Peacefully understanding the double standards re: selling accounts?

[ProfWigSlipper]

FYI: Hi, I am not currently looking to sell BCT accounts, but am really interested in understanding your system, so I can properly advise my students, thank you.

As far as I know:
Selling accounts is allowed.
Selling accounts is "discouraged" so much that you will probably get red rep, and almost everyone creates a new account to attempt to sell, plus the "newbie" with no trust, 100% requires escrow to sell the account.

Escrow:
The escrow side is not actively discouraged and even "elite staff members" are allowed to profit off the transactions.

Does anyone detect a possible, unfair double standard?
If simply selling an account is bad enough to be eternally scarred of incoming red rep, then why do the escrow providers get a free pass?

This topic is not picking a side:
Can we either be less harsh on people selling accounts, or start to bring fair justice to the escrow providers?

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[The Sceptical Chymist]

I don't know exactly what you're blabbering about, but I'd be really interested to know who your "students" are.

I routinely give red trust to account buyers and sellers.  The reason I do this is because I strongly believe that account sales
1) Allow people to buy reputation that they did not earn themselves, and they leverage this (green trust) in order to pull off scams.  That could be loans, sales, whatever.  I've seen it done, and I'm pretty sure when I got scammed out of 0.3BTC by TimSweat, it was because he had sold his account.  People put way too much faith in the trust system here.  And
2) People buy accounts in order to spam in signature campaigns. 
And
3) Account sales encourage people to farm accounts, and this is most commonly done not with high-quality posts but with pajeet-style shitposts.

So there's no good that comes from account sales, and I would advise you not to engage in that sort of activity.

[Lauda]

This topic is not picking a side:
Can we either be less harsh on people selling accounts, or start to bring fair justice to the escrow providers?

How about you start by giving the names of a few escrow providers that do this? That would help with creating a case here.

[Vannie12]

Yeah. Agree a lot to OPs above. Selling or buying accounts will not do anything good especially here in the forum.

If it's true that your STUDENTS are your buyers:
If you are making newbie accounts, why don't they make it themselves?
If a Jr. or higher accounts, wouldn't you be a bit regretful making those accounts with your efforts and wasting them for unknowlegeable students ? It's harder to rank up these days and maybe your accounts being sold might just end up having banned or neg rep.


Also, selling will only lead to more of spamming and shit posting.


In General, that is why it is being discouraged. It can lead to more trashes.

[EcuaMobi]

Selling and buying is wrong, I agree. However not everything related to this is equally wrong. We must consider the problem as a whole.

Trusted vs. non-trusted
If a trusted account is sold then a scammer can use it to ask others to send first and scam. It deserves negative trust without any doubt!

If a neutral Member account is sold, it's very difficult it can be used for scamming. It could be considered as paying a fee to be allowed to join a better signature campaign sooner. This is very arguable of course but it's clear at least it's much less bad that selling trusted accounts.

Cause-effect
If selling is forbidden then it will move off site. That's why it's not forbidden. Besides it's very difficult to enforce.
For similar reasons, leaving negative trust for every user who sells or buys accounts, or even asks questions about it, will cause users to use disposable accounts to buy and sell. Will that help?
One thing is finding and tagging the accounts being sold (especially high-ranked and trusted accounts), other very different thing is tagging everyone involved. Again, it's arguable, but it's worth considering.

Selling vs escrow
And finally, to handle OP's point:
If every trusted user avoids being escrow on account sales, do you think sales will just stop? Or will users just get scammed more often because of trading them between 2 newbie accounts without escrow?
Besides, if the escrow notices a trusted account being sold, he could tag it (although that could stop users from using escrow with those accounts), ask users who left positive trust to that account to remove it, or at least monitor it for suspicious activity (demanding others to send first, refusing escrow, explicitly claiming to be the same original owner of the account).

I think we agree selling a trusted, high-rank account deserves negative trust, and the account must be tagged whenever possible. But I think the other points (trading non-trusted accounts, acting as escrow) are arguable and everyone can have a different point of view about this.

Personally, I prefer not to escrow accounts (if I ever escrow), but I definitely wouldn't add negative trust to someone who does.

[ProfWigSlipper]

...
I routinely give red trust to account buyers and sellers.
...

Thanks for the really clear answer:
Now how often, and why not, do you give red rep to the elite escrow agents?

[ProfWigSlipper]

I don't know exactly what you're blabbering about,....

Why Not, I was very clear, what is wrong on your side?

....
This topic is not picking a side:
Can we either be less harsh on people selling accounts, or start to bring fair justice to the escrow providers?

[ProfWigSlipper]

This topic is not picking a side:
Can we either be less harsh on people selling accounts, or start to bring fair justice to the escrow providers?

How about you start by giving the names of a few escrow providers that do this? That would help with creating a case here.

Hello, Are you actually suggesting no well-established escrow providers help sell accounts?

[Roboabhishek]

Before saying anything I truly agree with what The Pharmacist said.

Account sales encourage Scam, Spam & Shitposting.
Scam: People who buy accounts to scam that has +ve trust score (Obviously), Take an example of MasterP least but not last.

Spam & Shitposting: Buying accounts to spam participating in signature campaigns which do lose the opportunity to a good contributor to the forum & Leads to spam posts as you see in Games & Rounds and also in Bitcoin Discussion area.

In short, allowing Account Sales in Public without giving sellers and Buyer -ve rating would be even worse.

Yeah. Agree a lot to OPs above. Selling or buying accounts will not do anything good especially here in the forum.

If it's true that your STUDENTS are your buyers:
If you are making newbie accounts, why don't they make it themselves?
If a Jr. or higher accounts, wouldn't you be a bit regretful making those accounts with your efforts and wasting them for unknowlegeable students ? It's harder to rank up these days and maybe your accounts being sold might just end up having banned or neg rep.


Also, selling will only lead to more of spamming and shit posting.


In General, that is why it is being discouraged. It can lead to more trashes.

haha 

[teddy5145]

Hello, Are you actually suggesting no well-established escrow providers help sell accounts?

Lauda says give him the name of escrows that provides their services for account selling, if there are enough evidence that escrow will be given -neg as how it was supposed to be.
Everyone who got their hands on account sales should be given -neg, whether it's the buyer, seller, or the escrow.

To add to Roboabhishek's opinion:
Buying account are also not fair to those who build their account reputation and rank from ground up, compared to those who bought the account in hoping for a big money from signature campaign
In which, most doesn't get accepted anyway since their quality suddenly degraded

[HabBear]

This topic is not picking a side:
Can we either be less harsh on people selling accounts, or start to bring fair justice to the escrow providers?

This is the same as saying, terrorists use cars to facilitate their terrorism, and if terrorism is illegal than we must also make using cars illegal.

Where do you draw the line?

When is someone not responsible for another person's actions?

The only crime that I believe exists in the escrow world on this forum is that anyone that tries to enter the market as a new provider of escrow services will end up being forced out (not peacefully, not by market competition) by the very few escrow providers that exist already.

[Lauda]

When is someone not responsible for another person's actions?

People who knowingly participate in trading bitcointalk accounts are responsible for their actions, regardless if you are the buyer/seller/escrow. If we are going to turn a blind eye for a few pennies, then we are not better than Quickseller.

[alexrossi]

Every escrow is free to decide if he wants or not to manage an account trade. Many escrows (including myself) are denying these particular requests, in my case also because of the kind of collateral (bound to a specific site that can be down, etc..., unlike for ex. a cryptocurrency as a collateral).

[hilariousetc]

Who are these "elite staff members" escrow providers you speak of? The only people who are probably escrowing account sales are the shitty desperate escrows who will do anything for their small cut of money in fees, but I haven't really seen anyone openly offering such services (though I don't doubt there are people that do), but if you're to make a case here you need to provide some evidence.

[alexrossi]

Who are these "elite staff members" escrow providers you speak of? The only people who are probably escrowing account sales are the shitty desperate escrows who will do anything for their small cut of money in fees, but I haven't really seen anyone openly offering such services (though I don't doubt there are people that do), but if you're to make a case here you need to provide some evidence.

AFAIK there are trusted escrows that accept account trades or as a collateral in a loan, but they generally ask a minimum fee for this kind of deals (if i'm not wrong sebastianju)