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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 142716 times)
JayJuanGee
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January 28, 2018, 09:17:39 PM
 #1741

150 additional merits to go from full member to senior member seems excessive and unfair frankly to those of us that were almost there.  It will take years to reach that.  

How cute...I am a potential Legendary member (only missing the post count) and I got only 500 Merit instead of 1000.

So be happy that you only got screwed by less then 150  Cheesy

Well B4RF, you have been a forum member almost as long as me, so you are correct that your post count has caused you to not move up in ranks, and if you had been at least minimally active in ever two week activity period, you would have earned enough activity points to have become legendary a year ago (something like that).  

So, yeah, none of us knew this change was coming, but those of us who remained active benefited by this unexpected change based on activity level (which includes posting regularly).

I was actually active for many more periods then my activity is shown I think but I simply didnt do a ratio of 1 post per day.

And I dont really understand why a higher post ratio makes you more likely to be able to spread merit to others but yeah nobody knew this would come around so I guess everyone missing a rank by some posts needs to go along with it.

Btw I am not moaning since I dont really need the Legendary status right now since I didnt even used a signature campaign for quite some time.
I was just curious about the initial thought why this merit system has been implemented like this.

Nobody will do such a big change without spending much time about the consequences and benefits therefore I think there has to be a reason for this decision.

I think that there are a couple of points here that I could elaborate on, but I don't claim to know everything either, even if I have spent more hours on the forum.  

Regarding activity, I think that if you are averaging more than 14 posts per two weeks, then you will get all of the 14 activity points for each activity period even if you only post a couple of posts in the most recent activity period. However, when you start to go below a 14 posts per two weeks average, then you receive fewer activity points.  Something like that.   So I have mostly kept my average up above 14 per two weeks, and I think that there was only a few two week periods that I did not post anything, so I did not receive any activity points for those few two week periods.

Of course, according to OP, the amount of smerit you received was related to your current rank and the amount of activity that you had in the past year.  I believe that based on my being active for every period in the past year, I earned the maximum for my rank, which was 200 smerits.

Regarding rashness in implementing this system, it likely goes without saying that a guy like theymos doesn't achieve success in building/running such a large forum as this one without having some abilities for introspection and retrospection, so I doubt that this new merit system is built on rashness, arbitrariness or lack of weighing various possible pros and cons.

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Kavallo
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January 28, 2018, 09:31:55 PM
Merited by PoolMinor (2)
 #1742

Merit is a new system where older users can withhold merit from younger users so they can't rank up and earn all the bounties!

I don't think so, just look at this thread, a lot of higher rank members are already giving merits to lower rank members. This new method is not about hoarding bounties, this is about preserving the quality of the forum. There are a lot of forums in the internet that are already using the merit system in terms of likes and upvotes and so far it's been helping improve the quality of their forums.

Not sure you can say that at this stage though.. just because a trickle of new users in this thread (maybe 10% or so) are getting merit doesn't mean it's working. A lot are getting merit just because they are complaining that they don't have any merit and that it's unfair lol.

Out there in the wild: it may turn out that new users seldom get any merit at all.

Check this young account out..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2828014.0

right attitude, quality post.. lots of merit from lots of people.. it is working fella



Again, that is just one sample, one data point. It could even just be an anomaly.

For every one user that makes a hot post/thread and gets tons of merit. You could have 99 users who get next to nothing or anything substantial.

Two more days have passed, which have proved that this was an anomaly... and at the same time a paradigmatic example of the new non written rule.
Go through the thread and look: Low ranked don't usually get merits, unless they praise the new rules. This is not a theory, these are the facts - you could even start to make a statistics counting how many people of which rank have got X many merits and by writing what. Low ranking people have no sMerits to give or just a few. Now only high ranking member can give sMerits and they usually give them to each others or to Juniors who praise the new rules. I am afraid that the new non written rule is that if you want to rank up you have to reflect the opinion of the high ranking. Time will tell, but you have a good vision you'll see that it is already telling exactly this now. I think I don't nee to tell you where this will lead to.

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Husires
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January 28, 2018, 10:00:56 PM
 #1743

On the contrary, it seems that people are not giving out as much merit per merited post as I'd hoped. Any post that deserves to be read should get merit, and really good ones should get 10+. If people with plenty of sMerit to spare persist in giving out only a couple of merit per post, then changes will have to be made to either disincentivize sMerit hoarding or adapt to the lower amounts.

Merit sales are not an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

On the flow of merit: imagine how the (US) road network works. You have the huge interstate highways, and the gaps in-between them are filled by state highways, and the gaps in-between them are filled by county highways, etc. Merit is like that, with sources taking you 95% of the way, and the decaying sMerit filling in the gaps.
Does anyone know any more details regarding this?
Will some laws be amended?
micloop
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January 28, 2018, 10:05:12 PM
Merited by PoolMinor (2)
 #1744

I totally agree with Kavallo. This system will serve to reduce rank promotion or even turn it unfeasible. I can't imagine jr. members receiving merit points trough their posts, regardless that those who praised the rules get some, it's rare, but they get some.

So, something has to change in this system...
JayJuanGee
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January 28, 2018, 10:18:29 PM
 #1745

Merit is a new system where older users can withhold merit from younger users so they can't rank up and earn all the bounties!

I don't think so, just look at this thread, a lot of higher rank members are already giving merits to lower rank members. This new method is not about hoarding bounties, this is about preserving the quality of the forum. There are a lot of forums in the internet that are already using the merit system in terms of likes and upvotes and so far it's been helping improve the quality of their forums.

Not sure you can say that at this stage though.. just because a trickle of new users in this thread (maybe 10% or so) are getting merit doesn't mean it's working. A lot are getting merit just because they are complaining that they don't have any merit and that it's unfair lol.

Out there in the wild: it may turn out that new users seldom get any merit at all.

Check this young account out..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2828014.0

right attitude, quality post.. lots of merit from lots of people.. it is working fella



Again, that is just one sample, one data point. It could even just be an anomaly.

For every one user that makes a hot post/thread and gets tons of merit. You could have 99 users who get next to nothing or anything substantial.

Two more days have passed, which have proved that this was an anomaly... and at the same time a paradigmatic example of the new non written rule.
Go through the thread and look: Low ranked don't usually get merits, unless they praise the new rules. This is not a theory, these are the facts - you could even start to make a statistics counting how many people of which rank have got X many merits and by writing what. Low ranking people have no sMerits to give or just a few. Now only high ranking member can give sMerits and they usually give them to each others or to Juniors who praise the new rules. I am afraid that the new non written rule is that if you want to rank up you have to reflect the opinion of the high ranking. Time will tell, but you have a good vision you'll see that it is already telling exactly this now. I think I don't nee to tell you where this will lead to.


You don't need to tell us where this will lead because you are full of shit.

Look.  This system has only been in place for a bit more than 4 days, and you are already spouting off a lot of stupid-ass conspiracy theories based on flimsy evidence.

Sure, you are likely correct that in the end that there are some biases towards any members with smerits giving those smerits to other members that they already know, but that is not a complete loss on the forum, because the receipt of those smerits do generate more smerits (at a 50% rate), so yeah, sometimes it can take a large number of posts for a newbie to get known, and members may not want to give smerits based on one post, but instead after they see a pattern of good posts. 

These kinds of patterns and building of credibility take time, it is not merely a reflection of one or two posts, and the past few days, I have been attempting to send smerits, and sometimes i have given those smerits merely on a kind of whim, and other times, I hesitate to send, and watch for further posts from the member before sending smerits.  So in other words, it can take time to both get a sense of another member (and their quality or lack of) and there can be some reservation too, because almost all members (except for sources) have a limited supply of smerit in their bank and they also have to generate smerit before they are going to be able to give any smerits out to anyone.

In other words, members are still learning about this whole process, and there are likely a lot of quasi-active members who still have not even figured out what merit versus smerits are, and might not even have logged into their account in the past several days.  So, doesn't it seem to be preposterous to be calling the end of the good aspects of the bitcoin talk world as we know it, merely based on a system's change that is still quite early in its implementation and playing out?

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
mikhailr
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January 29, 2018, 12:39:50 AM
 #1746

In general, the new system is not bad.
But you need to write clear rules (criteria) based on what I can give the user "sMerit" without fear of getting negative (red) trust.
And also I have a small suggestion for improvement. You can do this for forum users, possibly starting with the rank of "Member" and above, so that "sMerit" is updated after changing periods. Those. After 14 days, a small amount of sMerit is added (2-5 sMerit depending on the rank). This proposal arose because all can have different criteria for the usefulness of the message. And what is interesting for participants of a lower rank, may be uninteresting for the participants of the Legends.

suchmoon
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January 29, 2018, 01:10:11 AM
 #1747

In general, the new system is not bad.
But you need to write clear rules (criteria) based on what I can give the user "sMerit" without fear of getting negative (red) trust.
And also I have a small suggestion for improvement. You can do this for forum users, possibly starting with the rank of "Member" and above, so that "sMerit" is updated after changing periods. Those. After 14 days, a small amount of sMerit is added (2-5 sMerit depending on the rank). This proposal arose because all can have different criteria for the usefulness of the message. And what is interesting for participants of a lower rank, may be uninteresting for the participants of the Legends.

Granting sMerits based on rank would encourage account farming, so that's unlikely to be implemented.

There are ~50 merit sources, presumably with a wide range of criteria of what they consider "useful". Every month they will spread merits to at least 200 other users (likely many more).

JayJuanGee
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January 29, 2018, 01:29:46 AM
 #1748

In general, the new system is not bad.
But you need to write clear rules (criteria) based on what I can give the user "sMerit" without fear of getting negative (red) trust.
And also I have a small suggestion for improvement. You can do this for forum users, possibly starting with the rank of "Member" and above, so that "sMerit" is updated after changing periods. Those. After 14 days, a small amount of sMerit is added (2-5 sMerit depending on the rank). This proposal arose because all can have different criteria for the usefulness of the message. And what is interesting for participants of a lower rank, may be uninteresting for the participants of the Legends.

Granting sMerits based on rank would encourage account farming, so that's unlikely to be implemented.

There are ~50 merit sources, presumably with a wide range of criteria of what they consider "useful". Every month they will spread merits to at least 200 other users (likely many more).

 

I think that the calculation would be something like about 50 merit sources spreading about 185 merits (9,250 merits monthly), to perhaps 100 different users - so 50 x 100 = 5,000-ish different users would receive those 9,250 new merits, which would in turn allow the 5,000-ish users to distribute a portion of their 9,250/2 = 4,625 smerits to more members - a rippling effect, not counting the already existing smerits that will be floating around from the initial distribution and carry over smerits from previous months... not an exact science because of course there will be some hoarding, but I think that Theymos has already put some systems in place to verify how many smerits are being used on a regular basis.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
cmmhbct
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January 29, 2018, 02:01:34 AM
 #1749

I think that the calculation would be something like about 50 merit sources spreading about 185 merits (9,250 merits monthly), to perhaps 100 different users - so 50 x 100 = 5,000-ish different users would receive those 9,250 new merits, which would in turn allow the 5,000-ish users to distribute a portion of their 9,250/2 = 4,625 smerits to more members - a rippling effect, not counting the already existing smerits that will be floating around from the initial distribution and carry over smerits from previous months... not an exact science because of course there will be some hoarding, but I think that Theymos has already put some systems in place to verify how many smerits are being used on a regular basis.

sMerits produced as by-products of Merits from exchanging (I can called that) merits between users, senders and receivers. Personally, it's hard to calculate exact sMerits produced or used monthly, right?
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January 29, 2018, 02:18:34 AM
 #1750

sMerits produced as by-products of Merits from exchanging (I can called that) merits between users, senders and receivers. Personally, it's hard to calculate exact sMerits produced or used monthly, right?

It's going to be somewhere between 9925 and roughly double of that, but it all depends on how reliably users will spread them. I would imagine merit sources won't hoard, but from level 3-4 down there will be some who just won't care enough.

mikhailr
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January 29, 2018, 02:27:22 AM
 #1751

In general, the new system is not bad.
But you need to write clear rules (criteria) based on what I can give the user "sMerit" without fear of getting negative (red) trust.
And also I have a small suggestion for improvement. You can do this for forum users, possibly starting with the rank of "Member" and above, so that "sMerit" is updated after changing periods. Those. After 14 days, a small amount of sMerit is added (2-5 sMerit depending on the rank). This proposal arose because all can have different criteria for the usefulness of the message. And what is interesting for participants of a lower rank, may be uninteresting for the participants of the Legends.

Granting sMerits based on rank would encourage account farming, so that's unlikely to be implemented.

There are ~50 merit sources, presumably with a wide range of criteria of what they consider "useful". Every month they will spread merits to at least 200 other users (likely many more).


It seems to me that farm accounts are excluded. If within 14 days only 2 sMerit are provided. This will be 4 sMerit per month. Accordingly, the farmer's account will be at least "FullMember" 100/4 = 25 months.

suchmoon
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January 29, 2018, 02:51:02 AM
 #1752

It seems to me that farm accounts are excluded. If within 14 days only 2 sMerit are provided. This will be 4 sMerit per month. Accordingly, the farmer's account will be at least "FullMember" 100/4 = 25 months.

Farmers would create hundreds of accounts and would send merit between them.

JayJuanGee
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January 29, 2018, 02:58:48 AM
 #1753

sMerits produced as by-products of Merits from exchanging (I can called that) merits between users, senders and receivers. Personally, it's hard to calculate exact sMerits produced or used monthly, right?

It's going to be somewhere between 9925 and roughly double of that, but it all depends on how reliably users will spread them. I would imagine merit sources won't hoard, but from level 3-4 down there will be some who just won't care enough.


Personally, I speculate that a larger than 20k quantity of smerits are likely to circulate on a monthly basis with a combination of the source merits, the sendable merits that are generated from source merits, and the already existing sendable merits.  Either Theymos is going to be able to look up specifics, but it seems that theymos already provided enough tools that forum members are going to be able to look up those numbers to speculate a decent ballpark number (if not an actual number) regarding how many merits are being spent on a regular basis, whether monthly or otherwise.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
PoolMinor
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January 29, 2018, 03:22:53 AM
 #1754

Do the consumers here not find this new hurdle for advancement a little humorous? I mean if anything it just made my less than stellar account worth so much more than before. I can't wait for the offers for space in my signature line...If only I didn't post so few merit worthy posts, oh that's right it doesn't matter.

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suchmoon
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January 29, 2018, 03:29:48 AM
 #1755

sMerits produced as by-products of Merits from exchanging (I can called that) merits between users, senders and receivers. Personally, it's hard to calculate exact sMerits produced or used monthly, right?

It's going to be somewhere between 9925 and roughly double of that, but it all depends on how reliably users will spread them. I would imagine merit sources won't hoard, but from level 3-4 down there will be some who just won't care enough.


Personally, I speculate that a larger than 20k quantity of smerits are likely to circulate on a monthly basis with a combination of the source merits, the sendable merits that are generated from source merits, and the already existing sendable merits.  Either Theymos is going to be able to look up specifics, but it seems that theymos already provided enough tools that forum members are going to be able to look up those numbers to speculate a decent ballpark number (if not an actual number) regarding how many merits are being spent on a regular basis, whether monthly or otherwise.

I'm not really thinking about the initial allocation, I assume it will get depleted within a few months. It's been like 3 days and we already sent out nearly 30k out of ~1200k total possible. Plus theymos threatened to implement decay so it's gonna be gone one way or another.

athanz88
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January 29, 2018, 03:37:08 AM
 #1756

In general, the new system is not bad.
But you need to write clear rules (criteria) based on what I can give the user "sMerit" without fear of getting negative (red) trust.
And also I have a small suggestion for improvement. You can do this for forum users, possibly starting with the rank of "Member" and above, so that "sMerit" is updated after changing periods. Those. After 14 days, a small amount of sMerit is added (2-5 sMerit depending on the rank). This proposal arose because all can have different criteria for the usefulness of the message. And what is interesting for participants of a lower rank, may be uninteresting for the participants of the Legends.

Everyone would spam that merit to their other account, and it will make the purpose of merit points unsuccessful to achieve. And it would be no different than activity point if you propose merit can be gained based on time.

Change your point of view and learn this merit point. For me, I see this merit as a "level or yourself quality", it is earned trhough a hard work of yours, it is a thing to be proud of. If you re here for money from your work at campaign (I bet everyone can not deny they re here for some money, whetehr its campaign or knowledge of trading,mining,etc), then you may put yourself as a worker trying to get paid and promotion to next level, and to get that promotion you will need that merit points, if you work hard you will get that points. And promotion in the company from your upper/boss doesn't decided on how long you already work there, but it is decided from the quality if you re worthy of that promotion based, and there are some reason like quality of your relationship (friend, family, etc), as you may see there are lot of new workers get promotion rather than old workers in one company.
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January 29, 2018, 03:59:45 AM
 #1757

Is it possible that merits can work as "likes" or "thumbs up"?

I guess the main idea is to improve the community and I appreciate that.

I'm just thinking maybe we can promote an activity that ask everyone thumbs up those posts they like and you can only give out 5 likes each day or something like that.

Right now, I feel like merit is more like a coin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hope this community becomes better and better.
btcsmlcmnr
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January 29, 2018, 05:10:56 AM
 #1758

Is it possible that merits can work as "likes" or "thumbs up"?

I guess the main idea is to improve the community and I appreciate that.

I'm just thinking maybe we can promote an activity that ask everyone thumbs up those posts they like and you can only give out 5 likes each day or something like that.

Right now, I feel like merit is more like a coin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hope this community becomes better and better.
The need for limiting maximum merits which one user can send to others are real, neccessary. However, I would like to correct you a little bit, merits dont have any relationship to coins. Did you misunderstand the term?
tricker01
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January 29, 2018, 05:23:51 AM
 #1759

Is it possible that merits can work as "likes" or "thumbs up"?

I guess the main idea is to improve the community and I appreciate that.

I'm just thinking maybe we can promote an activity that ask everyone thumbs up those posts they like and you can only give out 5 likes each day or something like that.

Right now, I feel like merit is more like a coin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hope this community becomes better and better.
The need for limiting maximum merits which one user can send to others are real, neccessary. However, I would like to correct you a little bit, merits dont have any relationship to coins. Did you misunderstand the term?
Well as far as I know the number of merit that you can give to other are limited only for one month. But after that it will reset again. So means if you have 5 spendable merit in a month , then you will have it again next month. Even if you use it or not. And it only increase when you receive a merit from the others.
ruletheworld
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January 29, 2018, 05:46:49 AM
 #1760

Is it possible that merits can work as "likes" or "thumbs up"?

I guess the main idea is to improve the community and I appreciate that.

I'm just thinking maybe we can promote an activity that ask everyone thumbs up those posts they like and you can only give out 5 likes each day or something like that.

Right now, I feel like merit is more like a coin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hope this community becomes better and better.
The need for limiting maximum merits which one user can send to others are real, neccessary. However, I would like to correct you a little bit, merits dont have any relationship to coins. Did you misunderstand the term?
Well as far as I know the number of merit that you can give to other are limited only for one month. But after that it will reset again. So means if you have 5 spendable merit in a month , then you will have it again next month. Even if you use it or not. And it only increase when you receive a merit from the others.

That's not how it works. Read the OP again. If you're not a Merit Source, then you won't have your sMerit 'replenished' each month.
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