe something along of lines of make ten threads a day about the same thing, to earn me renown like you have. I guess I'm not trying hard enough.

[mike678]

Going through the last 2 pages of your posts.

I know, by then many people will have quit. But I wouldn't be surprised if mining got a lot less profitable than it is today.

Guess what? Newsflash -- the money-making frenzy is over. BTC has dropped significantly in price, even as difficulty has increased significantly.

On the other hand, I have no reason to believe that Bitcoin will be more valuable next month, this Fall, or next year. I have no scientific reason to believe that. For business purposes, I'm planning on "more of the same" -- which is 10% difficulty increases every 10-12 days, and a Bitcoin price around $15.

And when I see payoff periods greater than 70 days, I run the other way.

Matthew

I'm not saying mining is a get rich quick scheme but you can be very negative when it comes to mining hence the sky is falling quote that keeps popping up.

Here you are contradicting your self.

Hey Sgt --

Are you one of those who thinks a 5830 is wasted unless it's OC'd to the 300+ range?

Personally, I have my 5830's bringing in about 270 MH/s each.  After all, it's not like they ARE a 300 MH/s card -- that's not exactly their stock output. I don't do aggressive OC'ing.

(2) 5830's = 600 MH/s.

You can get (2) 5830's for only $260.  That's 600 MH/s!

And here you are being a pompous ass:

Those of us who are mining for a profit are obviously decent with money and aren't likely to be struggling financially.

tl;dr - I have a job too. Enough to support a wife and 4 kids.

[tanerlorn]

Guys relax, lets all go to church and cry our eyes out thinking about when Jesus is gonna come back.


I'll tell you what would happen if Jesus came back. We would lock him up in jail and put him in the electric chair, that's what we would do.

[AngelusWebDesign]

I never contradicted myself.

I was quoting the "300 MH/s" for 5830 because people throw that number around as if it's common and everyone gets that hash rate. I personally don't get that much, because A) I don't want systems giving me problems, B) any systems I have with 2 cards close together get too hot for stable overclocking of that variety -- especially the card in the top slot.

And that last "pompous" post was taken out of context, and completely misunderstood.

Here is what I was responding to:

I went out and bought a whole new rig to mine BTC.  It will probably take me a year or more to pay it off with mining.  However, I was going to buy a new machine anyway and I have a job, so whether or not it is a good investment in your eyes means nothing to me.

Admittedly, I wouldn't have bought 2 outrageous video cards if it weren't for mining (I would have just used the onboard GPU as I'm a sound guy, not a graphics guy).  But still, I am doing it to support the project and because I wanted a new machine.  Not everyone is mining for profitability.  Hell, I don't even sell my coins that I mine...  You greedy profit hungry buy every GPU available to make a profit miners are going to get squeezed by hoarders like me who will mine at any price or difficulty with the expectation of higher BTC prices several years from now.  The funny part is, the cheap GPUs that will eventually be for sale, will come from people like you.  Not the people like me who are buying overpriced GPUs that won't return a profit.     We have jobs and will outlast you.

Sgt. Spike:
Who exactly are you talking to when you say "people like you"?  Because I can guarantee you there aren't 50TH/s worth of people who will mine at a loss, which is about what it would take to push out those of us who are mining for the profit and have efficient GPU's and decent electric costs.