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Author Topic: Bitcoin's immunity to government action  (Read 13451 times)
Sjalq
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January 21, 2011, 11:18:02 PM
 #1

I made this point in another thread but through it needed it's own thread.

Bitcoins will ultimately prevail against government action. Reason being that it is nearly impossible that ALL governments will attempt to make Bitcoin illegal. It is also unlikely that all governments that attempt to do this will be successful.

Considering that Bitcoin is (at least in my opinion) a far superior form of payment in most aspects to current currency product offerings, it is very likely that Bitcoin will succeed in many of the jurisdictions that allow it. In the process the price of a bitcoin would skyrocket, even if only 1% of a relatively small economy's money supply was in Bitcoin. This would further cement the success of Bitcoins.

Once Bitcoins are in use in a few jurisdictions, these jurisdictions can now effect low cost trade with one another and have given their citizens access to a relatively stable currency. Access to a stable currency will greatly benefit the economies Bitcoin is used in.

These factors combined will put pressure on other jurisdictions to accept Bitcoin as payment and eventually decriminalize it.

Owning gold was once illegal in the US and Russia, today, despite posing a greater risk to the funding mechanism of governments, gold ownership is legal again. Remember, taxes predate fiat currency. Fiat currency is a nice to have for a state, not a must have.

Cheesy mine mine mine mine mine mine mine Cheesy
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S3052
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January 22, 2011, 06:19:19 PM
 #2

That is an interesting viewpoint, and actually quite possible.

To start this, one would need to find one jurisdiction that would be the "low hanging fruit" - one that is most ready to accept bitcoins as national currency.

who could this be?

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January 22, 2011, 06:45:33 PM
 #3

To start this, one would need to find one jurisdiction that would be the "low hanging fruit" - one that is most ready to accept bitcoins as national currency.

who could this be?

I don't know, but, if the US government ever decide to attack bitcoins as strong as sometimes people here imagine it might, like trying to forbid it completly and throwing TERRORIST!!!-like accusation towards bitcoin users, you bet that there are a few anti-american governments out there who would really consider embracing the technology. Wink

Pretty much like the Brazilian government offering protection to Julian Assange.... hehe, had wikileaks published dirty secrets of the Brazilian scum, things would be quite different. Cheesy
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January 22, 2011, 08:46:07 PM
 #4

one jurisdiction that would be ... most ready to accept bitcoins as national currency.

who could this be?
Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?
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January 22, 2011, 08:54:01 PM
 #5

Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?

"Bitcoin, the New Zimbabwe Dollar" would be TERRIBLE marketing.  How about a nice, respectable country that is just tired of using somebody else's currency?  If the value of the dollar keeps falling, there may be a lot of those in the next 20 years.

How often do you get the chance to work on a potentially world-changing project?
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January 22, 2011, 10:03:20 PM
 #6

Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?

"Bitcoin, the New Zimbabwe Dollar" would be TERRIBLE marketing.  How about a nice, respectable country that is just tired of using somebody else's currency?  If the value of the dollar keeps falling, there may be a lot of those in the next 20 years.


Let's get going. Anyone from Zimbabwe here?
Anyone having some contacts?

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January 22, 2011, 10:10:06 PM
 #7

Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?

"Bitcoin, the New Zimbabwe Dollar" would be TERRIBLE marketing.  How about a nice, respectable country that is just tired of using somebody else's currency?  If the value of the dollar keeps falling, there may be a lot of those in the next 20 years.


I contest that the US FRN is actually falling in value.  That would depend on how one looks at it, but every way that one can look at it is relative. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 22, 2011, 10:12:21 PM
 #8

Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?

"Bitcoin, the New Zimbabwe Dollar" would be TERRIBLE marketing.  How about a nice, respectable country that is just tired of using somebody else's currency?  If the value of the dollar keeps falling, there may be a lot of those in the next 20 years.


I contest that the US FRN is actually falling in value.  That would depend on how one looks at it, but every way that one can look at it is relative. 

More seriously, I'd prefer Ireland  :-)

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January 22, 2011, 10:13:43 PM
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I don't know, but, if the US government ever decide to attack bitcoins as strong as sometimes people here imagine it might, like trying to forbid it completly and throwing TERRORIST!!!-like accusation towards bitcoin users, you bet that there are a few anti-american governments out there who would really consider embracing the technology. Wink

P

It might happen this way, but I would doubt it.  If the world could reject the US FRN as the international currency without great harm to their own economies, I suspect that they would already do so.  The result of so much cash returning to the US would result in massive inflation, but would also harm most other nations as well.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 23, 2011, 12:09:57 AM
 #10

Maybe sell wheelbarrows for bitcoins for carrying all that useless fiat to the shops to get a loaf of bread.


 Cheesy
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January 23, 2011, 02:50:19 AM
 #11

Zimbabwe? Brazil?

Do these countries have readily available internet service providers for cheap? I know that in Indonesia broadband is a bit a luxory. Most people go to internet cafes for high-speed broadband. At home, they use dial-up if its absolutly nessecary.

I can't see how countries like that would ever adopt BitCoin, when the main blindingly obvious drawback is that internet is not so freely available!

Maybe we should find a lovely island and just settle there, create the first country with BitCoin as its currency!

Or just keep it as it is, BitCoin - the stateless currency.

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I then use the money to buy BitCoins. You can too!
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January 23, 2011, 04:22:59 AM
 #12

Zimbabwe? Brazil?

Do these countries have readily available internet service providers for cheap? I know that in Indonesia broadband is a bit a luxory. Most people go to internet cafes for high-speed broadband. At home, they use dial-up if its absolutly nessecary.

I can't see how countries like that would ever adopt BitCoin, when the main blindingly obvious drawback is that internet is not so freely available!

Maybe we should find a lovely island and just settle there, create the first country with BitCoin as its currency!

Or just keep it as it is, BitCoin - the stateless currency.

You only need the internet for a transaction, I'm sure a lot of stores in these areas have it or can get it for less than they pay in CC fees. For spending online dial-up is no problem, even if you don't want to use an online wallet, you don't need the blockchain in order to send a tx.

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January 23, 2011, 12:39:33 PM
 #13

Zimbabwe? Brazil?

Do these countries have readily available internet service providers for cheap?

Brazil has the 5th largest internet population. http://www.internetworldstats.com/top20.htm (well, it's the 5th largest world population anyway, if Pakistan haven't yet passed, so it's just average...)
It might not be cheap, but it's perfectly possible to run bitcoin.

Maybe we should find a lovely island and just settle there, create the first country with BitCoin as its currency!

I hope it happens: http://seasteading.org/
Smiley
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January 23, 2011, 02:22:10 PM
 #14

The government can just buy all available coins (because their money can be printed and there is a lag of price rise).

Just now I need to collect 1500 coins to pay for some work for me.
It is difficult to do because the supply is about 100 coins per day in RUB/BTC market.

If I wish to pay salary in bitcoins - it is impossible (and will be impossible) to collect that amount of bitcoins.
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January 23, 2011, 02:33:45 PM
 #15

The government can just buy all available coins (because their money can be printed and there is a lag of price rise).

There is not a lag of price rise.  

Apples for sale
---------------
9 pieces silver
8 pieces silver
3 pieces silver
2 pieces silver

The rate you get in the market is 2 silver. The absolute very same instant you buy that apple the new price available in the market is 3 pieces of silver. There is no lag. It is important to remember that the market price is simply what offer is accepted it doesn't have to be updated by a score keeper.

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January 23, 2011, 02:36:46 PM
 #16

The government can just buy all available coins...

An infinite number of digital currencies can be created, and the government can't buy them all. I don't think the government will want to create a new business model:

1. Create a digital currency
2. Get some people to start using it
3. The government buys all the coins
4. Profit!
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January 23, 2011, 02:42:37 PM
 #17

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

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January 23, 2011, 02:48:44 PM
 #18


If I wish to pay salary in bitcoins - it is impossible (and will be impossible) to collect that amount of bitcoins.


As someone buys up coins the price required to buy the next few rises. If someone buys a lot the price will be very high, and then you will not need to get many coins to pay a salary. If the gov has bought all but 5 coins maybe the salary will be .000001/week.

The main thing that might help you understand is that money-printers buy up things they want to support, not things they hate. They buy government bonds because government gives them a monopoly on money, they buy mortgage securities because their banker friends have bought too many, they buy titanium toilets to install in tanks because they have dinner and sex parties with people from Haliburton. They are not going to do us the favor of increasing the value of bitcoins and killing their golden goose the dollar even earlier.

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January 23, 2011, 05:07:28 PM
 #19

How about Iceland?
A nice small country absolutely fed up with the banksters actions, trying to be forced into this dreadful Euro.

Internet Usage Statistics:
301,600 Internet users as of June/10, 97.6% of the population, according to the ITU.

Gross Domestic Product:
GDP per capita is US$ 46,320 ('06) according to World Bank.


"
Trade minister: Iceland must choose between euro and currency controls

Posted on27 December 2010. Tags: currency, economy, EU, euro, Iceland, krona, Politics

The Icelandic nation faces a choice between the single European currency or ongoing currency exchange restrictions and a relapse to a much simpler means of trade with the outside world if it keeps the krona. This is the opinion of Arni Pall Arnason, Iceland’s Minister of Economics and Trade.

Shortly before Christmas, the Central Bank of Iceland handed the minister a report on the monetarism and currency issues outlook for Iceland. As the IMF is expected to leave the country next summer, that was one of the issues the report covered. The bank assesses the country’s options in its report and concludes that the only two realistic options are to join the EU, the EMU and the euro or to hold on to the krona. And in the short term, there is no real alternative to the krona.

Read more: http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2010/12/27/trade-minister-iceland-must-choose-between-euro-and-currency-controls/#ixzz1BsU6DxF8
"

An exchange accepting ISK currency is needed? Does not seem a very appealing currency to accept..
How does one start?
Find a Iceland company selling services that can be used abroad and the whole bitcoin community strives to use them.
All this extra revenue in BTC gets paid to the employees in BTC. We find one business that the first one uses and convince them to accept an additional revenue stream, allowing, with time the first one to pay them and so on.
I am pretty sure many up there are open and ready for an alternative. And payback all those useless debts with one huge ISK note and let the creditors swallow that one down.

Surely there must be books on this topic of introducing a new medium of exchange.
We need daily articles, SEO marketing, news articles in Icelandic media and commitment from the bitcoin community to assist-


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January 23, 2011, 07:30:16 PM
 #20

This is a great idea overall.

Also agree that this needs an elaborate strategy. A lot of the above is already going in the right direction.

Another way to establishing BTC would be to get Iceland people invest into BTC's and accumulate them, i.e. via i) getting an Iceland bank / fund investing into BTC's or get BTC listed on the exchange itself Grin

Seriously, if only about 100,000 (30% of the 320,000 population) Iceland people invest 100 $ into BTC, this would mean 10,000,000 $. With that, Iceland would already be the major BTC stakeholder (holding 80% of BTC economy, of course only if all other variables stay unchanged). This would also increase the wealth of Iceland people and the entire country massively since BTC/USD would rise at least 5 fold.

At the same time, businesses accepting BTC in Iceland would flourish.



For perspectve: A mini research on exchanges in Iceland revealed:

A wide variety of firms are currently listed on the exchange, including firms in retail, fishing, transportation, banks, insurance and numerous other areas. Because of the small size of the Icelandic economy and the low cost of public listing, many of the companies traded on the ICEX are relatively small and are relatively illiquid.

All domestic trading of Icelandic bonds, equities and mutual funds takes place on the ICEX. Bonds and equities are regularly traded, though the liquidity is small in comparison with other exchanges. No mutual funds are currently listed on the market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland_Stock_Exchange
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:OMXI15.jpg&filetimestamp=20090506213925

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January 23, 2011, 07:31:47 PM
 #21

Iceland is an ideal choice.  Not only do they produce a majority of their (non-transport) energy needs from geo-thermal, they have a year round heat demand.  Their own currency isn't particularly well accepted elsewhere, either.  It would be, in many ways, good for the population of Iceland to embrace Bitcoins.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 23, 2011, 08:44:57 PM
 #22

it seems the Icelandic stock market is handled by Nasdaq? That doesn't seem too appealing..
That would give it one hell of a publicity albeit focusing on the investment speculative part rather than used as medium of exchange for goods and services- All venues need to be considered-

How it starts will surprise us all probably, but it's going to happen one way or another and with or without bitcoin-

What is your view by starting at the bottom- those who really need a change. Due to the fabricated crisis in 2008- previously well off  families ended up queuing at the food bank to feed their family. One such organisation is Icelandic Aid to Families Organisation it seems.

Donations in BTC could be made to this organisation and/or Vladimir to setup one hell of a mining operation there.
Families then, or their representative, come get some food along with a  100BTC and a well written pamphlet in English and Icelandic.

On a similar note, I always wondered, when there is 500K people newly unemployed in a country such as the US; surely among them there must be a whole range of services and goods that can be exchanged rather than all lining up at the Job Office.

Thus, there needs be a bulletin board listing all the services and goods needed and all those offered. Linking the two allows for an economic echange and a Bitcoin transaction.

Being person to person, and at the beginning on a small scale, allows trust to work as well to facilitate the exchange and tracking-


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January 23, 2011, 08:59:45 PM
 #23

it seems the Icelandic stock market is handled by Nasdaq? That doesn't seem too appealing..
That would give it one hell of a publicity albeit focusing on the investment speculative part rather than used as medium of exchange for goods and services- All venues need to be considered-
I have seen that as well. Sometimes one must have visions and I agree that this is a difficult one.


What is your view by starting at the bottom- those who really need a change. Due to the fabricated crisis in 2008- previously well off  families ended up queuing at the food bank to feed their family.
That was also my point with saying that the Iceland inhabitants should get BTC in their hands (starting bottom up).

One such organisation is Icelandic Aid to Families Organisation it seems.
This is a promising idea.
The best would be to find a person in Iceland as Bitcoin ambassador who could do the local work.

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January 23, 2011, 09:17:21 PM
 #24


Bjork seems quite an active person in Iceland.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/23/bjork-protests-geothermal_n_810674.html
That is quite something, selling a geothermal sustainable energy to a foreign company.
Bjork presented a petition signed by 47K people. 1/6 of the population, that's pretty good.


She started as well a fund: in 2008-
"
(http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/bjork-icelandic-singer-and-venture-capitalist/)
Audur Capital, a venture capital firm in Reykjavik, Iceland, has started its second fund, named Bjork, with 100 million Icelandic kronur (about $816,330) from Bjork and the firm. They are raising more money now, with the goal of closing the fund in March.

The Bjork fund will invest in early-stage businesses concentrating on green technology, with the goal of helping spur a recovery of Iceland’s economy, which was devastated by a financial crisis this fall.
"

Maybe that is a bit too much a public figure? Quite like the idea, I must say. Gives me bitcoin bumps;

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January 23, 2011, 09:22:06 PM
 #25

+1
Why not trying with Bjork.

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January 23, 2011, 10:32:55 PM
 #26

It's decided then, we shall focus our advocacy upon Icelanders.  Are there any bitcoiners from Iceland already?  The rule of six degrees of separation says that someone in this forum will have some kind of indirect access to Bjork, the trick is discovering who that might be.  If there is an Icelander in the forum, that would likely be the person with the best personal access, considering the size of the Icelandic population is smaller than a mid sized American city.  All it might require is a phone call, an appointment and a bus ride to make this happen.

Let's not be subversive, however.  Whoever ends up making this pitch also needs to make it clear that the existing bitcoiners stand to gain if Bitcoin takes off in Iceland.  This should not be presented as an entirely altruistic enterprise.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Anonymous
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January 23, 2011, 10:35:32 PM
 #27

Wouldnt mind locating one of these http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2884.0  in a hackerspace in iceland to access the cheap power and support people most likely to accept bitcoin.
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January 23, 2011, 10:41:18 PM
 #28

Based on a quick google search, there doesn't seem to be an active makerspace/hakerspace in Iceland.  However, I'm sure that there is something that we could work with.  Even a GNU/Linux users group would a good lead.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 23, 2011, 10:43:18 PM
 #29

It's decided then, we shall focus our advocacy upon Icelanders.  Are there any bitcoiners from Iceland already?  The rule of six degrees of separation says that someone in this forum will have some kind of indirect access to Bjork, the trick is discovering who that might be.  If there is an Icelander in the forum, that would likely be the person with the best personal access, considering the size of the Icelandic population is smaller than a mid sized American city.  All it might require is a phone call, an appointment and a bus ride to make this happen.

Let's not be subversive, however.  Whoever ends up making this pitch also needs to make it clear that the existing bitcoiners stand to gain if Bitcoin takes off in Iceland.  This should not be presented as an entirely altruistic enterprise.

+1 agreed
and also agreed that we need to be 100% honest

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January 23, 2011, 10:49:51 PM
 #30

Found some organizations in Iceland:



Among the many social, professional, and service organizations in Iceland are the Chamber of Commerce, the YMCA and YWCA, the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, the Iceland Sport Association, the Federation of Icelandic Cooperative Societies, lodges of the Order of the Good Templar (temperance societies), Kiwanis, the Lion's Club, the Employers' Federation, the Association of Steam Trawler Owners, and the Union of Icelandic Fish Producers.

Notable national youth organizations include the Federation of Young Progressives, Independence Party Youth Organization, National Council of Icelandic Youth, National Union of Icelandic Students, Social Democratic Youth Federation, Youth Movement of the People's Alliance, and The Icelandic Boy and Girl Scouts Association.

Learned societies include the Icelandic Archaeological Society, the Icelandic Historical Society, the Icelandic Literary Society, the Music Society, the Icelandic Natural History Society, and the Agricultural Association. There are also the Icelandic Artists' Association, the Iceland Association of Pictorial Artists, the Icelandic Actors' Association, the Icelandic Musicians' Association, the Icelandic Composers' Society, the Icelandic Architects' Association, and the Icelandic Writers' Association. Among other cultural organizations are the Icelandic-American Society, the Danish Society, the Danish-Icelandic Society, the Anglo-Icelandic Society, the Alliance Française, the Nordic Society, and the Union of Women's Societies.


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January 23, 2011, 10:56:11 PM
 #31

Based on a quick google search, there doesn't seem to be an active makerspace/hakerspace in Iceland.  However, I'm sure that there is something that we could work with.  Even a GNU/Linux users group would a good lead.

yes there is...

http://hakkavelin.is/

Found this list here - http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces


So there you go....our first point of contact?

P.S. looks like they are looking for donations for an arduino hackerthon. A bitcoin sponsorship opportunity ?

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=144994722224328
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January 23, 2011, 11:03:43 PM
 #32

You guys are trying to resurrect medieval Iceland or something?

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January 23, 2011, 11:13:27 PM
 #33

You guys are trying to resurrect medieval Iceland or something?
Iceland is one of the most modern countries ( according to google searches...)
lets see if this is true
because if so they should be open to modern (bit)coins

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January 23, 2011, 11:28:59 PM
 #34

Something to note is that they are also the country which is the nearest(or at least one of the nearest) to direct democracy. If people can see the value of Bitcoin it will be easier for the government to accept as the national currency.

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January 24, 2011, 02:03:31 AM
 #35

It's decided then, we shall focus our advocacy upon Icelanders.  Are there any bitcoiners from Iceland already?  The rule of six degrees of separation says that someone in this forum will have some kind of indirect access to Bjork, the trick is discovering who that might be.  If there is an Icelander in the forum, that would likely be the person with the best personal access, considering the size of the Icelandic population is smaller than a mid sized American city.  All it might require is a phone call, an appointment and a bus ride to make this happen.

Let's not be subversive, however.  Whoever ends up making this pitch also needs to make it clear that the existing bitcoiners stand to gain if Bitcoin takes off in Iceland.  This should not be presented as an entirely altruistic enterprise.

I knew an Icelandic guy in college and I remember him mentioning some sort of contact with Bjork. It's a rather small country. I'm horrible at keeping in touch with people, but this is a good excuse. I'll report back on this sometime...

He's also a fantastic graphic artist, so perhaps he could commission extra work and take payment in BTC.

Something to note is that they are also the country which is the nearest(or at least one of the nearest) to direct democracy. If people can see the value of Bitcoin it will be easier for the government to accept as the national currency.

Democracy isn't a good thing IMO. The actual two positives I see are Iceland's history of a stable stateless order, and that they've passed legislation towards making the country a media "safe haven". I forget the specifics of how the latter works offhand, but it's a positive if anything.

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January 24, 2011, 02:37:42 AM
 #36

I love Iceland; if it wasn't in such a bad economical shape I would probably move there.
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January 24, 2011, 06:55:51 AM
 #37


This is awesome.  I love this forum.  I think my former econ teacher met the President of Iceland at an economics conference.  It's only a 2-degree separation but rather tenuous.  I'll have to check up on it. 
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January 24, 2011, 08:12:17 AM
 #38

I love Iceland; if it wasn't in such a bad economical shape I would probably move there.

I read somewhere that they are recovering from the crisis. The government didn't try to save failing companies.
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January 27, 2011, 05:14:38 AM
 #39

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

Me too!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER Cheesy
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January 27, 2011, 05:28:07 AM
 #40

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

Me too!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER Cheesy

I'll sell, 1BTC/state. Maybe they'll give me NJ at least.

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January 27, 2011, 10:26:03 PM
 #41

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

Me too!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER Cheesy

I'll sell, 1BTC/state. Maybe they'll give me NJ at least.

I'd say save 2100 BTC or 0.01% of world BTC reserves, than trade the rest. Only 10 000 tickets to this particular lottery/investment will ever be for sale. Optionally, save 2100 * N, where N is your personal greediness coefficient :-)

To me it makes more sense to buy according to personal wealth. It would be hard to buy 2100 if you couldn't afford it, and probably a silly place to stop if you are a millionaire.

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January 31, 2011, 01:31:54 PM
 #42

Yea great idea, lets replace freaking Euro with it!!!  Grin Irish really should consider default right now, get IMF off their back and get a decent currency. They will have to default eventually anyway, so the sooner the better. That's one radical idea for you.

Issue every household in the country, heaters based on 4x5970's. Get a few bombers ready to bomb  into smithereens any supercomputer attempting to attack bitcoins. How's this for Celtic Tiger Revival Plan (CTRP)? Beats any TARP and such.

Dude, you just became my hero!
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February 22, 2011, 04:53:58 PM
 #43

Anything going on with Iceland?

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February 22, 2011, 05:07:39 PM
 #44

Anything going on with Iceland?

Whats the difference with Iceland?

One letter and about 6 months hhahahahahaha *snort*

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February 25, 2011, 12:09:11 AM
 #45

Anything going on with Iceland?

Icelands in a better position than Ireland, fopr one thing they didn't bail out the banks.

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February 25, 2011, 01:48:19 AM
 #46

Based on a quick google search, there doesn't seem to be an active makerspace/hakerspace in Iceland.  However, I'm sure that there is something that we could work with.  Even a GNU/Linux users group would a good lead.

yes there is...

http://hakkavelin.is/

Found this list here - http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces


So there you go....our first point of contact?

P.S. looks like they are looking for donations for an arduino hackerthon. A bitcoin sponsorship opportunity ?

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=144994722224328

Hi, I'm Björgvin. I'm an active member of Hakkavélin hackerspace.

I've been lurking on these forums for about two weeks since the dollar parity, fascinated with bitcoin taking off for real (ohh, why didn't I mine back in October when I briefly tested it first.)

I'm actually in the mids (on and off) of writing an article about Bitcoin in Icelandic to publish on my facebook or blog. I actually got more material to base it on today, after this news item was broadcast, http://visir.is/audveldara-ad-nota-facebook-peninga-en-islenskar-kronur/article/2011110229387, titled: "Facebook credids to be easier to use than Krona". It's a report on a talk at a conference by Orri Hauksson, Director General of The federation of Icelandic Industries. "Orri adds: The future could be that virtual currencies will be valued equal to Dollars and Euros. They will affect the real economy and the physical worlds. But when, I won't forecast".

As for our hackerspace, we are not having any upcoming arduino hackerthons. But we are about to order plastic parts for a Prusa Mendel RepRap 3D-printer, I'm not sure if you can get that stuff for bitcoins Smiley.


Björgvin
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February 25, 2011, 07:11:22 AM
 #47



Hi, I'm Björgvin. I'm an active member of Hakkavélin hackerspace.

I've been lurking on these forums for about two weeks since the dollar parity, fascinated with bitcoin taking off for real (ohh, why didn't I mine back in October when I briefly tested it first.)


Procrastination can save you sometimes, too.  If I hadn't procrastinated in my plan to deposit into Icesave, I would have lost my ass.  A week later it collapsed.

Did you read this whole thread?  What do you think of the plan?  And what is the local power rate per KWH?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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February 25, 2011, 07:30:13 AM
 #48

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

Me too!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER Cheesy

Well, I might sell them a few bitcoins.  If the government is giving me 1kg of gold per BTC.

At the end of the day, the debate between communism and capitalism is not an economic one, because economics is not a reliable science.  It's a moral one.  It's whether or not people should be allowed to not care about other people's problems. I, for one, am not enthused by the idea of a world where everyone would be enslaved in order to avoid that anyone is miserable.
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February 25, 2011, 07:32:02 AM
 #49

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

Me too!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER Cheesy

Well, I might sell them a few bitcoins.  If the government is giving me 1kg of gold per BTC.


You might just live to see the day that 1 BTC is equal to 1KG of gold, but I'm doubtful that the US government actually has any left.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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February 25, 2011, 10:08:36 AM
 #50

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

Me too!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER Cheesy

Well, I might sell them a few bitcoins.  If the government is giving me 1kg of gold per BTC.


You might just live to see the day that 1 BTC is equal to 1KG of gold, but I'm doubtful that the US government actually has any left.

Oh, I'm sure there are a bar or two left in Ft. Knox... They wouldn't spend that much money just for theater, right?

...

RIGHT?

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February 25, 2011, 01:46:54 PM
 #51

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

Me too!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER Cheesy

Well, I might sell them a few bitcoins.  If the government is giving me 1kg of gold per BTC.


You might just live to see the day that 1 BTC is equal to 1KG of gold, but I'm doubtful that the US government actually has any left.

Oh, I'm sure there are a bar or two left in Ft. Knox... They wouldn't spend that much money just for theater, right?

...

RIGHT?


Gold covered Tungsten bars ftw
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February 25, 2011, 01:54:57 PM
 #52

Based on a quick google search, there doesn't seem to be an active makerspace/hakerspace in Iceland.  However, I'm sure that there is something that we could work with.  Even a GNU/Linux users group would a good lead.

yes there is...

http://hakkavelin.is/

Found this list here - http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces


So there you go....our first point of contact?

P.S. looks like they are looking for donations for an arduino hackerthon. A bitcoin sponsorship opportunity ?

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=144994722224328

Hi, I'm Björgvin. I'm an active member of Hakkavélin hackerspace.

I've been lurking on these forums for about two weeks since the dollar parity, fascinated with bitcoin taking off for real (ohh, why didn't I mine back in October when I briefly tested it first.)

I'm actually in the mids (on and off) of writing an article about Bitcoin in Icelandic to publish on my facebook or blog. I actually got more material to base it on today, after this news item was broadcast, http://visir.is/audveldara-ad-nota-facebook-peninga-en-islenskar-kronur/article/2011110229387, titled: "Facebook credids to be easier to use than Krona". It's a report on a talk at a conference by Orri Hauksson, Director General of The federation of Icelandic Industries. "Orri adds: The future could be that virtual currencies will be valued equal to Dollars and Euros. They will affect the real economy and the physical worlds. But when, I won't forecast".

As for our hackerspace, we are not having any upcoming arduino hackerthons. But we are about to order plastic parts for a Prusa Mendel RepRap 3D-printer, I'm not sure if you can get that stuff for bitcoins Smiley.


Björgvin


glad you decided to post . The reprap stuff is so cool.
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February 26, 2011, 07:37:28 AM
 #53

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

Me too!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER Cheesy

Well, I might sell them a few bitcoins.  If the government is giving me 1kg of gold per BTC.


You might just live to see the day that 1 BTC is equal to 1KG of gold, but I'm doubtful that the US government actually has any left.

Oh, I'm sure there are a bar or two left in Ft. Knox... They wouldn't spend that much money just for theater, right?

...

RIGHT?

Fort Know hasn't been audited since FDR.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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February 26, 2011, 12:14:31 PM
 #54

I invite the bitcoin community to assist in the creation of a new government
bitcoin is of course the currency of this new government.
My ideals go along with most of this community.
this new government is ment for everyone and so all may not agree, but it is a work in progress. it is a wiki so it is able to adapt and change quicker than any other current government.

http://opticbit.com/phpwiki

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February 26, 2011, 12:41:04 PM
 #55

I invite the bitcoin community to assist in the creation of a new government
bitcoin is of course the currency of this new government.
My ideals go along with most of this community.
this new government is ment for everyone and so all may not agree, but it is a work in progress. it is a wiki so it is able to adapt and change quicker than any other current government.

http://opticbit.com/phpwiki

Why, after noticing that the bed is on fire, should we stamp it out, only to start one in the sink?

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February 26, 2011, 12:44:21 PM
 #56

I invite the bitcoin community to assist in the creation of a new government

Your web page says "We seek no control over anyone", yet "top wage earners are not to earn more than 100x their lowest wage earning employee", and licensing and permits are required after a one-year grace period.

Do you see the inherent contradication?
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February 26, 2011, 02:16:26 PM
 #57

creation of a new government




fail.
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February 26, 2011, 10:11:39 PM
 #58

I invite the bitcoin community to assist in the creation of a new government

Your web page says "We seek no control over anyone", yet "top wage earners are not to earn more than 100x their lowest wage earning employee", and licensing and permits are required after a one-year grace period.

Do you see the inherent contradication?

I know, its a work in progress, I'm not sure how to  instill all the ideals with out breaking others.
however businesses are not people, it is the business who pay the people. 
If you have a better idea fix it.
some government is needed, some type of centralized, or decentralized method to handle certain things.
I'm not sure if licenses or permits would be the right term, they are needed in the current system, maybe they arn't really needed, but some type of trust system, it is only a suggestion as I have found getting the initial funds and filling out all forms is very difficult.

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February 26, 2011, 10:15:07 PM
 #59

I invite the bitcoin community to assist in the creation of a new government
bitcoin is of course the currency of this new government.
My ideals go along with most of this community.
this new government is ment for everyone and so all may not agree, but it is a work in progress. it is a wiki so it is able to adapt and change quicker than any other current government.

http://opticbit.com/phpwiki

Why, after noticing that the bed is on fire, should we stamp it out, only to start one in the sink?


I think of it as putting out the fire that has spread to the living room, removing the old fireplace, and putting in a newer safer more effecient one.

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February 26, 2011, 10:44:33 PM
 #60

I think of it as putting out the fire that has spread to the living room, removing the old fireplace, and putting in a newer safer more effecient one.

I've got abetter idea: let's not use a fire: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

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February 27, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
 #61

I think of it as putting out the fire that has spread to the living room, removing the old fireplace, and putting in a newer safer more effecient one.

I've got abetter idea: let's not use a fire: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Agreed. After all, it's "a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

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February 27, 2011, 01:26:34 AM
 #62

I think of it as putting out the fire that has spread to the living room, removing the old fireplace, and putting in a newer safer more effecient one.

You didn't explain why we need the government.

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February 27, 2011, 02:59:51 AM
 #63

I invite the bitcoin community to assist in the creation of a new government
bitcoin is of course the currency of this new government.
My ideals go along with most of this community.
this new government is ment for everyone and so all may not agree, but it is a work in progress. it is a wiki so it is able to adapt and change quicker than any other current government.

http://opticbit.com/phpwiki

Why, after noticing that the bed is on fire, should we stamp it out, only to start one in the sink?


I think of it as putting out the fire that has spread to the living room, removing the old fireplace, and putting in a newer safer more effecient one.

How about we fire the government ?

Bitcoin is like a fire blanket .
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February 27, 2011, 04:39:51 AM
 #64

I think of it as putting out the fire that has spread to the living room, removing the old fireplace, and putting in a newer safer more effecient one.

You didn't explain why we need the government.

I'm not sure I can explain why we need government.

As i see it there are two major categories of useful things a government does, That makes a government useful, Generally Agreed on Acceptable Behavior, and Public Service type programs.  There may be other I can't think of or don't know of.

Maybe a government is not what I'm looking to create, but a way to and inform others of what rules people wish to live by, and have protect.  If the whole can agree by two differing rules,  they can be accepted as Option 1, and 2  One group may select option 1, while another selects option 2.  Additional options can be created as needed.  If a certain group would like to live a certain way that other groups may not want to live, but no one sees any harm in it than it is allowable.

Governments have some useful programs, other programs are a waste.  I would like to see the useful ones optimized to do its best, and the wasteful ones either ended or fixed.  I can't think of any government programs that everyone would agree is useful,  But I would rather see a properly formed government maintaining certain things, rather than private individuals, or companies who only care about the immediate  profit, and not long term. 

If the best way really is to have no government than that is how it should be, but as it is today I don't think it is likely.  I have a dream of document that everyone can say, it is has what they want. it would give a possibility for both sides to compromise and get what they want, instead of nothing, or something in the middle, I know contradicts itself but there are various options to select.  I would like to see a document set up that the people can agree on, then take to the government and say these are the rule we will live by, adopt it, or be ignored.  We will live by it either way.

Individuals should not fear Government, Government should fear Individuals.  What do you do when the Government no loger fears an individual?  What does the Government fear?  Government does not fear individuals, it fears groups of people who join together to form a ____.

I thought more people would agree with me, maybe I haven't expressed my thoughts well enough.  My thoughts on this are difficult to explain,  as there are many complex parts, much like bitcoin, and I don't really have a complete vision since it requires everyones thoughts. Maybe I should check with a different group of openminded people.  I have made some changes based on your criticisms.  So far no one seems to like the idea.  The Base of the Idea is to have a Government formed in wiki with a few of the base thoughts I have seeded, but they are only there as a seed to give ideas, to get others to change as they see fit.  If you don't like the ideas change them to what you think is better.  I have set up a captcha and unlocked from new/anon.

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February 27, 2011, 04:44:29 AM
 #65

I think of it as putting out the fire that has spread to the living room, removing the old fireplace, and putting in a newer safer more effecient one.

You didn't explain why we need the government.

I'm not sure I can explain why we need government.

As i see it there are two major categories of useful things a government does, That makes a government useful, Generally Agreed on Acceptable Behavior, and Public Service type programs.  There may be other I can't think of or don't know of.

Maybe a government is not what I'm looking to create, but a way to and inform others of what rules people wish to live by, and have protect.  If the whole can agree by two differing rules,  they can be accepted as Option 1, and 2  One group may select option 1, while another selects option 2.  Additional options can be created as needed.  If a certain group would like to live a certain way that other groups may not want to live, but no one sees any harm in it than it is allowable.


Search for a description of a 'phyle', and let us know if this is close to what you are imagining.


"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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February 27, 2011, 04:53:30 AM
 #66

Search for a description of a 'phyle', and let us know if this is close to what you are imagining.

I presume you mean the Neal Stephenson definition, and not the Wikipedia definition. The former will take much more research. Smiley

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February 27, 2011, 05:37:39 AM
 #67

Diamond Age, is the book you'll find that in... Essentially, voluntary social orders which you chose to join at majority.

Those aren't governments though.

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February 27, 2011, 05:56:20 AM
 #68

Search for a description of a 'phyle', and let us know if this is close to what you are imagining.

I presume you mean the Neal Stephenson definition, and not the Wikipedia definition. The former will take much more research. Smiley

the wikipedia version seems to be of about geographic division, this is a small part of what I'm thinking, but only because people who live in proximity are likely to agree on similar things since they were brought up that way.  and is a good way to organize down to the individual if needed.  

Neal Stephenson version,- The Diamond Age, I have skimmed over the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Age  and read the phyle section in full along with other portions.  Looks like the book could be a good read...  This seems to be more on track of what I'm thinking.  It does not complete my thoughts though.

Part of the thought is to create a system from scratch using the good parts of various systems in place, and other ideas that are good but may not be in place yet.  This system can adapt more quickly with out as much mess, and can be more open to the public on what is going on.  

A method of secure anonymous voting would need to be implemented along with many other.  I have only thought about this in my spare time, and never really wrote anything down until now.  Got tired of doing nothing about it.  And was somewhat inspired by recent events in Egypt, and certain (non childish- first aid, dial up access...) efforts of Anonymous.

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February 27, 2011, 06:34:06 AM
 #69

You seem to be intent on recreating old mistakes... Voting? Limits on Business? Sounds more liberal than libertarian. I can explain to you, point for point, why government is not needed, as can probably each of the other people who responded to you so far...

Can you explain why we need someone to tell us what to do?

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February 27, 2011, 06:51:06 AM
 #70

You seem to be intent on recreating old mistakes... Voting? Limits on Business? Sounds more liberal than libertarian. I can explain to you, point for point, why government is not needed, as can probably each of the other people who responded to you so far...

Can you explain why we need someone to tell us what to do?

if not government then what?  I guess I need some things need explained.

Maybe i should say its more about what people will do and not making them do anything

voting is only a suggestion, some other system is welcome

MOST people do not need to be told what to do.

what do you do for those who do need to be told?

If my view is that the only exception to having the right to do what you want is if it prohibits others from doing what they want, and in that case it is just to take away that person's ability to continually prevent someone's freedom.

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February 27, 2011, 07:04:06 AM
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You seem to be intent on recreating old mistakes... Voting? Limits on Business? Sounds more liberal than libertarian. I can explain to you, point for point, why government is not needed, as can probably each of the other people who responded to you so far...

Can you explain why we need someone to tell us what to do?
if not government then what?  I guess I need some things need explained.

Maybe this will help? http://www.jonathangullible.com/PoL/philosophy_of_liberty.swf

Also, you might check out the wikipedia article I first linked to about anarcho-capitalism.

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February 27, 2011, 08:41:17 AM
 #72

Quote

Maybe this will help? http://www.jonathangullible.com/PoL/philosophy_of_liberty.swf

Also, you might check out the wikipedia article I first linked to about anarcho-capitalism.

i've seen that animation or something similar a while a go.

anarcho-capitalism looks like something good to incorporate into the system I am suggesting.

my knowledge of legal systems is very limited and basic.   I have a lot of research to do, so that i can organise and explain my thoughts better before asking more knowledgeable people to assist in drafting something like this.

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February 27, 2011, 08:56:05 AM
 #73

anarcho-capitalism looks like something good to incorporate into the system I am suggesting.

Anarcho-capitalism is not compatible with a government. They are mutually exclusive.

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February 27, 2011, 10:03:08 AM
 #74

Free market anarchism based on the non aggression principle is the best thing we could hope for.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_anarchism

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February 27, 2011, 04:14:52 PM
 #75

Free market anarchism based on the non aggression principle is the best thing we could hope for.

And we already have a roadmap to get there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism

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April 16, 2011, 06:10:01 AM
 #76


Maybe this will help? http://www.jonathangullible.com/PoL/philosophy_of_liberty.swf

Also, you might check out the wikipedia article I first linked to about anarcho-capitalism.

You might also see....  The Tiny Dot  http://youtu.be/H6b70TUbdfs

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April 16, 2011, 08:41:32 AM
 #77


Or just keep it as it is, BitCoin - the stateless currency.

Yes, bitcoin as the stateless currency.  We should however focus more time on implementing decentralized p2p exchanges and also address the vulnerabilities of IRC in light of an attack.

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April 16, 2011, 12:14:01 PM
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Or just keep it as it is, BitCoin - the stateless currency.

Yes, bitcoin as the stateless currency.  We should however focus more time on implementing decentralized p2p exchanges and also address the vulnerabilities of IRC in light of an attack.

What exactly do you have in mind for "decentralized p2p exchanges"? Are you able to clarify that interesting sounding concept with details as yet?

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April 17, 2011, 12:12:34 AM
 #79

It is possible in America to promote and pass competition in currency bills. This would in essence legalize Bitcoin. The popularity of US Congressman Ron Paul would make it very easy to create a political climate for currency competition if there were to be worsening price inflation.
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April 17, 2011, 12:50:12 AM
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Personally I wouldn't want to see Bitcoin legalized in the US...that is just another word for regulated.
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April 17, 2011, 01:26:59 AM
 #81

That is an interesting viewpoint, and actually quite possible.

To start this, one would need to find one jurisdiction that would be the "low hanging fruit" - one that is most ready to accept bitcoins as national currency.

who could this be?

No government will ever adopt it as a national currency.   It's not in their interest.

However, the most likely place it evolves as a de facto currency is where the first country that has widespread internet usage, a decent standard of living, and then a currency collapse.  This means not places like Zimbabwe, but more on line with Greece/Portugal/Argentina types.
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April 18, 2011, 11:09:19 PM
 #82

That is an interesting viewpoint, and actually quite possible.

To start this, one would need to find one jurisdiction that would be the "low hanging fruit" - one that is most ready to accept bitcoins as national currency.

who could this be?

No government will ever adopt it as a national currency.   It's not in their interest.

However, the most likely place it evolves as a de facto currency is where the first country that has widespread internet usage, a decent standard of living, and then a currency collapse.  This means not places like Zimbabwe, but more on line with Greece/Portugal/Argentina types.

No government would.

In the case of Zimbabwe, if a private player could instate a reliable means for the non-electronic community to interact indirectly with bitcoin then bitcoin would also be set. I'm thinking in terms of the use of bitcoin to protect wealth and/or to fund larger projects. The ability to stably protect wealth and assign capital leading to benefit for those participating downstream in the economy.

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April 20, 2011, 12:12:11 AM
 #83

anarcho-capitalism looks like something good to incorporate into the system I am suggesting.

Anarcho-capitalism is not compatible with a government. They are mutually exclusive.

I'm pro-anarcho-capitalism and anti-government...
But I have to balance that with the Real World...
So don't take it out on me.

The NSA has at least 20,000 employees...
And these are not fringe hackers...
But highly experienced, well paid engineers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency

You can be certain that people have been assigned to monitor BitCoin...
That the network is being professionally monitored...
And all the principals are being monitored...
You may not know who Satoshi is... they most certainly do.

The US Justice Department has just shut down top 4-5 online poker sites...
Sure, it's only poker... no big deal, right?
But that is NOT the issue...
It's about circumventing the banking system and money laundering...
The principals are charged with offenses carrying 30 year jail terms...
And US prosecutors have a 90% conviction rate after plea bargaining...
For billionaires like Howard Lederer the new currency will be packs of cigarettes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13121768

BitCoin is on a  long-term collision course with the US Justice Department...
Maybe specific anti-crypto-currency laws will be required...
But that's only a matter of a few years.

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=227.0

No one seemed to take the above thread seriously...
I believe one of the posters is under arrest.

Being an Armchair Revolutionary is a blast...
Till the day the cops knock on your door and seize all your computers.

 
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April 20, 2011, 12:40:43 AM
 #84



No one seemed to take the above thread seriously...
I believe one of the posters is under arrest.


Who would that be, and under what charge?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 20, 2011, 01:53:50 AM
 #85

The NSA has at least 20,000 employees...
And these are not fringe hackers...
But highly experienced, well paid engineers.
I have no evidence to support my suspicion but I would find it surprising if I was to learn that an agency of the US (or other government/entity) had more skilled and experienced hackers/developers/engineers than the combined hacker/developer/engineer community. Not any specific community but rather the global community who possess tendencies of being distrusting of such government agencies/entities. I could be wrong though.
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April 20, 2011, 04:57:22 AM
 #86

Jails not that bad. Its more of a holiday camp these days - three meals a day and all that.

 Smiley

If they did happen to throw someone in there that would just make them a martyr like Julian Assange - and a canary in the cage that governments were moving against bitcoin. They cant possibly get to everyone that uses bitcoin all at the same time.


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April 20, 2011, 06:41:54 AM
 #87

Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?

"Bitcoin, the New Zimbabwe Dollar" would be TERRIBLE marketing.  How about a nice, respectable country that is just tired of using somebody else's currency?  If the value of the dollar keeps falling, there may be a lot of those in the next 20 years.


How about belize?
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April 20, 2011, 09:30:53 AM
 #88


Actually, Kenya was one of my picks for widespread adoption. They already use SMS text credits as a form of tradeable currency. Not far from there to bitcoin, conceptually they are ahead of the rest of the world ... they just need to hook into BitcoinJ client or a similar SMS app.

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