[ANN] KRAKEN.COM - Exchange with USD EUR GBP JPY CAD BTC LTC XRP NMC XDG STR ETH

[Dargo]

Thanks for sharing ideas about how to promote the exchange everyone. We certainly plan on doing more in the way of promotion soon, but as it says in the OP, we've planned a gradual launch from the start to give ourselves time to get things working smoothly. Our momentum of new accounts continues unabated since the Fidor announcement, but it hasn't translated into volume as much as expected. The volume seems to be growing overall, but it varies a lot, and really dropped off over the weekend. Getting more users to the exchange will certainly help, but I'd say the other half of the puzzle is getting users who've already joined to step up and put some limit orders on the book.

[1713987071]

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[1713987071]

1713987071

[Dargo]

I think Kraken's offer is near sufficient to be called different from its competitors, e.g. leveraged trading! I would love to try it. Out of curiosity: what is the interest at which you lend? I didn't find that info on the website.

All of our fees are listed here:

https://www.kraken.com/help/fees-and-pair-info

The absence of an interest rate for margin trading means that there isn't any interest rate charged. But I suppose that since people expect there to be an interest rate, we should be more explicit about it. Keep in mind that we may charge an interest rate in the future, but initially there won't be one (at least that's the current plan). Also, keep in mind that margin trading won't be safe until the volume picks up, so it's disabled for now.

I think Krakens communication is not sufficient for what is needed to achieve success.

I'm sure there are some points we could communicate better about, but I'm puzzled as to why you think communication in general is a problem. It seems to me that we're making a greater effort to communicate than any other exchange I'm aware of.

Something needs to change as the volume is not picking up, right?

Dargo, could this slow volume picking up be due to your jurisdiction ? Can you change jurisdiction?

I don't understand the suggestion here - how would a change of "jurisdiction" have any impact on volume?

[Loozik]

The absence of an interest rate for margin trading means that there isn't any interest rate charged.

I could now hypothetically borrow $1 million from you to purchase BTC and keep this interest-free loan even for a few months or years (assuming the price goes up) or borrow BTC 5k at no interest to go short? This is your big selling point. No other exchange or broker the world over has interest free loans for its customers! You should communicate this somehow to your potential customers.

There is a picture on your website that shows leverage available on your platform: none, 1 (?), 2, 5, 10, 250. Am I correct to assume that you do not offer 250:1 leverage to the so called US residents? If I recollect correctly only 50:1 leverage is permitted for majors and 20:1 for minors by US regulations.

Keep in mind that we may charge an interest rate in the future, but initially there won't be one (at least that's the current plan).

I will keep it in mind.

I'm sure there are some points we could communicate better about, but I'm puzzled as to why you think communication in general is a problem.

I used ''communication'' in its marketing (not customer services) meaning, e.g. you would be better off (reached more potential customers) if you moved this thread from Services announcement (almost nobody looks here) to a more frequently visited category of bitcointalk.

I don't understand the suggestion here - how would a change of "jurisdiction" have any impact on volume?

One of the reasons for picking up volume slowly MIGHT be US jurisdiction. People (including me) might be afraid to trade via an exchange regulated by the so called US laws and its management being a potential target of the people doing business as SEC, FBI and other 3-letter agencies.

[Dargo]

The absence of an interest rate for margin trading means that there isn't any interest rate charged.

I could now hypothetically borrow $1 million from you to purchase BTC and keep this interest-free loan even for a few months or years (assuming the price goes up) or borrow BTC 5k at no interest to go short? This is your big selling point. No other exchange or broker the world over has interest free loans for its customers! You should communicate this somehow to your potential customers.

There is a picture on your website that shows leverage available on your platform: none, 1 (?), 2, 5, 10, 250. Am I correct to assume that you do not offer 250:1 leverage to the so called US residents? If I recollect correctly only 50:1 leverage is permitted for majors and 20:1 for minors by US regulations.

There will be a $25K borrowing limit for individuals, so you couldn't borrow $1 million. We will communicate it, but it's not important to communicate when margin and leverage are disabled. The last thing we need is a ton of people singing up to get no-interest loans for margin trading only to learn that it's disabled anyway. Not fruitful for us or them.

I'm sure there are some points we could communicate better about, but I'm puzzled as to why you think communication in general is a problem.

I used ''communication'' in its marketing (not customer services) meaning, e.g. you would be better off (reached more potential customers) if you moved this thread from Services announcement (almost nobody looks here) to a more frequently visited category of bitcointalk.

I see - I thought maybe you meant it in a marketing sense.

I don't understand the suggestion here - how would a change of "jurisdiction" have any impact on volume?

One of the reasons for picking up volume slowly MIGHT be US jurisdiction. People (including me) might be afraid to trade via an exchange regulated by the so called US laws and its management being a potential target of the people doing business as SEC, FBI and other 3-letter agencies.

Yeah, some people seem to have the idea that for an exchange that's not based in the US, it's not subject to US regulations. This is simply false. All bitcoin exchanges around the world are equally subject to US regulations. Among people who understand that much, there's another view that says you're safer with an exchange outside the US because it will be harder for regulators to reach that exchange. This view isn't obviously false, but it's not so obviously true that I'd want to have a lot of money riding on it. And it's not clearly true that a non-compliant exchange abroad is safer than a fully compliant exchange in the US. 

We think that it's much safer to have a fully compliant exchange, even if it's in the US, and the best place to figure out exactly what it takes to be fully compliant is right here in the states.

[Loozik]

There will be a $25K borrowing limit for individuals, so you couldn't borrow $1 million.

OK, good to know this. Is $25k both for fiat and equivalent in crypto or the limit for crypto is going to be different?

We will communicate it, but it's not important to communicate when margin and leverage are disabled.

When realistically will the leverage be enabled / what conditions must be met for you to enable it?

[Dargo]

There will be a $25K borrowing limit for individuals, so you couldn't borrow $1 million.

OK, good to know this. Is $25k both for fiat and equivalent in crypto or the limit for crypto is going to be different?

It would be a $25K equivalent limit for all margin positions an individual account has regardless of what currency they are borrowing. There could be other limits too if we had a limited supply of some currency to lend.

We will communicate it, but it's not important to communicate when margin and leverage are disabled.

When realistically will the leverage be enabled / what conditions must be met for you to enable it?

I haven't heard any discussion of precise conditions that would have to be met, but we'd have to get much higher volume (and more consistent) than we have now. There are ways to impose further limits initially that would make it much safer for lower volume, so we might be able to step up the launch that way. There's definitely no ETA for margin trading at this point though. 

[Dargo]

Crypto Pumpkins at the Kraken office:

http://imgur.com/a/GJlKI

 

[Roy Badami]

It appears that the standard terms and conditions require me to agree to terms relating to margin trades.  Is it possible to open a non-margin account?

roy

[Dargo]

It appears that the standard terms and conditions require me to agree to terms relating to margin trades.  Is it possible to open a non-margin account?

roy

Every account will be eligible for margin trading when margin trading becomes available, so we don't offer non-margin accounts. But margin trading wouldn't come up for you as an issue unless you chose to margin trade - it's entirely optional. And margin trading is currently disabled until we have more volume on the exchange. 

[Roy Badami]

It appears that the standard terms and conditions require me to agree to terms relating to margin trades.  Is it possible to open a non-margin account?

roy

Every account will be eligible for margin trading when margin trading becomes available, so we don't offer non-margin accounts. But margin trading wouldn't come up for you as an issue unless you chose to margin trade - it's entirely optional. And margin trading is currently disabled until we have more volume on the exchange.  

Trading accounts that can result in a liability exceeding the funds deposited always make me nervous, I'm afraid.  It looks like I can use a yubikey, which would help reassure me against the risk of liability resulting from unauthorized margin trades...

I just hope it's not going to be too easy to accidentally create a margin trade, though. (ETA: or any other trade which creates such liability, such as a trade with T+2 settlement.)

roy

[Dargo]

It appears that the standard terms and conditions require me to agree to terms relating to margin trades.  Is it possible to open a non-margin account?

roy

Every account will be eligible for margin trading when margin trading becomes available, so we don't offer non-margin accounts. But margin trading wouldn't come up for you as an issue unless you chose to margin trade - it's entirely optional. And margin trading is currently disabled until we have more volume on the exchange.  

Trading accounts that can result in a liability exceeding the funds deposited always make me nervous, I'm afraid.  It looks like I can use a yubikey, which would help reassure me against the risk of liability resulting from unauthorized margin trades...

I just hope it's not going to be too easy to accidentally create a margin trade, though. (ETA: or any other trade which creates such liability, such as a trade with T+2 settlement.)

roy

I understand - margin trading is turned off by default for all trades. You have to toggle a button to turn it on, so it'd be pretty hard to do by accident I think. I don't think there's any liability issue involved with a settlement period, but I'll check on this.

I think it would be a nice feature to add the ability to disable margin trading, or even trading entirely for vacations and other periods of inactivity. It could be coupled with the global settings lock, explained here:

https://www.kraken.com/help/faq#global-settings-lock

So you could disable margin trading just to prevent yourself from accidentally using it, or, using the settings lock, to prevent anyone from using it who gained access to your account. I'll add this idea to the future features list.

 

[donch]

Hi, just working my way through the API for bot purposes.

Was wondering what influenced the decision to use arrays rather than objects for the JSON responses? It is a pain to validate and deserialize arrays with varying types in typed languages such as Go, C++, Java, etc. Also intrigued by the SHA256/SHA512 combo on the POST signing...

It's certainly proving to be one of the more painful exchange API's to work with... Sorry to be negative.

[Roy Badami]

I understand - margin trading is turned off by default for all trades. You have to toggle a button to turn it on, so it'd be pretty hard to do by accident I think. I don't think there's any liability issue involved with a settlement period, but I'll check on this.

I was imagining something like, I accidentally buy 10,000 bitcoins when I intended to buy $10,000 worth of bitcoins.  And I get greeted with a message saying "Trade executed - please deposit $2,000,000 by close of business on 31 October in settlement" :-)

I'm pretty sure in reality something like that could never happen.

Thanks for all the other info.  I've signed up now, and will add a yubikey some time soon.

roy

[Roy Badami]

BTW, any plans to add BACS/FPS support for those of us in the UK?  UK bank accounts don't always offer SEPA - and those that do generally charge fees for it.  I guess that would mean supporting GBP though.

(Sorry if this has already been discussed - this thread is a bit long)

[Dargo]

Hi, just working my way through the API for bot purposes.

Was wondering what influenced the decision to use arrays rather than objects for the JSON responses? It is a pain to validate and deserialize arrays with varying types in typed languages such as Go, C++, Java, etc. Also intrigued by the SHA256/SHA512 combo on the POST signing...

It's certainly proving to be one of the more painful exchange API's to work with... Sorry to be negative.

Arrays are used in the API because they are very efficient resource-wise. Sorry if it's a pain to work with but this way of doing will ultimately allow for heavier loads on our API. If you are sufficiently intrigued by the SHA256/512 combo, let me know and I can find out more about it.

[Dargo]

BTW, any plans to add BACS/FPS support for those of us in the UK?  UK bank accounts don't always offer SEPA - and those that do generally charge fees for it.  I guess that would mean supporting GBP though.

(Sorry if this has already been discussed - this thread is a bit long)

We do want to add GBP support. It's mostly a matter of finding a bank that will do it. But there's also an issue about whether we'd add GBP pairs or not. It'd be cool to have them, but it might fracture the already thin volume, so I think it'd be better if we could add GBP by way of a good GBP/EUR exchange rate, at least initially.

[Loozik]

Dargo,

Did you find time to talk to tradingview and / or bitcoinwisdom about connecting your data to their charts?

[Dargo]

I understand - margin trading is turned off by default for all trades. You have to toggle a button to turn it on, so it'd be pretty hard to do by accident I think. I don't think there's any liability issue involved with a settlement period, but I'll check on this.

I was imagining something like, I accidentally buy 10,000 bitcoins when I intended to buy $10,000 worth of bitcoins.  And I get greeted with a message saying "Trade executed - please deposit $2,000,000 by close of business on 31 October in settlement" :-)

I'm pretty sure in reality something like that could never happen.

Thanks for all the other info.  I've signed up now, and will add a yubikey some time soon.

roy

The system would not allow you to enter a trade that would have you owing us money. And there are protections in place that make it very difficult for traders using margin to get in the position where they owe us money. We don't plan on getting into the collection business. The protections for margin trading come with the margin call level and margin liquidation level, which you can read about here:

https://www.kraken.com/help/trading-guide#understanding-leverage-and-margin

[Dargo]

Dargo,

Did you find time to talk to tradingview and / or bitcoinwisdom about connecting your data to their charts?

Not yet. We'd prefer to wait on this till we have better volume, and I expect these places might want to see better volume too. See next post though.

[Roy Badami]

BTW, any plans to add BACS/FPS support for those of us in the UK?  UK bank accounts don't always offer SEPA - and those that do generally charge fees for it.  I guess that would mean supporting GBP though.

(Sorry if this has already been discussed - this thread is a bit long)

We do want to add GBP support. It's mostly a matter of finding a bank that will do it. But there's also an issue about whether we'd add GBP pairs or not. It'd be cool to have them, but it might fracture the already thin volume, so I think it'd be better if we could add GBP by way of a good GBP/EUR exchange rate, at least initially.

I'm perfectly happy to use GBP (or EUR if I have to) to access whatever the most liquid market is (and if it's USD then so be it).  Have you considered running a single multicurrency orderbook for each digital currency (i.e. like on Gox where any XBT buy order can match against any XBT sell order, regardless of the fiat currencies the orders were placed in).  In this way the less popular fiat currencies still access the same liquidity pool.

roy