MasterCoin Buyer/Seller Thread

[SyRenity]

so when is this downtrend turning around?

Seems it has stopped on 0.1 bottom.

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[DarkEmi]

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

I agree with you. Thats commendable

[nanobit]

Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

JR, I'm sorry to point this out, but when you made the announcement 5 days ago, you wrote:
"I hope to sell 3-6% of my total MSC holdings (5000-10000 MSC). If I haven't sold them by August 1st 2014, I'll sell more aggressively.".
First, it would appear you didn't run the announcement by the Board. Ripper had to immediately start speaking on your behalf to clarify the message. It appears you ran solo, without analyzing what kind of message your announcement sends. This shows questionable judgement on your part.

Second, could you please explain why, when you just caused a panic sell 5 days ago, you cause another drop by forgetting your promise of keeping the prices you announced until August? Kindly explain your thought process, because I'm really at a loss. The founder should act in a predictable, altruistic way.

I would also suggest you do a session similar to Reddit's AMA, where the community can send you questions, and you actually answer them. This is the only ICT project I've ever been involved in where the leader is the least visible and most unavailable person in the project. It should be the other way around.

My apologies for the harsh words, J.R., but I think we deserve answers.

[dacoinminster]

Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

JR, I'm sorry to point this out, but when you made the announcement 5 days ago, you wrote:
"I hope to sell 3-6% of my total MSC holdings (5000-10000 MSC). If I haven't sold them by August 1st 2014, I'll sell more aggressively.".
First, it would appear you didn't run the announcement by the Board. Ripper had to immediately start speaking on your behalf to clarify the message. It appears you ran solo, without analyzing what kind of message your announcement sends. This shows questionable judgement on your part.

Second, could you please explain why, when you just caused a panic sell 5 days ago, you cause another drop by forgetting your promise of keeping the prices you announced until August? Kindly explain your thought process, because I'm really at a loss. The founder should act in a predictable, altruistic way.

I would also suggest you do a session similar to Reddit's AMA, where the community can send you questions, and you actually answer them. This is the only ICT project I've ever been involved in where the leader is the least visible and most unavailable person in the project. It should be the other way around.

My apologies for the harsh words, J.R., but I think we deserve answers.

Sure no problem.

Yes, the board was aware I would be selling (and in fact had been urging me to do so for some time). I don't think anybody was prepared for the way people panicked though. Ron (Ripper) had to jump on reddit and calm people's fears because I was offline at that time. He and I had been discussing my planned sale just a few hours before I announced it.

August 1st is when I qualify for long-term capital gains on my Mastercoins, and therefore I'm more willing to sell when we get there. I did not mean to imply that I would never change my price between now and then.

I REALLY want to work full-time on Mastercoin, and that is what is driving me to do this, painful though it is to see how the price has fallen. The price movement is simply what happens when somebody sells into very thin volume. Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution.

[tantanbit]

Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

JR, I'm sorry to point this out, but when you made the announcement 5 days ago, you wrote:
"I hope to sell 3-6% of my total MSC holdings (5000-10000 MSC). If I haven't sold them by August 1st 2014, I'll sell more aggressively.".
First, it would appear you didn't run the announcement by the Board. Ripper had to immediately start speaking on your behalf to clarify the message. It appears you ran solo, without analyzing what kind of message your announcement sends. This shows questionable judgement on your part.

Second, could you please explain why, when you just caused a panic sell 5 days ago, you cause another drop by forgetting your promise of keeping the prices you announced until August? Kindly explain your thought process, because I'm really at a loss. The founder should act in a predictable, altruistic way.

I would also suggest you do a session similar to Reddit's AMA, where the community can send you questions, and you actually answer them. This is the only ICT project I've ever been involved in where the leader is the least visible and most unavailable person in the project. It should be the other way around.

My apologies for the harsh words, J.R., but I think we deserve answers.

Sure no problem.

Yes, the board was aware I would be selling (and in fact had been urging me to do so for some time). I don't think anybody was prepared for the way people panicked though. Ron (Ripper) had to jump on reddit and calm people's fears because I was offline at that time. He and I had been discussing my planned sale just a few hours before I announced it.

August 1st is when I qualify for long-term capital gains on my Mastercoins, and therefore I'm more willing to sell when we get there. I did not mean to imply that I would never change my price between now and then.

I REALLY want to work full-time on Mastercoin, and that is what is driving me to do this, painful though it is to see how the price has fallen. The price movement is simply what happens when somebody sells into very thin volume. Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution.

you won't stop until you destroy the market? you really don't  known what  you are doing means ?  if  you relly want to sell, release a client ,give a big news ,people won't buy things that is droping price. you can check the volume of the market ,it's dying. no one dare  to buy before you finish .
bad english ,wish you can understand.
if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

very right!!!!

[FrictionlessCoin]

Clearly, there isn't enough MSC liquidity to support the price.

Compare these two coins:

5    Namecoin       $ 49,150,912   $ 6.34   7,758,492 NMC   $ 1,921,747   -2.20 %   
6    MasterCoin   $ 45,917,394   $ 81.53   563,162 MSC*   $ 66,636   -30.26 %   

Namecoin has traded over 2 million USD in one day.   Mastercoin can barely handle 66K USD in one day.

The difference between a 100% pre-mined coin and a conventional alt-coin is that the former isn't used to constant selling.

Conventional alt-coins always have sellers in the form of miners,  so the price is usually very close to equilibrium as compared to a coin like MSC.

[BitThink]

If at last JR sold out his coins at exodus price, is it a good thing or bad thing for better distribution? Why people care the current price (when there's nothing even released) so much? I suppose Mastercoin is not developed for people to speculate in the short term. It's really ironic that people complain for high price (unfair, we need better distribution. Initial investor should not hoard and sell more in low price) and then complain again for low price (unfair, we need higher price. Initial investor should hold forever).

No matter what's the current price, in the long term the price of Mastercoin only depends on how many users are using its deprived products. How about forget about the current price and concentrate more on the progress of the project (the DEX, the wallet, ...). If there's nothing out in time, then no matter how high the current price it is, the Mastercoin will become worthless anyway.

[Buratino]

OK, it was happened, when will the MSC rate reach previous value (0.02 BTC)?

[tantanbit]

so when is this downtrend turning around?

when the man finish his show

[romerun]

it's just msc not listed in BTC-e

Clearly, there isn't enough MSC liquidity to support the price.

Compare these two coins:

5    Namecoin       $ 49,150,912   $ 6.34   7,758,492 NMC   $ 1,921,747   -2.20 %   
6    MasterCoin   $ 45,917,394   $ 81.53   563,162 MSC*   $ 66,636   -30.26 %   

Namecoin has traded over 2 million USD in one day.   Mastercoin can barely handle 66K USD in one day.

The difference between a 100% pre-mined coin and a conventional alt-coin is that the former isn't used to constant selling.

Conventional alt-coins always have sellers in the form of miners,  so the price is usually very close to equilibrium as compared to a coin like MSC.

[marcelus]

If at last JR sold out his coins at exodus price, is it a good thing or bad thing for better distribution? Why people care the current price (when there's nothing even released) so much? I suppose Mastercoin is not developed for people to speculate in the short term. It's really ironic that people complain for high price (unfair, we need better distribution. Initial investor should not hoard and sell more in low price) and then complain again for low price (unfair, we need higher price. Initial investor should hold forever).

No matter what's the current price, in the long term the price of Mastercoin only depends on how many users are using its deprived products. How about forget about the current price and concentrate more on the progress of the project (the DEX, the wallet, ...). If there's nothing out in time, then no matter how high the current price it is, the Mastercoin will become worthless anyway.

+1

The master protocol's success has nothing to do with who owns its tokens as long as its tokens are distributed. JR selling his coins is actually good for the project as he holds an unhealthy amount as it stands. 

[td services]

Sure no problem.

Yes, the board was aware I would be selling (and in fact had been urging me to do so for some time). I don't think anybody was prepared for the way people panicked though. Ron (Ripper) had to jump on reddit and calm people's fears because I was offline at that time. He and I had been discussing my planned sale just a few hours before I announced it.

August 1st is when I qualify for long-term capital gains on my Mastercoins, and therefore I'm more willing to sell when we get there. I did not mean to imply that I would never change my price between now and then.

I REALLY want to work full-time on Mastercoin, and that is what is driving me to do this, painful though it is to see how the price has fallen. The price movement is simply what happens when somebody sells into very thin volume. Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution.

Maybe it would be best to hold a public Dutch Auction to sell off the large block of MSC. An example of a Dutch Auction was the Google IPO.

[crazy_rabbit]

Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution.

Maybe it would be best to hold a public Dutch Auction to sell off the large block of MSC. An example of a Dutch Auction was the Google IPO.

A Dutch Auction is a good idea. Why not? Or sell them for like 2x or 4x the exodus price. You still make money, people feel like it's a great bargin, and mastercoin gets an even larger community.

[peled1986]

I agree that a Dutch Auction is a good idea:
(1) Buyers will start fighting against each other to buy J.R MSC instead of J.R "chasing" them.
(2) It will be over much quicker letting J.R to start working full time and stabilizing the market.
(3) I think it's worth thinking about trying to do it in a way that is decentralized so 1 strong buyer won't be able to buy all. A rich buyer that is looking for a short term profit can do more "damage" to the market than J.R is currently doing.

[crazy_rabbit]

I agree that a Dutch Auction is a good idea:
(1) Buyers will start fighting against each other to buy J.R MSC instead of J.R "chasing" them.

Exactly. It's the chasing the market down that causes so much panic.

(2) It will be over much quicker letting J.R to start working full time and stabilizing the market.

It will also feel more fair to people. Even I would be willing to buy more MSC at a certain price.

(3) I think it's worth thinking about trying to do it in a way that is decentralized so 1 strong buyer won't be able to buy all. A rich buyer that is looking for a short term profit can do more "damage" to the market than J.R is currently doing.

Good point, although I'm not sure how that would be done. It's hard to prove one buy is different from another. Maybe we could identify ourselves with our exodus addresses? Have all initial buyers have a chance to buy more? At least that would be one way of verifying we are most likely separate buyers.

[peled1986]

(3) I think it's worth thinking about trying to do it in a way that is decentralized so 1 strong buyer won't be able to buy all. A rich buyer that is looking for a short term profit can do more "damage" to the market than J.R is currently doing.

Good point, although I'm not sure how that would be done. It's hard to prove one buy is different from another. Maybe we could identify ourselves with our exodus addresses? Have all initial buyers have a chance to buy more? At least that would be one way of verifying we are most likely separate buyers.

I don't think this is a good idea:
(1) Attracting new buyers is important
(2) It will feel less fair the majority of the MSC community (they are the ones mostly effected by the price drop - Exodus buyers are still making X10 their investment at the current market price)
(3) Exodus buyers themself (about 50 people) are holding roughly 45% of the total MSC.

Maybe a good idea is: only members registered prior 2014 will be able to take part. Rich people can try to buy older accounts but it takes effort and time thus making buying large sums harder.

[wizzardTim]

Certain things must be done in a hurry, if we're gonna see 1btc=1msc. eg easy to use wallet, exchange market etc.

And many of these should be done before XCP/Etherium/eMunie/Skycoin/MC2.

what do you think?

[peled1986]

what do you think?

i think everyone agrees with you.
The sooner the better.
But it doesn't help agreeing.
Developers need to work hard to make it happen.

[crazy_rabbit]

(3) I think it's worth thinking about trying to do it in a way that is decentralized so 1 strong buyer won't be able to buy all. A rich buyer that is looking for a short term profit can do more "damage" to the market than J.R is currently doing.

Good point, although I'm not sure how that would be done. It's hard to prove one buy is different from another. Maybe we could identify ourselves with our exodus addresses? Have all initial buyers have a chance to buy more? At least that would be one way of verifying we are most likely separate buyers.

I don't think this is a good idea:
(1) Attracting new buyers is important
(2) It will feel less fair to people
(3) Exodus buyers themself (about 50 people) are holding 45% of the total MSC.

Maybe a good idea is: only members registered prior 2014 will be able to take part. Rich people can try to buy older accounts but it takes effort and time thus making buying large sums harder.

I didn't mean to imply ONLY exodus people should be allowed to buy, but maybe reserve some for exodus addresses so we can potentially buy more, and if we do, they you can be fairly sure the coins are going to more then one person. IT's not the best system, but just an idea.

[peled1986]

but maybe reserve some for exodus addresses so we can potentially buy more, and if we do, they you can be fairly sure the coins are going to more then one person

I think the idea of reserving MSC for exodus addresses has more bad implications than good.