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[btcTreuhand]

Sorry,  you write nonsense.

The only acceptable reason to hold withdrawals is in prospect of the customer, when there is suspicion that the account was hacked.

In case that you need stronger evidence, you must put the TRADING on hold (your service) and allow withdrawal of funds (money of customers) in the way that the user can use other exchanges instead as long as you need for acceptance of the new, stronger ID-evidence.

It is NOT MY problem that you change your policy and without prior notice of such a change you ask for stronger evidence - just after a trade was made.

If you would really act according to that need, you would block trading and offer an UPLOAD for such a file. You would not blackmail users by taking their money, call it "put withdrawal on hold" and have not "enough time due to so many tickets".

In case that is takes so many days for the evidence to become accepted by you, it must result in a loss for your company by not providing service to such customers in the waiting queue.

Instead, you forward the loss to your customers and tell me that it is MY problem that YOU have too many tickets open. It would not be MY problem, but YOURS, if you would have blocked my trading and let me withdraw my Bitcoins. Then I could use other exchanges...

It's not MY issue, it's YOURS. You made it my by acting like a thief and I doubt that you will pay for my losses due to your "having to many open tickets", will you compensate me?

And concerning the question about "re-sale" of Bitcoins: everyone  re-sells Bitcoins - in case that he has not mined them before. Most people do not mine, thus naturally, nearly everyone who sells them, is re-selling them. I sell Bitcoins that I bought before.

Once again:
If you need to get more evidence about a user, then any user will understand that he can either provide the evidence and continue using your service or stop using your service and withdraw what is on his accounts at your exchange.
I'm not arguing about that.

But not letting users withdraw their money is a different thing. That is how the MTGox's scam started. No bank would and could do this by their own decision - but in the only case: when the bank is bankrupt and they simply CANNOT release money because it's gone.

In case that you want to answer, tell me what exactly do you mean with: "and we cannot release funds until we have this updated information".

A) why you CANNOT? What law is applied that hinders your company to behave like a serious company? Tell me the evidence for this "CANNOT" - until you will do so, I believe that kraken just decided by own decision, that they WANT NOT. Most likely to put more pressure on the customers.

B) in the case that you would NOT receive updated information by a user, will you confiscate his funds? If so, please show me the paragraph in your T&C and the law of your country allowing you to confiscate funds of people you let trade, but later decide that you need more information about/from them and they do not want to deliver them to you.

Regards
BS

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[Bonez0r]

[...]

In case that you want to answer, tell me what exactly do you mean with: "and we cannot release funds until we have this updated information".

A) why you CANNOT? What law is applied that hinders your company to behave like a serious company? Tell me the evidence for this "CANNOT" - until you will do so, I believe that kraken just decided by own decision, that they WANT NOT. Most likely to put more pressure on the customers.

B) in the case that you would NOT receive updated information by a user, will you confiscate his funds? If so, please show me the paragraph in your T&C and the law of your country allowing you to confiscate funds of people you let trade, but later decide that you need more information about/from them and they do not want to deliver them to you.

There is one simple reason to hold your funds: AML (anti money laundering) regulations. Kraken is required by law to put withdrawals on hold if they are not sure about the ID of the user. Why your ID is suddenly not clear is another matter and i have no idea what caused it. But does it not make sense to you that if someone is laundering money, that the logical thing to do is to make sure that person can't withdraw the money and disappear with it? Nobody is saying you're laundering money, but this is why that regulation exists and you somehow became tangled up in it by mistake.

[JanpriX]

Hello Dargo,

I've been trading with Kraken now for a few months and I noticed few hours ago that your site seems to load slower than normal. I checked my internet speed and I can verify that it is not in my network's problem. Do you happen to have issues right in your site?

[btcTreuhand]

Hi Bonez0r

Well, you are just "quite right":

"Money laundering regulations" could be miss-used for everything...

A company must make sure to comply with the regulations and NOT LET PEOPLE LAUNDER MONEY. So when they are unsure whether a user is laundering or not, they must PUT ON HOLD THE TRADING-functions for this user until the situation is cleared.

Kraken ist NOT Law Enforcement! Even Police cannot take your money simply because they might have a suspicion of a crime! There must be a JUDGE, who decides that your money will be confiscated and you have all possibilities of the juridical system to defend yourself.
Kraken takes according to their decision: no judge, no defense, just simply blackmail and theft.

If kraken would present to me a official paper of a JUDGE telling them that they HAVE TO HOLD MY MONEY, because of an official-investigation (not some private-company-investigators!) is showing that some crime is going on, THEN, of course, they must hold the money. Then, of course, they must show that their "CANNOT" is due to a COURT's desicion that they can scan and show to me.

But saying "of some regulation asks us to do this" is too weak argument. Where the regulation is written that banks /private companies might simply hold other people money in case that those people did not UPDATE some information they never knew they have to UPDATE it? SHOW me teh RULES, not just blablabla, show me the paragraph, the law.

Example for you, Bonez0r: the law says: when you see a crime, you must try to hinder it or try to hold the suspect until police comes - as long as it does not endanger you. If I go to the marketplace, see someone who looks suspicious, go there, take his money, and tell him: "I don't give back your money until you prove to me that you are not a criminal, to me you look suspicious!" - what is that? Theft, camouflaged as something "according to some regulation".

We came to a situation when a private company (kraken), purely on their guess or suspicion can take money from their customers to enforce a wished-for behaviour, so kraken is a private LAW ENFORCEMENT?

Very simple: if kraken would think I was laundering money when using their system, they must not let me use their service (exchange) but to confiscate my money, a "thought of a private company" is not enough. To confiscate money, a JUDGE must make a decision, it must be announced and defense must be allowed.

Think about this: why should a re-newal of my ID proof I'm NOT laundering? Of if I answer to a question? Wouldn't I lie if I'd launder money?
What kraken asked me about is  NOT any proof that I do not launder money! They asked for a  proof: "yes, I'm still the same person dealing with you"! I already proved my identity to kraken. If they think it expired, OK, I send evidence again. But taking my money is nothing else than theft and it's sad to see that meanwhile it's enough to say "some regulations somewhere of someone give me the right to take away your money, if I think you.../if you do not..." that is the END of "law and justice".

You people, we people, MUST make clear that private companies are NOT Law Enforcement and whenever a company like kraken starts behaving like it was God, the Allmighty, can take what they want and do what they want, just need to say "it's because of some regulation!", it MUST NOT be accepted.

It's deceit, if it was about stopping me from possible money-laundering, kraken would need to hinder the TRADE, not the withdrawal.

I do comply to MY COUNTRIES anti-money-laundering rules. In case that a court asked kraken do hold my money, I want to see that court's decision kraken is action upon.

But, actually, Kraken is acting upon their own decision and taking/holding customers money is theft, so simple as that.

I'm asking other users of kraken that have been miss-treated by kraken, support and policy, to contact me (PM) and sue kraken for this behaviour. They PRETEND it's because some obscure rule, but actually it's their own decision.

Kind regards
BS

[btcTreuhand]

Hi Bonez0r

One more thing:
You wrote: "to make sure that person can't withdraw the money and disappear with it".

1. If you launder money, this is a crime. To act like if someone is committing a crimt must not be based on a suspicion, but on a court's ruling.
It's not the way that some person of kraken's staff can decide whether or not some user is laundering money. (you know it's bullshit anyway, as the real money-laundering happens in USD through casinos and hotels, as well as the known money-launder banks like HSBC. They lauder 5 x the complete amount of all bitcoins per day.)

2. "That person" is identified to them. Just because my passport, I used as ID-document to Kraken 3 years ago, expired 2 years ago, I'm still the same person. I receive the money to MY bank account inside an EU-country under my name. I withdrew to that account some times, already.

How could I possibly "disappear with the money"?

Even if someone is really laundering money on kraken, it's not kraken to procescute and investigate, punish and take, but LAW ENFORCEMENT. Police, judges, lawyers would be engaged in this. And in case that person would manage to disappear, law enforcement would have to hunt him - NOT Kraken.

The ONLY think kraken must do, is NOT LET HIM TRADE. The "laundering" is done through TRADES, not by withdrawing!

But they LET ME trade and then immediately take my money!

If they have reason to believe some user is laundering money, they must
a.) not let him trade
b.) denunciate his data to LE

They are not allowed to:
1. punish the person
2. take the persons money/assets to enforce some action/reaction on the person

If the person accused for money laundering can proof before court that he is NOT guilty, he is compensated for the losses created by the investigation and confiscation of his funds.
When kraken desides that "now we have all information", I may simply continue, but the damages their actions made won't be compensated.

Kraken behaves clearly UNLAWFUL. Many companies do, but that is no argument. But Law Enforcement is happy about such unlawful companies, because they make their (LE's) work easier. So kraken behaves UNLAWFUL, but in prospect of LE - thus no one cares.

Kraken can simply blackmail people, hold funds, create damages - and if it proves that the person did nothing wrong, the damage remains on the suspect. Police cannot do this, so their happy if companies behave like private LE without the DEFENSE for the suspect.

In normal juristical view, the suspect is NOT guilty as long as his crime has not been proven.
For Kraken, I'm GUILTY (I'm treated like a criminal - damage is put on me) - as long as THEY do not have the TIME to accept my documents! You see the difference?

Regards
BS

[mayax]

[...]

In case that you want to answer, tell me what exactly do you mean with: "and we cannot release funds until we have this updated information".

A) why you CANNOT? What law is applied that hinders your company to behave like a serious company? Tell me the evidence for this "CANNOT" - until you will do so, I believe that kraken just decided by own decision, that they WANT NOT. Most likely to put more pressure on the customers.

B) in the case that you would NOT receive updated information by a user, will you confiscate his funds? If so, please show me the paragraph in your T&C and the law of your country allowing you to confiscate funds of people you let trade, but later decide that you need more information about/from them and they do not want to deliver them to you.

There is one simple reason to hold your funds: AML (anti money laundering) regulations. Kraken is required by law to put withdrawals on hold if they are not sure about the ID of the user. Why your ID is suddenly not clear is another matter and i have no idea what caused it. But does it not make sense to you that if someone is laundering money, that the logical thing to do is to make sure that person can't withdraw the money and disappear with it? Nobody is saying you're laundering money, but this is why that regulation exists and you somehow became tangled up in it by mistake.

what law? Kraken is not license so with what right do they require documents?

Kraken is operating out of law.

[Bonez0r]

You are understandably upset, but imo there are some flaws in your arguments. I would have left it alone but you make it look like Kraken has done something horribly wrong, when this is imo not the case at all and people might get the wrong impression.

Kraken ist NOT Law Enforcement! Even Police cannot take your money simply because they might have a suspicion of a crime! There must be a JUDGE, who decides that your money will be confiscated and you have all possibilities of the juridical system to defend yourself.
Kraken takes according to their decision: no judge, no defense, just simply blackmail and theft.

A hypothetical money launderer would use a fake ID. With an unknown identity, how could there ever be an arrest, let alone a court case? Impossible. The criminal would just withdraw the money and disappear without a trace. So authorities do the only thing they can think of, which is to keep the money hostage (or rather they force Kraken to do it for them). Kraken has no choice in this, they either do what the law says or they will be punished.

the law says: when you see a crime, you must try to hinder it or try to hold the suspect until police comes - as long as it does not endanger you. If I go to the marketplace, see someone who looks suspicious, go there, take his money, and tell him: "I don't give back your money until you prove to me that you are not a criminal, to me you look suspicious!"

In this example you're not allowed to take action until you actually SEE a crime. Simply looking suspicious isn't enough. The moment a crime happens, the criminal can be stopped by you, other bystanders or police. This is possible because the criminal is physically present. You can't compare it with an online place and no physical presence and no verifiable ID. The regulations in those two cases are different because the situations are so different.

We came to a situation when a private company (kraken), purely on their guess or suspicion can take money from their customers to enforce a wished-for behaviour, so kraken is a private LAW ENFORCEMENT?

Going back to your marketplace example: like you said, the law says "when you see a crime, you must try to hinder it or try to hold the suspect until police comes". Suppose you hinder a thief in a marketplace and the guy tells you: "We came to a situation when a private party (you), purely because the law says so, can apprehend another marketplace goer (me) to enforce a wished-for behaviour, so you are a private LAW ENFORCEMENT?"
...No, you, as a third party, are required by law to take action on behalf of the law enforcement. Just as Kraken is required to hold your money until they can verify your ID again. If they break this law they could lose their license to do business.


But really Kraken should have given you ample warning before the ID expired, like six months in advance. If they gave no warning then that's obviously bad, but if this would the normal procedure we would see the same complaints all the time. Probably an unlucky mistake in your case. Hope they get it sorted out soon.

[btcTreuhand]

Would you be so kind to show me that law?
" Just as Kraken is required to hold your money until they can verify your ID again. If they break this law they could lose their license to do business."

Why kraken cannot let me UPLOAD the ID? It could be done in minutes, but NO, I cannot UPLOAD it. I cannot delete the old and put a new one there.
Why kraken needs DAYS or weeks?

But first of all, they would have to block the TRADE and let me withdraw my bitcoins.

My ID expired 2 years ago. So I did lot of trades since then, no one cared. Then out of nothing, they HOLD my money, beause the ID expired?

It's good-sounding nonsense.
Last Friday morning (UTC) I send the encrypted ID-jpg a 3rd time. Since then, support is not bothering AT ALL with me. Unfortunately, they have so many tickets... because they stole the money from so many people?

If suspect someone could use your service to launder money, you are NOT POLICE, do do not make traps for that person but you REFUSE to become PART in his criminal business, by REFUSING TO TRADE. Not by taking his money.

You argue with law, but you do not QUOTE law. Tell me exactly, there US law tells private companies to keep money of their customers in case that a customer does not update some information he did not know it had to be updated.

If you come to a shop, pay lot of money for some item - but the shop-owner thinks that your money is "illegally acquired" and that he must not make deals with you, what does he do? Keeps your money AND the goods - and has then NO TIME to check.

My money is ON HOLD from February the 2nd. ..

Last thing:
"Kraken has done something horribly wrong": well actually no-one was raped, murdered, tortured - so of what normal people thing of "do something horribly wrong", that did not happen.
BUT, for an exchange, stealing money from their customers, that is "horribly wrong". Can you imagine that you come to your bank and they tell you: "sorry man, we need another ID from you, to pay-out you YOUR money to you."
OK, you present that ID and they say: "yes, nice, we'll look to it, but we have too much work, these days, checking oh so many IDs, please wait some days or week until we give you your money."

So you do not get the money from our bank, cannot buy your daily needs and wait for them to prove that you are you -while keeping your money and having LOTS OF TIME for this?

You would not accept it from your bank, but because it's "online" and there are some "obscure laws and regulation no-one quotes", but use as reason for their actions, you think it's OK, because if I was a criminal, I could disappear with my money?

It is NOT UP TO ANY private company to decide whether the money someone brings there is illegally acquired or not (that is up to a COURT!). IF the company has the suspicion it may be illegal, they MUST REFUSE BUSINESS - or in cases when the suspicion is huge, they MUST INFORM the governmental anti-money-laundering-office - but refuse business!

But kraken DID business and then confiscated the money. That is not OK and unlawful. Whether it is horrible or not is up to the point of view. I I would relay on that money for my living and would now not be able to buy my nutrition and die - because kraken has not managed to check my documents fast enough, it would be ok for you, because "the law requires" it? Exaggerate to see clear:

keep money from customers can be done only in two cases:
1. suspicion of hacked account and thus protection of the customer from getting his funds stolen.
2. court's command to secure funds of a person that is being investigated because of some suspected crime - suspected by a court.

Best regards
BS

[btcTreuhand]

Post Scriptum:

AND, the company MUST show evidence for either of the two cases: present a changed account or BTC-address to the user and ask him, whether it was changed by him - or present the court's command on which the company is acting against it's customer.
AS Kraken has not presented me either, neither of the two cases can be claimed.

Kraken didn't even bother to quote their T&C's and the applying US-regulations and laws. If law would offer the possibility to a company to hold their customers funds against the will of the customer, it would 100% as well offer the way for the customer to defend himself against miss-use of this law by the company.
If Kraken would present the laws and regulation, I would know what official to contact to make them aware of a company that may miss-use anti-laundering-regulations to scam people. If they hold my money out of nothing and do not offer a fast and secure way to update the ID - and need many days to check it! - Why shouldn't I suspect kraken of behaving in a criminal way?

The most suspect thing is that they simply put it on hold. One would expect that there is a clear explanation, including quotations of T&C and US-laws according to which such an action is lawful and giving information about how to defend oneself: where to complain to and what officials to contact in case that miss-use is suspected.
I asked 3 times for the contact to the boss of "William, the investigator" (support) to complain: NO ANSWER.
That was when I decided to go to this forum and into public. They play ON TIME. It's 100% a play on time and that reminds me on how MTGox went down: they put the withdrawals of more and more people on hold.

It seems, they even do not care about my POSTING HERE. No answers, no quotations, no support giving a CLEAR information.
The first message from support (after I noticed after two days + weekend that the money did not arrive on my bank's account and wrote support, what is the problem??), so their first answer was: "we need ID-Photo and know whether you re-sell or not. Present the asked information and the money will be released immediately."
I answered: OK, but I don't want to send via unencrypted e-mail - and upload is not possible (because of KRAKEN, not me!)
Kraken answered next day: OK, send PGP encrypted to support@kraken.com
I got the key from their website and sent.
And the next day - Kraken wrote: wrong PGP key. You need the key from the support, not the exchange (homepage). Get it at MIT.
I wrote: I do not know how to get the key from MIT. Please send your key attacted to message or downoad-link or GPG command-line for importing
Again, one day waiting, then Kraken answered: OK, attached

At first I did not find it attached as it was a LINK in the message below and send a very upset reply. Then I found it, imported it - and forgot to encrypt the mail, so I did what I wanted not to: send my photo-id via e-mail unenrypted. I then encrypted it and send once more encrypted, to the PGP key the support (William) sent me.

But, instead of releasing the funds, kraken wrote me again, one day later:
Thank you, we will have it decrypted and checked. Due to so much work, it will take some time.
No contact to someone in the company to complain to (MUST be present according to law, is called: "quality control"), no instruction how to complain at official places.

But Kraken does not seem to care much about such POSTS like mine in the public, do they?
Why? Because the shit hit the fan already and my post is the smallest problem they are facing?
Wouldn't you expect a serious company to make sure that people like me who post in public forums would be openly cared about in the way that other customers see that kraken does it's very best to solve the case fast and making upset customers happy again - that would be good PR, no?

Dargo might argue, that he has PCT and does not work on Sundays... no one works? Too many tickets or TOO FEW WORKERS LEFT?
It is at least outrageous, if not criminal.
And Dargo, if you disagree, prove that: quote the rules and regulations where they apply, offer the contact for complaining, the steps for juristical defense against kraken, what court to contact and all the "normal stuff", banks and all companies present to their customers in case of disputes.

[pukis]

i wanted to deposit my EUR to Kraken, but after reading this thread i will use other exchange.

[btcTreuhand]

And another day passed... NO ANSWER from Kraken, no money from kraken... just SILENCE.

Support stopped communication with me after they could not deny having received the information they asked for.

Anyone with an idea what to do now?

[btcTreuhand]

Today, I was told that I cannot be informed because of "compliance reasons" and that I need to wait longer.

[stereotype]

Today, I was told that I cannot be informed because of "compliance reasons" and that I need to wait longer.

To my understanding, companies like Kraken are required to whore themselves/to be seen to, go through the motions of a client/s audit process, every now and then, to tick boxs for the authorities. Maybe you were the sacrificial lamb in this case.
Not the first time ive read posts, where the user is made to feel like a criminal, all of a sudden.

   

[btcTreuhand]

First they hold the money.
After I COMPLAIN to support, they tell me: give us new ID & answer, then you will immediately get your money.
After I give ID and answer, they tell me: we need to decrypt, hold on.
After they surely have decrypted the ID and answer, they say thank you, hold on.
After some more days after I complained again and again, they say: sorry, "compliance", we cannot tell you anything, but will one day.

All my questions about:
- where can I complain about the situation (company & external)?
- what court to contact in case of disputes
- which ways of defense are present and how to go them

Are ignored. I can SAY anything that sounds nice, like "because of compliance reasons we cannot tell"... compliance to WHAT exactly?
Quote it, Kraken!

They LET ME trade, no problem (just like MTGox), when when I want to withdraw my money, then all of a sudden, they cannot let this happen, and cannot tell me why, first ID missing, then compliance then...?... I want to see the law forbidding them to tell me why exactly they hold my money and which, exactly, steps I can take to defend myself.

to be continued...

[Bonez0r]

Feature request: the ability to filter (not just sort) tables. It would be great if for example i can enable a filter and see only a certain currency pair in my closed orders.

[mayax]

First they hold the money.
After I COMPLAIN to support, they tell me: give us new ID & answer, then you will immediately get your money.
After I give ID and answer, they tell me: we need to decrypt, hold on.
After they surely have decrypted the ID and answer, they say thank you, hold on.
After some more days after I complained again and again, they say: sorry, "compliance", we cannot tell you anything, but will one day.

All my questions about:
- where can I complain about the situation (company & external)?
- what court to contact in case of disputes
- which ways of defense are present and how to go them

Are ignored. I can SAY anything that sounds nice, like "because of compliance reasons we cannot tell"... compliance to WHAT exactly?
Quote it, Kraken!

They LET ME trade, no problem (just like MTGox), when when I want to withdraw my money, then all of a sudden, they cannot let this happen, and cannot tell me why, first ID missing, then compliance then...?... I want to see the law forbidding them to tell me why exactly they hold my money and which, exactly, steps I can take to defend myself.

to be continued...

that's why the people should always use a financial licensed exchanger.

[btcTreuhand]

Well, no news today, but it seems I'm the only one complaining - so it does not look like "more and more withdrawals are on hold".

I tend to believe that (like stereotype wrote:) "Maybe you were the sacrificial lamb in this case".

Thus, it looks like I need to wait. And wait.

[Plaubird]

Dear all, I bought my first few bitcoins this week and tried to trade with KRAKEN. Is this right, that the only fees are some % of the trading volume, so that I can practise with some very small trades? Thanks a lot and a good sunday

[Millionero]

Dear all, I bought my first few bitcoins this week and tried to trade with KRAKEN. Is this right, that the only fees are some % of the trading volume, so that I can practise with some very small trades? Thanks a lot and a good sunday

https://www.kraken.com/en-us/help/fees
If you put an order on the book (limit order) and it gets filled, the fee is 0.16%
For a market order, the fee is 0.26%

[ETCethereum]

in kraken open lending service, same bitfinex and poloniex or not