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Author Topic: Unfortunately people will learn the hard way that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme  (Read 474 times)
fxsurfer
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February 06, 2018, 09:29:18 AM
 #21

Bitcoin is NOT a Ponzi scheme!

It is a currency competing for dominance! It will REPLACE the dollar! Thus, all dollars are converted into bitcoin. The more dollars converted to bitcoin the value of bitcoin goes up, because bitcoin is NON INFLATIONARY!!
You are wrong. Bitcoin is a number. Number is not a currency but mathematical object. A currency is legally enforceable instrument which originated from loan contracts in a specific country.

Bitcoin's inherent value comes from the technology. The internet was about as useful as bitcoin is now before people realized the potential and it was widely adopted. Ideologues will never care about the current fiat value of Bitcoin. It's the potential to bring economic slavery to its knees.  
You don't own technology by having numbers in your bitcoin wallet, which is why bitcoin's value cannot arise from the technology. It's a pretty simple syllogism.
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February 06, 2018, 09:30:40 AM
 #22

All one needs to do is look at one simple concept – numbers – empty mathematical numbers because it must point to something outside the place where it exists.

Analogy: $85 on a telephone bill measures the size of a claim that the telephone operator has on its consumer. This claim is legally enforceable right that exists independently of a number on a phone bill.

The video is more about how banking system works through debt. It's not number on its own, its numbers on a proof-of-work distributed trustless system (Blockchain) where rules are enforced through consensus.

What intrinsic value does dollar have?

What is fiat backed by? Debt.

Decentralized - consensus - rules - enforecable.

You Don’t Understand Bitcoin Because You Think Money Is Real

https://medium.com/@mariabustillos/you-dont-understand-bitcoin-because-you-think-money-is-real-5aef45b8e952
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February 06, 2018, 09:33:17 AM
 #23

When I presented arguments like the one in the the video below, people just ignored them. Now, they will learn the hard way what it means to be a part of a Ponzi scheme.

Bitcoin And Cryptocurrencies - Ponzi Schemes Dressed Up And Sold As Money
https://youtu.be/gcNngl8fCUY

Bitcoin is a legit investment and not a scam or a Ponzi scheme in which you believed. The ones who make Bitcoin become a scam is the fraud people who used it to scam people. If fiat currency or the paper money can be used to scam and cheat people, it will be the same with Bitcoin too in which it can be used the platform to scam investments. Same to be called as currencies but different forms.

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February 06, 2018, 09:34:59 AM
 #24

...nothing but empty numbers...

That's exactly what you have in your bank account, nothing but empty numbers, forget all those stories that you think you know about how things work because they are not true, if you still think that money is being created from people debt, you are completely lost, that's only a veil in front of your face

Be 100% sure my friend, there is bigger whales in the world than banks or even countries ...

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist
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February 06, 2018, 09:43:28 AM
 #25

...nothing but empty numbers...

That's exactly what you have in your bank account, nothing but empty numbers, forget all those stories that you think you know about how things work because they are not true, if you still think that money is being created from people debt, you are completely lost, that's only a veil in front of your face

Be 100% sure my friend, there is bigger whales in the world than banks or even countries ...
What I have in my bank account is not a number but a legally enforceable instrument backed by enforceable loan contracts. Number only measures the size of this instrument.  But, like I said... you wil learn the hard way what bitcoin really is.
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February 06, 2018, 09:47:17 AM
 #26

...nothing but empty numbers...

That's exactly what you have in your bank account, nothing but empty numbers, forget all those stories that you think you know about how things work because they are not true, if you still think that money is being created from people debt, you are completely lost, that's only a veil in front of your face

Be 100% sure my friend, there is bigger whales in the world than banks or even countries ...
What I have in my bank account is not a number but a legally enforceable instrument backed by enforceable loan contracts, which is just measured with a number. But, like I said... you wil learn the hard way what bitcoin really is.

Yes, we have learned the hard way. What are you even doing on this forum?

Reminds me of the flat earth dude.
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February 06, 2018, 09:50:48 AM
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 #27

Bitcoin is NOT a Ponzi scheme!

It is a currency competing for dominance! It will REPLACE the dollar! Thus, all dollars are converted into bitcoin. The more dollars converted to bitcoin the value of bitcoin goes up, because bitcoin is NON INFLATIONARY!!
You are wrong. Bitcoin is a number. Number is not a currency but mathematical object. A currency is legally enforceable instrument which originated from loan contracts in a specific country.

Bitcoin's inherent value comes from the technology. The internet was about as useful as bitcoin is now before people realized the potential and it was widely adopted. Ideologues will never care about the current fiat value of Bitcoin. It's the potential to bring economic slavery to its knees.  
You don't own technology by having numbers in your bitcoin wallet, which is why bitcoin's value cannot arise from the technology. It's a pretty simple syllogism.

What you do not seem to understand is that bitcoin is being given fiat value by speculators. That might be construed as being a ponzi. But the decentralized nature of the system allows anyone to use bitcoin as they please. Do you understand the technology behind bitcoin? Are you so closed-minded that you cannot see the massive wave of decentralization in technology all over the world? It comes in various degrees, but things from torrents, netflix and video streaming platforms like youtube all have a certain decentralizing nature (not completely, obviously) in common. People are allowed more freedom of choice, as funny as that may sound when referring to netflix or whatever (compared for example to classic TV), but it's the underlying reasoning for the advancement of this pattern.

If you cannot see this pattern, as early as it may be at this stage, I have wasted my time. Bitcoin, as a vehicle for speculation, is not something I'm particularly fond of. Sure, I'm making money off it here and there, won't complain. But it's not the reason I'm here. Decentralization is the future and bitcoin is one of its prophets. And I'll tell you why decentralization is the future. It's because it's efficient. Pragmatic. Imagine entire cities having no need for central government. Cities that run on their own. And so...so much more. That is the future my friend, and I laugh at those that cannot see it.

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February 06, 2018, 09:54:13 AM
 #28

When the price of bitcoin fell sharply, there were always some people who came out and pointed out that bitcoin was a huge ponzi scheme.
I've not want to listen of there FUD, you don't know the mechanics of bitcoin, so why you say bitcoin is a ponzi scheme? Huh

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February 06, 2018, 09:58:51 AM
 #29

so why you say bitcoin is a ponzi scheme? Huh
It's not, he's just trolling.

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February 06, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
 #30

What I have in my bank account is not a number but a legally enforceable instrument backed by enforceable loan contracts. Number only measures the size of this instrument.  But, like I said... you wil learn the hard way what bitcoin really is.
The amount of intellectual rigidity you display is making me chuckle. Your kind is on its way out, friend. I'm not some conspiratorial nut. I'm pretty vanilla in the way that I see the current socio-political status-quo. But this status-quo will die a slow and painful death. And that is due to free market economics. It will not be feasible, effective or anything but cumbersome when we reach a certain level of advancement. Remember my words.

magneto
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February 06, 2018, 10:04:10 AM
 #31

Fiat currencies are not backed by anything. They used to be backed by silver and gold, aka assets that you can access, but now, they can just be printed out of thin air.

Based on your logic, gold is a ponzi scheme because a) people use it as a store of value and b) it has virtually no uses apart from some industrial applications which is so small that it can be neglected. Anything that does not originate from debt, apparently is a ponzi scheme.

A ponzi scheme, something like bitconnect, has a guy up top that is collecting all the revenue. Bitcoin hasn't got anyone doing that.

Bitcoin could crash, it could be eventually worthless, but dwhen that happens does it mean that it's a ponzi scheme? No.

fxsurfer
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February 06, 2018, 10:06:03 AM
 #32

Bitcoin is NOT a Ponzi scheme!

It is a currency competing for dominance! It will REPLACE the dollar! Thus, all dollars are converted into bitcoin. The more dollars converted to bitcoin the value of bitcoin goes up, because bitcoin is NON INFLATIONARY!!
You are wrong. Bitcoin is a number. Number is not a currency but mathematical object. A currency is legally enforceable instrument which originated from loan contracts in a specific country.

Bitcoin's inherent value comes from the technology. The internet was about as useful as bitcoin is now before people realized the potential and it was widely adopted. Ideologues will never care about the current fiat value of Bitcoin. It's the potential to bring economic slavery to its knees.  
You don't own technology by having numbers in your bitcoin wallet, which is why bitcoin's value cannot arise from the technology. It's a pretty simple syllogism.

What you do not seem to understand is that bitcoin is being given fiat value by speculators. That might be construed as being a ponzi. But the decentralized nature of the system allows anyone to use bitcoin as they please. Do you understand the technology behind bitcoin? Are you so closed-minded that you cannot see the massive wave of decentralization in technology all over the world? It comes in various degrees, but things from torrents, netflix and video streaming platforms like youtube all have a certain decentralizing nature (not completely, obviously) in common. People are allowed more freedom of choice, as funny as that may sound when referring to netflix or whatever (compared for example to classic TV), but it's the underlying reasoning for the advancement of this pattern.

If you cannot see this pattern, as early as it may be at this stage, I have wasted my time. Bitcoin, as a vehicle for speculation, is not something I'm particularly fond of. Sure, I'm making money off it here and there, won't complain. But it's not the reason I'm here. Decentralization is the future and bitcoin is one of its prophets. And I'll tell you why decentralization is the future. It's because it's efficient. Pragmatic. Imagine entire cities having no need for central government. Cities that run on their own. And so...so much more. That is the future my friend, and I laugh at those that cannot see it.

Value cannot be given by speculators. Only price can be given by speculators. Value is a capacity to satisfy human wants and it describes the benefits of ownership which include utility - the pleasure or satisfaction gained by consumption of a particular econimic good. Price on the other hand is the amount of money given in payment for something. If I pay $10,000 for a membership card in a Ponzi scheme, it doesn't follow that I gave this card a value. I didn't, I gave it a price. Again, it's a pretty simple syllogism.
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February 06, 2018, 10:13:21 AM
 #33

Bitcoin's inherent value comes from the technology.

That is, I'm afraid, completely wrong.  The technology is open source and so can be used by anyone to set-up their own blockchain.

Bitcoin's value is mostly from it's brand, the fact that most people have heard of it.

(There is a little bit of value from it being a means of exchange, but that value has almost been destroyed by its recent volatility - the number one requirement for a means of exchange is that it be reasonably stable.  That underlying value will return once the speculators have been burnt and left.)
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February 06, 2018, 10:16:57 AM
 #34

...nothing but empty numbers...

That's exactly what you have in your bank account, nothing but empty numbers, forget all those stories that you think you know about how things work because they are not true, if you still think that money is being created from people debt, you are completely lost, that's only a veil in front of your face

Be 100% sure my friend, there is bigger whales in the world than banks or even countries ...
What I have in my bank account is not a number but a legally enforceable instrument backed by enforceable loan contracts. Number only measures the size of this instrument.  But, like I said... you wil learn the hard way what bitcoin really is.

so all stocks on the stock market are a ponzi scheme too?

bitcoin functions like a limited stock of 21 million total. if people use fiat to buy bitcoin are they not transferring the debt value that fiat represents into the bitcoin which then gives bitcoin that utility as a debt instrument?

based on your points the stock market matches exactly bitcoin which would be governments support a ponzi scheme market.
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February 06, 2018, 10:19:05 AM
 #35

When the price of bitcoin fell sharply, there were always some people who came out and pointed out that bitcoin was a huge ponzi scheme.
I've not want to listen of there FUD, you don't know the mechanics of bitcoin, so why you say bitcoin is a ponzi scheme? Huh
Why I say bitcoin is a ponzi scheme? I explained why in my OP.
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February 06, 2018, 10:20:17 AM
 #36

When I presented arguments like the one in the the video below, people just ignored them. Now, they will learn the hard way what it means to be a part of a Ponzi scheme.

Bitcoin And Cryptocurrencies - Ponzi Schemes Dressed Up And Sold As Money
https://youtu.be/gcNngl8fCUY

EDIT:


Why bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme:

In a banking system all money comes from debt. So when new money, dollars for e.g., are created, in the same time, some individual, company, or organization became legally obligated to pay these dollars back. That's the nature of debt - it must be paid. In other words, every dollar that is currently in circulation, must eventually be returned to FED or commercial banks. That means that those who received dollar loans and put dollars into circulation are forced to get these dollars back by selling their goods or services to people who have dollars. Otherwise they will fail to make necessary loan payments and as a result they will be taken to court and the banks will seize their property.
So due to the fact that dollars come from debt and debt must be paid, people who have dollars do not have just a piece of paper with some numbers on it, but instead, they have legally enforceable rights to goods or services of people who received the loans. Fiat is therefore a legal instrument that grants its holder with legal path to restore the intrinsic value in some economic goods.

Cryptocurrencies on the other hand, didn't originated from debt, so nobody is legally obligated to use them to repay the debt, which is why cryptocurrency holders have nothing but empty numbers. And if a situation occurs where nobody wants to accept cryptocurrencies in exchange for goods and services, no legally enforceable right exist upon which they can get some kind of value out of them. Hence, all that these people have is hope and faith that someone will exchange their numbers for fiat money or economic goods, which is by definition a Ponzi scheme.

Why cryptocurrencies never were and never can be money: cryptocurrencies don't have value on their own and as such they cannot serve as a measure of value.

A measure of value is pretty simple concept. It expresses the value of one thing in terms of another. In principle anything that has value on its own can serve as a measure of value. For example a toothpick. Although the intrinsic value of a toothpick is very small it is not zero since toothpick has practical utility.  So perhaps the iPhone is worth 500,000 toothpicks. A shirt may be worth 25,000 toothpicks. One hour of guitar lesson may be worth 15,000 toothpicks. And so on. Since it has value on its own toothpick acts as a measure of value and we can use it to compare the value of different goods and services. The same is true for fiat currencies. Since fiat currencies are legal claims connected to property of borrowers through loan contracts we can easily measure how many units of newly created money corresponds to a particular good, service, claim or other asset. This legal connection to property is the reason why fiat currencies can be used as a measurement of value. This is also the reason why the exchange rates of fiat currencies maintain relatively stable and have low volatility. It is precisely because these currencies are legally connected to real property and real tangible goods.

On the other hand, in the case of cryptocurrencies, besides having zero intrinsic value they are not legally connected to property. In other words there are no enforceable contracts or collateral behind them. There is no legal claim that is measured with them. There is no right which is granted to their holders. All there is, is open source software which generates stores and transfers empty numbers between members. Given the fact that number is an abstract mathematical object thet has no value on its own it is impossible in principle for cryptocurrencies to serve as a measurement of value. This is the reason why crypto currencies never were and never can be money. Also this is the reason why their price is so volatile unstable and can jump from few cents to several thousand dollars. Since they have zero intrinsic value and no legal connection to property their price depends entirely on the number of people that enter into the scheme.
I don't agree with you.
Bitcoin had in the past a lot of crashes and he always rise up again.
I think everyone in afraid and pull there money.
I believe in a few months he will rise up again.
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February 06, 2018, 10:23:18 AM
 #37

...nothing but empty numbers...

That's exactly what you have in your bank account, nothing but empty numbers, forget all those stories that you think you know about how things work because they are not true, if you still think that money is being created from people debt, you are completely lost, that's only a veil in front of your face

Be 100% sure my friend, there is bigger whales in the world than banks or even countries ...
What I have in my bank account is not a number but a legally enforceable instrument backed by enforceable loan contracts. Number only measures the size of this instrument.  But, like I said... you wil learn the hard way what bitcoin really is.

so all stocks on the stock market are a ponzi scheme too?

bitcoin functions like a limited stock of 21 million total. if people use fiat to buy bitcoin are they not transferring the debt value that fiat represents into the bitcoin which then gives bitcoin that utility as a debt instrument?

based on your points the stock market matches exactly bitcoin which would be governments support a ponzi scheme market.
A stocks represents ownership of the corporation that produces tangible goods or services. Hence, this is not a Ponzi scheme.
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February 06, 2018, 10:48:36 AM
 #38

if you believe currency in a bank or fiat is safe and will stay stable i have to disapoint you.
In your video you are talking about banks if all banks are equal.
Do you have ever have heard about a Central Bank? (Or are you just trolling.)
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February 06, 2018, 11:03:18 AM
 #39

Bitcoin's inherent value comes from the technology.

That is, I'm afraid, completely wrong.  The technology is open source and so can be used by anyone to set-up their own blockchain.

Bitcoin's value is mostly from it's brand, the fact that most people have heard of it.

(There is a little bit of value from it being a means of exchange, but that value has almost been destroyed by its recent volatility - the number one requirement for a means of exchange is that it be reasonably stable.  That underlying value will return once the speculators have been burnt and left.)

I was not referring to fiat valuation. I was referring to value as in potential.
Bitcoin's fiat value does indeed come from the brand. But its value to the system is that it acts as a gateway and is, what I consider, the first prophet of true decentralization. It needs improvement. Bitcoin, as a brand might as well die one day. But having got us to a point where we no longer need it for the advancement of this goal, I say it deserves respect and recognition.

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February 06, 2018, 11:22:54 AM
 #40

...nothing but empty numbers...

That's exactly what you have in your bank account, nothing but empty numbers, forget all those stories that you think you know about how things work because they are not true, if you still think that money is being created from people debt, you are completely lost, that's only a veil in front of your face

Be 100% sure my friend, there is bigger whales in the world than banks or even countries ...
What I have in my bank account is not a number but a legally enforceable instrument backed by enforceable loan contracts. Number only measures the size of this instrument.  But, like I said... you wil learn the hard way what bitcoin really is.

so all stocks on the stock market are a ponzi scheme too?

bitcoin functions like a limited stock of 21 million total. if people use fiat to buy bitcoin are they not transferring the debt value that fiat represents into the bitcoin which then gives bitcoin that utility as a debt instrument?

based on your points the stock market matches exactly bitcoin which would be governments support a ponzi scheme market.
A stocks represents ownership of the corporation that produces tangible goods or services. Hence, this is not a Ponzi scheme.

there are stock companies that mine bitcoin hence that statement is invalid. bitcoin bought for fiat is transfer of debt which you stated fiat to be.

fiat is no better than bitcoin. if you disagree please explain zimbabwes crazy inflation if its a measure of debt. the apparent measure of debt isnt consistent as it diluted.

your fiat is more a value of trust you hold that it will remain an equal value of debt exchange. if that trust is destroyed by government then what you hold becomes a ponzi.

i get your general idea but if you believe bitcoin not to measure value than fiat should not be either.
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