Remove the ability to self-moderate within the marketplace

[MiLkz]

**Thread is closed, I will reopen a new thread in Meta, as suggested, using everyone's concerns and suggestions to make a better proposal.


I believe we should remove the option to self-moderate topics within the marketplace.  
Specifically these 2 sections of the marketplace:

• Goods(plus all subsections)
• Currency exchange

Any another section can be included if enough people deem it worthwhile.  

As suggested by others:
Senior, Hero, & Legendary users would keep self-moderation in the decided upon marketplace sections. We may want to extend this to Full Members because of the new merit system. If possible, we could have this benefit disabled if someone's trust is negative, regardless of their user group.

Only users with the rank Member or below would be affected by this change.

Reasons why it is beneficial:
1) Scams are rampant
2) Moderators have taken a stance of not getting involved
3) Threads posted in the scam accusation section go unseen by victims/new users
4) New users are unaware of the trust system

I see absolutely no downside/reason to not remove this option within certain marketplace sections with the above suggested stipulations.  It has no value if you are trying to legitimately buy/sell something.  If spam is unbearable and the moderators are too overloaded to deal with it then self-moderation has value.  

What do you guys think?

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[SFR10]

3) Threads posted in the scam accusation section go unseen

If they use the proper format and provide enough evidence, then surely a DT1/2 member will look into those.

4) New users are unaware of the trust system

It's not just the trust system, most don't bother to read the obvious signs (and as result, get tricked/scammed along the way).

I see absolutely no downside/reason to not remove this option with the marketplace.  It has no value if you are trying to legitimately buy/sell something.

What do you guys think?

If you mean for the whole "Marketplace" then it has other uses (ex. Maintaining threads in regards to useless/spam posts), however I do agree that "some sections" within Marketplace shouldn't allow to have self-moderated topics.

[MiLkz]

If they use the proper format and provide enough evidence, then surely a DT1/2 member will look into those.

I am often hesitant to leave negative feedback because I do not want negative feedback in retaliation.

It's not just the trust system, most don't bother to read the obvious signs (and as result, get tricked/scammed along the way).

I 100% agree, but I still think we should do everything possible to decrease scamming.

If you mean for the whole "Marketplace" then it has other uses (ex. Maintaining threads in regards to useless/spam posts), however I do agree that "some sections" within Marketplace shouldn't allow to have self-moderated topics.

I was thinking only Goods(plus subsections), Services, & Currency exchange

[audaciousbeing]

I believe we should remove the option to self-moderate topics within the marketplace.  Specifically these 3 sections of the marketplace: Goods(plus subsections), Services, & Currency exchange.

1) Scams are rampant
2) Moderators have taken a stance of not getting involved
3) Threads posted in the scam accusation section go unseen
4) New users are unaware of the trust system

I see absolutely no downside/reason to not remove this option with the marketplace.  It has no value if you are trying to legitimately buy/sell something.

What do you guys think?

I think this topic should be moved to meta section of the forum because that where issues affecting the forum is being discussed and also a lot of moderators and senior members visits there which means it gets enough coverage as well as attention of those that can really make the required difference if need be depending on how they see it to be.

I agree that some section should be deactivated for self moderation especially anyone that involves buying and selling in the market place and the exchange section because with that scam can easily be seen by just visiting the thread not by going through extra means of finding if this person has scammed or not. Even by default to me, anyone who self moderate his thread aside from those who have genuine reasons, has something to hide and that is an indication to do more digging before trusting.

[akamit]

I believe we should remove the option to self-moderate topics within the marketplace.  Specifically these 3 sections of the marketplace: Goods(plus subsections), Services, & Currency exchange.

1) Scams are rampant
2) Moderators have taken a stance of not getting involved
3) Threads posted in the scam accusation section go unseen
4) New users are unaware of the trust system

I see absolutely no downside/reason to not remove this option with the marketplace.  It has no value if you are trying to legitimately buy/sell something.

What do you guys think?

I agree that some section should be deactivated for self moderation especially anyone that involves buying and selling in the market place and the exchange section because with that scam can easily be seen by just visiting the thread not by going through extra means of finding if this person has scammed or not. Even by default to me, anyone who self moderate his thread aside from those who have genuine reasons, has something to hide and that is an indication to do more digging before trusting.

@audaciousbeing
Removing self-moderation won't help anyway to prevent scam, scammers are normally very smart. Moreover, the self-moderation system is also used by trusted members.
If someone gets scammed then they can simply give negative trust to help prevent others getting scammed, though it will not be 100% safe.
Because scammers have dozens of accounts which they use to sell products & services with the intention to scam innocent peoples.
The best way someone can use to keep themselves safe is to use escrow for each and every trade.


@MiLkz
1. My opinion above

2. In my opinion, we have very less number of mods if compare with the users we have in this forum, the threads created daily, the posts are made daily.
    So its impossible for mods to go through each & every threads and posts and of course of the activity of tons of users.
    The best way to handle this issue by the well wishers of this forum is to report those threads, posts, and users. I have reported some threads and mods have taken necessary actions so quickly.
    I normally hate those users who sell personal documents and email list and I've already reported those. But the bitter truth is, those scammers always return back.

3. I agree with SFR. DT members are always active there and always tries to solve the issues. But not every issue can be solved by the DT members. As an example "YOBIT" issues.

4. In my opinion, 80% to 90% newbie accounts are made daily are alts of some scammers or negged users. And 10% to 20% is pure new users and they can be recognized easily.

[MiLkz]

@akamit

Trying to prevent scams is the only thing we can do.  A post within a scammers thread stating it is a scam is the first thing people are going to see.  Preventing just one is better than none.  

There is no reason why a trusted member would absolutely need to use self moderation in Goods, Services, or Currency exchange.  It is rare for forums to even have that option.  This is the only forum I am a member of that allows it.

When I said mods made the choice to not get involved in scams/trades, I was just stating a fact.  It is fine if they do not want to or cannot get involved.  The moderators are constantly moving threads around though..haha


Again this is just prevention.  Look at crime in general, we are never going to stop it, all we can do is make it harder for the bad guys.. 

[bill gator]

3) Threads posted in the scam accusation section go unseen

No, they don't. Even when they aren't posted in the proper format they are read carefully and encouraged to write them in a more proper format to be more easily understood. If there is evidence there will be action.

4) New users are unaware of the trust system

New users are encouraged to read every sticky, guideline, unofficial rule and word of caution before engaging in a single post or transaction. We cannot force people to do anything, if they choose to act in an uninformed manner this cannot be our problem. There is no reason for you to be trading here without an understanding of the trust system.

I see absolutely no downside/reason to not remove this option with the marketplace.  It has no value if you are trying to legitimately buy/sell something.

What do you guys think?

I see plenty of downsides. I delete multiple spam-posts every single day from my self-moderated thread in the marketplace. There are plenty of signature spammers, activity farmers and people with personal vendettas that would happily ruin your marketplace thread if they could. Do you not see spam and resentful people running amok with no recourse as a downside or a reason?

I am often hesitant to leave negative feedback because I do not want negative feedback in retaliation.

I still think we should do everything possible to decrease scamming.

I was thinking only Goods(plus subsections), Services, & Currency exchange

I might suggest that being afraid to leave negative feedback to a scammer, because of their retaliation feedback is a personality flaw and not a flaw of the system. The first two lines of this quote contradict one another; you cannot be afraid to leave negative ranking and also genuinely believe that we should do everything possible to decrease scamming. Those two statements do not make sense together and I would ask you to reevaluate your position.

I have a Self-Moderated thread in Services : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2819141.0 , I'd love for you to explain why I don't need self-moderation, even though I think "need" is a bad word for our purposes. We definitely would be better served to say something similarly to "benefit from", because you don't need to use the forum at all, so it's a silly word to use here.

Trying to prevent scams is the only thing we can do.  A post within a scammers thread stating it is a scam is the first thing people are going to see.  Preventing just one is better than none.  

There is no reason why a trusted member would absolutely need to use self moderation in Goods, Services, or Currency exchange.

I disagree with "A post within a scammers thread stating it is a scam is the first thing people are going to see.", I have posted damning evidence of scammers within their own threads many times (written in bold and red) and they go unnoticed. In my experience Trust ratings stick out much more to users than posts buried within their thread. Even if you are the 1st reply to the thread, you will not get read by as many people as the OP it is just that simple.

I disagree that there is no reason for members to use self-moderation, because there are many people that create threads with local-rules or that would easily fill up with endless pages of spam. Would my thread be better off if I allowed the 20+ replies that were only signature spam?

[akamit]

Trying to prevent scams is the only thing we can do.  A post within a scammers thread stating it is a scam is the first thing people are going to see.  Preventing just one is better than none.  

I can understand your point, this can be done with trust ratings if I am not wrong.
But if it is really needed to prevent scams and plays a vital role then self-moderation can only be available from a full or senior member if Theymos agrees with.

There is no reason why a trusted member would absolutely need to use self-moderation in Goods, Services, or Currency exchange.  It is rare for forums to even have that option.  This is the only forum I am a member of that allows it.

I've seen trusted members in service section to use self-moderation and I'm not 100% sure about the other two sections. I feel like I've seen self-moderated threads in those two boards, but can't remember actually.
There could be one main reason is to prevent spam in one's thread.

When I said mods made the choice to not get involved in scams/trades, I was just stating a fact.  It is fine if they do not want to or cannot get involved.  The moderators are constantly moving threads around though..haha

At the beginning of a trade, it is buyers duty to check if the seller is legit or not and most importantly buyers should always use an escrow. That's why the community always encourages for escrow, isn't it?
If someone gets scammed then there is nothing left to do by the mods or DT members except to leave negative trust. So cautious is better than getting f***ed.
Yes, mods move threads to their appropriate section but it is different than to look at potential scams/trades. Once again its buyer duty to check for it.

Again this is just prevention.  Look at crime in general, we are never going to stop it, all we can do is make it harder for the bad guys.. 

I agree 10000000000000000000%

[bill gator]

I've seen trusted members in service section to use self-moderation and I'm not 100% sure about the other two sections. I feel like I've seen self-moderated threads in those two boards, but can't remember actually.
There could be one main reason is to prevent spam in one's thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2259744.0
TheButterZone Self-moderates every single thread I can find of theirs that they have started. They have a lot of people that spam nonsense in their thread, make false-claims, etc. It is simply their freedom that should be allotted to them; just as you should give a shopkeeper control over their domain. If you do not like how they do business, you do not bother every customer that walks in (unless you are looking for confrontation, unfortunate responses and are trying to ruin other people's day), you go an mark-up a formal complaint or get the community to agree they should be removed.

I gave an example of my Service thread being self-moderated, but for the sake of supporting your argument I went and grabbed TBZ post as an example. I hope they don't mind me using them as an example, but they fit the bill of "trusted" and I see no problem with them self-moderating their thread, do you?

Again this is just prevention.  Look at crime in general, we are never going to stop it, all we can do is make it harder for the bad guys..  

Yes, but look at the reason we are never going to stop all of it. It will become self-evident that this is also why we should keep self-moderation the way it currently is. We cannot take away the freedoms and privileges of others, because there are those that abuse the freedoms and there are those uninformed by the dangers of those freedoms. Self-moderation is a net-positive for anybody using it for reasonable purposes and anybody who is abusing it already has means of being dealt with.

[akamit]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2259744.0
TheButterZone Self-moderates every single thread I can find of theirs that they have started. They have a lot of people that spam nonsense in their thread, make false-claims, etc. It is simply their freedom that should be allotted to them; just as you should give a shopkeeper control over their domain. If you do not like how they do business, you do not bother every customer that walks in (unless you are looking for confrontation, unfortunate responses and are trying to ruin other people's day), you go an mark-up a formal complaint or get the community to agree they should be removed.

I gave an example of my Service thread being self-moderated, but for the sake of supporting your argument I went and grabbed TBZ post as an example. I hope they don't mind me using them as an example, but they fit the bill of "trusted" and I see no problem with them self-moderating their thread, do you?

Thanks Bill for reminding me of TBZ's thread as self-moderated. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen somewhere but forget about it.
Of course, Butter Zone will not mind about it. And of course, Butter Zone is one of the trusted members of our community.

Self-moderation is needed, now I remember a case of mine.
Once I offered a traffic selling service. Then someone posted that I'm reselling from fiverr or seoclerk, which was a pure SALES TRASHING.
But it was completely untrue because I was offering from my own source. But after that sales trash, I closed the thread immediately.
I closed it because I thought people will not believe me anymore when they will see that sales trash post, even no matter what I do to make them believe.

[MiLkz]

No, they don't. Even when they aren't posted in the proper format they are read carefully and encouraged to write them in a more proper format to be more easily understood. If there is evidence there will be action.

The only actions that are available is to give negative trust and maybe release some personal information, which is great.  The scam accusation area is 110% needed, I was just trying to suggest another prevention method.

New users are encouraged to read every sticky, guideline, unofficial rule and word of caution before engaging in a single post or transaction. We cannot force people to do anything, if they choose to act in an uninformed manner this cannot be our problem. There is no reason for you to be trading here without an understanding of the trust system.

Yep I agree, you cannot fix stupidity, but even the less knowledgeable do not deserve to be scammed.

I see plenty of downsides. I delete multiple spam-posts every single day from my self-moderated thread in the marketplace. There are plenty of signature spammers, activity farmers and people with personal vendettas that would happily ruin your marketplace thread if they could. Do you not see spam and resentful people running amok with no recourse as a downside or a reason?

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I have a Self-Moderated thread in Services : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2819141.0 , I'd love for you to explain why I don't need self-moderation, even though I think "need" is a bad word for our purposes. We definitely would be better served to say something similarly to "benefit from", because you don't need to use the forum at all, so it's a silly word to use here.

-----

I disagree that there is no reason for members to use self-moderation, because there are many people that create threads with local-rules or that would easily fill up with endless pages of spam. Would my thread be better off if I allowed the 20+ replies that were only signature spam?

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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2259744.0
TheButterZone Self-moderates every single thread I can find of theirs that they have started. They have a lot of people that spam nonsense in their thread, make false-claims, etc. It is simply their freedom that should be allotted to them; just as you should give a shopkeeper control over their domain. If you do not like how they do business, you do not bother every customer that walks in (unless you are looking for confrontation, unfortunate responses and are trying to ruin other people's day), you go an mark-up a formal complaint or get the community to agree they should be removed.

I gave an example of my Service thread being self-moderated, but for the sake of supporting your argument I went and grabbed TBZ post as an example. I hope they don't mind me using them as an example, but they fit the bill of "trusted" and I see no problem with them self-moderating their thread, do you?

You guys certainly are not scammers, but you are the minority.

If we cannot post without being overrun with shit posts, spam, sales trashing, personal vendettas, etc. then we need something around here to change.  I of course see your side.  I see how it can be advantageous to self-mod, however, removing the things stated previously is left up to mods in every other forum on the internet.  We have a report button on each post for a reason?

I might suggest that being afraid to leave negative feedback to a scammer, because of their retaliation feedback is a personality flaw and not a flaw of the system. The first two lines of this quote contradict one another; you cannot be afraid to leave negative ranking and also genuinely believe that we should do everything possible to decrease scamming. Those two statements do not make sense together and I would ask you to reevaluate your position.

I though mods did not get involved with removing trust, so I never wanted to risk my account being red/yellow. If it is an easy and painless process to remove fake trust, then I apologize for my ignorance.

I once caught a scammer/account buyer, left negative after posting in scam accusation, and then received negative from not only him but his "friends".  I had to completely give in to their demands and remove my negative trust, just to be green again.  They were shortly after caught scamming and just left probably never to be seen again.

I disagree with "A post within a scammers thread stating it is a scam is the first thing people are going to see.", I have posted damning evidence of scammers within their own threads many times (written in bold and red) and they go unnoticed. In my experience Trust ratings stick out much more to users than posts buried within their thread. Even if you are the 1st reply to the thread, you will not get read by as many people as the OP it is just that simple.

Multiple warnings can not hurt.

[bill gator]

The only actions that are available is to give negative trust and maybe release some personal information, which is great.  The scam accusation area is 110% needed, I was just trying to suggest another prevention method.

Yep I agree, you cannot fix stupidity, but even the less knowledgeable do not deserve to be scammed.


You guys certainly are not scammers, but you are the minority.

I see how it can be advantageous to self-mod, however, removing the things stated previously is left up to mods in every other forum on the internet.  We have a report button on each post for a reason?

I though mods did not get involved with removing trust, so I never wanted to risk my account being red/yellow. If it is an easy and painless process to remove fake trust, then I apologize for my ignorance.

I once caught a scammer/account buyer, left negative after posting in scam accusation, and then received negative from not only him but his "friends".  I had to completely give in to their demands and remove my negative trust, just to be green again.  They were shortly after caught scamming and just left probably never to be seen again.

I would not say releasing personal information is great, but to each their own I suppose, you're entitled to your opinion. It should be the case that negative trusts, with reference links providing evidence is enough to deter anyone from dealing with someone. The less knowledgeable do not deserve to be scammed, I agree, but you must impose a tyranny in order to avoid it. The best way to avoid them being scammed is through education.

I would be open to the idea of only allowing members of a certain rank or merit having the ability to self-moderate. Although it would seem the have the same detriments I have already pointed out, the lower ranking members are those that are primarily abusing the self-moderation in the manner you point out. I would say that we may be in the minority of self-moderators that do not operate in a sketchy manner overall, but I would say that of higher ranking members this is pretty regular behavior; most high ranking members that utilize self-moderation are not the troublemakers. I'm talking general demographics here, not hard and fast rules, but my point remains.

The report button will not get the job done as well as self-moderation, and mods may not agree that it should be removed, so that leaves me to feel that the best place to distribute that power is to the thread-creator.

I really don't care what other forums do, at all, because that is not a justification for anything.

It doesn't sound like you understand the trust system and I would highly encourage you to read more thoroughly about the small details and mechanics of it. Your account cannot become "red/yellow" from any regular user on the forum, they can leave ratings, but they are not shown by default and therefore the rest of the forum sees you as neutral. You can only become "red/yellow" from those on your trust list, which by default are DT1/2 members. Unless you are describing a high-ranking DT member extortion ring, then I believe you are badly mistaken. If this were not the case, anybody could make mass amounts of accounts and abuse the system to oblivion. Never give into these kinds of "demands", because again I would count this as a personality flaw, not a flaw of the system. It makes you seem uninformed and weak. Document the evidence, report it and these members will receive their due; when you give in like this it only enables them to do more harm as you seem to have acknowledged.

[MiLkz]

I would not say releasing personal information is great, but to each their own I suppose, you're entitled to your opinion. It should be the case that negative trusts, with reference links providing evidence is enough to deter anyone from dealing with someone. The less knowledgeable do not deserve to be scammed, I agree, but you must impose a tyranny in order to avoid it. The best way to avoid them being scammed is through education.

I would be open to the idea of only allowing members of a certain rank or merit having the ability to self-moderate. Although it would seem the have the same detriments I have already pointed out, the lower ranking members are those that are primarily abusing the self-moderation in the manner you point out. I would say that we may be in the minority of self-moderators that do not operate in a sketchy manner overall, but I would say that of higher ranking members this is pretty regular behavior; most high ranking members that utilize self-moderation are not the troublemakers. I'm talking general demographics here, not hard and fast rules, but my point remains.

The report button will not get the job done as well as self-moderation, and mods may not agree that it should be removed, so that leaves me to feel that the best place to distribute that power is to the thread-creator.

I really don't care what other forums do, at all, because that is not a justification for anything.

It doesn't sound like you understand the trust system and I would highly encourage you to read more thoroughly about the small details and mechanics of it. Your account cannot become "red/yellow" from any regular user on the forum, they can leave ratings, but they are not shown by default and therefore the rest of the forum sees you as neutral. You can only become "red/yellow" from those on your trust list, which by default are DT1/2 members. Unless you are describing a high-ranking DT member extortion ring, then I believe you are badly mistaken. If this were not the case, anybody could make mass amounts of accounts and abuse the system to oblivion. Never give into these kinds of "demands", because again I would count this as a personality flaw, not a flaw of the system. It makes you seem uninformed and weak. Document the evidence, report it and these members will receive their due; when you give in like this it only enables them to do more harm as you seem to have acknowledged.

If we cannot post a sale/buy thread without being overrun with sales trashing and personal vendettas then there is either something wrong with us or something inherently wrong with the forum.  I have had an ongoing sale thread since 2016 and have not experienced any major issue besides some spam/shit posts which are just free bumps.  Spam is to be expected, this is the internet for god's sakes..

When you seek to improve something, in this case a forum, you look at other examples and build off of them.

As for the trust system, I understand that when 2-3 green Sr./Hero members left me negative rep my trust went to yellow/red.  It didn't matter that their accounts were purchased and would soon be negative. I would have to deal with it in my trusted feedback until other DT trust members gave them negative and I would forever have red negatives in my untrusted.  

I do not think we will ever see eye to eye here.

[bill gator]

I have had an ongoing sale thread since 2016 and have not experienced any major issue besides some spam/shit posts which are just free bumps.  Spam is to be expected, this is the internet for god's sakes..

You haven't experienced any issues, besides the one issue that self-moderation would help you eliminate. That sounds like you should start using the self-moderation to your benefit, instead of complaining about it. Spam is to be expected, which is why we have self-moderation to deal with it. I don't want/need "Free Bumps", I want a clean thread that stays on topic and is free of nonsense.

When you seek to improve something, in this case a forum, you look at other examples and build off of them.

As for the trust system, I understand that when 2-3 green Sr./Hero members left me negative rep my trust went to yellow/red.  It didn't matter that their accounts were purchased and would soon be negative. I would have to deal with it until other DT trust members gave them negative and I would forever have red negatives on my account.

I do not think we will ever see eye to eye here.

You do not look to flawed examples when seeking to improve yourself. You do not look to options with less to lose, with less need for security, with less members or with different technologies that are not feasible. Self-moderation should be eliminated so that we can turn this into a terrible spam-ridden forum like the other forums you hangout on, good plan.

Also, when you seek to improve something you look at that something yesterday and try to make it better today. You compare it to itself and seek to better it in that regard, not in comparison to something else that has too many variables to be fairly compared.

You're just wrong and I don't know why you are digging your heels in. It just looks naive, when you can easily go use the search function and figure out how wrong you really are. It's not about seeing eye to eye, it's about right and wrong. Feel free to stick to your incorrect thinking and your pathetic approach of bowing down to scammers and extortionists, to me this kind of thinking is a significant problem. You understand the trust system incorrectly, and I don't feel like explaining myself a second time. Having negatives on your account from known scammers should be a badge of honor, and it has no negative effects whatsoever on your trust rating, unless they are DT members; the people you dealt with were not DT members, and if they were you could get them removed for the situation you are describing.

If you are unwilling to see eye to eye on this, it is because you are being stubborn, logically flawed and operating with cognitive dissonance.

Your trust is: 20: -0 / +2

Michail1 and TheButterZone are the only DT members that have given you trust and are the only people affecting the trust rating people see publicly (unless they have changed their trust settings, most don't).

Everyone else's ratings do not affect whether you are green, red or yellow; I hope this helps you understand.

[MiLkz]

You haven't experienced any issues, besides the one issue that self-moderation would help you eliminate. That sounds like you should start using the self-moderation to your benefit, instead of complaining about it. Spam is to be expected, which is why we have self-moderation to deal with it. I don't want/need "Free Bumps", I want a clean thread that stays on topic and is free of nonsense.

You do not look to flawed examples when seeking to improve yourself. You do not look to options with less to lose, with less need for security, with less members or with different technologies that are not feasible. Self-moderation should be eliminated so that we can turn this into a terrible spam-ridden forum like the other forums you hangout on, good plan.

Also, when you seek to improve something you look at that something yesterday and try to make it better today. You compare it to itself and seek to better it in that regard, not in comparison to something else that has too many variables to be fairly compared.

You're just wrong and I don't know why you are digging your heels in. It just looks naive, when you can easily go use the search function and figure out how wrong you really are. It's not about seeing eye to eye, it's about right and wrong. Feel free to stick to your incorrect thinking and your pathetic approach of bowing down to scammers and extortionists, to me this kind of thinking is a significant problem. You understand the trust system incorrectly, and I don't feel like explaining myself a second time. Having negatives on your account from known scammers should be a badge of honor, and it has no negative effects whatsoever on your trust rating, unless they are DT members; the people you dealt with were not DT members, and if they were you could get them removed for the situation you are describing.

If you are unwilling to see eye to eye on this, it is because you are being stubborn, logically flawed and operating with cognitive dissonance.

Your trust is: 20: -0 / +2

Michail1 and TheButterZone are the only DT members that have given you trust and are the only people affecting the trust rating people see publicly (unless they have changed their trust settings, most don't).

Everyone else's ratings do not affect whether you are green, red or yellow; I hope this helps you understand.

When you seek to improve something you look at ALL examples, even if they are flawed and/or different. Nothing is black and white. Apparently you are perfect and do not believe in learning from mistakes.  ..blinders to anything that you feel is not on your level..

This forum is already spam ridden and has thousands and thousands of alts.  You can thank signature campaigns?, or maybe the buying/selling of accounts?..who knows..problems for another thread..

I don't even know what you are claiming I am wrong about..lol?  I made a thread in scam accusations about certain individuals and they eventually got their just desserts.  Why did I have to have my account go red(showing negatives in my trusted feedback) and possibly affect a sale while some fraudster DT users were being dealt with?  Just because you think negative feedback from a scammer is a badge of honor doesn't mean I do.

Did I say anything about my trust being affected currently? no..

I currently see my trust as: 110: -0 / +13, everyone has different settings

I hope this helps you understand -.-

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Anyway..

You have one thread that you self mod and that was just created a few days ago. For some reason you are defending something tooth and nail that you have used for like half a month.  I am active in the goods section and see multiple scammers every single day taking advantage of the self moderation.  If you feel that you need it so badly, fine, you have made your point clear.  Thanks for your thoughts..

[bill gator]

When you seek to improve something you look at ALL examples, even if they are flawed and/or different. Nothing is black and white. Apparently you are perfect and do not believe in learning from mistakes.  ..blinders to anything that you feel is not on your level..

I'm making the point that when you're asking "Why can't we have that? The other forum has it." you are making a silly argument, because that is no reason to assume it is a good idea. It is an argument that holds no weight, it's the cliche "If your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?"

Nobody said they are perfect, so I don't know why you are putting words in my mouth and having a fit. You obviously must learn from mistakes; self-moderation is not a mistake and serves a very necessary purpose you seem to be flippant about.

This forum is already spam ridden and has thousands and thousands of alts

Exactly, there is no reason to make this problem worse and give regular users no tools to fight against this in their own threads. Everyone has a right to defend themselves in their own home.

I don't even know what you are claiming I am wrong about..lol?

I am claiming you are wrong about a few things; removing self-moderation, how to deal with scammers, spammers, extortionists and what most user's see as reasonable trust settings.

Just because you think negative feedback from a scammer is a badge of honor doesn't mean I do.

This is an example of one of the things I am claiming you are wrong about; you bend the knee to someone threatening you with red-trust, simply because you are afraid of red-trust from someone that you should have settings on to ignore.

I currently see my trust as: 110: -0 / +13, everyone has different settings
I hope this helps you understand -.-

The only thing this helps me understand is that you have set your trust settings to a point where you do not see it the same way as anybody else. You have your settings exactly calibrated for abuse in the most blatant way possible (that I described earlier). If you are giving everyone's rating equal weight and you are terrified of a red-mark then you are trapping yourself in a corner with anybody that has malicious intent. You are creating a scenario where you can only be the victim of the trust system. Change your settings, stop being so squeamish about red-marks from irrelevant scammers, or understand that you are asking for this kind of scenario to repeat itself.

Everyone does not have different settings, most people, almost all people leave it to the default (for good reason).

You have one thread that you self mod and that was just created a few days ago. I am active in the goods section and see multiple scammers every single day taking advantage of the self moderation.  

You say that I think I am perfect and then get on your pedestal about your long-standing tradition in the goods section as if it matters. This does not make your argument anymore valid and this does not refute anything I have said. I have not heard a good argument for why self-moderation should be removed. Nor have you contended with you idea that maybe we restrict self-moderation to higher ranking members, which I thought to be a fair compromise with your idea.

[MiLkz]

I'm making the point that when you're asking "Why can't we have that? The other forum has it." you are making a silly argument, because that is no reason to assume it is a good idea. It is an argument that holds no weight, it's the cliche "If your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?"

Nobody said they are perfect, so I don't know why you are putting words in my mouth and having a fit. You obviously must learn from mistakes; self-moderation is not a mistake and serves a very necessary purpose you seem to be flippant about.

Please don't put words in my mouth...lol   flippant is right..

Exactly, there is no reason to make this problem worse and give regular users no tools to fight against this in their own threads. Everyone has a right to defend themselves in their own home.

I proposed removing self-mods in 3 sections of the marketplace.  Maybe a handful of people are using self mods and actually need them.    We could even remove services from that list and still tackle where the 98% of scammers roam.

I am claiming you are wrong about a few things; removing self-moderation, how to deal with scammers, spammers, extortionists and what most user's see as reasonable trust settings.

I think you are wrong too..  

This is an example of one of the things I am claiming you are wrong about; you bend the knee to someone threatening you with red-trust, simply because you are afraid of red-trust from someone that you should have settings on to ignore.

Bend the knee and join me, or refuse, and die  

Not going to explain this for the 3rd time..lol

The only thing this helps me understand is that you have set your trust settings to a point where you do not see it the same way as anybody else. You have your settings exactly calibrated for abuse in the most blatant way possible (that I described earlier). If you are giving everyone's rating equal weight and you are terrified of a red-mark then you are trapping yourself in a corner with anybody that has malicious intent. You are creating a scenario where you can only be the victim of the trust system. Change your settings, stop being so squeamish about red-marks from irrelevant scammers, or understand that you are asking for this kind of scenario to repeat itself.

Everyone does not have different settings, most people, almost all people leave it to the default (for good reason).

I am a goof ball  

You say that I think I am perfect and then get on your pedestal about your long-standing tradition in the goods section as if it matters. This does not make your argument anymore valid and this does not refute anything I have said. I have not heard a good argument for why self-moderation should be removed. Nor have you contended with you idea that maybe we restrict self-moderation to higher ranking members, which I thought to be a fair compromise with your idea.

I buy and sell a lot more than you.  I see a lot more scamming than you.  These are facts I have noticed on my high pedestal.

This was never meant to be an argument, but I just really do not like you. There was never meant to be compromises, but yes having Hero members(maybe Sr.) and above excluded from this rule is a good suggestion.

[ralle14]

I think this topic should be moved to meta section of the forum because that where issues affecting the forum is being discussed and also a lot of moderators and senior members visits there which means it gets enough coverage as well as attention of those that can really make the required difference if need be depending on how they see it to be.

Thread reported. Hoping this would be moved to meta and for other members to see because not everyone browse the marketplace. I want to hear what would others say about this suggestion.

I believe we should remove the option to self-moderate topics within the marketplace.  Specifically these 3 sections of the marketplace: Goods(plus subsections), Services, & Currency exchange.

1) Scams are rampant
2) Moderators have taken a stance of not getting involved
3) Threads posted in the scam accusation section go unseen
4) New users are unaware of the trust system

I see absolutely no downside/reason to not remove this option with the marketplace.  It has no value if you are trying to legitimately buy/sell something.

What do you guys think?

If threads posted in the scam accusation go unseen and people want to grab the attention of DT members sending them a pm would be the best way. I slightly agree with the suggestion to disable self moderation on some of the boards in the marketplace to fight against scammers. Another way I think that would make it harder is when users have a trust score below 0 they lose the option to make a self moderated thread.

[bill gator]

Maybe a handful of people are using self mods and actually need them.    We could even remove services from that list and still tackle where the 98% of scammers roam.

Not "Maybe" and not a "handful". It is definitely a very significant amount of users that are using self-mods for a good purpose. I've already explained why the word "need" is unfitting for our purposes, yet you continue to use it without an explanation. 98% of scammers do not come from and operate within Goods & Currency Exchange exclusively so the plan is flawed even after a "compromise".

I am claiming you are wrong about a few things; removing self-moderation, how to deal with scammers, spammers, extortionists and what most user's see as reasonable trust settings.

I think you are wrong too..  
Bend the knee and join me, or refuse, and die  
Not going to explain this for the 3rd time..lol

Hilarious; encouraging me to let scammers do whatever they want. I can't believe you honestly see this as a joke, while trying to make a forum altering suggestion. You are a joke at this point, and please do not explain your situation again, because it makes you look pathetic. Hiding from someone that has scammed you and not even giving them a trust rating only allows them to scam someone else, so good job.

The difference between me thinking you are wrong and you thinking I am wrong is that I am actually trying to give some evidence and logic to justify my claim, while you are using smiley's, insults, feelings and lies. You are acting pedantic beyond what is tolerable.

Everyone does not have different settings, most people, almost all people leave it to the default (for good reason).

I am a goof ball  

Very cute, the prevalence of your emoticon usage is telling me enough, you do not take this forum seriously, you don't care about anybody else's experience and you are not interested in having a serious conversation about what you have suggested. Feel free to have a downward spiral of a conversation with somebody else at this point, because you're just trying to devolve this into nonsense and ad-hominems.

I buy and sell a lot more than you.  I see a lot more scamming than you.  These are facts I have noticed on my high pedestal.

Careful you don't fall off that pedestal, you might get a taste of reality. You do not see more scamming than me. You are, again, talking out of your ass. You have no idea what I see and pretending like you do just shows another arrogant personality flaw of yours that shouldn't be involved in the conversation. These are not facts, these are your feelings, which are irreverent and incorrect.

It's very strange that you see more scams, yet have not started a scam accusation thread in the past year and have not given a negative trust rating ever. The one scam accusation you created a year ago, wasn't even about anyone being scammed, it was saying that someone avoided your question and then gave you a negative feedback. This tells me you are either lying about seeing more scams, or you are simply doing nothing about it, which is worse in my opinion. From where I'm standing, you are claiming to be a great scam-buster and at the same time talking about giving into them, pick one.

This was never meant to be an argument, but I just really do not like you. There was never meant to be compromises, but yes having Hero members(maybe Sr.) and above excluded from this rule is a good suggestion.

Discussions != arguments. If you weren't open to suggestions, comments or compromises then I have no clue why you opened a thread. You're just declaring changes that must be made without amendment, but that isn't how things work around here. Normally people talk about the flaws in their opinions/ideas and work to make them better. If you are unwilling to do this, which you clearly are, then you shouldn't have even bothered making a suggestion. We aren't all going to think your bad idea is good.

You've edited OP to remove Services from your proposal and include my suggestion about Sr.+ exclusion from this revocation of self-moderation. I don't understand why you have to also add your subjective emotion as if it is relevant or persuasive. We are discussing what is beneficial or detrimental to the health of the forum and can do so even if you do not like me. I am indifferent to you, but I do not like your idea for the aforementioned reasons.

I see absolutely no downside/reason to not remove this option within certain marketplace sections.  It has no value if you are trying to legitimately buy/sell something.

Still waiting for an edit on this; because we've clearly discussed the downsides and reasons not to remove it. We have also discussed the value when trying to legitimately buy/sell or offer something. These two statements have been debunked already, as have half of your other listed premises. In case you're wondering which half, I meant these:

3) Threads posted in the scam accusation section go unseen
4) New users are unaware of the trust system

Both wrong, or at the least flawed as we've concluded in this very thread.

Another way I think that would make it harder is when users have a trust score below 0 they lose the option to make a self moderated thread.

OP will most likely disagree with you, because of their trust-settings. I'm going to assume you mean a trust score below 0, as determined by DT1/2 members, or do you think newbies/scammers should be able to affect your trust score like OP? I would agree, if a DT1/2 member negatively rates you, then that may be a good criteria for whether or not you can use self-moderation.

[MiLkz]

Not "Maybe" and not a "handful". It is definitely a very significant amount of users that are using self-mods for a good purpose. I've already explained why the word "need" is unfitting for our purposes, yet you continue to use it without an explanation. 98% of scammers do not come from and operate within Goods & Currency Exchange exclusively so the plan is flawed even after a "compromise".

Since you have so much time on your hands, I will give you a few tasks: 1) go find the significant amount of users that are using self-mods in those sections, 2) Write a 5 page paper, double spaced, with an explanation on why "need" is unfitting for our purposes(APA or MLA, whichever is preferred)

Where do the majority of scammers operate if not within the marketplace?

Hilarious; encouraging me to let scammers do whatever they want. I can't believe you honestly see this as a joke, while trying to make a forum altering suggestion. You are a joke at this point, and please do not explain your situation again, because it makes you look pathetic. Hiding from someone that has scammed you and not even giving them a trust rating only allows them to scam someone else, so good job.

The difference between me thinking you are wrong and you thinking I am wrong is that I am actually trying to give some evidence and logic to justify my claim, while you are using smiley's, insults, feelings and lies. You are acting pedantic beyond what is tolerable.

If you haven't noticed, I already believe you are a joke.  I am afraid your epeen will not get any bigger here in this thread.  If only I made this thread self-modded..am I right? ..haha

Very cute, the prevalence of your emoticon usage is telling me enough, you do not take this forum seriously, you don't care about anybody else's experience and you are not interested in having a serious conversation about what you have suggested. Feel free to have a downward spiral of a conversation with somebody else at this point, because you're just trying to devolve this into nonsense and ad-hominems.

Awesome, I will expect you to stand behind that last bit.  

Careful you don't fall off that pedestal, you might get a taste of reality. You do not see more scamming than me. You are, again, talking out of your ass. You have no idea what I see and pretending like you do just shows another arrogant personality flaw of yours that shouldn't be involved in the conversation. These are not facts, these are your feelings, which are irreverent and incorrect.

It's very strange that you see more scams, yet have not started a scam accusation thread in the past year and have not given a negative trust rating ever. The one scam accusation you created a year ago, wasn't even about anyone being scammed, it was saying that someone avoided your question and then gave you a negative feedback. This tells me you are either lying about seeing more scams, or you are simply doing nothing about it, which is worse in my opinion. From where I'm standing, you are claiming to be a great scam-buster and at the same time talking about giving into them, pick one.

Discussions != arguments. If you weren't open to suggestions, comments or compromises then I have no clue why you opened a thread. You're just declaring changes that must be made without amendment, but that isn't how things work around here. Normally people talk about the flaws in their opinions/ideas and work to make them better. If you are unwilling to do this, which you clearly are, then you shouldn't have even bothered making a suggestion. We aren't all going to think your bad idea is good.

You've edited OP to remove Services from your proposal and include my suggestion about Sr.+ exclusion from this revocation of self-moderation. I don't understand why you have to also add your subjective emotion as if it is relevant or persuasive. We are discussing what is beneficial or detrimental to the health of the forum and can do so even if you do not like me. I am indifferent to you, but I do not like your idea for the aforementioned reasons.

Still waiting for an edit on this; because we've clearly discussed the downsides and reasons not to remove it. We have also discussed the value when trying to legitimately buy/sell or offer something. These two statements have been debunked already, as have half of your other listed premises. In case you're wondering which half, I meant these:

3) Threads posted in the scam accusation section go unseen
4) New users are unaware of the trust system

Both wrong, or at the least flawed as we've concluded in this very thread.

You have a large epeen.  You are superior to all.  Will not be wasting anymore time with you.  

As I said posts ago..  You made your points/arguments clear already and offered a suggestion.  Both have already beed noted in this thread and acknowledged.