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Author Topic: Increasing Supply Limit.  (Read 445 times)
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January 22, 2018, 09:17:53 PM
Merited by figmentofmyass (1)
 #21

Just like any other network rules, the block reward could be modified through hard forks. If you convince everyone to run your client with the new block rewards, then you have effectively increased the supply limit. Anyone can do this, not limited to the creator. The whole point of Bitcoin is for anyone to be able to make changes and people can choose to or not to follow you.

Anyways, there is no economic incentives to do so. It would just devalue Bitcoin.

That's not entirely true. It really depends whether the original design's transition from subsidy to fees works as intended. The recent uptick in the fee portion of block reward is a good sign, but we still have very limited data. The premise that fees will replace subsidy without fundamentally threatening the network's security is still untested. It's theoretically possible that waning future block rewards could lead to hash rate drops that throw Bitcoin's byzantine fault tolerance in question. Severe enough drops in hash rate could allow older generations of hardware to come back online, opening up the possibility of massive block reorganizations -- and therefore utter unreliability as a value/monetary system.

If this were to happen, a perpetually low but predictable inflation rate -- which guarantees some mining security incentive (fees cannot do that unless they are mandatory and sufficiently high) -- would look very attractive in comparison. That's your economic incentive.

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January 23, 2018, 08:00:04 AM
 #22

So basically, the maximum 21M supply will never be changed when the first block was mined.
Correct.
You can. As long as you modify the code to increase the block reward and people run it, you would have effectively increased the total possible coin in circulation. The change can only be for those running your modified client.

It wouldn't be considered Bitcoin anymore though, since the coin cap violates one of the few goals that Bitcoin is trying to achieve.
You can but no one will take those modified and increased supply coin, just like those forked coins.


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January 23, 2018, 11:48:47 AM
 #23

That's not entirely true. It really depends whether the original design's transition from subsidy to fees works as intended. The recent uptick in the fee portion of block reward is a good sign, but we still have very limited data.
I would say that is mostly due to the limitations of Bitcoin as of now. This could be sustainable though, if the transaction volume continues to increase and miners are able to accomodate more transactions per block.
The premise that fees will replace subsidy without fundamentally threatening the network's security is still untested. It's theoretically possible that waning future block rewards could lead to hash rate drops that throw Bitcoin's byzantine fault tolerance in question. Severe enough drops in hash rate could allow older generations of hardware to come back online, opening up the possibility of massive block reorganizations -- and therefore utter unreliability as a value/monetary system.
Massive block reorgs would most likely happen if someone decides to execute an attack on Bitcoin. Old and obsolete ASICs are still able to come back as of now. There isn't any relation to older ASICs coming online, as far as the security of the network is concerned. If you're going to attack the network, might as well as use the most efficient ASICs out there, no need for old ASICs.

If this were to happen, a perpetually low but predictable inflation rate -- which guarantees some mining security incentive (fees cannot do that unless they are mandatory and sufficiently high) -- would look very attractive in comparison. That's your economic incentive.
I'm really bad at economics, so forgive me if I misunderstood anything. Isn't the additional coin going to affect the market? If its too small, it wouldn't make a difference to the miner.

The main thing that attract most of us is that Bitcoin has a fixed and transparent coin supply. I doubt most people would support breaking the basic feature that defines Bitcoin.


You can but no one will take those modified and increased supply coin, just like those forked coins.
So, let me ask you again. Can you technically increase the supply of coins? Even if its a hard fork? It seems like what you meant is that the rules of the network cannot be changed since the genesis block, while changes are still being made. It is possible with consensus.

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January 23, 2018, 12:30:21 PM
 #24

You can but no one will take those modified and increased supply coin, just like those forked coins.
So, let me ask you again. Can you technically increase the supply of coins? Even if its a hard fork? It seems like what you meant is that the rules of the network cannot be changed since the genesis block, while changes are still being made. It is possible with consensus.

Bitcoin diamond did it, they changed 21 million to 210 million coin. I think what he meant with "no one will take those modified coins" is that we only treat those forked coins as shitcoins.
Raising the supply is just a matter of changing the code, the hard part is to get everyone to accept that new coin.
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January 23, 2018, 09:53:49 PM
Merited by Mpamaegbu (3)
 #25

The premise that fees will replace subsidy without fundamentally threatening the network's security is still untested. It's theoretically possible that waning future block rewards could lead to hash rate drops that throw Bitcoin's byzantine fault tolerance in question. Severe enough drops in hash rate could allow older generations of hardware to come back online, opening up the possibility of massive block reorganizations -- and therefore utter unreliability as a value/monetary system.
Massive block reorgs would most likely happen if someone decides to execute an attack on Bitcoin. Old and obsolete ASICs are still able to come back as of now. There isn't any relation to older ASICs coming online, as far as the security of the network is concerned. If you're going to attack the network, might as well as use the most efficient ASICs out there, no need for old ASICs.

Maybe you missed the point about "hash rate drops that throw Bitcoin's byzantine fault tolerance in question." I wasn't making a statement about potential attacks on the system as is. The context is dwindling block reward (due to lack of fee income), which disincentivizes mining and sends hash rate into a downward spiral. Consider this IRC discussion from 2015:

Quote
gmaxwell: Lets imagine the most 'sacred' parameter, the supply of coins. Now imagine a future 25 years from now where subsidy is very low, and TX fees are not picking up the slack (e.g. fee market has failed or is insufficient) and the security of the system is failing, the network is being reorged by byzantine attackers with generation old hashpower. Security and usability are evaporating. Something must be done. With bitcoin's utility failing, saying you now need to pay fees when you haven't the last 10 years may not be a credible argument. So what do you do?

I'm really bad at economics, so forgive me if I misunderstood anything. Isn't the additional coin going to affect the market? If its too small, it wouldn't make a difference to the miner.

Of course it will affect the market. So does Bitcoin's current and historically high inflation rate. The point was that it might have made economic sense -- particularly from a long term perspective -- to pay (via inflation) for better security guarantees. Those security guarantees may in turn have made your investment more valuable in the long run. I assume this is why Peter Todd feels this way:

Quote
IMO Bitcoin should have had an explicit 1%/year or so security tax, implemented via inflation... [1/2]

The main thing that attract most of us is that Bitcoin has a fixed and transparent coin supply. I doubt most people would support breaking the basic feature that defines Bitcoin.

Yes. Unless the protocol became fundamentally broken, in which case, users might be incentivized to fix it. We'll see how Bitcoin fares when the subsidy begins to run dry:

Quote
It's theoretically possible that waning future block rewards could lead to hash rate drops that throw Bitcoin's byzantine fault tolerance in question. Severe enough drops in hash rate could allow older generations of hardware to come back online, opening up the possibility of massive block reorganizations -- and therefore utter unreliability as a value/monetary system.

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January 24, 2018, 07:10:52 AM
 #26

Good Day Everyone!
I think this is the most appropriate section where I can post my question regarding the development of Bitcoin.
I just read the Bitcoin whitepaper and most of it content are difficult for me to understand, lots of them are Mathematical Equation and programs. Upon reading  there is only one question. that pops in my mind.
What processes or steps in order for the creator to increase its Supply Limit? [I am also pertaining  to Alternative Coins not just Bitcoins]. Someone says that it is complicated.
Can you cite some relevant previous post or links?

To answer your exact question (bolded) I think if Satoshi Nakamoto suddenly showed up and asked everybody to increase the Supply Limit, it might happen.

Not that it's a good idea or a bad idea.

No Bitcoin holder would ever agree to this.

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January 24, 2018, 07:31:51 AM
 #27

I don't think that increasing supply limit is a good idea. If someone do this then people will not thrust to bitcoin anymore. If the supply limit increase its mean that there is inflation probability which is bad for bitcoin holder. I think lowering fee cost is more important than increasing supply limit.
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January 24, 2018, 02:48:10 PM
 #28

Sorry for a long discussion about the increasing supply of Bitcoin or any other currencies. I've read all of the replies and almost all of the terms used are beyond my knowledge about Cryptocurrencies, I am expecting replies that in order to create or increase the supply is all about reprogramming the cryptography used, but it turns out that there is something to do with genesis blockchain, the creator and the people using Bitcoins.

By the way, some said that an increase of supply will devalue Bitcoin, how?

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January 24, 2018, 05:25:46 PM
 #29

Good Day Everyone!
I think this is the most appropriate section where I can post my question regarding the development of Bitcoin.
I just read the Bitcoin whitepaper and most of it content are difficult for me to understand, lots of them are Mathematical Equation and programs. Upon reading  there is only one question. that pops in my mind.
What processes or steps in order for the creator to increase its Supply Limit? [I am also pertaining  to Alternative Coins not just Bitcoins]. Someone says that it is complicated.
Can you cite some relevant previous post or links?
Increasing the supply limit will devalue each bitcoin because more will be in circulation. It is like the American dollar. They just keep printing money and it keeps getting worth less and less in other countries.

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January 25, 2018, 08:40:03 AM
 #30


To answer your exact question (bolded) I think if Satoshi Nakamoto suddenly showed up and asked everybody to increase the Supply Limit, it might happen.

Not that it's a good idea or a bad idea.

Increasing the supply of bitcoin above the 21million maximum will no doubt destroy the credibility and value of Bitcoin. This has happened in the recent past with some altcoins and it didn't turn out well as many holders speedily dumped their units and left. It happened with Swisscoin on coinexchange. Price came crashing and the coins became as worthless as bitconnect coin now.

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