bustabit – The original crash game

[RacingStar]

@devans
Can you provide evidence that the sites along with the bitcointalk account has not been sold?
Who holds the keys to the cold storage for the two sites?

@RHavar
Can you clarify if you still control any keys / multisig to any wallets for bustabit and bustadice, and if there was any changes in this since handing off the site to devans,  and if you still have sole access to the server that takes part in bustadice seed server?

[1714038647]

1714038647

[1714038647]

1714038647

[Lakai01]

@devans
Can you provide evidence that the sites along with the bitcointalk account has not been sold?
Who holds the keys to the cold storage for the two sites?

@RHavar
Can you clarify if you still control any keys / multisig to any wallets for bustabit and bustadice, and if there was any changes in this since handing off the site to devans,  and if you still have sole access to the server that takes part in bustadice seed server?

Just out of curiosity ... why are you asking those questions? Any concerns regarding the ownership/access to the keys?

[devans]

@devans
Can you provide evidence that the sites along with the bitcointalk account has not been sold?
Who holds the keys to the cold storage for the two sites?

I don't see how I could prove that, but I'm open to suggestions. What makes you think I've sold the sites or my bitcointalk account? oO

Nothing has changed with regards to the multisignature wallet: Ryan, myself and a trusted third party each hold a key to it and the wallet is still used as the primary storage for bustabit's and bustadice's funds.

[RHavar]

@RHavar
Can you clarify if you still control any keys / multisig to any wallets for bustabit and bustadice, and if there was any changes in this since handing off the site to devans,  and if you still have sole access to the server that takes part in bustadice seed server?

I still have exclusive and sole access to the audit-server used for bustadice -- along with being a keysigner for it's cold storage (in a 2-of-3 scheme). In this time, the cold wallet has never changed and Daniel still uses the same GPG key used to communicate with me as he did when first creating bustadice. I think however the strongest evidence to suggest that ownership has not changed would be that bustabit uses the same hashchain as originally created by Daniel. I can not imagine any sane person would operate bustabit knowing that another party knows all future games.

[RacingStar]

@devans
Can you provide evidence that the sites along with the bitcointalk account has not been sold?
Who holds the keys to the cold storage for the two sites?

I don't see how I could prove that, but I'm open to suggestions. What makes you think I've sold the sites or my bitcointalk account? oO

Nothing has changed with regards to the multisignature wallet: Ryan, myself and a trusted third party each hold a key to it and the wallet is still used as the primary storage for bustabit's and bustadice's funds.

Not easy to prove, if this account has access to an address which was previous posted and can sign a message perhaps?

I assigned a non-zero chance that the site was sold, hence my inquiry:
-Not mentioning the upcoming changes
-New quite harsh TOS

-"All funds of deleted dormant accounts including their balance and any bankroll investments are forfeited by the user and assumed by the operator."
 This should only apply to newly created accounts, imagine someone is in a coma for 2 years, users should also be notified by email of new TOS.
- There are more ethical ways of implementing this:
Dormant fee (like what banks do) OR User can specify an emergency cashout address which is used after two years OR All user must specify cashout address upon account creation, OR just don't have a dormant fee since most sites don't.

-"Other cryptocurrencies sent to the service's deposit addresses can not be accessed by the operator and will not be credited to the user's account or returned to the user."
A more ethical way would be doing what other exchanges have done, usually non recoverable for small amounts, recoverable at the sole discretion of the operator for amounts exceeding $xxxxx and will incur a fee of $1000+20% (random example).

-If there was a new owner, they possibly want double the profit, if bankroll reduction was the goal while increasing volume, the house edge could have been lowered to 0.75%, giving 0.25% to owner and 0.50% to investors, and increasing the dilution fee.

-I'll try to be non-bias, in favor of the site not sold: same hashchain as RHavar pointed out,  quick replies and transparency, no hard evidence of site sold.

I mainly just wanted to discuss this topic and bring it to attention, or as a possibility in the future.

[RacingStar]

@RHavar
Can you clarify if you still control any keys / multisig to any wallets for bustabit and bustadice, and if there was any changes in this since handing off the site to devans,  and if you still have sole access to the server that takes part in bustadice seed server?

I still have exclusive and sole access to the audit-server used for bustadice -- along with being a keysigner for it's cold storage (in a 2-of-3 scheme). In this time, the cold wallet has never changed and Daniel still uses the same GPG key used to communicate with me as he did when first creating bustadice. I think however the strongest evidence to suggest that ownership has not changed would be that bustabit uses the same hashchain as originally created by Daniel. I can not imagine any sane person would operate bustabit knowing that another party knows all future games.

Thanks for quick reply and stating your position.  That's a good point about the hashchain and strongly points to the site not being sold.  I will be PMing you something not regarding bustadice/bustabit, but related to my inquisition.

[JasonFC]

@devans
Can you provide evidence that the sites along with the bitcointalk account has not been sold?
Who holds the keys to the cold storage for the two sites?

I don't see how I could prove that, but I'm open to suggestions. What makes you think I've sold the sites or my bitcointalk account? oO

Nothing has changed with regards to the multisignature wallet: Ryan, myself and a trusted third party each hold a key to it and the wallet is still used as the primary storage for bustabit's and bustadice's funds.

Not easy to prove, if this account has access to an address which was previous posted and can sign a message perhaps?

I assigned a non-zero chance that the site was sold, hence my inquiry:
-Not mentioning the upcoming changes
-New quite harsh TOS

-"All funds of deleted dormant accounts including their balance and any bankroll investments are forfeited by the user and assumed by the operator."
 This should only apply to newly created accounts, imagine someone is in a coma for 2 years, users should also be notified by email of new TOS.
- There are more ethical ways of implementing this:
Dormant fee (like what banks do) OR User can specify an emergency cashout address which is used after two years OR All user must specify cashout address upon account creation, OR just don't have a dormant fee since most sites don't.

-"Other cryptocurrencies sent to the service's deposit addresses can not be accessed by the operator and will not be credited to the user's account or returned to the user."
A more ethical way would be doing what other exchanges have done, usually non recoverable for small amounts, recoverable at the sole discretion of the operator for amounts exceeding $xxxxx and will incur a fee of $1000+20% (random example).

-If there was a new owner, they possibly want double the profit, if bankroll reduction was the goal while increasing volume, the house edge could have been lowered to 0.75%, giving 0.25% to owner and 0.50% to investors, and increasing the dilution fee.

-I'll try to be non-bias, in favor of the site not sold: same hashchain as RHavar pointed out,  quick replies and transparency, no hard evidence of site sold.

I mainly just wanted to discuss this topic and bring it to attention, or as a possibility in the future.

Terms of service agreements have to err on the side of caution. It's unlikely that devans will enforce much of it (for example, a large percentage of bustabit's userbase is from the USA and the Netherlands, and he could have blocked their withdrawals at any point, but he continually chooses not to). Similarly, although devans is reserving the right to take over dormant accounts, I'm sure if a player resurfaced, devans would credit the balance appropriately. It's what I would do, at least.

Having a harsh agreement in place simply removes liability in extreme circumstances. For players with unreasonable demands and expectations, a harsh agreement lets the operator have peace of mind: they can use their discretion when it comes to issues like this. If devans receives Bitcoin Gold or Bitcoin Cash from a player, he can choose to return it at his own discretion, but a player has no right to demand it. This just makes things easier during operation as players know exactly what to expect.

As RHavar stated, seeing as that the hash chain for bustabit has not changed, I'd say there's a near zero chance that bustabit has changed hands.

[juzam1337]

Can we please have a feature how much fee we paid in total and until what profit the fee is paid already?

[devans]

Can we please have a feature how much fee we paid in total and until what profit the fee is paid already?

Yeah, the bankroll's profit ATH will be shown on the stats page starting with the next patch this Sunday. You can already see the commission investors have paid on the same page. Subtract 1,004.44752087 BTC from that figure in case you're looking for the commission since the recent change.

[juzam1337]

Can we please have a feature how much fee we paid in total and until what profit the fee is paid already?

Yeah, the bankroll's profit ATH will be shown on the stats page starting with the next patch this Sunday. You can already see the commission investors have paid on the same page. Subtract 1,004.44752087 BTC from that figure in case you're looking for the commission since the recent change.

I am more interested in the fee I paid, not the fee paid in total.

[JollyGood]

Terms of service agreements have to err on the side of caution. It's unlikely that devans will enforce much of it (for example, a large percentage of bustabit's userbase is from the USA and the Netherlands, and he could have blocked their withdrawals at any point, but he continually chooses not to). Similarly, although devans is reserving the right to take over dormant accounts, I'm sure if a player resurfaced, devans would credit the balance appropriately. It's what I would do, at least.

Having a harsh agreement in place simply removes liability in extreme circumstances. For players with unreasonable demands and expectations, a harsh agreement lets the operator have peace of mind: they can use their discretion when it comes to issues like this. If devans receives Bitcoin Gold or Bitcoin Cash from a player, he can choose to return it at his own discretion, but a player has no right to demand it. This just makes things easier during operation as players know exactly what to expect.

As RHavar stated, seeing as that the hash chain for bustabit has not changed, I'd say there's a near zero chance that bustabit has changed hands.

I am in no doubt that if ownership was to ever change hands the owner would give advance notice which would allow investors to pull out their funding (bankroll) any time they wanted before the websites were sold. To do anything less would be a completely reckless act and as we all know the websites and its owner has a great reputation and most (if not all) investors have complete confidence in him.

[JollyGood]

I am in no doubt that if ownership was to ever change hands the owner would give advance notice which would allow investors to pull out their funding (bankroll) any time they wanted before the websites were sold. To do anything less would be a completely reckless act and as we all know the websites and its owner has a great reputation and most (if not all) investors have complete confidence in him.

Have you even read this thread's history? Edit: Sorry, they are different threads.

This website has been "sold" fast multiple times to unknown buyers (I specially remember the first "sale" after the first owner got extorted or scared or something along those lines).  

Some speculate they were just little shell sells.  Why would someone have enough coins to buy a website like this and then need to give away most of their profits to someone else to bankroll it?

How many times has Bustabit/Bustadice been sold? I thought RHavar created it and at some point sold it to devans. I do not know anything about multiple sales of Bustabit/Bustadice.

The bankroll part is purely commercial. I have no idea how much the websites were sold for and I do not know for sure why devans does not return all the bankroll to investors so he can cover everything himself. You make a valid point about it though.

Personally I think there will be issues returning the bankroll because maybe investors also play on the websites themselves which means plenty of regular game players thus a regular recurring income, therefore losing them would affect the website income flow when investors go elsewhere with their funds.

Maybe devans can shed some light on it

[hopenotlate]

I am in no doubt that if ownership was to ever change hands the owner would give advance notice which would allow investors to pull out their funding (bankroll) any time they wanted before the websites were sold. To do anything less would be a completely reckless act and as we all know the websites and its owner has a great reputation and most (if not all) investors have complete confidence in him.

Have you even read this thread's history? Edit: Sorry, they are different threads.

This website has been "sold" fast multiple times to unknown buyers (I specially remember the first "sale" after the first owner got extorted or scared or something along those lines).  

Some speculate they were just little shell sells.  Why would someone have enough coins to buy a website like this and then need to give away most of their profits to someone else to bankroll it?

How many times has Bustabit/Bustadice been sold? I thought RHavar created it and at some point sold it to devans. I do not know anything about multiple sales of Bustabit/Bustadice.

-snip-

Quoting an old post of mine about this matter :

Is bustabit first crash game?

Yes, It was called moneypot when it was first announced and launched here back in 2014. Then it was rebranded to bustabit and in latter moment it was, as far as I understood, recoded and modified to bustabit 2.0.

and who invented crash game?

As far as I know user espringe invented it; btw it's a pity he is not anymore around here on bitcointalk.

Here is original announcement thread : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=709185.0

Hope I remember things correctly , maybe Devans or Rhavar might correct me.

So, unless I miss something, bustabit (formerly moneypot) was sold two times : from espringe to Rhavar and then from Rhavar to Devans.

[DarkStar_]

Some crazy whale action last night:


EasternUnion walked away with just under 160 BTC of profit 

[StackGambler]

News from the bustabit Discord, users from multiple countries are reporting that both bustabit and bustadice are down.

Edit: It appears that people connected to the site can still play (and not chat), but anyone who refreshes or tries to connect will get a DNS error

[malevolent]

Can confirm, doesn't work, doesn't work over Tor with different circuits, doesn't work over VPN. IP addresses from multiple European countries and the US. https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/ doesn't show anything. How long has it been down for others?

edit: both sites work now

[StackGambler]

Can confirm, doesn't work, doesn't work over Tor with different circuits, doesn't work over VPN. IP addresses from multiple European countries and the US. https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/ doesn't show anything. How long has it been down for others?

Not long it seems, first report was at 04:52. Also, games seem to be running fine with players playing normally (for those who are still connected). Pretty weird. Daniel is probably asleep so I'm sure it'll be fixed up in the AM.

[sunsilk]

News from the bustabit Discord, users from multiple countries are reporting that both bustabit and bustadice are down.

Edit: It appears that people connected to the site can still play (and not chat), but anyone who refreshes or tries to connect will get a DNS error

Visited bustadice and it says

Code:

Error 523 - Origin is Unreachable

The same error for bustabit

How long has it been down for others?

I think just for few hours. I've visited them earlier this day and it's still fine.

Edit: both are now in maintenance  and fixed

[JollyGood]

Currently showing: "Maintenance"   Both are down, Bustabit and Bustadice.

So, unless I miss something, bustabit (formerly moneypot) was sold two times : from espringe to Rhavar and then from Rhavar to Devans.

Thank you for the information

Some crazy whale action last night: EasternUnion walked away with just under 160 BTC of profit  

160BTC. Now we are taking about phenomenal amounts of money. I wonder how many other gaming/casino sites have users walking away with that sort of cash. Plenty of users, trust, reputation and investment is needed to generate those sorts of amounts.

[StackGambler]

Everything is back up and good to go now