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Author Topic: The ultimate bitcoin taboo topic  (Read 9786 times)
gog1
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September 02, 2013, 05:20:51 PM
 #21

but can't the 51% decide to increase the max number of coins by 100x?
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Odalv
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September 02, 2013, 05:25:59 PM
 #22

but can't the 51% decide to increase the max number of coins by 100x?

This will disbalance original idea.  100x more coins => 100x more addresses (and required disk space) and 100x less security. But yes 51% can decide to create their alt-coins.

edit: Even 5% can decide to create their own alt-coins.
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September 02, 2013, 05:34:12 PM
 #23

As I wrote before. Only 0.007% uses Bitcoin 99.993% uses FIAT. Bitcoin still works. :-)
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September 02, 2013, 05:35:54 PM
 #24

but can't the 51% decide to increase the max number of coins by 100x?

This will disbalance original idea.  100x more coins => 100x more addresses (and required disk space) and 100x less security.

Please learn how Bitcoin actually works, thanks.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
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September 02, 2013, 05:37:43 PM
 #25

but can't the 51% decide to increase the max number of coins by 100x?

This will disbalance original idea.  100x more coins => 100x more addresses (and required disk space) and 100x less security.

Please learn how Bitcoin actually works, thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin
ElectricMucus
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September 02, 2013, 05:43:50 PM
 #26

Fine, now tell us how the number of coins relates to the number of addresses, or disk space for that matter.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
oda.krell
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September 02, 2013, 05:51:47 PM
 #27

I and many others will/would stick to the original because we believe it is not OK to use the money system to redistribute wealth.  That is what taxes are for
This is one thing I love about Bitcoin. It is totally democratic.

Some of the OP's suggestions are tantamount to taxation by the network. Your response demonstrates an opposition view and points out that many, by sticking to the original, would vote "nay".

Let the 51% decide.

Edit:

Oda.krell, sorry about the use of the word "suggestions". You posted while I was typing. I guess I should have said,  "points the OP raised".

51% can control future, not past.  Without private key you cannot redistribute old coins.

Actually, you're wrong.

A new blockchain could in theory simply dismiss all old addresses and the respective value they contain, but could transfer a part of the value contained in those old addresses over to the new chain in case you can prove ownership of the old addresses (with, obviously, the private key).

This could be the way to implement, for example, a "50% haircut on all wallets with more than 100k coins" scenario.

One more time, in case I didn't make it clear enough: I'm not saying that's what we should do, just that it would be possible to do that.

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I suggest to take a look at Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, fast, and one of the safest ways to store, send or receive bitcoins.
For executables (Windows, OSX, Linux, Android), source code and documentation, see the Electrum homepage.
odolvlobo
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September 02, 2013, 05:55:06 PM
 #28

Conclusion: If bitcoin would ever act as the world's primary monetary basis (and assuming of course the large bitcoin holdings mentioned above are not abandoned/sold in the meantime) we would have an unprecedented concentration of wealth.

You are confusing money and wealth. There is an incredibly huge difference between the global money supply and the global wealth. The person that owns 2.1% of all the bitcoins will never own a significant fraction of the global wealth regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

Also consider that 2.1% of all the bitcoins is currently a relatively tiny value compared to the wealth of the richest people on the planet. It is only 0.1% of Carlos Slim's wealth.


The real issue is this: can a person that owns 2.1% of all the bitcoins use those bitcoins to manipulate something, such as the value of a bitcoin.

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labestiol
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September 02, 2013, 06:01:51 PM
 #29

At the time of the first block, satoshi was holding 100% of the bitcoins. Things are getting better Wink

1BestioLC7YBVh8Q5LfH6RYURD6MrpP8y6
oda.krell
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September 02, 2013, 06:05:59 PM
 #30

Conclusion: If bitcoin would ever act as the world's primary monetary basis (and assuming of course the large bitcoin holdings mentioned above are not abandoned/sold in the meantime) we would have an unprecedented concentration of wealth.

You are confusing money and wealth. There is an incredibly huge difference between the global money supply and the global wealth. The person that owns 2.1% of all the bitcoins will never own a significant fraction of the global wealth regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

Also consider that 2.1% of all the bitcoins is currently a relatively tiny value compared to the wealth of the richest people on the planet. It is only 0.1% of Carlos Slim's wealth.


The real issue is this: can a person that owns 2.1% of all the bitcoins use those bitcoins to manipulate something, such as the value of a bitcoin.

Why is nobody actually reading my original post? (EDIT: because it's too long-winded and not to the point enough. that's why.)

I addressed this point in my note below "fact 2". I said the richest person now probably holds less than 0.1% of the actual global wealth. The richest bitcoin holder holds 2.1% (under the assumptions about wallets being shared, etc.) I then assumed that bitcoin will not only take over the money supply in the narrow sense, but also acts as a commodity/store of value, like gold.

I am working from exactly the scenario that many in here on some level seem to believe, if allowed to dream: that bitcoin could one day replace both fiat currencies *and* the current illiqid assets that act as store of value, like gold.

And in that case, "2.1% of bitcoin" does in fact come close to "2.1% of overall wealth"

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I suggest to take a look at Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, fast, and one of the safest ways to store, send or receive bitcoins.
For executables (Windows, OSX, Linux, Android), source code and documentation, see the Electrum homepage.
Odalv
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September 02, 2013, 06:14:18 PM
 #31

Fine, now tell us how the number of coins relates to the number of addresses, or disk space for that matter.

LOL :-), Use your brain. It is obviously, more coins => more acounts more transaction's history.
oda.krell
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September 02, 2013, 06:35:36 PM
 #32

Fine, now tell us how the number of coins relates to the number of addresses, or disk space for that matter.

it's because

$address = abc123
$value = 200

takes up twice as much space as

$name = abc123
$value = 100

That's right, kids: Each of those pesky little integers (or floats, or whatever) is stored by making a tiny little notch in the surface of your harddrive. And that takes a lot of time and work! So don't go throwing around big numbers thoughtlessly, okay?

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I suggest to take a look at Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, fast, and one of the safest ways to store, send or receive bitcoins.
For executables (Windows, OSX, Linux, Android), source code and documentation, see the Electrum homepage.
ElectricMucus
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September 02, 2013, 06:37:49 PM
 #33

Please stop.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
oda.krell
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September 02, 2013, 06:43:31 PM
 #34

Hey! I haven't told you yet how difficult it is to make enough notches to store a real number.

(hint: you need a veeerry, very dense knife)

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I suggest to take a look at Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, fast, and one of the safest ways to store, send or receive bitcoins.
For executables (Windows, OSX, Linux, Android), source code and documentation, see the Electrum homepage.
xxjs
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September 02, 2013, 06:46:01 PM
 #35

How would you design a cryptocurrency to solve the initial distribution problem? Imagine you are in 2009, when nobody knew that it could succeed as money at all.
oda.krell
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September 02, 2013, 06:53:37 PM
 #36

How would you design a cryptocurrency to solve the initial distribution problem? Imagine you are in 2009, when nobody knew that it could succeed as money at all.

Like I wrote in a comment before, I don't know of the solution. I'm just pointing out that bitcoin, by virtue of being attrative for early adopters (deflationary, big rewards for early miners), will also suffer from extreme concentration of wealth. Which ultimately might cause its downfall.

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I suggest to take a look at Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, fast, and one of the safest ways to store, send or receive bitcoins.
For executables (Windows, OSX, Linux, Android), source code and documentation, see the Electrum homepage.
xxjs
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September 02, 2013, 07:01:19 PM
 #37

How would you design a cryptocurrency to solve the initial distribution problem? Imagine you are in 2009, when nobody knew that it could succeed as money at all.

Like I wrote in a comment before, I don't know of the solution. I'm just pointing out that bitcoin, by virtue of being attrative for early adopters (deflationary, big rewards for early miners), will also suffer from extreme concentration of wealth. Which ultimately might cause its downfall.

In that case, all is good. But here is a suggestion: make the block reward more in line with the adoption, for instance 1 BTC per block in the beginning, increasing to 50 after 10 years, then down again. But - nobody would know the adoption rate in advance, and speculators would still try to anticipate the value in the future. And there might be a shock when the block reward started down. In short, it would not make much difference. I am personally impressed with the foresight of Satoshi in the white paper.
oda.krell
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September 02, 2013, 07:09:25 PM
 #38

I think the real solution might be something much more uncomfortable to us early and relatively early adopters and investors:

At some point in the future we might see that bitcoin's growth (price, adoption, whatever) will slow down, possibly because too many coins are in the hands of too little people. Another cryptocurrency (sure, call them "altcoins" if you wish) might start to rise, with less resistance than the original.

At this point, it is at least conceivable that redistribution of old coins will be discussed among us. Not a second earlier (after all, what do I care about the social aspects of distribution of wealth, as long as I'm at the upper end of the distribution). And it would be considered not for moral reasons, but because not redistributing might negatively affect the wealth of the old holders. But by that time, it might also be too late already.

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I suggest to take a look at Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, fast, and one of the safest ways to store, send or receive bitcoins.
For executables (Windows, OSX, Linux, Android), source code and documentation, see the Electrum homepage.
Xiaoma
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September 02, 2013, 07:10:04 PM
 #39

It is an amusing aspect of the human psyche, when confronted with equally probable alternatives, to dismiss the unliked option as unlikely. All the people saying something like: "what damage can possibly a socially inept geek with billions dollars do?". He would not have connection or influence.

Problem is, it is equally possible that our next plutocrat is a smart business mind, with government or other connections. And most people seem to forget one simple fact. Money can buy political support, media support, business support... this is exactly why wealth IS power.

Also, why assume that the entity behind Satoshi name is a selfless charity, and doesn't have any power agenda? It is equally probable.
bobdude17
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September 02, 2013, 07:18:41 PM
 #40

         
....

     
Now once Bitcoin does get there(or perhaps just before) we will run into a problem that many people have pointed out. Market instability. Hoarding by the rich investors, the people who have 10's of thousands of Bitcoins. Detractors rightly say that these overly rich early speculators will simply have too much damn money for there to be room for a stable economy. The graphs bounce with every move they make. However, you are still thinking in terms of the archaic currencies we use today. New systems require new ways of thinking. If this problem is obvious to you, do you not think it is obvious to them and their financial advisers as well?

In the present archaic system these activities continue because the government can just print more currency in order to balance or stimulate the economy, and keep these barons in power. Since this is not possible with Bitcoin, the ultra rich will be forced to do it out of their own pocket. No choice. It is now in their best interest - if they want to have a market to spend those billions in. They will have to spend of some of their money to stimulate the economy in order make their wealth usable, and the distribution of wealth will equal out slightly. The market will stabilize. And because there will be no bureaucracy to support these billionaires' financial staying power, finally the little people will have a chance to make their own fortunes out of hard work and ingenuity in a truly free market. The rich will have to maintain their wealth in the same way.
This is an unprecedented turn of history. It is an evolutionary stage of society that cannot be stopped. To you soon-to-be-rich: remember your responsibilities.
We are finally all in this together.


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