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Author Topic: The Problem With Altcoins  (Read 16458 times)
AnonyMint
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November 12, 2013, 02:07:59 PM
Last edit: November 12, 2013, 02:38:35 PM by AnonyMint
 #181

Readers should also view the bottom of the prior page of this thread, as we were having a separate interesting discussion there which I replied to just a few minutes before this following post.

This is another reason I think Bitcoin was designed to be the one-world digital currency controlled from Brussels. I think Bitcoin was planted by the elite, and not some fictional person "Satoshi".

Don't you think this a really long shot?

Strange that we agree with that much although our conclutions are 100% different.

Well I am coming around more to your point-of-view, because if it is true that altcoins can compete, then such an experiment with Bitcoin will have failed for the elite, except if we consider...

Yes the masses will accept the cartels and government takeover converting Bitcoin to a fiat, as long as the masses get their goods and services.
A "crypto" run by goverments could replace bitcoin since most people (including me) don't have such an extreme worldview like you.

I don't expect fiat to be replaced by bitcoin or any other system unless it fails catastrophically. This would require more than just EUR,USD to loose all of it's value. I find it even more unlikely that goverments will try (or even succeed) to change bitcoin to fiat like crypto. Not going to happen.

On the other hand would it possible (and more favourable for gov) to lauch a pseudo crypto as alternative. A 1:1 fixing with that nations fiat system could be acepted by most people. Will be interresting to see how much anonymity people will be willing to sacrifice, but I expect that to be enourmous. Like todays currencies it will be a legal tender so you will be forced to accept it by law.

Such fiat crypto would be a serious thread for bitcoin and her sisters ...

Bitcoin was clearly designed to fail around 2033 or so when payment for mining dries up and due to the issue that transactions can be withheld (transaction withholding attack). 2033 is also the year that Armstrong's very reliable historical Pi model (repeating cycles that match up with history since Mesopotamia) predicts this global crisis will have ended and the reset will be done.

I don't see what can be done to fix this issue in Bitcoin. Perpetual debasement (the solution) is frowned upon by goldbugs who don't understand well. The vested interests in Bitcoin would never support such a change. And there is no fix that is possible with tx fees, not even making them mandatory will work.

So appears to me the elite plan to offer a fiat solution to the broken Bitcoin around 2033 or so. Bitcoin will be effectively centralized by that time, so should be easy to morph into a fiat.

Our chance with altcoins is to gain enough market share that not all people are willing to use that solution which the governments will offer when they reset the financial system.

The elite are clearly taking the world towards a major crisis, given they refuse to allow debt to contract and are increasing debt every where, to astronomical levels, e.g. total debt in the UK is 550% of GDP and increasing. Please see my documentation of this:

http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/11855-total-debt-to-gdp.html#axzz2iu5C4Y4Z

http://blog.mpettis.com/2013/10/hidden-debt-must-still-be-repayed/#comment-3179

http://blog.mpettis.com/2013/10/hidden-debt-must-still-be-repayed/#comment-3549

http://blog.mpettis.com/2013/10/hidden-debt-must-still-be-repayed/#comment-3687

Thus it appears the elite plan on massive chaos in order to get the nations to give up sovereignty to a world-government which can provide a solution to the mess.

Thus our opportunity with altcoins is to provide a solution sooner than they do.

I hope you understand that debt is future taxation because debt is always paid by some sector. Debt is misallocation of human resources. The longer you increase it, the worse the failure of the economy when the writedowns finally come.

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rpietila
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November 12, 2013, 03:20:25 PM
 #182

I wouldn't trust them. Not reporting your stuff to the authorities and not being anonymous means jail time and bankruptcy in this coming G20 crackdown as the sovereigns go into sovereign debt crisis spiral.
...
There is no viability for freedom with Bitcoin. It is going to kill all freedom long-term, even though it provides the illusion of increasing freedom short-term while the incriminating evidence mounts in the public ledger.

I think it is insane to use a non-anonymous coin like Bitcoin.

I don't want to say that you are too pessimistic, AnonyMint, but let's say what works for you, is not feasible for the majority.

Wise people such as Julian Assange know the actual dynamics. It is not so black-and-white, even the vilest administrations need to take into account the public opinion. Governments have lots of resources because we feed them, but they have very much red tape, and the divisions that do actual, harmful, things to people, are understaffed. In the age of Internet you cannot so easily plan atrocities, because maintaining secrecy is so difficult.

What the majority should in my opinion do, is to fulfill Bitcoin's adoption curve (buy bitcoins), and not fear guillotine or supermax. If your liberty is based not on what you feel is right, but rather what you believe you can do in secret, it is not much of a liberty anymore. Bitcoin is a huge chance to make the world more free, especially as it looks like that it will hit its maximum value (not maximum adoption) already about 2016, which will be a huge shift in resource allocation. We need to redeem the time to network with other bitcoin powercenters and show the world that we bring peace and prosperity. Not fearing for our imagined anonymity and unwilling to spend. United we are strong, spreading FUD like the quoted part does not bring any good. (Yes, government does kill intellectuals without due process, but you and I are both alive, proving that it does not happen so often that a general warning is necessary).

This is a good "dystopia" read. I am sure we can make the future better than that, though.

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AnonyMint
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November 12, 2013, 03:57:49 PM
 #183

The NSA is actively attacking Tor:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/04/nsa-gchq-attack-tor-network-encryption

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/04/tor-attacks-nsa-users-online-anonymity

http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/oct/04/tor-stinks-nsa-presentation-document

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/10/how_the_nsa_att.html

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AnonyMint
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November 12, 2013, 04:19:07 PM
Last edit: November 12, 2013, 05:05:11 PM by AnonyMint
 #184

Your problem friend is you refuse to accept that the mathematical reality that the world is bankrupt and that there must be an adjustment that will impoverish many people. By refusing to accept this reality, you illogically demand a fairy-tale outcome.

Disclosure, rpietila publicly boasts of owning 10,000 BTC. Great for him, but it means he has a vested interest to not be logical and objective. I own no BTC, so I have a vested interest against BTC and for something that would rise from a low value, e.g. an altcoin. My success on that depends on my objectiveness, since it certainly won't happen from my cheerleading.

I wouldn't trust them. Not reporting your stuff to the authorities and not being anonymous means jail time and bankruptcy in this coming G20 crackdown as the sovereigns go into sovereign debt crisis spiral.
...
There is no viability for freedom with Bitcoin. It is going to kill all freedom long-term, even though it provides the illusion of increasing freedom short-term while the incriminating evidence mounts in the public ledger.

I think it is insane to use a non-anonymous coin like Bitcoin.

I don't want to say that you are too pessimistic, AnonyMint, but let's say what works for you, is not feasible for the majority.

Yes that "not feasible for the majority" is the salient point (and it applies to both anonymity and the ability to move from bankrupt fiat to something that sustains value past the coming implosion).

But in the history of the world, the majority always destroys themselves. Did you not see the chart I posted upthread of the fall of Rome from 1.4 million to less than 30,000 for 1000+ years.

Everyone simply abandoned civilization, because the government was oppressing everyone. This is what happens when the majority depend on the government to tax (i.e. steal) at higher than the Laffer rate. Europe is already at double to triple the Laffer rate. France's Hollande is pushing for 4x the Laffer rate which is eugenics if they succeed, similar to Hitler's culling of the weak to sustain the bankrupt universal health system of Germany at that time.

That is not sustainable and it always ends in a bloodbath throughout history.

So as a wealthy person, you have to protect yourself against what is the natural outcome of society over and over again throughout history.

Wise people such as Julian Assange know the actual dynamics.

Assange is a propaganda tool of the elite. The hegelian dialectic stands out like a sore thumb if you are aware of the propaganda methods employed by the elite.

In short, a thesis-antithesis (sort of like the good guy, bad guy employed by 2 cars salesmen to get you to trust the "good" one) to make us believe we can save ourselves via the collective. This works until the very end where everything collapses and those who were relying on the collective go down with the Titanic.

It is not so black-and-white, even the vilest administrations need to take into account the public opinion. Governments have lots of resources because we feed them, but they have very much red tape, and the divisions that do actual, harmful, things to people, are understaffed. In the age of Internet you cannot so easily plan atrocities, because maintaining secrecy is so difficult.

Nothing needs to be planned. The global financial system is bankrupt and it will collapse unto itself and the masses will demand the government to tax and spend to the death spiral.

What the majority should in my opinion do, is to fulfill Bitcoin's adoption curve (buy bitcoins), and not fear guillotine or supermax.

The majority can do nothing to save themselves. Once they try to move to an asset that could really survive the global write-down of debt, then the entirely system will collapse and they won't be able to get into that asset in time. Only a very small % can make it out of the implosion. This is mathematically unarguable. You know the math, we've spoken before.

If your liberty is based not on what you feel is right, but rather what you believe you can do in secret, it is not much of a liberty anymore.

It is the only liberty you will have as the system implodes, which is 100% guaranteed.

Edit#3: Don't think you will be able to buy protection against an angry globe (see the article you linked below).

Those who trust the majority (socialism) will always be taught a lesson in mathematics.

Bitcoin is a huge chance to make the world more free, especially as it looks like that it will hit its maximum value (not maximum adoption) already about 2016, which will be a huge shift in resource allocation.

There is no way the socialism will not fight back. Once the adoption rate reaches the size that it impacts on the real economy, then the $quadrillion in debt derivatives will domino contagion. Thus the socialism will fight back confiscating left and right.

Do you think the bankrupt socialism is just going to go quietly into the night? The billion boomers who are in retirement are going to give up their health care and retirement and live in destitution quietly? Hell no. There will be war first.

Just look at the math of the debt situation in the world today and the derivatives. This is a hidden time bomb of global proportions.

We need to redeem the time to network with other bitcoin powercenters and show the world that we bring peace and prosperity.

I don't understand your proposal, but there is nothing you can do to bring peace to a bankrupt globe. You must first allow the write-downs, which brings at least 1 - 2 years of poverty, then you can rebuild. But society never agrees, and insteads fights and so you end up with 2 more world wars and decades of suffering.

It ALWAYS goes this way. ALWAYS. Study history.

It is NEVER different this time, even though the socialists always think it will be.

Not fearing for our imagined anonymity and unwilling to spend. United we are strong,

United you are the Titantic.

How much you want to wager? And where you can store that wager so I will be surely paid when you lose? (in short there is no such place to place a future's bet, it will all be subject to counter-party risk, even physical gold and silver as I've found out through personal experience as you well know)

Readers please realize I am talking with a long-time friend here. Yet he is socialist and I am free market (Libertarian minanarchist). Who will be correct?

At one time, he supported silver as money and so did I so we became friends (and still are), so I was under the impression he was a Libertarian, but now I've come to realize he wants a socialist solution.

spreading FUD like the quoted part does not bring any good. (Yes, government does kill intellectuals without due process, but you and I are both alive, proving that it does not happen so often that a general warning is necessary).

Your FUD is my truth. I study history. I don't think it is different this time, because it never is in history. I understand Olsen capture. I understand bankruptcy, write-downs, and social inertia.

This is a good "dystopia" read. I am sure we can make the future better than that, though.

Will read.

Note he writes:

Quote
I own a few bitcoins, and I intend to keep them until I find a more attractive investment (that is, I want to invest in whatever replaces bitcoin or builds on top of it).

EDIT: yes the writer understands very well what I am saying about society will confiscate Bitcoin,

Quote
If you are involved in Bitcoin now, you should prepare to be almost universally hated someday.

And they will be able to, because you are not anonymous in the Bitcoin public ledger and Bitcoin mining will become ever more centralized. You might claim it is a good thing to let society steal some of your BTC in order to accomplish the coming global write-down in a less painful manner, but the problem is that stealing destroys capital (human resources) and thus makes the coming global implosion worse and last longer.

The least painful road forward is for the smartest capital to hide itself anonymously, so that the global system can reset in the shortest possible time with the least theft of capital, thus preserving the knowledge makers of the economy and moving the globe back towards prosperity the fastest. Society will fight this fast method, because it is so sharp and painful for a couple of years. But this is our best option. Bitcoin won't help us achieve it, but an altcoin might.

You are depending on the majority for your outcome. You have not gained any decentralization nor improved anything for mankind.

EDIT#2: As yes, that writer understands what I wrote in this post, so he and I agree:

Quote
For our first thought experiment, let’s imagine a world where distributed currencies like bitcoin have become wildly successful due to technological advances which make them easy to use and completely stable. In this world government-issued money is as good as dead. It may take a few years for everyone to realize it, but there will come a point when the ever-increasing outflows of money from fiat money into untaxable, unseizable decentralized currency will reach a tipping point, and we’ll have a financial panic like the world has never seen. Frightened lawmakers and banks will try to stop people from cashing out, but that will just increase the panic. Those who don’t get out before the door closes will be in dire straits indeed. This is the ultimate bank run — the run on the world’s central banks, and who could possibly step in and restore order?

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AnonyMint
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November 12, 2013, 04:50:45 PM
 #185

Btw, if you see a new altcoin that is being attacked with words by those who have a lot invested in Bitcoin, that should be an indication that the new altcoin is very good and a serious threat to Bitcoin. They won't bother to attack it otherwise. They will find all sorts of things to make you afraid to adopt it, such as how immature the implementation is, etc.. And everyone who doesn't adopt it, will be kicking themselves later.

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November 12, 2013, 05:14:02 PM
 #186

Bitcoin was clearly designed to fail around 2033 or so when ...

The first problem for us here is what to consider failure to go further.
Or better what we 2 both would consider failure to be precise.

I don't think we would (obvious extremes excluded) agree on fail/win on many outcomes that could happen. Not many people in bitcoin here would agree with me on this either, but I don't arguing to win an argumentation or to change any opinions exept my own.


Myself, and most people outside bitcoin, don't see centralisation and gov controlled fiat as the devil. Once people make their first thoughts about fiat some begin to see just the nasty sides of it, but first impressions aren't always right. Someone smart can also spend his whole life thinking about economics and still get it worse and worse. That's the problem with economics as science, two people can devote their life to it and still won't end at the same viewpoint if they are just equally smart enough.


I like the dept system, fiat and capitalism, although I know their flaws all to well. IMHO they are NOT fundamentally fucked up (like communism is), but there are some parameters you are not supposed to mess with. Unfortunately we can't leave our fingers from exactly these parameters. Printing new money for no rational reason is one of them.

Bitcoin can't be abused by "generate 10MBTC because it's too expensive for exports now" or any other bullshit justification from a few hundred to make them even wealthier by screwing the rest. Miners don't generate new bitcoins, they are allowed to compete for ones already known by the market and exactly when . I think that's too restrictive than necessary, but far better than the current interpretation of fiat by central banks which will destroy USD,EUR,... and the wealth of billions of people.


I see crypto currencies as the first way mankind discoverd to prevent us to change our decisions made on how to handle these parameters. Real changes in a way that actually changes something to a cryptoprotocoll are extreme hard to make and every crypto is more likely to fail than to change. Once a set of rules has been agreed on we are most likely to stick to it since changes here are extreme expensive for an economy. It will be very extreme hard to decide on one valid set of rules to handle these parameters. The last time we faced a similiar decisition was capitalism vs communism. That was damm nasty back then and nearly ended in a draw. Both dead, or better said all dead.

Bitcoin has the first non changeable set of rules we could choose money to be. I belive it's among the most fucked up sets possible and it's (not technical or code whise) implementation sucks, f.e. rewarding early adopters like us all so extreme.


Wow, can't belive I got there just from the quote above.
Sorry for long post in wrong thread, but I don't want to start a new topic.


Btw, if you see a new altcoin that is being attacked with words by those who have a lot invested in Bitcoin, that should be an indication that the new altcoin is very good and a serious threat to Bitcoin. They won't bother to attack it otherwise. They will find all sorts of things to make you afraid to adopt it, such as how immature the implementation is, etc.. And everyone who doesn't adopt it, will be kicking themselves later.
It's wrong to conclude anything from the amount of negative feedback without considering quality of feedback at all.

People bashing altcoins because they are biased ("those who have a lot invested in Bitcoin") should be ignored only, they mislead.
Idiotic or biased feedback is sort of alike, but you wouldn't be whise to do always the oposite of an idiot. He could sometimes be right too.


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