CoinTerra announces <$3/GH January pricing and new product availability

[FeedbackLoop]

Several generations... ouch!

[dexX7]

(link in 4. doesn't work).

You didn't actually prove anything. If a scammer wanted to scam us, they could just create website called: http://scamware.com/team/ and put there a reference to Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Dr Sherwani.
If you try to prove that CT is legit, you can't use CT website as a source.

Corrected. It's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K199f61n4qM&&t=2m27s.

Sure a scammer could do this and I'm well aware that the CT website can't be used for verification, though I think the video produced by could be considered as semi-hard-proof of Dr. Sherwani's involvement.

[BeepBeep2]

(link in 4. doesn't work).

You didn't actually prove anything. If a scammer wanted to scam us, they could just create website called: http://scamware.com/team/ and put there a reference to Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Dr Sherwani.
If you try to prove that CT is legit, you can't use CT website as a source.

Corrected. It's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K199f61n4qM&&t=2m27s.

Sure a scammer could do this and I'm well aware that the CT website can't be used for verification, though I think the video produced by could be considered as semi-hard-proof of Dr. Sherwani's involvement.

+1.
Just because they should fire the guy in charge or art design for their website doesn't necessarily make them a scam. 

These guys are swimming in some money already, from high profile management positions in the silicon industry, they wouldn't just sit around, get together, and make up some fictitious company with video proof that they are involved just for some LOLs.

[woodrake]

<SNIP>
and now asxproject.com no work anymore.

Please understand that we do not wish to spread FUD. But do not continue on ignoring this equation.

+1 on the "highly questionable" vote.

Giles (evilscoop) and I watch the new ASIC companies with great care so we can appropriately invest CipherMine's funds, but even then we're not immune to being caught out (eg. Avalon's ASICs, though we're hopefully getting a refund). We are getting a lot better at spotting the dodgy ones though!

Both of us are highly skeptical of CoinTerra. By contrast, we have had good dealings with both HashFast and BitFury. I have spoken to several people at the former and the CEO is a friend of a friend, and I've spoken to Punin himself from BitFuryStrikesBack and Giles has taken delivery of one of their units. Both are organisations are responsive to inquiries (albeit after a delay in BitFuryStrikesBack's case); that is the hallmark of a genuine operation.

I fear for KNC as well, I must admit... but we shall see.

Kate.

[aerobatic]

<SNIP>
and now asxproject.com no work anymore.

Please understand that we do not wish to spread FUD. But do not continue on ignoring this equation.

+1 on the "highly questionable" vote.

Giles (evilscoop) and I watch the new ASIC companies with great care so we can appropriately invest CipherMine's funds, but even then we're not immune to being caught out (eg. Avalon's ASICs, though we're hopefully getting a refund). We are getting a lot better at spotting the dodgy ones though!

Both of us are highly skeptical of CoinTerra. By contrast, we have had good dealings with both HashFast and BitFury. I have spoken to several people at the former and the CEO is a friend of a friend, and I've spoken to Punin himself from BitFuryStrikesBack and Giles has taken delivery of one of their units. Both are organisations are responsive to inquiries (albeit after a delay in BitFuryStrikesBack's case); that is the hallmark of a genuine operation.

I fear for KNC as well, I must admit... but we shall see.

Kate.

I can vouch for pretty much all of those companies having spent significant time either in person or on the phone with the executives of KnC, Hashfast & Cointerra, (and have also met BitFury's Valery).  All four of those are legitimate companies and i am confident that none of them are scams!   I agree its safer to be wary of new asic companies and there are plenty of scams out there, but i seriously think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with KnC, Hashfast & Cointerra if you think they are scams.   In all three of these cases, the executives have publicly disclosed who they are, they attend events and conferences in person, they talk to anyone who wants to call them on the phone, and they are legitimate businesses with executives who have excellent track records and with a highly verifiable past employment history.  I have also dealt with all of those companies and purchased from them (and no, i havnt received anything from any of them yet, but KnC is due this month, Hashfast next month and Cointerra the month after)

Since you seem to be based in the uk (and so am i) why dont we compare notes and discuss the relative risk of dealing with the various bitcoin mining companies.

-- Jez

[newguy05]

those guys are just grasping for straws right now, offloading as much risk as possible to the suc..err buyers, given the difficulty gap.

ladies & gents we are now finally in the endgame, expect to see many asic hardware manufacturer to start losing money by next year and fold shop.  unless you have a very thoroughly understanding of what is going on and what is happening in the next few months, your best bet is just to buy bitcoins directly instead of asic hardware if want to be in the game.  Personally i am just holding cash and waiting.

By fold up shop you mean mine like hell, right? :-)

I mean the r&d, manufacturing, and shipping cost basis of those hardware will no longer support a profit with the difficulty increase and instead cost more than income.  Look at the asic blades, their cost basis is probably 1-2 btc, it was selling for 50 btc, now it's around 4 btc.  In a few months this will no longer be profitable to manufacture.

Now look at a new manufacturer such as cointerra who has not made any profit yet from the first few asic waves like am already done, they are just hitting the market at those stressed prices to begin with and the situation will only get worse, for them it's not only the hardware cost but also the r&d cost. Yes the chips will be cheaper to make as they pack more gh, but the endgame is still bleak with THs of difficulty all coming online from various late comers trying to make the final wave.

Bitfury barely made it in to squeeze out a good profit, anything new coming out dec+ will have a very difficult time unless btc/usd increases drastically which looks doubtful.

The writing is on the walls.

EDIT: for anyone confused i am talking about asic manufacturers only in above post, for small retail miners the game is already up.

[Ytterbium]

<SNIP>
and now asxproject.com no work anymore.

Please understand that we do not wish to spread FUD. But do not continue on ignoring this equation.

+1 on the "highly questionable" vote.

Giles (evilscoop) and I watch the new ASIC companies with great care so we can appropriately invest CipherMine's funds, but even then we're not immune to being caught out (eg. Avalon's ASICs, though we're hopefully getting a refund). We are getting a lot better at spotting the dodgy ones though!

Both of us are highly skeptical of CoinTerra. By contrast, we have had good dealings with both HashFast and BitFury. I have spoken to several people at the former and the CEO is a friend of a friend, and I've spoken to Punin himself from BitFuryStrikesBack and Giles has taken delivery of one of their units. Both are organisations are responsive to inquiries (albeit after a delay in BitFuryStrikesBack's case); that is the hallmark of a genuine operation.

I fear for KNC as well, I must admit... but we shall see.

Kate.

I think the guys at CoinTerra just think they're the shit and so much better at chip design that they can be way late and it won't matter because they're just so awesome. I think their new prices are waking up to the reality of how overpriced they actually were. I think people are actually coming to their senses and realizing they need to see where the difficulty is going to be before buying new hardware.

[Puppet]

I think the guys at CoinTerra just think they're the shit

If you compare their industry experience with that of BFL management team, they *are* the shit.
Whether that translates to a timely launch and within spec, remains to be seen, but they have infinitely better chances than BFL.

I think their new prices are waking up to the reality of how overpriced they actually were.

So overpriced they sold out. Dont blame them for the stupidity of miners.

[Ytterbium]

I think the guys at CoinTerra just think they're the shit

If you compare their industry experience with that of BFL management team, they *are* the shit.
Whether that translates to a timely launch and within spec, remains to be seen, but they have infinitely better chances than BFL.

Well duh, that's true of pretty much any random person off the street. Not much of an accomplishment

Anyway I agree I think they're pretty good.  If I was in the market for a miner I'd go with them over HashFast. But the network is going to be pretty insane by January.

[AsicShill]

Anyway I agree I think they're pretty good.  If I was in the market for a miner I'd go with them over HashFast. But the network is going to be pretty insane by January.

Curious... why would you go with them over hashfast?  Ubiquify seem to be pretty on the ball.  Hashfast will most likely be Hash-Deliver-Late, but I believe they will be delivering before Cointerra. HDL also has the MPP for the inevitability of anticipated difficulty growth and late delivery baked in.

[Puppet]

HDL also has the MPP for the inevitability of anticipated difficulty growth and late delivery baked in.

While it appears a nice gesture (/marketing gimmick), it doesnt really account for much.
t kicks in after 90 days, with no promise of when it will ship. By the time you get it, it may be like getting an extra FPGA from BFL today, or rather in 3 months.
Worst of all, you get the chip, not the miner. How much they charge for the miner is completely up to them, so your free chips may be worth nothing. So its more like getting an FPGA chip from BFL. Wouldnt that make you happy?

THat said, I have no reason to be more confident in Cointerra or  hashfast's ability to deliver. On paper both have the right experience.

[AussieHash]

http://thegenesisblock.com/cointerra-and-hashfast-sell-17m-of-bitcoin-miners-open-second-batch-sales/

CoinTerra has almost completely sold out their first batch, which totaled 2 PH/s (2,000,000 GH/s). The 2 PH/s consisted of 4,000 individual 500 GH/s ASIC chips, with each of the TerraMiner IV units using four chips in parallel. Iyengar stated that a majority of their pre-orders so far have been for TerraMiners, as opposed to bulk chip orders, and this was split evenly between retail and larger orders. This would amount to around 1,000 TerraMiner IV’s expected to ship in December, netting CoinTerra $14,000,000 at retail value, though bulk order discounts likely reduced this top line number.

[woodrake]

Interestingly I immediately got an email from someone at Cointerra expressing disappointment at my skepticism (they'd obviously like me as a customer).

Apparently they don't engage with the forums because they are too full of trolls. I did point out that it seems odd that a company in the bitcoin space would not wish to engage their their customer community.

I've asked if I can publish the exchange anyway.

Kate.

[woodrake]

Curious... why would you go with them over hashfast?  Ubiquify seem to be pretty on the ball.  Hashfast will most likely be Hash-Deliver-Late, but I believe they will be delivering before Cointerra. HDL also has the MPP for the inevitability of anticipated difficulty growth and late delivery baked in.

In my case:

1) HashFast have provided factory tours to members of this forum.
2) The CEO is a friend of a friend, and thought of highly in the Bay area community.
3) HashFast have been extremely helpful in all correspondence and have thorough and detailed terms of sale; they are what I would consider to be a proper, upstanding business.
4) They have now taped out.
5) They provided limited pre-orders (like BitFury) which encourages one to believe that they have pitched it at a level they can actually deliver.

As for the MPP, I don't think it is a gimmick, but rather an insurance sale. The chips cost almost nothing and once they have the process down the chassis will also be relatively cheap. I believe the MPP will

A big part of it is also instinct. I will be watching these guys carefully (as well as VMC and KNC) in coming weeks and months, and by next year we'll all know which horse should have been backed.

Kate.

[creativex]

You're a wise one Kate. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[monkee]

Apparently they don't engage with the forums because they are too full of trolls. I did point out that it seems odd that a company in the bitcoin space would not wish to engage their their customer community.

i'm pretty sure forum members (educated buyers) are not their target audience

[aerobatic]

Apparently they don't engage with the forums because they are too full of trolls. I did point out that it seems odd that a company in the bitcoin space would not wish to engage their their customer community.

i'm pretty sure forum members (educated buyers) are not their target audience

While several forum members are educated buyers, there are certainly a lot of trolls and bullies on this forum.  the signal to noise ratio is very low. 

[monkee]

Apparently they don't engage with the forums because they are too full of trolls. I did point out that it seems odd that a company in the bitcoin space would not wish to engage their their customer community.

i'm pretty sure forum members (educated buyers) are not their target audience

While several forum members are educated buyers, there are certainly a lot of trolls and bullies on this forum.  the signal to noise ratio is very low.  

the criticism's and questions i've seen, regarding cointerra, have been perfectly reasonable, justified and some would be hard to defend.  i don't blame them for being scared to address them here but they should, particularly in threads they start themselves.

i give them credit for actually fixing, or at least attempting to fix some of the concerns raised here, even if they don't address them on the forum.  you can see they are sort of trying, which is more than some other vendors.  

lowering their prices by 38% since the time of launch is a step in the right direction and an acknowledgement that they were massively overpriced at launch, but december orders still are and they really need to do something to help out people like this poor fellow:

WTF...the price is less than half the December batch?  You guys had better ship all those December orders on December 1st or there are going to be some seriously pissed off people.  

+1!
I have ordered 5x2TH/s for $70.000
And now I get get 10x2TH/s for the same, but I must
need to wait one month more?

Thats really not fair! I will try to upgrade my order to 10x2TH/s

what cointerra did was similar to avalon's waiting to announce bulk chip sales until a few days after an overpriced batch 3 sale completed.  pretty harsh treatment for the first customers willing to take a chance on you, imho

[Puppet]

What are you babbling about? Hashrate is already growing by ~100% per month now (*), and in december and january, it will probably grow a lot faster than that if only a fraction of those 28nm asic providers manage to ship what they promise;  that means hardware prices per GH will drop by 50% or more per month.  Thats completely logical and to be expected. February delivery batches will cost ~$1.5/GH if there will be any and march delivery will be sold for <$1/GH.

Here is another newsflash: none of those are very likely to yield a positive ROI, but at least  if they live up to their shipping promises,  the losses will be fairly consistent throughout the various batches.


(*)
http://bitcoin.sipa.be/growth-10k.png

2.5% growth per day, compounded gives >100% per month. Note the rate of growth is accelerating, and thats well before anyone has shipped a single 28nm chip. THings will get very, very ugly, if you are shocked by the prospect that mining profitability and therefore prices will drop by 50% or more per month; you shouldnt be in the mining business.

[console_cowboy]

If they are going to announce products and have an active account on this forum, then they should support those threads. Trolls should be quite easy to ignore and prove false with simple statements. The most blatant trolls could just be left alone. It is really bad form to start these threads and disappear, it gives the trolls a lot more ammunition to work with.

They still have yet to answer any of the criticisms leveled against them from what I have seen. It is true that they lowered prices, but I am not sure they are profitable at even that low. The market is going to explode over the next few months, and cointerra themselves have promised to raised the difficulty quite a bit with their release. A 30% per a difficulty jump rise might look small if KNC really can ship 2PH/s themselves, with cointerra promising that in their first order. It's possible we will see a few jumps that look full vertical.

I am also starting to think their primary target audience is the less educated miner as well. The whole point of the video they released was to explain what bitcoin mining is and how their machines are the best, with little to no real technical knowledge shown. This makes me think that their target audience is new players to the bitcoin scene. If this is the case, it is quite possible they know their machines are overpriced and it is intentional as new people will not run calculations well. The fact that they are only taking non-refundable payments at this time supports this. I am very worried they will be another shady vendor pricing asics at the almost unprofitable price point and laughing all the way to the bank. Greed is a powerful force and so far few, if any, asic vendors seem resistant to it.