[confirmed] SCAMMER: user Leon

[haploid23]

SCAM ALERT


his personal info




name:
Christopher M Phillips

phone:
(705) 242-2212

address:
16107 Green Cove Blvd
Clermont, FL 34714

5512 Cape Hatteras Dr
Clermont FL 34711

511 Chateau Dr SE
Rome, GA 30161

user names:

• Icy-
• Leon
• Chris8Lunch

email:

• chris8lunch@yahoo.com
• chris8lunch@hotmail.com

dwolla ID# 812-454-0051
mtgox account ID: thecokeguy

comments:

• scammed many people through webhosting
• scammed 8 people confirmed peopl (maybe more) on bitcoinforum
• banned as scammer on talkgold.com
• arrested for narcotics possession and/or usage

references:
http://www.talkgold.com/forum/member.php?u=16874
http://www.myspace.com/icybluehell
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=20533
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Christopher-M-Phillips/Rome-GA/4i986f1
http://florida.arrests.org/Arrests/Christopher_Phillips_5464490/


consolidated EVIDENCE

people he scammed:

me (reference to this whole thread, as well as our PMs)
grommit1977 (one HD5830, link)
Sannyasi (one HD5830, link)
BitCoinWebHost (link)
Trini8ed (one HD6990, link)
d.james (told me via PM)
IlbiStarz (via PM)
cam02003 (via PM)

promised to ship one card, never did:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29636.msg372111#msg372111

promised to refund, never did:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29636.msg372143#msg372143

provided fake tracking number:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29636.msg381170#msg381170

attempted to change his user name after he scammed:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/811/sellthread2.png/

could not provide proof he ever owned the item.

multiple sell threads under different forum accounts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19643.0
https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29167.0
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29635.0

more red flags about him HERE.

private convo messages i had with him
i'm the one that bought the two 6990, here is the convo in our PMs, but i forgot to save a few of them. this may be entertaining for some, boring for others, but i'll let the PM's tell the story. red is me, blue is him:

Yes it is $410 for each 6990 and $90 for each 5830. 3 day shipping is included free (UPS) as well as one extender cable per card.

You can send payment to -- 12C3Pfudc21RDUxfc2K1EvnKNe9Lmnsmzm

Once sent, reply to this message with your name and the address that they need to be sent to.

Remember these are all opened and USED but are in orginal condition and unstressed. (I didn't flash ANY of them)

I can accept Dwolla you can send to dwolla account number 812-454-0051

I'm not sure if I could reserve the card as others have shown interest in buying, how much time would you need before you would be able to purchase it?

I meant when would you be able to send payment for the 2nd card that you want me to reserve so I know how long I would have to reserve it for you.. Others are PMing me about them as well.

hey chris, i sent payment for both 6990s already, one from BTC (28.62) and the other from dwolla. can you confirm that you got both already? when i checked the BTC values, i sent it with the assumption it was still $14.33/BTC, but it turns out it went down, so i'll send you a little more. let me know that you got the previous ones first and i'll send the extra 1.25BTC

Yeah I saw that, and thanks the rates did go down a bit.

Sorry I took awhile to reply, this forum have a limit of 10 messages per hour, and I went past that limit so I had to wait.

DWOLLA payment won't clear until Tuesday it says.. I'm guessing because its coming out of your bank.

hello?

oh, yeah the dwolla is coming straight from my bank because i don't keep that much sitting in my dwolla account. would you still be able to ship out soon before dwolla clears? i'll ensure you that it'll clear, and i can provide some heatware or ebay feedback for more credibility if you need it. if not, then are you at least able to ship the first 6990 (payed with BTC) like tomorrow or something? here's the shipping address:

XXX XXXX
XXXX XXXXXXX
Oceanside, CA 92058

Yeah I can ship the first one out no problem, once dwolla clears I'll ship that one.

Were you still interested in the 5830s? Two others may end up buying them later today.

me: *something along the lines of* ya i'm interested in the 5830's also, but let me see if i have enough funds for those also. i'll get back to you in a few hours on these ones

Alright no problem.

Thanks for buying.  

Hey when did you plan on sending that 1.25 BTC? I still haven't gotten it.

me: *something along the lines of* oh ya, forgot about that. actually, i'll send you an additional 2 BTC once i get shipping confirmation of the first 6990

Thats fine I guess. I can't send it out until Monday since UPS isn't open SAT-SUN.

really? UPS stores are open on saturdays, but close a little earlier than weekdays, and some are even open on sundays. do you think you'll be able to pack today and send it out tomorrow morning? maybe USPS would be ok also?

UPS stores vary, I've never sent a package on the weekend but I'll call in and check tomorrow. It would really just be better to wait for the other payment to clear and send them together, it probably will clear Monday otherwise I have to spend more money for shipping.

me: *something along the lines of* i'm just a little worried because a lot of money is on the line and we're both new members here. what area are you from anyways?

I'm from cedartown, ga.

I understand your worry, I would be too but I can assure you I've got no reason to scam someone out of graphics cards, I have no use for them anymore and am happy to get rid of them as fast as I did.

I tried to find my old ebay account but I couldn't, but regardless you have nothing to worry about. I'm trying to build a good rep on this forum so that my webhost I'm opening in a couple weeks becomes a good success with the good feedback I get on this forum.

hmm it seems all the UPS stores are open on saturdays, but only some are open sundays based on the store locator online at UPS.com. so if you can send me a tracking number for the first 6990 tomorrow morning, i will send you another 2 BTC.

and if it's not too much trouble, can you take a quick picture of the video cards you're selling with your "Leon" forum ID on a piece of paper next to the video cards? many forums implement this when trying to sell something, while other forums only implement this for high priced items. if you could do this with a camera or cell phone, i'd greatly appreciate the reassurance.

i don't wanna feel like i'm rushing you, but are you able to get those pictures and/or shipping confirmation tomorrow (saturday) morning? i can send you the extra BTCs on top of everything like i said

hey i'm getting a little worried since you have not responded. can you please let me know what's going on with the shipping?

Sorry I haven't been able to get back to you sooner. I was never even planning on sending any of the graphic cards out this weekend regardless of if UPS is open or not on the weekends because I have a lot to do, and won't have any free time really at all today or tomorrow. College takes up most of my time and then I still have things to do to prepare for NY.

I also was selling these two graphic cards together only as stated in the post, so I need to at least wait until your payment from Dwolla clears which will most likely be Monday anyway. I don't understand what your worried about, you've already sent the money and if I wanted to scam you it would have been done now..?

Don't worry your going to get what you paid for!

i'm worried because it's a lot of money on the line, and also because you changed your shipping plans, and lastly because you still have no provided any proof of references or that you even have the items.

at first, you said "Yeah I can ship the first one out no problem, once dwolla clears I'll ship that one." then i asked if you can ship it saturday morning, and you said UPS isn't open on saturdays or sundays, which i showed you that it was in fact open. you said you would call in and check today, but why call in when you weren't going to send it today like you just said? then now you're saying that you're shipping them together, but only after my second payment clears, even after i offered to send more BTC to ship one sooner because money for the first one already cleared. why did you first say you can ship the first one no problem then?

and what about my request to prove that you have the 2x 6990 and 5x 5830 you were selling? i'd be fine if you shipped the two 6990 later on monday or tuesday, but only IF in the meantime you can provide a picture of all the video cards together with your "Leon" name written on a piece in that picture. most computer forums require some kind of proof like this when selling stuff. so if you're not going to ship the first 6990, then can you at least show me you have these items? a camera, cell phone, or even cheap webcam picture would be fine.

and lastly, can i request to change payment of BTC to dwolla payment? mainly because i'm expecting BTC value price to rise after july 27th when mtgox will implement the 0.3% transaction fee again, so i need those BTC i sent to you to invest in this. when i get the 28.62 BTC refunded back, i will pay you the second $410 from my dwolla account again, for a total of two separate transactions of $410 from dwolla. besides, current BTC value as i type this is only $13.75/BTC, so $410 from the second dwolla payment would be more for you anyways. if you can fulfill this change of payment request, then i'll know you're serious about this and not out to scam me, which i'll have no problem with you shipping both 6990 on tuesday.

I think your really overthinking things. My orginal plan was to ALWAYS ship everything out Monday, as I am very busy over the weekends and was sure UPS wasn't even open weekends in the first place. Even being opened on the weekends I was still very unlikely to ship them. Even if I shipped them this weekend you still have no proof I did, sure I get a tracking number but tracking numbers don't even show up in the UPS database until the package actually starts moving somewhere which wouldn't be until after Monday -- so really it makes little difference at all.

As for proof, I don't own a camera, and the one on my phone shows everything fuzzy/in a blur.

Frankly, I'm getting quite annoyed with all your shuffling around and demands, one can only be polite for so long. Asking me to hold the second 6990, sending one payment in BTC and the other in UNCLEARED dwolla, now requesting a refund of the BTC, and to send another unclear payment in Dwolla. -- So no I have to deny your request for obvious reasons.

I'm starting to get a feeling your dwolla transaction won't even clear with how hostile your starting to become towards me, for this fact I will be shipping the items together once it clears. As the thread stated they were to be sold TOGETHER and not seperate.

If you had trust issues you shouldn't have dealt with me in the first place, everything your doing doesn't make much sense, at least in the order your trying to do things anyway. Providing "proof" doesn't help you now or in the future.

Please do not give me more of a headace by trying to overcomplicate things further, whats done is done and you will get what you paid for, just stop worrying so much.


Thanks.

Chris

i'm not overthinking or overcomplicating anything, all i need is some kind of reassurance, which you haven't provided any so far other than asking me to trust words from a complete stranger.

me requesting you to hold the second 6990 was so that i can log into my bank account to verify i have enough funds, and also log into my dwolla account to actually send the money. you held the 6990 for me for a total of 5 minutes. so what is the obvious reason for you to deny my request of the BTC refund and take the second dwolla payment instead?  refunding the BTC takes 2-3 clicks away, faster than any online or store refund. that's not a hard request at all. and i've been honest and quick about payments so far, so you'll know i'll send the second dwolla payment instantly right after i get the BTC refund.

you have over thousands of dollars with in computer hardware, it's hard for me to believe you don't have a camera. blurry cell phone picture is fine, please take the picture anyways and send it. this is not a hard request, it's just a simple picture.

UPS does ship on saturdays, i've gotten packages from newegg.com for saturday deliveries by UPS before. it does matter to me that you give me the UPS tracking number because even if it doesn't show up instantly on their system, at least i still have the tracking number which can be updated later. can you explain why you said you have no problem shipping one of the 6990 first (since payment already cleared) and the other one on monday/tuesday after the second payment clears? and why did you say you'd call UPS today when that won't even matter? yes they were sold together and that's why i bought both, but you yourself said you had no problem shipping one first, and i even offered you extra money to do that. if you weren't going to ship out during the weekend, you should have been straight forward with me in the first place instead of changing your story.

my so called "demands" are very reasonable, they're just simple request that you actually have the item and all you have to do is have the picutre and ONE of these: tracking number for the first 6990, or a refund of BTC so i can pay with dwolla instead (which you can ship out when BOTH payments are cleared on monday/tuesday). you said you understood why i was worried and you would be too if you were the buyer. really, if this is giving us both headaches, then just please refund everything. if not, then do one of the simple things i asked, otherwise i have reason to believe nothing will actually be shipped when all payments are cleared and you'll just run with my $820.

can you please provide the picture and one of the other request with the next few hours? otherwise i'll try to cancel the payment for the second 6990 that hasn't cleared yet either through dwolla or my bank. if that's the case, then you can send just one of the 6990 that already cleared, but if you don't want to sell only one, then just refund everything to me and you won't need to ship anything.

You still dont even understand how hard and complicated your making things. I dont tqke pictures ever, i have no need for a camera. For me to return the btc i would need to go through mtgox again since they are in $ form now, which im not going to do. Plus im on my phone im not available to meet your demands. Also your payment isnt cleared, therefor im still technically reserving the 6990 because there is no guarentee your payment will clear. Im risking losing a sale on your behalf to trust that you have that money to spend.

Nothing is changing and this will be the last response i give you until the cards ship.

again, the things i've requested is NOT that hard, and it's only to prove you actually have the items and will ship, and yet you still can not provide anything. if you already converted by BTC to dollars, then simply convert it back to BTC and refund it to me. and please don't act like it's too hard to convert it back to BTC, because if you're able to convert to dollars, you can convert it back to BTC after a few clicks.

here is something you absolutely cannot run away from: you obviously have a computer to be sending private messages back and forth like this, so take a screenshot of the newegg.com invoice (or where ever you bought your 2x 6900 and 5x 5830) and blank out all personal information except your name. also take a screenshot of the transaction details on mtgox.com showing the time/date that you converted all the BTC i sent you into dollars. and one last screenshot of the bitcoin client application to show you received and sent all the BTC i payed you to mtxgox. these screenshots do not require any type of camera, but they do require a computer and keyboard which you obviously have. here is a screenshot of my bitcoin client showing the time, wallet address, and amount that i sent to you:



a refusal of these screenshots means you don't actually have these items, and that you're lying about the whole mtgox conversions. so in summary, you're not able to take a picture of the items you supposedly have, won't refund anything, and won't provide any type of shipping confirmations. i'm not going to sit here and just wait for my payment from dwolla/bank to clear so you can run off with everything. no more excuses or stalling man, because the next one will have me calling my bank and/or dwolla to cancel the transaction for the 2nd 6990 before it will clear. by the way, what's your phone number so we can talk about this in person?

Of course i have a computer but like i said im on my phone and i wont be home until later. Your trying to waste even more of my time with pointless screen shots but your right i can easily do this for you and will once i get home.

Your hostility towards me makes me think you never had funds for dwolla to clear in the first place, you started off wanting me to ship both items before your dwolla would clear which is another sign im wary of.

What makes no sense like i said before is that your asking for this information after sending half the payment, you should have requested this info before sending because any sort of proof to be shown now is really pointless, and all youve done is got me very heated and very skeptical about your dwolla payment. I was going to be willing to send monday but now youve lost my trust so ill be waiting for dwolla to cleqr, which will most likely be monday anyway.

You also didnt even send full payment in btc which you said you would once i respond to a pm and i did, then you demanded i ship it first before you send more btc to complete the payment. Thats yet another thing that has me angry and very skeptical. Im already selling these cards at a very good rate.

I will be home in around 6 hours and will have those screen shots you requested for to humor you. I still see this as a waste of time but if it will make you happy then ive got no problem doing this.

oh so you're still on the phone for the past 2 hours still? you obviously have a phone number, what is it? it's about 7pm PST here, and bout 10pm there in georgia. you said you'll be home in 6 hours, which will be 4am there. that's too long.

regardless, you don't need to be home to provide all the screenshots because you have some type of computer with you, a keyboard, and access to the internet, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to send me all these messages. please no more "im on the phone" excuses because you're still capable of responding for the past few messages. internet will allow you to log in mtgox to convert the BTC to dollars again, and take screenshots of all the invoice receipts, so you do NOT need to be home for this. just do it right now. and what makes you keep thinking the transaction i already initiated won't clear? these screenshots are not pointless, they show everything, which i have nothing to hide. here is the transaction details from dwolla, and also how much i have in the bank. the money WILL clear if you can provide proof of ownership of these items.





no screenshots of invoice receipts and mtgox transactions details and i'll be canceling the transaction. i already said that i was going to send an extra 2 BTC on top of everything else once you gave me shipping confirmation, and you were ok with that. now you're changing your shipping story. i'm going to wait one last hour, and i'll be making some calls to my bank/dwolla.

You really should worry about threatening someone and making false statements about them when they have $410 and already annoyed of your demands. Im not home and not near a computer, its as simple as that. If you cant wait until i get home that really isnt my problem. Everytime i try to cooperate with you, you make other demands and insult me with your crap.

I said i would take these screen shots for you when i get home. Even if i had access to another computer i dont have access to my bitcoin client.

Infact while your waiting why dont you lookup my bitcoin transactions yourself? You can google my bitcoin address and it should take you to block explorer with all of my transactions. Look for yours then another one after that, youll find i sent over 90% of the btc you sent me to mtgox.

The money is also already in my dwolla account pending transfer to my bank which id be happy to show those screen shots as well, so again nothing i can do here.

Your causing me wayy too much trouble just because i wasnt available to shit saturday. Waiting monday doesnt change anything.

I hope my btc proof of transaction will satisfy you until i get home to take more screen shots. Its more than enough proof to show you i havent lied about that transaction.

I keep forgetting to respond to your phone request, and im denying that request. I dont need some guy raging at me for nothing when youve been nothing but reckless towards me with your rudeness and demands.

Double check your messages. I sent two, my phone might have failed to submit.

To sum it up im not the one changing stories, you are. No way in hell am i going to refund you for wasting all this time and a headac. You asked for screen shots i said i would provide them when i get home. Then you make more demands wanting it NOW. Sorry but my time doesnt revolve around you.

To satisfy one of your demands you dont even need a screen shot of my bitcoin client or mtgox. I will still provide those when i get home but why dont you just use block explorer to lookup my address for hard proof i wasnt lying?

Stop threatening me and making false statements.

I sent yet another message before this one, so make sure you didn't miss that and double check for the message I sent you before the one declining your request to talk over the phone.

I got home sooner than I thought, here are your screen shots.

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/560/72987457.gif
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6104/67657799.gif
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/433/42276283.gif

Also for hard proof of all my BTC transactions you can use blockexplorer like I mentioned in a previous response.

http://blockexplorer.com/address/12C3Pfudc21RDUxfc2K1EvnKNe9Lmnsmzm

thanks for the screenshots. you've successfully shown me that you're able to take half my money already and not refund it. now where is ANY proof that you actually own the video cards? like a screenshot of the invoice of all these video cards you own? like i said, i'm not going to sit here and wait while my other $410 clears so you can run with it too without any proof you have those video cards in your possession. so now 2 options, pick whichever is more convenient for you:

1) i still want a refund for the money that already cleared, and since you already withdrew it into your dwolla/bank, then you can pay me back the refund with dwolla payment instead of BTC, and i'll let you keep $30 for your hassle.

2) you still ship the two 6990 SEPARATELY, and i'll cover all shipping fees for both packages. so it'll be $410 + whatever shipping costs for each one. that means the first one will go out monday no matter what since you already have that money, and second one goes out tuesday when dwolla payment clears

seriously though, thanks for the screenshots.

Now i know for sure you were trying to scam me your dwolla would never clear would it? Because everytime i give you proof of what you ask for you demand something else

Im in no way in hell refunding you but you can have your one card you paid for.

Thanks for the wasted time

are you fukin serious? don't even try to turn this around on me. i just showed you the pending money sent in dwolla to your account, and also how much i had in my bank, why would it not clear?? and if it doesn't clear, you just don't ship, how the hell am i out to scam you when i'm the buyer?! EVERYTIME you give me proof?? the ONLY time you gave me proof was you last PM, which just shows screenshots of you receiving my bitcoins, converting it to dollars, and withdrawing it. so tell me... when is another time you've shown any kind of other proof? like maybe the most important ones, a picture of the actually item and the invoice that shows you bought them.

pretty clear you already got money for one of the 6990, no proof you own ANY of the things you're selling. so where are those screenshots and pictures? where are your old references of past transactions? and i just have a feeling you're going to beat around the bush to stall longer.

tell me why it's so difficult to just refund me the money i already payed for? no way in hell you're going to refund, but why again?? what do you lose out of it? i already said you can keep $30 for the trouble. unless if you refund me, i'm somehow going to "scam" you and the non-existent video card magically appears on my desk.

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[Leon]

I'm pretty sure this guy was trying to scam me for two cards, who sends two different payments, one with BTC and one with UNCLEARED dwolla then expects me to send them both in before the other clears?

He also leaves out lots of the recent messages that we have gone back and fourth. Frankly this guy is a huge pain in my ass and shouldn't ever be dealt with by anyone.

What kind of person  demands proof and screen shots AFTER sending money, he is an outright mess and has no idea what he is talking about.

[haploid23]

ok you want to work this out publicly? that's even better. no more PM's anything you have to say just do it in the open. i did not leave out anything, but if i did, please fill in the quotes. i did mention that i forgot to save some of the PMs, so instead i wrote in there "something along the lines of". now please reply to my last PM here.

[Leon]

ok you want to work this out publicly? that's even better. no more PM's anything you have to say just do it in the open. i did not leave out anything, but if i did, please fill in the quotes. i did mention that i forgot to save some of the PMs, so instead i wrote in there "something along the lines of". now please reply to my last PM here.

I'm done playing games with you, you know what the hell you left out and I'm done dealing with you period.

Its obvious you tried to scam me out of two cards, then tried to hide that when I said I wanted to wait for your dwolla to clear. Good luck to you.

[haploid23]

Now your really starting to piss me off, you not only lost me potential sales for one of my 6990, but now your going to cause more potential sale loss for me by trying to claim I'm a scammer.

Unless you remove your thread and posts from my thread, you won't be getting your card and I'll be keeping your BTC as a fee for lost sales and damaging my rep WHEN I HAVE YET TO EVEN SCAM YOU.

Its pretty fucking clear that YOU were trying to scam me out of two cards. This in final, I'm blocking you after this, its up to you on what you want to do. You'll get your card under these terms, you'll also get your second card if dwolla transaction happens to clear, but lets face it, we both know it was NEVER going to clear from the very start.

Thanks for being a royal pain in my ass.

Chris

i thought everything was to be public now? if you want me to delete this thread, then ship me the first 6990 i already paid for. how are you going to lose a potential buyer for the second 6990? i already initiated the $410 dwolla transaction for the second 6990. if you were an honest person, then you have nothing to worry about, and you'll get your 5830 sold in no time from your other thread. please keep everything public now, no more PMs

[rethaw]

I knew $410 was too good to be true...

[Leon]

Now your really starting to piss me off, you not only lost me potential sales for one of my 6990, but now your going to cause more potential sale loss for me by trying to claim I'm a scammer.

Unless you remove your thread and posts from my thread, you won't be getting your card and I'll be keeping your BTC as a fee for lost sales and damaging my rep WHEN I HAVE YET TO EVEN SCAM YOU.

Its pretty fucking clear that YOU were trying to scam me out of two cards. This in final, I'm blocking you after this, its up to you on what you want to do. You'll get your card under these terms, you'll also get your second card if dwolla transaction happens to clear, but lets face it, we both know it was NEVER going to clear from the very start.

Thanks for being a royal pain in my ass.

Chris

i thought everything was to be public now? if you want me to delete this thread, then ship me the first 6990 i already paid for. how are you going to lose a potential buyer for the second 6990? i already initiated the $410 dwolla transaction for the second 6990. if you were an honest person, then you have nothing to worry about, and you'll get your 5830 sold in no time from your other thread. please keep everything public now, no more PMs

Your obviously stupid, I had turned down SEVERAL buyers after you.

[kookiekrak]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

[Leon]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

[kookiekrak]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

IF HE SENT you money already, either REFUND HIM, or send him the damn card.

or else you're TAKING his money and scamming him.

[Leon]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

IF HE SENT you money already, either REFUND HIM, or send him the damn card.

or else you're TAKING his money and scamming him.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

He put this up when I've yet to "scam" him, so once its taken down he will get his card. Otherwise it will sit and collect dust. Its his problem, not mine.

[kookiekrak]

.. holy shit i hate retards.


regardless of your terms. you're taking and keeping his money and not giving him the card.


THATS SCAMMING DUMB FUCK.

[Leon]

.. holy shit i hate retards.


regardless of your terms. you're taking and keeping his money and not giving him the card.


THATS SCAMMING DUMB FUCK.

Holy shit you must hate yourself then.

Before posting this thread--that damages sales and my rep--he was getting his card.

All he has to do is take it down and he gets his card, simple as that. Otherwise hes shit out of luck, like I said I'm not letting him push me around anymore.

You obviously haven't even read half the convo he posted.

[MiningBuddy]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

IF HE SENT you money already, either REFUND HIM, or send him the damn card.

or else you're TAKING his money and scamming him.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

He put this up when I've yet to "scam" him, so once its taken down he will get his card. Otherwise it will sit and collect dust. Its his problem, not mine.

As much of an obnoxious ass haploid23 has portrayed himself to be so far, you (leon) are seriously not doing yourself any favours in this situation with bullish comments like the above which will only consequently result in haploid23's claim of you being a scammer true.

[Leon]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

IF HE SENT you money already, either REFUND HIM, or send him the damn card.

or else you're TAKING his money and scamming him.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

He put this up when I've yet to "scam" him, so once its taken down he will get his card. Otherwise it will sit and collect dust. Its his problem, not mine.

As much of an obnoxious ass haploid23 has portrayed himself to be so far, you (leon) are seriously not doing yourself any favours in this situation with bullish comments like the above which will only consequently result in haploid23's claim of you being a scammer true.

He can't claim I'm a scammer when I've yet to scam him, its a easy request to make. I have other items to get rid of and hes stalking me giving me a bad rep.

I don't like being callede and scammer getting multiple threats demands and then have this shit posted.

[error]

.. holy shit i hate retards.


regardless of your terms. you're taking and keeping his money and not giving him the card.


THATS SCAMMING DUMB FUCK.

Holy shit you must hate yourself then.

Before posting this thread--that damages sales and my rep--he was getting his card.

All he has to do is take it down and he gets his card, simple as that. Otherwise hes shit out of luck, like I said I'm not letting him push me around anymore.

You obviously haven't even read half the convo he posted.

So you're saying you are not going to ship the card he paid for?

[Leon]

.. holy shit i hate retards.


regardless of your terms. you're taking and keeping his money and not giving him the card.


THATS SCAMMING DUMB FUCK.

Holy shit you must hate yourself then.

Before posting this thread--that damages sales and my rep--he was getting his card.

All he has to do is take it down and he gets his card, simple as that. Otherwise hes shit out of luck, like I said I'm not letting him push me around anymore.

You obviously haven't even read half the convo he posted.

So you're saying you are not going to ship the card he paid for?

I was always going to ship the card he paid for, even though the orginal agreement was for both of them to be bought together, which I posted in the thread, and another note is you notice he didn't even fully pay for it yet. Then he goes and posts this that can hurt my rep, so I demand he takes it down otherwise he won't get the card until he does.

With all the crap and headac he gave me I don't see how that is unfair.

[enmaku]

People HAVE been marked as scammers for publicly refusing to fulfill their end of a bargain in exactly such a manner (see: bitmole).

Regardless of what this guy may have said or done if he paid you you are legally obligated to either ship him what he HAS paid for or return his funds. If you think this has damaged your reputation in a manner that has any fiscal value then you can certainly take it up in a court of law like anyone else who is defamed/slandered, but it has no bearing whatsoever on the transaction itself.

[haploid23]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

[Maged]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

Leon is under no obligation to do either of these things, based on the original agreement. I suggest that you make that requirement clear next time that you buy something.

[Leon]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

I give up, you'll get your refund. I do what you ask with screen shots and whatever, then you just demand something further. Next time ask for this stuff BEFORE SENDING SOMEONE MONEY. I did all this for you, not me, I didn't have to do any of that and could just fuck you over big time.


As stated and proved, I already converted your BTC to USD to dwolla and submitted the money to my bank. The estimated clear date for that is the 19th, then I have to transsfer it back to DWOLLA back to MTGOX and then back to BTC. Ha and you say any of your requests don't cause me trouble.

I'm taking out $30 fee that you offered for the "troubles".

Thanks for the wasted time, the headacs, lost sales, the never ending demands, the threats, and the hurt reputation.

Good night.

[Leon]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

Leon is under no obligation to do either of these things, based on the original agreement. I suggest that you make that requirement clear next time that you buy something.

I'm sure glad someone here has a brain, I was starting to feel alone.

[Trini8ed]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

I give up, you'll get your refund. I do what you ask with screen shots and whatever, then you just demand something further. Next time ask for this stuff BEFORE SENDING SOMEONE MONEY. I did all this for you, not me, I didn't have to do any of that and could just fuck you over big time.


As stated and proved, I already converted your BTC to USD to dwolla and submitted the money to my bank. The estimated clear date for that is the 19th, then I have to transsfer it back to DWOLLA back to MTGOX and then back to BTC. Ha and you say any of your requests don't cause me trouble.

I'm taking out $30 fee that you offered for the "troubles".

Thanks for the wasted time, the headacs, lost sales, the never ending demands, the threats, and the hurt reputation.

Good night.

Look from what I see is why does he have to send you an invoice why can't he just send you the card instead of fucking taking pics. Also leon you can't just not ship a card after someone pays for it, over a thread... Its like renting a car form someone and using it for 6 months and not paying them for the time you used it because they didn't follow there agreement just ship him the card and when this is over the thread will be gone don't worry about it ^_^

[Leon]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

I give up, you'll get your refund. I do what you ask with screen shots and whatever, then you just demand something further. Next time ask for this stuff BEFORE SENDING SOMEONE MONEY. I did all this for you, not me, I didn't have to do any of that and could just fuck you over big time.


As stated and proved, I already converted your BTC to USD to dwolla and submitted the money to my bank. The estimated clear date for that is the 19th, then I have to transsfer it back to DWOLLA back to MTGOX and then back to BTC. Ha and you say any of your requests don't cause me trouble.

I'm taking out $30 fee that you offered for the "troubles".

Thanks for the wasted time, the headacs, lost sales, the never ending demands, the threats, and the hurt reputation.

Good night.

Look from what I see is why does he have to send you an invoice why can't he just send you the card instead of fucking taking pics. Also leon you can't just not ship a card after someone pays for it, over a thread... Its like renting a car form someone and using it for 6 months and not paying them for the time you used it because they didn't follow there agreement just ship him the card and when this is over the thread will be gone don't worry about it ^_^

No he is getting a refund, I'm done with him.

[Maged]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

Leon is under no obligation to do either of these things, based on the original agreement. I suggest that you make that requirement clear next time that you buy something.

I'm sure glad someone here has a brain, I was starting to feel alone.

No problem. Just remember that if haploid23 comes back here crying that the fee is unreasonable, that your original agreement still stands until you both agree on something else. Don't refund anything until haploid23 agrees to the fees you impose.

Edit: Bleh, didn't notice that haploid23 already agreed to the $30 fee. So the new refund agreement is now the standing contract.

[Trini8ed]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

I give up, you'll get your refund. I do what you ask with screen shots and whatever, then you just demand something further. Next time ask for this stuff BEFORE SENDING SOMEONE MONEY. I did all this for you, not me, I didn't have to do any of that and could just fuck you over big time.


As stated and proved, I already converted your BTC to USD to dwolla and submitted the money to my bank. The estimated clear date for that is the 19th, then I have to transsfer it back to DWOLLA back to MTGOX and then back to BTC. Ha and you say any of your requests don't cause me trouble.

I'm taking out $30 fee that you offered for the "troubles".

Thanks for the wasted time, the headacs, lost sales, the never ending demands, the threats, and the hurt reputation.

Good night.

Look from what I see is why does he have to send you an invoice why can't he just send you the card instead of fucking taking pics. Also leon you can't just not ship a card after someone pays for it, over a thread... Its like renting a car form someone and using it for 6 months and not paying them for the time you used it because they didn't follow there agreement just ship him the card and when this is over the thread will be gone don't worry about it ^_^

No he is getting a refund, I'm done with him.

That's fine to so what payments did he send you it looks like he sent 410 and 28 btc? or did he just pay for that 1 card?

[Leon]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

I give up, you'll get your refund. I do what you ask with screen shots and whatever, then you just demand something further. Next time ask for this stuff BEFORE SENDING SOMEONE MONEY. I did all this for you, not me, I didn't have to do any of that and could just fuck you over big time.


As stated and proved, I already converted your BTC to USD to dwolla and submitted the money to my bank. The estimated clear date for that is the 19th, then I have to transsfer it back to DWOLLA back to MTGOX and then back to BTC. Ha and you say any of your requests don't cause me trouble.

I'm taking out $30 fee that you offered for the "troubles".

Thanks for the wasted time, the headacs, lost sales, the never ending demands, the threats, and the hurt reputation.

Good night.

Look from what I see is why does he have to send you an invoice why can't he just send you the card instead of fucking taking pics. Also leon you can't just not ship a card after someone pays for it, over a thread... Its like renting a car form someone and using it for 6 months and not paying them for the time you used it because they didn't follow there agreement just ship him the card and when this is over the thread will be gone don't worry about it ^_^

No he is getting a refund, I'm done with him.

That's fine to so what payments did he send you it looks like he sent 410 and 28 btc? or did he just pay for that 1 card?

He sent me BTC and was short over one BTC and has yet to pay me that. Then he sent me $410 in DWOLLA but it is currently UNCLEARED--yet he wanted me to send both cards.

Now he is just getting a refund with a $30 fee for the trouble and bs he caused me.

[Trini8ed]

just ship one damn card that he paid for with btc. else you're gonna get marked as a scammer.

I gave him my terms and threats just as he did to me constantly, I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

Its already clear he was the one trying to scam me for two cards.

basically your terms are for me to take down this thread i started, otherwise you won't send the cards you never even had? why take it down? so you can scam others that don't know yet? my terms are SIMPLE:

1) just provide proof that you actually have the cards by your newegg invoice, or a picture of the cards with your name on a piece of paper. THAT'S IT. is that so hard just to ask? you haven't been able to provide this simple invoice screenshot, while you were still able to send me screenshots of you withdrawing my BTC. what's up with that?

2) if you can't provide proof, then simply refund me what i paid. THAT'S IT. simple terms, yet you were not able to do in our PMs. i even offered to let you keep $30 of the refund for troubles.

I give up, you'll get your refund. I do what you ask with screen shots and whatever, then you just demand something further. Next time ask for this stuff BEFORE SENDING SOMEONE MONEY. I did all this for you, not me, I didn't have to do any of that and could just fuck you over big time.


As stated and proved, I already converted your BTC to USD to dwolla and submitted the money to my bank. The estimated clear date for that is the 19th, then I have to transsfer it back to DWOLLA back to MTGOX and then back to BTC. Ha and you say any of your requests don't cause me trouble.

I'm taking out $30 fee that you offered for the "troubles".

Thanks for the wasted time, the headacs, lost sales, the never ending demands, the threats, and the hurt reputation.

Good night.

Look from what I see is why does he have to send you an invoice why can't he just send you the card instead of fucking taking pics. Also leon you can't just not ship a card after someone pays for it, over a thread... Its like renting a car form someone and using it for 6 months and not paying them for the time you used it because they didn't follow there agreement just ship him the card and when this is over the thread will be gone don't worry about it ^_^

No he is getting a refund, I'm done with him.

That's fine to so what payments did he send you it looks like he sent 410 and 28 btc? or did he just pay for that 1 card?

He sent me BTC and was short over one BTC and has yet to pay me that. Then he sent me $410 in DWOLLA but it is currently UNCLEARED--yet he wanted me to send both cards.

Now he is just getting a refund with a $30 fee for the trouble and bs he caused me.

Oh that makes sense seems fair.

[Leon]

Well like I said I'm going to bed, but I won't be suprised if I wake up to some more issues this guy has with me. 

[myrkul]

This is a fine example of why we need arbitration.

Had you guys had an intermediary, there would have been much less hassle on both sides.

[Jack of Diamonds]

I'm not going to be pushed around by him any longer and let him damage my rep.

my rep

you joined 4 days ago lol

Then again the buyer is shady as hell too, if the funds don't clear, I'd only send a card paid with BTC & refund or dispute the dwolla payment

[sc8nt4u]

I'm leaning towards Leon's side, but I'm gonna go grab some popcorn for this thread.

[haploid23]

I give up, you'll get your refund. I do what you ask with screen shots and whatever, then you just demand something further. Next time ask for this stuff BEFORE SENDING SOMEONE MONEY. I did all this for you, not me, I didn't have to do any of that and could just fuck you over big time.


As stated and proved, I already converted your BTC to USD to dwolla and submitted the money to my bank. The estimated clear date for that is the 19th, then I have to transsfer it back to DWOLLA back to MTGOX and then back to BTC. Ha and you say any of your requests don't cause me trouble.

I'm taking out $30 fee that you offered for the "troubles".

Thanks for the wasted time, the headacs, lost sales, the never ending demands, the threats, and the hurt reputation.

Good night.

well then it's settled. since you don't need my pending dwolla payment to clear, please cancel it from your account. as for the BTC i already paid, seems like it's a lot of hassle to convert it all back to BTC when money is already in your bank. can you just initiate the refund and send it by dwolla, which will withdraw straight from your bank? and you keep $30 of it like i offered. i will take down this thread when i get my refund

thanks

[shakaru]

User haploid23  added to no sale blacklist.

[swusc2]

Both of you are idiots.

Leon: for being intentionally non-transparent for some reason

haploid: for crying bloodly murder

It is good to know not to do business with either of you.

[Sannyasi]

he's gotten payment for all the cards as far as i know- i think if mr leon wanted to take the BTC and run there'd be no reason to defend himself since he's already gotten everyone's moneys =/.

[BitPorium]

very interesting. thankfully im paranoid.

[haploid23]

Both of you are idiots.

Leon: for being intentionally non-transparent for some reason

haploid: for crying bloodly murder

It is good to know not to do business with either of you.

if your $800+ is at a huge risk, let me see if you keep quiet about it

he's gotten payment for all the cards as far as i know- i think if mr leon wanted to take the BTC and run there'd be no reason to defend himself since he's already gotten everyone's moneys =/.

he actually only has my BTC so far, the dwolla has not cleared yet until monday/tuesday. he's defending himself or stall until the other half of my dwolla transaction clears before running. well he already agreed to refund me, but yet still has not cancelled the dwolla transaction, or let me know if he will pay my BTC back with a dwolla refund or trying to convert it to BTC again.

[haploid23]

*oops, double post*

[Leon]

Lol the demands from this guy never end even after agreeing to refund him, I'm not going to call your bank and cancel your pending payment, thats up to you. I don't even think I could stop it even if I wanted to, and I looked for an option on dwolla but I don't see one. If they have that option let me know exactly where to go, otherwise you need to call your bank.

As for the request to receive a refund in dwolla instead of BTC, that is fine by me.

[macharborguy]

Lol the demands from this guy never end even after agreeing to refund him, I'm not going to call your bank and cancel your pending payment, thats up to you. I don't even think I could stop it even if I wanted to, and I looked for an option on dwolla but I don't see one. If they have that option let me know exactly where to go, otherwise you need to call your bank.

As for the request to receive a refund in dwolla instead of BTC, that is fine by me.

agreeing to refund someone and ACTUALLY refunding them are two completely different things.

in all honesty, if you could have refunded his BitCoins as BitCoins, its so simple to do so and has plenty of community verification via Block Explorer, I don't see why you wouldn't have just for the sake taking the high ground.

Instead it became a public show.  I understand why Leon choose to come public after haploid brought this to the public eye, you didn't want to give any impression that you were scamming him.  Not coming public would have put a more negative light on you.  However, both of your attitudes overall in this whole mess harm BOTH of your reputations in the long wrong.

[Leon]

Lol the demands from this guy never end even after agreeing to refund him, I'm not going to call your bank and cancel your pending payment, thats up to you. I don't even think I could stop it even if I wanted to, and I looked for an option on dwolla but I don't see one. If they have that option let me know exactly where to go, otherwise you need to call your bank.

As for the request to receive a refund in dwolla instead of BTC, that is fine by me.

agreeing to refund someone and ACTUALLY refunding them are two completely different things.

in all honesty, if you could have refunded his BitCoins as BitCoins, its so simple to do so and has plenty of community verification via Block Explorer, I don't see why you wouldn't have just for the sake taking the high ground.

Instead it became a public show.  I understand why Leon choose to come public after haploid brought this to the public eye, you didn't want to give any impression that you were scamming him.  Not coming public would have put a more negative light on you.  However, both of your attitudes overall in this whole mess harm BOTH of your reputations in the long wrong.

Before making ignorant posts, please read everything that has been posted. You'll then see how stupid you look.

[macharborguy]

Attitude, plain and simple, even "idiots" can see good ones and bad ones.

[haploid23]

agreeing to refund someone and ACTUALLY refunding them are two completely different things.

in all honesty, if you could have refunded his BitCoins as BitCoins, its so simple to do so and has plenty of community verification via Block Explorer, I don't see why you wouldn't have just for the sake taking the high ground.

Instead it became a public show.  I understand why Leon choose to come public after haploid brought this to the public eye, you didn't want to give any impression that you were scamming him.  Not coming public would have put a more negative light on you.  However, both of your attitudes overall in this whole mess harm BOTH of your reputations in the long wrong.

it had to become public, otherwise i wouldn't have gotten my money back. he states in one of his last few PMs to me :"Im in no way in hell refunding you..."

Lol the demands from this guy never end even after agreeing to refund him, I'm not going to call your bank and cancel your pending payment, thats up to you. I don't even think I could stop it even if I wanted to, and I looked for an option on dwolla but I don't see one. If they have that option let me know exactly where to go, otherwise you need to call your bank.

As for the request to receive a refund in dwolla instead of BTC, that is fine by me.

thank you, but please actually follow through with the refund. BTC value was $13.73 when i sent the coins, so i sent total $392.95 worth of BTC. you keep $30 of it like i offered, so it's a refund of $362.95. i just sent that requst to you on dwolla. accept the request when you can, so we can just get this over with please.

[Raoul Duke]

I really need to speed up my Bitcoin ShitList website  

Both of you have a place in there by now 

[Trini8ed]

I really need to speed up my Bitcoin ShitList website  

Both of you have a place in there by now  

I don't think they should be blacklisted.

[Raoul Duke]

I really need to speed up my Bitcoin ShitList website  

Both of you have a place in there by now  

I don't think they should be blacklisted.

Ofcourse they won't be blacklisted, just Shitlisted lol

I should add that i'm not the one that will shitlist persons/business, it will be whoever has complaints.

[haploid23]

well then it's monday, and no tracking number or refund yet on the cleared payment. by the end of the day if me and the other member(s) that already paid for the stuff don't get confirmation like he said he would on monday, then it's pretty much confirmed. now i know his log in online status and posting habits, he was online almost EVERY hour from all of friday up until sunday noon, and it just so happens that after i sent the dwolla refund money request to his dwolla account, he never logged in to this forum again. i think he already fled with my money, but i'll just give him the benefit of the doubt and wait until the end of the day.

[Leon]

well then it's monday, and no tracking number or refund yet on the cleared payment. by the end of the day if me and the other member(s) that already paid for the stuff don't get confirmation like he said he would on monday, then it's pretty much confirmed. now i know his log in online status and posting habits, he was online almost EVERY hour from all of friday up until sunday noon, and it just so happens that after i sent the dwolla refund money request to his dwolla account, he never logged in to this forum again. i think he already fled with my money, but i'll just give him the benefit of the doubt and wait until the end of the day.

Do you just make up shit to make up shit? I think you do, for one your payment hasn't cleared, second I told you when you would get your refund I believe on page two.

[haploid23]

Do you just make up shit to make up shit? I think you do, for one your payment hasn't cleared, second I told you when you would get your refund I believe on page two.

you just contradicted yourself. if you're refunding me, why wait for my dwolla payment to clear? shouldn't it be you giving me back my first payment instead of waiting for my second payment to also be in your hands? now i already sent the money request on dwolla yesterday, all you had to do was press "accept", which you have yet to do. is there a reason why you haven't done it yet? because obviously you have the money available to refund, you just haven't done it yet.

[Leon]

Do you just make up shit to make up shit? I think you do, for one your payment hasn't cleared, second I told you when you would get your refund I believe on page two.

you just contradicted yourself. if you're refunding me, why wait for my dwolla payment to clear? shouldn't it be you giving me back my first payment instead of waiting for my second payment to also be in your hands? now i already sent the money request on dwolla yesterday, all you had to do was press "accept", which you have yet to do. is there a reason why you haven't done it yet? because obviously you have the money available to refund, you just haven't done it yet.

Good god how thick can this guy possibly be? I stated several times i already submitted the money to my bank account, which means i have $0 in my dwolla. Does that make any sense to you?

I'll accept the payment once i have money in my bank to do so. Not everyone has 2k sitting around, plus what if dwolla fails to transfer the money for some reason? Then i have to go through the trouble of trying to cancel a pending withdraw.

Your on my terms now. Im not taking anymore bs or demands from you.

[kgo]

Wasn't the whole reason the deal fell through in the first place because the buyer didn't actually have his money in dwolla yet?  Seems like he should know dwolla is really slow...

[error]

Wasn't the whole reason the deal fell through in the first place because the buyer didn't actually have his money in dwolla yet?  Seems like he should know dwolla is really slow...

Dwolla is instant. It's the bank that's slow.

[kgo]

Wasn't the whole reason the deal fell through in the first place because the buyer didn't actually have his money in dwolla yet?  Seems like he should know dwolla is really slow...

Dwolla is instant. It's the bank that's slow.

Right.  Intra-dwolla is fast.  It's just the ACH process is inherently slow.  I don't want to give dwolla a bad name.

But basically the guy who doesn't "keep much sitting in his dwolla account" is now mad that the other guy doesn't keep much sitting in dwolla..

[Tyson95]

A college student selling 6990's for half the market value with no pics and a lost ebay account seems legit.

[fitty]

A college student selling 6990's for half the market value with no pics and a lost ebay account seems legit.

lol

[Sannyasi]

leon just disappear today? paid for 5830 that was suppose to ship yesterday and haven't heard anything =/

[Maged]

NOW things are getting interesting!

[haploid23]

there are 5 confirmed people that has a simultaneous deal with Leon right now, maybe more, and no one has gotten anything or a refund yet. it's past 5pm CST already, and my payment he withdrew from dwolla already cleared in his bank. so either he should be me refunding very soon, or he's already run off with it.

NOW things are getting interesting!

see what happens when he's under no obligation to provide provide any proof like you mentioned earlier? it's not that he doesn't want to provide the proof, he CAN'T provide the proof. he easily provided screenshots of withdrawing my money, yet unable to take a screenshot of his newegg invoice of the items he supposedly owns.

[Trini8ed]

there are 5 confirmed people that has a simultaneous deal with Leon right now, maybe more, and no one has gotten anything or a refund yet. it's past 5pm CST already, and my payment he withdrew from dwolla already cleared in his bank. so either he should be me refunding very soon, or he's already run off with it.

NOW things are getting interesting!

see what happens when he's under no obligation to provide provide any proof like you mentioned earlier? it's not that he doesn't want to provide the proof, he CAN'T provide the proof. he easily provided screenshots of withdrawing my money, yet unable to take a screenshot of his newegg invoice of the items he supposedly owns.

Maybe you were right haploid sorry to go to his side...

[error]

I had a strong suspicion that this would go bad when Leon deleted his for-sale post. Scammers often do this to attempt to buy some time to get away with their scam.

[myrkul]

Guys, I've said it time and time again... you need reputable middle men!

Escrow, arbitration... these things are important.

[BitPorium]

He is seeming to be a scammer. He sent me a bogus ups tracking number. Thank god for chargebacks, why would a scammer accept something that can be easily charged back... Interesting

[Trini8ed]

He is seeming to be a scammer. He sent me a bogus ups tracking number. Thank god for chargebacks, why would a scammer accept something that can be easily charged back... Interesting

When you mean bogus you mean it has not received it ups or is not valid at all well fuck I'm out 410$ thank god i paid in dwolla fucking filing a dispute at the end of the week if I here nothing to be safe.

[Trini8ed]

Wait lets figure this out if you paid him 410$ for a 6990 PLEASE POST

Because if more then 2 people payed for 2 6990's that means this was definably bogus bullshit

So I'm 1

[Maged]

Confirmed scammer:
http://www.talkgold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99331

Looks like he has a gambling problem, too. Now I feel stupid for not Googling this earlier, sorry guys.

[Sannyasi]

7BTC for a 5830- first upgrade i was going to get for mining.... or not =/

[kgo]

Guys, I've said it time and time again... you need reputable middle men!

Escrow, arbitration... these things are important.

Should I shamelessly promote my bitcoin escrow site https://mybitsafe.com?  Nah, that wouldn't be appropriate.

[Trini8ed]

So me and bitcoinwebhost bought the 2 6990's did anyone else buy an non existent 6990 because he said he had 2 and if 3 people bought them its a total scam...

[BitPorium]

So me and bitcoinwebhost bought the 2 6990's did anyone else buy an non existent 6990 because he said he had 2 and if 3 people bought them its a total scam...

Alert Pay actually contacted me asking if i got the stuff because they had some feedback on the guy. Scammer! to bad we cant stop him! I guess, Make sure to only deal with trustworthy people. What an asshole!
visit My Site!. Shameless promo, but I wont steal from anyone!

[trentzb]

Sorry folks, I was only at 90% sure this was a scam when he first posted his for sale thread. I made an accusation via PM to a couple folks once this haploid23 thread started though. Good call haploid23, but sorry to hear this happened yet again. I would not be surprised if this is the same individual I have been tracking for a couple months now.

[Maged]

I also really apologize that I didn't Google his email right away. I did not thoroughly examine him, and that caused this thread to go the wrong way. I will not make that mistake again.

[myrkul]

I guess we can change it from (Possible) to [Confirmed] ?

[BitPorium]

I guess we can change it from (Possible) to [Confirmed] ?

+1

[haploid23]

I guess we can change it from (Possible) to [Confirmed] ?

done

[Trini8ed]

I guess we can change it from (Possible) to [Confirmed] ?

done

Sorry about thinking it was you he just said the right things that made us believe it was you and hoping dwolla gives me back my 331$

[gromit1977]

 

[Smalleyster]

So he's still not listed a a scammer?

Hope that gets updated soon.

[Trini8ed]

So he's still not listed a a scammer?

Hope that gets updated soon.

Anyone here do a dwolla dispute before how long do they usually take?

[haploid23]

Anyone here do a dwolla dispute before how long do they usually take?

i didn't exactly file a dispute, but i tried to have them stop my pending transaction before it clears into his account.

i tried calling on during the weekend, but they only work during normal business hours, so i left them a voicemail and also sent an email. then first thing monday, i woke up at 6am PST, which was right when they opened at 8am CST, to call them and let them know about this. basically dwolla can't just cancel the transaction that i already initiated, so the only option they gave me was to suspend my account. what this does it not allow any money going into or out of my dwolla account, but also the pending $410 will NOT go to the asshole scammer. it will still get withdrawn from my bank account, but it will go directly to dwolla instead, which then i'll need to file a dispute with my bank to get it back. but the most important thing is that it does not get sent to the asshole. basically i had my own dwolla account frozen and locked, i can't even log on for the time being. so much hassle  

what dwolla really needs to do is also lock the asshole's account so that he's not able to scam anyone else's money or withdraw that money into his bank account. is your dwolla payment sent directly from your bank account or did you already have money in dwolla to send? if you sent money from your dwolla to his dwolla, it's instant payment, which i'm pretty sure he already withdrew it into his bank account. if that's the case, i'm not sure you can just pull that money out from his bank account, into dwolla, then back into your dwolla. but if your money is still in his dwolla, then you can probably take it back after filing a dwolla dispute. that's why dwolla really needs to freeze his account too.

So he's still not listed a a scammer?

Hope that gets updated soon.

i already updated the title of the thread

[Duffman]

Should I shamelessly promote my bitcoin escrow site https://mybitsafe.com?

yes, you should.  and also, I think you should implement this:

What's with this bitcoin faucet crap? Why can't I get my money back if the seller rips me off?

...there are situations where specifying a different address may be appropriate. For example, the buyer and seller could agree that the funds go to an arbitrator who will listen to each person's side of the story. We are considering adding this feature.

[shakaru]

I never bought them but spoke to him about buy non existant cards. He did offer to trade me his two cards for 4 of my 5830s

[bitcoinTrader]

So the account freezing issues will come to dwolla too!

[gellimac]

Contact a moderator or an admin, they are able to see IP of members.

After that try to find him

[error]

Contact a moderator or an admin, they are able to see IP of members.

After that try to find him

I sure as hell don't see any IP addresses. You'll have to contact an administrator if you want that info.

[Maged]

Contact a moderator or an admin, they are able to see IP of members.

After that try to find him

Considering that part of the payment was Dwolla, we already know his name fairly accurately, assuming that it was actually connected to a bank account.

[Trini8ed]

Contact a moderator or an admin, they are able to see IP of members.

After that try to find him

Considering that part of the payment was Dwolla, we already know his name fairly accurately, assuming that it was actually connected to a bank account.

Its linked to his bank he took screenshots I think?

[Raoul Duke]

Bitcoin ShitList ? 

[Trini8ed]

Bitcoin ShitList ? 

He needs to more then just shit listed...

[Raoul Duke]

Bitcoin ShitList ?  

He needs to more then just shit listed...

Beaten? lol

OP, please write a shitlist report with all the personal data you have from Leon and send it to me by PM or using the email at the Bitcoin ShitList website and i'll make sure to speed things up so your shitlist will be the first one to be posted.
You will not get your money back by doing it, but you will probably be able to warn other potential victims about this scammer.
And believe me when i tell you that the website will have some pretty good google rankings after it goes live

[haploid23]

i will address all of these in my next post:

As much of an obnoxious ass haploid23 has portrayed himself to be so far...

Leon is under no obligation to do either of these things, based on the original agreement. I suggest that you make that requirement clear next time that you buy something.

No problem. Just remember that if haploid23 comes back here crying that the fee is unreasonable, that your original agreement still stands until you both agree on something else. Don't refund anything until haploid23 agrees to the fees you impose.

Edit: Bleh, didn't notice that haploid23 already agreed to the $30 fee. So the new refund agreement is now the standing contract.

Then again the buyer is shady as hell too, if the funds don't clear, I'd only send a card paid with BTC & refund or dispute the dwolla payment

User haploid23  added to no sale blacklist.

Both of you are idiots.

Leon: for being intentionally non-transparent for some reason
haploid: for crying bloodly murder

It is good to know not to do business with either of you.

I really need to speed up my Bitcoin ShitList website 

Both of you have a place in there by now 

I'm leaning towards Leon's side, but I'm gonna go grab some popcorn for this thread.

[haploid23]

this was written on sunday, but i chose not to publicly post it, until now:

for all those that side with Leon, did you bother reading all the PMs and looked at what was said privately before jumping to conclusions? how am i the shady one? am i suppose to just sit here and wait for the other half of my payment to clear so he can run with all of it? or can i ask questions after seeing a lot of red flags?

now i'll admit that i'm an idiot and didn't do a quick background check before sending payment. how about you consider these red flags about Leon:

• he joined the forum on july 12, and racked over 120 posts in two days, right before posting his sell thread. and of these 120 posts, most of them are within a few minutes of each other. seems like characteristics of spam posts to me for the purpose of building post count reputation
  

• he was marked and banned as a scammer on other forums (link), like other exchange or online money forums.

• attempted to change account name (link) when opening another sale thread after the first one after the deal with me started to get sour. why hide under a different user name?? not the smartest scammer in the world, at least change your avatar picture if you're going to try to be someone else

• after he already received payment for the 6990s from me, he marked them as SOLD, but only a few hours he completely took this "sold" status off so it's available again. why do this? so others can also pay for the same items that i alread paid for? when i saw this, i posted in his thread saying i already bought and paid for the 6990s, so that no one else falls for it and buys it too. that's also in hopes that if someone else also paid for them, they would come out and say something like "oh wait, but i though i already paid for them as well!". a day after all this, he just deleted the whole first post and replaced it with "sold".

• he supposedly sold all 5x 5830 and 2x 6990, how did he manage to get another 5 brand new 5830 to sell in a new thread? unless he doesn't have any of it and just trying to get as many people as possible to pay for non-existent items.

• he bought all these cards off newegg, so after i suspected something is wrong, i asked for pictures and/or a screenshot of the invoices (refer to the PMs). he could not provide any of these, but yet he was so readily to provide me screenshots (1, 2, 3 link) of him receiving my BTC and withdrawing it to his bank after converting it to dollars. no invoice or pictures because he never had the card to begin with? of course he was under no obligation to give these, but if this were me i would have no trouble to provide invoices or pictures.

• no prior references of past transactions. i asked for ebay, heatware, or anything else and he said he couldn't remember his ebay account. seriously??

• just look at the excuses and runaround he is giving me, refer back to the PMs that i publicly posted.  the things he’s said has no real content behind them, just see through it. he basically just says over and over that I demand things, and tries to turn it around to say I’m the scammer. please show me in the original PM how i can possibly be the scammer, or where my real demands were.

seriously, with all these flags, if you were in my shoes you would just sit back so 100% of the money will clear and he will just run with it? i just thought that someone with half a brain can connect all the dots, it’s pretty black and white. this is too much trouble for me, since i'm supposedly getting a refund and the two 6990s are now up for grabs, why don't someone else just buy it then? it's actually a great price at $410...

[myrkul]

Caveat emptor....

[Maged]

Why don't you sue him?

[myrkul]

Why don't you sue him?

Have to find him, first.

[BitPorium]

This entire thing has inspired me to work harder on my escrow script. I am really going to kick it into overdrive now. People like LEON(chris8lunch) give bitcoins a bad rap.

[feelz]

Escrow should be mandatory when large transaction are taken place.

[kgo]

Escrow should be mandatory when large transaction are taken place.

The nice thing about bitcoin is that nothing can really be mandatory, but yes escrow should be highly encouraged.

[Raoul Duke]

haploid23, all i can say is that I'm truly sorry about my snarky remark 
I recognize now who the scammer is. and i'm offering you my help in the only way i can.
Too bad that I can't solve completely your situation, but I can help you to maybe save the next person
from falling into such crap. Do good, and you will feel good.
It's impossible to save them all, because many, just like you did, jump on the bargains, only having seconds thoughts after thinking about it more clearly, but most times it's too late.

May this also be a lesson for those who like to impulse buy stuff... After all, more can happen than just you ending up buying something you don't need or like. 

Once again, i'm sorry about my comment, haploid23

[Smalleyster]

Biggest lesson in this thread;

If it's too good to be true, then it's too good to be true!

[Trini8ed]

Biggest lesson in this thread;

If it's too good to be true, then it's too good to be true!

+1

[Anonymous]

If he has a gambling problem and is scamming the bitcoin forums then its probably scabbers/stevenbuck who scammed you.

https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3492.0

[ataranlen]

I realized he was a scammer the moment he was extremely reluctant to use Escrow of any kind, and would consider other offers first. I warned one person, swusc2, and he said that Leon would consider local pickup AFTER other offers as well.

[dinker]

Possible other ID used by leon: same 6990 / 5830 scams in June.
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=20533
(Admin should be able to confirm by a simple IP check)

‘Icy-’ on bitcoin forums and twoplustwo.com forums
‘Chris8Lunch’ @yahoo.com @hotmail.com emails
‘Chris8lunch’ banned from talkgold.com forums for scamming
‘Chris Phillips’

Profiles:
http://www.talkgold.com/forum/member.php?u=16874
http://www.myspace.com/icybluehell
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=20533
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Christopher-M-Phillips/Rome-GA/4i986f1

Evidence:
SS from ‘icy-’
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4310/proofck.png

http://florida.arrests.org/Arrests/Christopher_Phillips_5464490/
looks like hes scamming to feed his drug habit

[WiseOldOwl]

I have a idea for a service that would be a arbitration platform / public contract. Those of you with the escrow sites are encouraged to contact me so we can discuss how to bring it to light. It should be pretty easy, and would offer at least some rock solid evidence that in a sense could protect currency sellers by giving companies (like paypal) some real evidence, or escrow sites some evidence to go off of for arbitration.
pm me
thx
Sorry Haploid
Be Careful Everyone!!

Oh yeah nice work if thats really him. I love that info diggin'

[Inaba]

Any escrow service is barely useful if there is no arbitration process.  There absolutely must be an arbitration process for any Bitcoin escrow service to be of any real value.

[BitPorium]

Any escrow service is barely useful if there is no arbitration process.  There absolutely must be an arbitration process for any Bitcoin escrow service to be of any real value.

I agree, I am working on a system right now to have escrow + arbitration. Should be done and ready for deployment sometime in the next 2 weeks.

[pekv2]

Sorry to hear about everyone's losses. I've been lurking this thread for some time now.

People like LEON(chris8lunch) give bitcoins a bad rap.

Sure does. And not just BTC but new comers like myself. Puts a bad position for new comers that are here legitimately to trading, buying selling etc.

Just nodding my head.

[AndyRossy]

I still think there should be a secondary "trust" profile linked to all forum profiles, in which, users can leave feedback about transactions with users, in an easily accessible way.

Users without trust or significantly send goods first as common etiquite (e.g. he would have had to have sent cards first assuming you had some trust).

This is what another forum I use for computer parts does, and it's worked well for 5 years. 

Please can we have. 

I dont believe an escrow service is the right solution here.

[kokojie]

Why no one used escrow? I sold a ton of 5830s here, and as a seller I always said I will accept escrow, even though my forum post count, customer feedback posts and registration date would've allowed me to not take escrow.

Demand escrow acceptance from your sellers!!!

[myrkul]

Why no one used escrow?

Be a pretty stupid scammer that agreed to use escrow, eh?

[pekv2]

Why no one used escrow? I sold a ton of 5830s here, and as a seller I always said I will accept escrow, even though my forum post count, customer feedback posts and registration date would've allowed me to not take escrow.

Demand escrow acceptance from your sellers!!!

I'm going to look into this escrow thing. I will use it if I go to sell something which I am planning to do once I mine a few more BTC's to cover mail cost coverage for any items that get shipped.

[kokojie]

Why no one used escrow?

Be a pretty stupid scammer that agreed to use escrow, eh?

That's what I'm saying, all buyers should just demand escrow for transactions more than 1 BTC, scammers will be all gone from here.

[kokojie]

Why no one used escrow? I sold a ton of 5830s here, and as a seller I always said I will accept escrow, even though my forum post count, customer feedback posts and registration date would've allowed me to not take escrow.

Demand escrow acceptance from your sellers!!!

I'm going to look into this escrow thing. I will use it if I go to sell something which I am planning to do once I mine a few more BTC's to cover mail cost coverage for any items that get shipped.

Escrow is mostly for buyer protection, and I always offer it because it let's my buyer know they are protected.

As a buyer they have no reason to screw over the seller (me), because buyers are not getting any money back from escrow regardless what happens (sellers should always demand donation type escrow). Buyer would not intentionally screw over the seller, because seller knows their address and why piss off someone that knows your name and address for no reason?

[pekv2]

Why no one used escrow? I sold a ton of 5830s here, and as a seller I always said I will accept escrow, even though my forum post count, customer feedback posts and registration date would've allowed me to not take escrow.

Demand escrow acceptance from your sellers!!!

I'm going to look into this escrow thing. I will use it if I go to sell something which I am planning to do once I mine a few more BTC's to cover mail cost coverage for any items that get shipped.

Escrow is mostly for buyer protection, and I always offer it because it let's my buyer know they are protected.

As a buyer they have no reason to screw over the seller (me), because buyers are not getting any money back from escrow regardless what happens (sellers should always demand donation type escrow). Buyer would not intentionally screw over the seller, because seller knows their address and why piss off someone that knows your name and address for no reason?

Oh, yea, I know it's for the buyers protection, that is why I will use it to insure the seller "me" is good, to deal with.

LOL@ address part, very true.

(donation type escrow)

How does this works?

[myrkul]

(donation type escrow)

How does this works?

deal falls through, money goes to the fountain, or another bitcoin charity.

[kgo]

Why no one used escrow?

Be a pretty stupid scammer that agreed to use escrow, eh?

The idea is, if the seller refuses to use escrow, that's a big red flag that they are a scammer.

[kgo]

(donation type escrow)

How does this works?

deal falls through, money goes to the fountain, or another bitcoin charity.

That's the way my escrow service works.  See the link in my sig.  It's an affordable way to provide some protection to both parties, but isn't perfect.

For something like this though, almost $1000 dollars worth of merchandise, it might be worth seeking a service where there is some actual dispute resolution.  Unless you really want to donate $1000 to the bitcoin faucet.

[myrkul]

Why no one used escrow?

Be a pretty stupid scammer that agreed to use escrow, eh?

The idea is, if the seller refuses to use escrow, that's a big red flag that they are a scammer.

That's confirmation, in my book.

[haploid23]

i've been talking to dwolla, they finally suspended his dwolla account so makes it a little harder to move money from mtgox to his bank account, or scam others directly paying with dwolla. i could probably post my chat with them later

[haploid23]

haploid23, all i can say is that I'm truly sorry about my snarky remark  
I recognize now who the scammer is. and i'm offering you my help in the only way i can.
Too bad that I can't solve completely your situation, but I can help you to maybe save the next person
from falling into such crap. Do good, and you will feel good.
It's impossible to save them all, because many, just like you did, jump on the bargains, only having seconds thoughts after thinking about it more clearly, but most times it's too late.

May this also be a lesson for those who like to impulse buy stuff... After all, more can happen than just you ending up buying something you don't need or like.  

Once again, i'm sorry about my comment, haploid23

no need to apologize, everything has already been said and done, it won't undo all of these scams... but thank you anyways for the apology. i believe this is the biggest scam on this forum, involving at least 8 victims to the same guy. i'll be sending you a PM in a few minutes on all his info i know to be posted on your website. but i think all that information is already on this thread.

what surprises me is that even after i posted this thread and spammed his new sale thread to NOT buy his stuff, people still bought his stuff and even the same 6990s that i had already paid for and later wanted out. i didn't even get the supposed refund for the 6990s yet, and 1 or 2 people still paid for them

[fitty]

haploid23, all i can say is that I'm truly sorry about my snarky remark  
I recognize now who the scammer is. and i'm offering you my help in the only way i can.
Too bad that I can't solve completely your situation, but I can help you to maybe save the next person
from falling into such crap. Do good, and you will feel good.
It's impossible to save them all, because many, just like you did, jump on the bargains, only having seconds thoughts after thinking about it more clearly, but most times it's too late.

May this also be a lesson for those who like to impulse buy stuff... After all, more can happen than just you ending up buying something you don't need or like.  

Once again, i'm sorry about my comment, haploid23

no need to apologize, everything has already been said and done, it won't undo all of these scams... but thank you anyways for the apology. i believe this is the biggest scam on this forum, involving at least 8 victims to the same guy. i'll be sending you a PM in a few minutes on all his info i know to be posted on your website. but i think all that information is already on this thread.

what surprises me is that even after i posted this thread and spammed his new sale thread to NOT buy his stuff, people still bought his stuff and even the same 6990s that i had already paid for and later wanted out. i didn't even get the supposed refund for the 6990s yet, and 1 or 2 people still paid for them

We need someone to organize a list of escrow services. We a list of where you can leave feedback/ratings. A guide on how to avoid getting scammed. It should be a sticky in the marketplace. The existing threads aren't very good, hard to search and don't help much to be honest.

If someone wants to get organized, get a master list together, pull together all the tips/tricks (checking his paypal email, his ebay, his bitcoin-otc.com profile). The avoid 99% of paypal scams thread has lots of good tips. I'd kick in a .5 btc bounty for whoever can pull it off. You can probably replace 3 of the sticky threads with one good one.

If someone selling items has no ebay, no bitcoin-otc, no history, use escrow. The problem now is we need people leaving feedback, ratings, on these sites so people can build up a transparent history. Posting john314 + rocks on the whitelist thread isn't going to get seen by anyone.

Food for thought. =)

[Inaba]

Do NOT use donation escrow services.  These are the stupidest idea I've ever seen implemented in an escrow service. 

Escrow is meant to protect both parties.  An escrow service that protects only one party is effectively not really an escrow service, and an "escrow" service that sends the money to a "donation" in the event of a default is just asking for all sorts of trouble.  I would never, ever, ever agree to a donation escrow as a buyer.  Donation escrows are only harmful to the process, they do not provide any benefit.  There is no risk to the scammer by using donation escrow or not using it - either way they won't get the money, but if they do use it, at the very least they can use it to fuck you so you don't get your money back in the event of a default.  On top of that, they can also be used as a harassment tool even if someone isn't a scammer in the sense of them trying to take your money.

An escrow service requires an arbitration process.  Any escrow service without an arbitration process is nothing more than "Hey Bob, will you hold my wad of cash for a few days?"  And you don't know Bob.  And Bob might give your money to the Red Cross if the seller tells him to.

As far as feedback/ratings go, there's already a site, it's called HEATWARE.  I use it on here as well as other forums.  It should be the standard for here, just like it is at so many other For Sale forums around the world.

[trentzb]

An escrow service requires an arbitration process.  Any escrow service without an arbitration process is nothing more than "Hey Bob, will you hold my wad of cash for a few days?"  And you don't know Bob.  And Bob might give your money to the Red Cross if the seller tells him to.

+1

OT and likely to be controversial. I believe ADR/Arbitration should operate with no emotion whatsover, no conflict of interest (or recuse), incentive to rule based on contract and evidence alone and a disincentive to rule on fairness. I don't know that all of those areas can be covered, but close to it I think is possible.

[kokojie]

No, actually in my experience, donation escrow is perfect. With arbitration type escrow, the buyer can choose to screw the seller and claim the item is no good, and get money back. Also, for digital goods, there's no way for seller to prove he has delivered the item. Also fraudulent sellers can just ship empty box to the buyer with tracking number to fool arbitration (I have seen this fraud on ebay/paypal many times, but ebay has a reputation system to keep this low).

Basically, if there's arbitration, there will be incentive for both buyer and seller to get creative and screw over the other guy. With donation escrow, there is no such thing. Seller has zero incentive to screw over the buyer as if the buyer is unhappy, seller does not get any money. Buyer also has zero incentive to screw over the seller, as buyer not getting money back either way, and he'd be really stupid to intentionally piss off someone that knows his name and address.

Do NOT use donation escrow services.  These are the stupidest idea I've ever seen implemented in an escrow service.  

Escrow is meant to protect both parties.  An escrow service that protects only one party is effectively not really an escrow service, and an "escrow" service that sends the money to a "donation" in the event of a default is just asking for all sorts of trouble.  I would never, ever, ever agree to a donation escrow as a buyer.  Donation escrows are only harmful to the process, they do not provide any benefit.  There is no risk to the scammer by using donation escrow or not using it - either way they won't get the money, but if they do use it, at the very least they can use it to fuck you so you don't get your money back in the event of a default.  On top of that, they can also be used as a harassment tool even if someone isn't a scammer in the sense of them trying to take your money.

An escrow service requires an arbitration process.  Any escrow service without an arbitration process is nothing more than "Hey Bob, will you hold my wad of cash for a few days?"  And you don't know Bob.  And Bob might give your money to the Red Cross if the seller tells him to.

As far as feedback/ratings go, there's already a site, it's called HEATWARE.  I use it on here as well as other forums.  It should be the standard for here, just like it is at so many other For Sale forums around the world.

[kgo]

(Full disclosure, I am biased here.  I run a donation based escrow.  But I believe my arguments are sound.)

There is no risk to the scammer by using donation escrow or not using it - either way they won't get the money, but if they do use it, at the very least they can use it to fuck you so you don't get your money back in the event of a default.  On top of that, they can also be used as a harassment tool even if someone isn't a scammer in the sense of them trying to take your money.

There's no risk to a scammer without a donation escrow anyway, since pretty much by definition they have nothing to lose.  What the escrow service does is remove the incentive to scam somebody, not remove the non-existant risk to the scammer.  The scammer has no reason to invest time setting up a con because the net return is a negative.  They use a resource, their time, and if there's no possible way to profit, they've lost out.  Hence they'll move on to the next potential victim, or try to pester you into not using escrow for some BS reason, and give up when you refuse to budge.

Yes the donation system isn't perfect.  But a perfect system is expensive.

Real world analogy.  Sometimes I mail something out that's 25 or 50 bucks.  I don't spend the money on insurance because it's too much from my perspective.  If I was mailing something that cost $500, then I buy the insurance right at the post office.  If I'm mailing a Picasso painting, I need to get insurance from Lloyd's of London and hire a private courier to deliver the goods.

Similarly, I buy a .25 BTC bumper sticker, I'll just take the chance on a loss.  If I spend 5-10 BTC for something, I want some lightweight protection, but don't want to pay a lot, because it adds up, so I use a donation escrow.  If I spend 100 BTC on a new laptop, then maybe I'll look into a full-service escrow.

An escrow service requires an arbitration process.  Any escrow service without an arbitration process is nothing more than "Hey Bob, will you hold my wad of cash for a few days?"  And you don't know Bob.  And Bob might give your money to the Red Cross if the seller tells him to.

No.  The person who gives the cash to Bob determines if it goes to the Red Cross.  The more comparable scenario is giving money to Bob, and saying, "If you don't here from me in a few days, burn that money, flush it down the toilet, but whatever you do, don't give it to that jackass."  The seller can not force a charity release and somehow steal my money.  If buyer is an actual scammer, they won't put the money into escrow in the first place, because they can't get it back.  Once again, the incentive to scam is removed, because it becomes impossible to profit.  Yes, conceivably a person could just not release the money after you've sent them, but what incentive to they have to do so?  The number of people who would just do that to be an a-hole are far less than the number of scammers out there.

Also, if the deal falls apart for legitimate reasons, and both people are on the same side, you can recover your bitcoins safely.  This is covered in my FAQ.

As far as feedback/ratings go, there's already a site, it's called HEATWARE.  I use it on here as well as other forums.  It should be the standard for here, just like it is at so many other For Sale forums around the world.

I don't understand how a donation based escrow could be used as a harassment tool.  The only thing I could think is that someone can keep on bugging you to release the coins.  But they could do the same thing without the escrow service, by bugging you to send coins.  Could you elaborate?

[kokojie]

Thanks, you said it better than me. Basically almost everything that happens in this world has a "motive" or "incentive" behind it. For a scammer to spend the time to write up the sale, risk being caught, and also might have to spend some time develop a seemingly reputable account, and then after all that get ZERO profit, the scammer has to be a extremely stupid scammer that likes to waste time.

(Full disclosure, I am biased here.  I run a donation based escrow.  But I believe my arguments are sound.)

There is no risk to the scammer by using donation escrow or not using it - either way they won't get the money, but if they do use it, at the very least they can use it to fuck you so you don't get your money back in the event of a default.  On top of that, they can also be used as a harassment tool even if someone isn't a scammer in the sense of them trying to take your money.

There's no risk to a scammer without a donation escrow anyway, since pretty much by definition they have nothing to lose.  What the escrow service does is remove the incentive to scam somebody, not remove the non-existant risk to the scammer.  The scammer has no reason to invest time setting up a con because the net return is a negative.  They use a resource, their time, and if there's no possible way to profit, they've lost out.  Hence they'll move on to the next potential victim, or try to pester you into not using escrow for some BS reason, and give up when you refuse to budge.

Yes the donation system isn't perfect.  But a perfect system is expensive.

Real world analogy.  Sometimes I mail something out that's 25 or 50 bucks.  I don't spend the money on insurance because it's too much from my perspective.  If I was mailing something that cost $500, then I buy the insurance right at the post office.  If I'm mailing a Picasso painting, I need to get insurance from Lloyd's of London and hire a private courier to deliver the goods.

Similarly, I buy a .25 BTC bumper sticker, I'll just take the chance on a loss.  If I spend 5-10 BTC for something, I want some lightweight protection, but don't want to pay a lot, because it adds up, so I use a donation escrow.  If I spend 100 BTC on a new laptop, then maybe I'll look into a full-service escrow.

An escrow service requires an arbitration process.  Any escrow service without an arbitration process is nothing more than "Hey Bob, will you hold my wad of cash for a few days?"  And you don't know Bob.  And Bob might give your money to the Red Cross if the seller tells him to.

No.  The person who gives the cash to Bob determines if it goes to the Red Cross.  The more comparable scenario is giving money to Bob, and saying, "If you don't here from me in a few days, burn that money, flush it down the toilet, but whatever you do, don't give it to that jackass."  The seller can not force a charity release and somehow steal my money.  If buyer is an actual scammer, they won't put the money into escrow in the first place, because they can't get it back.  Once again, the incentive to scam is removed, because it becomes impossible to profit.  Yes, conceivably a person could just not release the money after you've sent them, but what incentive to they have to do so?  The number of people who would just do that to be an a-hole are far less than the number of scammers out there.

Also, if the deal falls apart for legitimate reasons, and both people are on the same side, you can recover your bitcoins safely.  This is covered in my FAQ.

As far as feedback/ratings go, there's already a site, it's called HEATWARE.  I use it on here as well as other forums.  It should be the standard for here, just like it is at so many other For Sale forums around the world.

I don't understand how a donation based escrow could be used as a harassment tool.  The only thing I could think is that someone can keep on bugging you to release the coins.  But they could do the same thing without the escrow service, by bugging you to send coins.  Could you elaborate?

[pekv2]

If I were to use an donation escrow with selling something I have, the escrow receives the bitcoins from the buyer, I legitimately send off the product perfectly packaged, with photos, the buyer could receive shipment, report it bad or did not receive the shipment, then I would be without my product I sent off and the BTC's would go to a donation Bitcoin Faucet?

[myrkul]

If I were to use an donation escrow with selling something I have, the escrow receives the bitcoins from the buyer, I legitimately send off the product perfectly packaged, with photos, the buyer could receive shipment, report it bad or did not receive the shipment, then I would be without my product I sent off and the BTC's would go to a donation Bitcoin Faucet?

Yes, but at least that's better than them getting the coins back...

This is why escrows who actually receive the product, verify it, and then send the coins/product are an important next step.

[kgo]

If I were to use an donation escrow with selling something I have, the escrow receives the bitcoins from the buyer, I legitimately send off the product perfectly packaged, with photos, the buyer could receive shipment, report it bad or did not receive the shipment, then I would be without my product I sent off and the BTC's would go to a donation Bitcoin Faucet?

Yes, it's possible, but why would they do that?

Suppose I buy something with bitcoins.  I pay first.  The packaged is shipped to my house.  The seller could show up with a machete or a chainsaw and kill me.  They know where I live.  It's possible, but it's highly unlikely.  It's not a very big consideration when I'm trying to decide if I should close a deal.

Less far-fetched, maybe someone would refuse to release payment even after receiving goods just for the lulz.  But the sort of person who would do that is much rarer than the scammers in the world.

[pekv2]

If I were to use an donation escrow with selling something I have, the escrow receives the bitcoins from the buyer, I legitimately send off the product perfectly packaged, with photos, the buyer could receive shipment, report it bad or did not receive the shipment, then I would be without my product I sent off and the BTC's would go to a donation Bitcoin Faucet?

Yes, but at least that's better than them getting the coins back...

This is why escrows who actually receive the product, verify it, and then send the coins/product are an important next step.

I'm astonished. Wow. I didn't expect that. The way that is, I'd definitely use an escrow, because I was still a bit leery about sending my shipment out when the time comes.

[pekv2]

If I were to use an donation escrow with selling something I have, the escrow receives the bitcoins from the buyer, I legitimately send off the product perfectly packaged, with photos, the buyer could receive shipment, report it bad or did not receive the shipment, then I would be without my product I sent off and the BTC's would go to a donation Bitcoin Faucet?

Yes, it's possible, but why would they do that?

Suppose I buy something with bitcoins.  I pay first.  The packaged is shipped to my house.  The seller could show up with a machete or a chainsaw and kill me.  They know where I live.  It's possible, but it's highly unlikely.  It's not a very big consideration when I'm trying to decide if I should close a deal.

Less far-fetched, maybe someone would refuse to release payment even after receiving goods just for the lulz.  But the sort of person who would do that is much rarer than the scammers in the world.

Some people use P.O box.

[kgo]

If I were to use an donation escrow with selling something I have, the escrow receives the bitcoins from the buyer, I legitimately send off the product perfectly packaged, with photos, the buyer could receive shipment, report it bad or did not receive the shipment, then I would be without my product I sent off and the BTC's would go to a donation Bitcoin Faucet?

Yes, it's possible, but why would they do that?

Suppose I buy something with bitcoins.  I pay first.  The packaged is shipped to my house.  The seller could show up with a machete or a chainsaw and kill me.  They know where I live.  It's possible, but it's highly unlikely.  It's not a very big consideration when I'm trying to decide if I should close a deal.

Less far-fetched, maybe someone would refuse to release payment even after receiving goods just for the lulz.  But the sort of person who would do that is much rarer than the scammers in the world.

Some people use P.O box.

Yes, of course.

Let me put it this way: Yes it's possible that someone would rip you off in the original scenario you posted.  But is it likely?  In my opinion, it's not at all likely.  Most people don't have an incentive to screw you over in this situation.  Yes, there might be a crazy person or a sicko who gets some thrill by doing so, or some wacko who convinces himself somehow you cheated him and wants to get revenge, but the likelihood of dealing with one of these people is much, much lower than the likelihood of dealing with a scammer.  At least in my opinion.

[Smalleyster]

I too feel donation escrow is absurd and would never consider the idea.

Proper excrow needs an intermediate party to receive the goods, buyer goes to escrow agent's office and opens the goods in the presence of escrow agent with the video cam running.

The hard part is setting up the network of escrow agents.

I did this with buying a high dollar gun many years ago.

Once I signed the gun was mine and the money was his with the escrow agent and the company splitting the escrow fee.

I am currently in opening discussions with lawyers and finance agents about setting up with btc for this very issue.

[kgo]

I too feel donation escrow is absurd and would never consider the idea.

Proper excrow needs an intermediate party to receive the goods, buyer goes to escrow agent's office and opens the goods in the presence of escrow agent with the video cam running.

The hard part is setting up the network of escrow agents.

I did this with buying a high dollar gun many years ago.

Once I signed the gun was mine and the money was his with the escrow agent and the company splitting the escrow fee.

I am currently in opening discussions with lawyers and finance agents about setting up with btc for this very issue.

Yes if I was buying a high end gun I'd want a real escrow like that.  As I said a bit further up, I don't think donation escrow is appropriate for this particular deal, given the high dollar value.

But how much would full escrow cost for goods worth 5 Bitcoins?

The escrow service might have to require that the seller ships with delivery confirmation to ensure the service's reputation.  So now the price of the item goes up.

The escrow service needs a physical human to open the package.  This human need the skills to appraise the condition of the device.  Someone who can appraise a 6990 video card might not have the skills to appraise a gun.  And you're saying they need someone else to videotape it.

After that, the escrow service needs to send the package to the recipient with delivery confirmation, insurance, signatures, and all that, so the escrow service can't be cheated by the buyer.

Even conservatively, that's 1 BTC.  It could even be 2 BTC.  (Possibly more.  Does an expert appraiser care about making 3 dollars for a single deal?  How much does the guy with the video camera charge?)   For a 5 Bitcoin deal.  Is it worth it?  Many people would say no.  What about a deal worth 3 bitcoins?  Or 2?  These deals would probably have the same fixed expenses (and higher percentage) than the 5 BTC deal.

So why wouldn't you consider a service that offers more protection than nothing, but less protection than full escrow, which could easily be an additional 20-40% on a 5 BTC deal?

[Smalleyster]

I picked it up at a gun shop who was the agent of the escrow service.

I decided if the gun was what I wanted, not the gun store guy.

When *I* decided it was the right item and in good condition. I signed for it and it was mine.

If I had rejected it the item would have been shipped back and I would have been out one side of the shipping and the escrow fee.

We both had something on the line to lose.

No one was videotaping, it was a cheap webcam recording the transaction.

If I remember correctly it was about $10-20 for the escrow service. Not a lot but it got me in the store where I bought lots of guns and ammo in years to come. So that $10 "waste of time" bought him good marketing over the next few years.

Everybody won.

[kgo]

But would you spend that $20 fee on a hundred dollars worth of bullets?  Or for a $40 1 oz silver round?  Or a $20 World-of-warcraft card?

Donation style escrow is more like paying 80 cents for insurance at the post office than a full service escrow.

In some high-BTC circumstances I would consider it totally absurd.  In other smaller deals I wouldn't.  I don't see why someone would rule it out for small-to-medium sized online deals with anonymous internet people.  Or why someone would pay for full escrow on deals under 100 dollars.

It just seems like an oversimplification to me.  "Because donation-escrow doesn't offer 100% security, instead I'll just use nothing, where I have absolutely no protection from scammers."

Maybe we just need to come up with a different name, since indeed it isn't real escrow.

[Smalleyster]

I agree the word escrow does not belong in a $1 transaction.

That's a different beast that should be reputation based like ebay.

[pekv2]

For best transaction, for which I did not know, is to use escrow. Thanks to the ones that provided the information to keep away from scammers. I just started mining a few days ago, once I get at least two BTC mined, I will come back to give a donation to the ones that provided great information on how to stay safe.

[Inaba]

Donation style escrow is more like paying 80 cents for insurance at the post office than a full service escrow.

It's nothing like 80 cents for insurance at the post office.  It's not even kind of like it.  It's not even vaguely related to it.  See the rest of my post below:

kokojie & kgo:

I am finding it really difficult to believe you two are so deluded or naive to think that people won't do stuff to fuck with other people just for the hell of it (or for the lulz as the case may be).  Just because you've annoyed me in this post, I am going to create a fake account and sell you something through a donation escrow when you least expect it.

No, actually in my experience, donation escrow is perfect. With arbitration type escrow, the buyer can choose to screw the seller and claim the item is no good, and get money back. Also, for digital goods, there's no way for seller to prove he has delivered the item. Also fraudulent sellers can just ship empty box to the buyer with tracking number to fool arbitration (I have seen this fraud on ebay/paypal many times, but ebay has a reputation system to keep this low).

Your experience must be exceptionally limited then.  There is nothing good about a donation escrow.  It's a bastardization of the escrow process that screws all parties.  I also have serious questions as to whether or not a given escrow service would even send the money to the donation service listed, but that's another discussion entirely.  There is nothing a donation escrow service offers that is of value to anyone except the escrow operator.  In a defaulted situation, if the money doesn't go back to the seller, the whole transaction is pointless;  The seller is out their goods and the buyer is out their money.  Yes, the buyer might get the dubious "satisfaction" of knowing that the seller does not get any money, but this fallacy comes at the cost of allowing literally anyone to screw with any seller at any time with no reprecussions at all.  Again, if you are of the belief that people won't do that just for the hell of it and especially to exact some sort of revenge on someone, you are deluding yourselves.

Basically, if there's arbitration, there will be incentive for both buyer and seller to get creative and screw over the other guy. With donation escrow, there is no such thing. Seller has zero incentive to screw over the buyer as if the buyer is unhappy, seller does not get any money. Buyer also has zero incentive to screw over the seller, as buyer not getting money back either way, and he'd be really stupid to intentionally piss off someone that knows his name and address.

And this braindead donation escrow eliminates this how?  It doesn't, it just provides yet MORE opportunity to get creative to screw over someone with zero reprecussions.  Not only does it not solve a problem, it creates another one in the process.  The buyer could have every reason to screw over the seller - there is not "zero" reason.

There's no risk to a scammer without a donation escrow anyway, since pretty much by definition they have nothing to lose.  What the escrow service does is remove the incentive to scam somebody, not remove the non-existant risk to the scammer.  The scammer has no reason to invest time setting up a con because the net return is a negative.  They use a resource, their time, and if there's no possible way to profit, they've lost out.  Hence they'll move on to the next potential victim, or try to pester you into not using escrow for some BS reason, and give up when you refuse to budge.

I agree, there is no risk to the scammer without an escrow service.  There is also no risk to the scammer WITH a donation escrow service.  The donation escrow service adds NOTHING to the process and adds one additional avenue of harassment.  That was my original point - it doesn't add anything except more problems.  A monetary return is not always the incentive or goal of a scammer/harassment/forthelulz person.

No.  The person who gives the cash to Bob determines if it goes to the Red Cross.  The more comparable scenario is giving money to Bob, and saying, "If you don't here from me in a few days, burn that money, flush it down the toilet, but whatever you do, don't give it to that jackass."  The seller can not force a charity release and somehow steal my money.

Now you are contradicting yourself.  Either a donation escrow service enforces the "if in default, it goes to charity" or it does not.  If it does not, it doesn't fulfill it's design parameters.  If it does, then the buyer can easily force it by reporting it in default.  Your scenario is nothing like an escrow donation service.  Escrow donation is literally "Hey Bob, hold my money.  If you hear ANYTHING but 'Give him this money', throw it away and burn it."  So then Jim can say "Hey Bob, fuck off." and poof there goes your money.  That's the fallacy and ridiculousness of escrow donation.  Donation can be forced (by either party, but more importantly by the person buying) putting the control of the transaction in the buyer's hands when it should be in neither hands - that is the point of escrow.

The number of people who would just do that to be an a-hole are far less than the number of scammers out there.

Also, if the deal falls apart for legitimate reasons, and both people are on the same side, you can recover your bitcoins safely.  This is covered in my FAQ.

Far more than you are apparently aware of.  

As far as your second sentence in that quote, then you are arbitrating at that point and your arguments for a donation escrow fall completely apart (which they were already in shreds to begin with).  If the deal can be reversed due to certain conditions, then that is a form of arbitration.  Crude and rudimentary, but none the less that's what it is.

I don't understand how a donation based escrow could be used as a harassment tool.  The only thing I could think is that someone can keep on bugging you to release the coins.  But they could do the same thing without the escrow service, by bugging you to send coins.  Could you elaborate?

Really?  You can't imagine this scenario off the top of your head:

You've annoyed me somehow or I just pick you at random to fuck with.  I setup a fake account and offer to sell something I know you'll be interested in at an attractive price.  I deny all other offers privately and offer to sell to you for 25 BTC but I demand that you use an escrow service... but to show I'm magnanimous I offer to let you use the donation based escrow.  I tell you "Hey, to prove I'm not a scammer you can set it to donation so I won't get anything if I screw you." You think "Hey, that's cool, here  Mr. Donation Escrow, is my hard earned 25 BTC."

Now you're out 25 BTC and I dislike you because you've annoyed me.  I have to do nothing further.  I just cost you 25 BTC and have to do nothing but create a fake account and offer a product at an attractive price.

Now expand this scenario with someone how wants to fuck with a group of people... instead of taking just your offer, I can take several offers and screw 3 or 4 or more people out of their money, thereby undermining confidence in BTC.  All because there's a donation based escrow.

For a scammer to spend the time to write up the sale, risk being caught, and also might have to spend some time develop a seemingly reputable account, and then after all that get ZERO profit, the scammer has to be a extremely stupid scammer that likes to waste time.

In my opinion, it's not at all likely.  Most people don't have an incentive to screw you over in this situation.  Yes, there might be a crazy person or a sicko who gets some thrill by doing so, or some wacko who convinces himself somehow you cheated him and wants to get revenge, but the likelihood of dealing with one of these people is much, much lower than the likelihood of dealing with a scammer.  At least in my opinion.

I have two words for you:  4chan - /b/

And that's just one example.

I was, of course, lying at the top of the post about creating a fake account to sell you something.  Or was I?  You will never know and now you'll question every transaction you make through a donation escrow because it MIGHT be me just fucking with you because you've annoyed me.  You'll eventually be lulled into a false sense of security when nothing happens in the next month or two, but then BAM.  Or maybe it'll happen on your next transaction.  Am I serious?

[haploid23]

‘Icy-’ on bitcoin forums and twoplustwo.com forums
‘Chris8Lunch’ @yahoo.com @hotmail.com emails
‘Chris8lunch’ banned from talkgold.com forums for scamming
‘Chris Phillips’

Profiles:
http://www.talkgold.com/forum/member.php?u=16874
http://www.myspace.com/icybluehell
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=20533
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Christopher-M-Phillips/Rome-GA/4i986f1

Evidence:
SS from ‘icy-’
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4310/proofck.png

http://florida.arrests.org/Arrests/Christopher_Phillips_5464490/
looks like hes scamming to feed his drug habit

i don't know how you manage to find all this info on him, but thank you. i'll try to use this to maybe call his local authorities. so far there has been 9 people that said they have been scammed by this guy. if you also have been scammed by him and do not wish it to be public, then please PM me instead.

any of you got your money back yet? who paid through dwolla? i requested his dwolla account to be locked, but dwolla declined that request until another person filed a dispute against him on dwolla. i'm not sure who that person was, but his account is now suspended, so if you paid through dwolla, please file a dispute. i think even if you paid with BTC, try to file a dispute through dwolla anyways because he converted that BTC to dollars and moved it into dwolla. if he scammed you by BTC, you MIGHT be able to get your money back, but in dollars instead of BTC, so try to file a dispute anyways.

[Viceroy]

If you look at the imageshack screenshot it appears he also plays warcraft, fwiw.

[gurcani]

It never fails. Whenever I am bored, I come here and start reading. Always great entertainment. We can even see his mugshot. Keep up the good work guys.

so why was it that we didn't have rating system?

[BTCrow]

First I want to say that I respect your escrow service and I believe in fair competition in this field cause we only want to protect bitcoins users from fraudulent people cause we believe in bitcoin. (in fact I'm sure for my case, and I do believe that it's your case too)

No, actually in my experience, donation escrow is perfect. With arbitration type escrow, the buyer can choose to screw the seller and claim the item is no good, and get money back. Also, for digital goods, there's no way for seller to prove he has delivered the item. Also fraudulent sellers can just ship empty box to the buyer with tracking number to fool arbitration.

It always depend on how escrow service manage the arbitration process. Here's the rules my escrow force to do once there's a dispute before going to arbitration process:

Step 4: Buyer Rejects the Merchandise
When the Buyer clicks on the dispute button the Buyer confirm that he didn't accept the merchandise, Buyer must inform the Seller that the Buyer has rejected the merchandise.

The Buyer has 7 days to ship the merchandise to the Seller's after they reject the merchandise or he automatically loose the dispute and bitcoins goes to the Seller address listed at BTCrow.com. The Buyer is responsible for paying the return shipping/insurance costs.

After the Buyer has shipped the merchandise, they must sign in to BTCrow.com and enter the shipping company and tracking information into the resolution center. Buyer must inform the Seller indicating that the merchandise has been shipped.

Upon delivery of the shipment, the Seller must accept or reject the returned merchandise within 5 days or he will loose the dispute and bitcoins, minus escrow fee, goes to the Buyer's address listed at BTCrow.com.

The Seller Accepts the Returned Merchandise
If the Seller accept the merchandise, or fails to accept or reject during the 5 days upon delivery, the Seller will have accepted the returned merchandise and bitcoins, minus escrow fee, goes to the Buyer's address listed at BTCrow.com.

The Seller Rejects the Returned Merchandise
If the Seller rejects the merchandise, the Seller must inform the Buyer via the Resolution Center indicating the decision to reject the returned merchandise. The transaction will be considered to be in mediation by BTCrow.com.

BTCrow.com will hold the funds in escrow until the dispute is resolved. BTCrow.com does not assist in dispute resolution. The Buyer and Seller are to come to a mutual agreement of terms within 30 days or start the arbitration process within 60 days.


In this case the buyer need to send back the package to the seller and the seller must confirm the package. If he reject the package, they must come to a mutual agreement. If after 30 days party didn't conclude an agreement then BTCrow start the arbitration process. In those case we only rely on proof and nothing else.

You still think the seller can ship an empty box or the inverse ? yeah you're right but that's why once buyer and seller first initiate a transaction the buyer must ask the seller to do a signature base package, so in this case if the buyer receive the package he have to verify the box and sign if he accept, or do not sign and the package will return to the seller. In that case it is very easy for the arbitration process (if people come to use it) to know exactly what's happen to he package.


The next thing will be integration of reshipping service: Buyer make escrow > Seller ship package to escrow > Escrow verify package > Escrow reship package to Buyer > Buyer receive package > Buyer release the funds.

So in this case will cost a lot more to the buyer but it will be strongly suggested for huge transactions.

[cyrusfox]

I agree with everything Inaba has said. As a buyer I would not trust a donation escrow, as I am out bitcoins whether transaction goes through or not. Way to much risk there. Heatware should be implemented in every transaction. There is always going to be risk in any transaction, yes an escrow can try to fully account for all angles but I imagine the fee will be hefty. The whole benefit of bitcoins is the no transaction fee, no disputations, the anonymity of it all. Escrow service for bitcoin trading is a good idea but I would run from donation type escrow services(I need to be assured that if the deal goes south, I can get my bitcoins back). Till then, I will only deal with someone with some reputable Heat(Linked my limited heat).

Do NOT use donation escrow services.  These are the stupidest idea I've ever seen implemented in an escrow service. 

Escrow is meant to protect both parties.  An escrow service that protects only one party is effectively not really an escrow service, and an "escrow" service that sends the money to a "donation" in the event of a default is just asking for all sorts of trouble.  I would never, ever, ever agree to a donation escrow as a buyer.  Donation escrows are only harmful to the process, they do not provide any benefit.  There is no risk to the scammer by using donation escrow or not using it - either way they won't get the money, but if they do use it, at the very least they can use it to fuck you so you don't get your money back in the event of a default.  On top of that, they can also be used as a harassment tool even if someone isn't a scammer in the sense of them trying to take your money.

An escrow service requires an arbitration process.  Any escrow service without an arbitration process is nothing more than "Hey Bob, will you hold my wad of cash for a few days?"  And you don't know Bob.  And Bob might give your money to the Red Cross if the seller tells him to.

As far as feedback/ratings go, there's already a site, it's called HEATWARE.  I use it on here as well as other forums.  It should be the standard for here, just like it is at so many other For Sale forums around the world.

Donation style escrow is more like paying 80 cents for insurance at the post office than a full service escrow.

It's nothing like 80 cents for insurance at the post office.  It's not even kind of like it.  It's not even vaguely related to it.  See the rest of my post below:

kokojie & kgo:

I am finding it really difficult to believe you two are so deluded or naive to think that people won't do stuff to fuck with other people just for the hell of it (or for the lulz as the case may be).  Just because you've annoyed me in this post, I am going to create a fake account and sell you something through a donation escrow when you least expect it.

No, actually in my experience, donation escrow is perfect. With arbitration type escrow, the buyer can choose to screw the seller and claim the item is no good, and get money back. Also, for digital goods, there's no way for seller to prove he has delivered the item. Also fraudulent sellers can just ship empty box to the buyer with tracking number to fool arbitration (I have seen this fraud on ebay/paypal many times, but ebay has a reputation system to keep this low).

Your experience must be exceptionally limited then.  There is nothing good about a donation escrow.  It's a bastardization of the escrow process that screws all parties.  I also have serious questions as to whether or not a given escrow service would even send the money to the donation service listed, but that's another discussion entirely.  There is nothing a donation escrow service offers that is of value to anyone except the escrow operator.  In a defaulted situation, if the money doesn't go back to the seller, the whole transaction is pointless;  The seller is out their goods and the buyer is out their money.  Yes, the buyer might get the dubious "satisfaction" of knowing that the seller does not get any money, but this fallacy comes at the cost of allowing literally anyone to screw with any seller at any time with no reprecussions at all.  Again, if you are of the belief that people won't do that just for the hell of it and especially to exact some sort of revenge on someone, you are deluding yourselves.

Basically, if there's arbitration, there will be incentive for both buyer and seller to get creative and screw over the other guy. With donation escrow, there is no such thing. Seller has zero incentive to screw over the buyer as if the buyer is unhappy, seller does not get any money. Buyer also has zero incentive to screw over the seller, as buyer not getting money back either way, and he'd be really stupid to intentionally piss off someone that knows his name and address.

And this braindead donation escrow eliminates this how?  It doesn't, it just provides yet MORE opportunity to get creative to screw over someone with zero reprecussions.  Not only does it not solve a problem, it creates another one in the process.  The buyer could have every reason to screw over the seller - there is not "zero" reason.

There's no risk to a scammer without a donation escrow anyway, since pretty much by definition they have nothing to lose.  What the escrow service does is remove the incentive to scam somebody, not remove the non-existant risk to the scammer.  The scammer has no reason to invest time setting up a con because the net return is a negative.  They use a resource, their time, and if there's no possible way to profit, they've lost out.  Hence they'll move on to the next potential victim, or try to pester you into not using escrow for some BS reason, and give up when you refuse to budge.

I agree, there is no risk to the scammer without an escrow service.  There is also no risk to the scammer WITH a donation escrow service.  The donation escrow service adds NOTHING to the process and adds one additional avenue of harassment.  That was my original point - it doesn't add anything except more problems.  A monetary return is not always the incentive or goal of a scammer/harassment/forthelulz person.

No.  The person who gives the cash to Bob determines if it goes to the Red Cross.  The more comparable scenario is giving money to Bob, and saying, "If you don't here from me in a few days, burn that money, flush it down the toilet, but whatever you do, don't give it to that jackass."  The seller can not force a charity release and somehow steal my money.

Now you are contradicting yourself.  Either a donation escrow service enforces the "if in default, it goes to charity" or it does not.  If it does not, it doesn't fulfill it's design parameters.  If it does, then the buyer can easily force it by reporting it in default.  Your scenario is nothing like an escrow donation service.  Escrow donation is literally "Hey Bob, hold my money.  If you hear ANYTHING but 'Give him this money', throw it away and burn it."  So then Jim can say "Hey Bob, fuck off." and poof there goes your money.  That's the fallacy and ridiculousness of escrow donation.  Donation can be forced (by either party, but more importantly by the person buying) putting the control of the transaction in the buyer's hands when it should be in neither hands - that is the point of escrow.

The number of people who would just do that to be an a-hole are far less than the number of scammers out there.

Also, if the deal falls apart for legitimate reasons, and both people are on the same side, you can recover your bitcoins safely.  This is covered in my FAQ.

Far more than you are apparently aware of.  

As far as your second sentence in that quote, then you are arbitrating at that point and your arguments for a donation escrow fall completely apart (which they were already in shreds to begin with).  If the deal can be reversed due to certain conditions, then that is a form of arbitration.  Crude and rudimentary, but none the less that's what it is.

I don't understand how a donation based escrow could be used as a harassment tool.  The only thing I could think is that someone can keep on bugging you to release the coins.  But they could do the same thing without the escrow service, by bugging you to send coins.  Could you elaborate?

Really?  You can't imagine this scenario off the top of your head:

You've annoyed me somehow or I just pick you at random to fuck with.  I setup a fake account and offer to sell something I know you'll be interested in at an attractive price.  I deny all other offers privately and offer to sell to you for 25 BTC but I demand that you use an escrow service... but to show I'm magnanimous I offer to let you use the donation based escrow.  I tell you "Hey, to prove I'm not a scammer you can set it to donation so I won't get anything if I screw you." You think "Hey, that's cool, here  Mr. Donation Escrow, is my hard earned 25 BTC."

Now you're out 25 BTC and I dislike you because you've annoyed me.  I have to do nothing further.  I just cost you 25 BTC and have to do nothing but create a fake account and offer a product at an attractive price.

Now expand this scenario with someone how wants to fuck with a group of people... instead of taking just your offer, I can take several offers and screw 3 or 4 or more people out of their money, thereby undermining confidence in BTC.  All because there's a donation based escrow.

For a scammer to spend the time to write up the sale, risk being caught, and also might have to spend some time develop a seemingly reputable account, and then after all that get ZERO profit, the scammer has to be a extremely stupid scammer that likes to waste time.

In my opinion, it's not at all likely.  Most people don't have an incentive to screw you over in this situation.  Yes, there might be a crazy person or a sicko who gets some thrill by doing so, or some wacko who convinces himself somehow you cheated him and wants to get revenge, but the likelihood of dealing with one of these people is much, much lower than the likelihood of dealing with a scammer.  At least in my opinion.

I have two words for you:  4chan - /b/

And that's just one example.

I was, of course, lying at the top of the post about creating a fake account to sell you something.  Or was I?  You will never know and now you'll question every transaction you make through a donation escrow because it MIGHT be me just fucking with you because you've annoyed me.  You'll eventually be lulled into a false sense of security when nothing happens in the next month or two, but then BAM.  Or maybe it'll happen on your next transaction.  Am I serious?

[BTCrow]

I agree with everything Inaba has said. As a buyer I would not trust a donation escrow, as I am out bitcoins whether transaction goes through or not. Way to much risk there. Heatware should be implemented in every transaction. There is always going to be risk in any transaction, yes an escrow can try to fully account for all angles but I imagine the fee will be hefty. The whole benefit of bitcoins is the no transaction fee, no disputations, the anonymity of it all. Escrow service for bitcoin trading is a good idea but I would run from donation type escrow services(I need to be assured that if the deal goes south, I can get my bitcoins back). Till then, I will only deal with someone with some reputable Heat(Linked my limited heat).

I understand where you're coming from. For bitcoin "feedback system" there's 2 site (that I know, maybe there's other):

http://www.bitcoinsreview.com and http://betterbitcoinbureau.info

At BTCrow.com we also offer arbitration process, read the how-to for more information. As it protect both buyer and seller in a transaction as explained in my previous post.

[Mousepotato]

‘Icy-’ on bitcoin forums and twoplustwo.com forums
‘Chris8Lunch’ @yahoo.com @hotmail.com emails
‘Chris8lunch’ banned from talkgold.com forums for scamming
‘Chris Phillips’

Profiles:
http://www.talkgold.com/forum/member.php?u=16874
http://www.myspace.com/icybluehell
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=20533
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Christopher-M-Phillips/Rome-GA/4i986f1

Evidence:
SS from ‘icy-’
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4310/proofck.png

http://florida.arrests.org/Arrests/Christopher_Phillips_5464490/
looks like hes scamming to feed his drug habit

i don't know how you manage to find all this info on him, but thank you. i'll try to use this to maybe call his local authorities. so far there has been 9 people that said they have been scammed by this guy. if you also have been scammed by him and do not wish it to be public, then please PM me instead.

any of you got your money back yet? who paid through dwolla? i requested his dwolla account to be locked, but dwolla declined that request until another person filed a dispute against him on dwolla. i'm not sure who that person was, but his account is now suspended, so if you paid through dwolla, please file a dispute. i think even if you paid with BTC, try to file a dispute through dwolla anyways because he converted that BTC to dollars and moved it into dwolla. if he scammed you by BTC, you MIGHT be able to get your money back, but in dollars instead of BTC, so try to file a dispute anyways.

This guy moves around a lot.  Info I'm getting from searching has him in Rome, GA.  Gimme a few mins and I can probably find a phone # for you.

[Viceroy]

It always depend on how escrow service manage the arbitration process. Here's the rules my escrow force to do once there's a dispute before going to arbitration process:

First, this is a thread about LEON, not your escrow service.
Second, stop trolling for customers in threads you didn't start.
Third, stop posting in unrelated forums to sell your service, you spammer.
Fourth, if I were going to use an escrow service I wouldn't use one owned by a spamming troll.

* Viceroy looks crossly at Btcrow

[BTCrow]

It always depend on how escrow service manage the arbitration process. Here's the rules my escrow force to do once there's a dispute before going to arbitration process:

First, this is a thread about LEON, not your escrow service.
Second, stop trolling for customers in threads you didn't start.
Third, stop posting in unrelated forums to sell your service, you spammer.
Fourth, if I were going to use an escrow service I wouldn't use one owned by a spamming troll.

* Viceroy looks crossly at Btcrow

If you look at post before me you can see that I didn't initiate the escrow conversation and that people actually wanted to have escrow list or wanted to know a solution to not being scammed by others like LEON. I do only post on forums / thread that require people take a look at a protection service for their transactions.

For the point fourth, you should know that if you don,t wanna use our service is up to you but at least choose an escrow service for your bitcoin transactions.

I seriously think that the word troll is over abused here and is too easy to say once you disagree with people.

[Smalleyster]

IMHO BTCrow's posts in this thread are perfectly appropriate. I learned a thing or two in them.

[Sannyasi]

IMHO BTCrow's posts in this thread are perfectly appropriate. I learned a thing or two in them.

agreed- trolls will be trolls. good post

[kookiekrak]

someone close this damn thread already.

[Smalleyster]

someone close this damn thread already.

Just delete your posts from it and ignore it.

[Viceroy]

Leon, not escrow... go stat another thread.
people came here looking for info on Leon.
NOT ESCROW SERVICES.

someone close this damn thread already.

that.

[SHlFT]

Leon, not escrow... go stat another thread.
people came here looking for info on Leon.
NOT ESCROW SERVICES.

someone close this damn thread already.

that.

this

[BTCrow]

Leon, not escrow... go stat another thread.
people came here looking for info on Leon.
NOT ESCROW SERVICES.

page 6 / 7 was full of questions regarding escrow system to AVOID people such as leon, the only thing I told was to clearly say that such services already exists, I gave feedback sites that can be used to establish a trust and yes I gave my escrow service in order to help people avoid to write that kinda thread in future.

I didn't come saying:
hey link link use this escrow, link link, best of all link link SPAM << this is spam which I clearly didn't do.

btw this will be my last reply to your comment cause I feel that you didn't seems to understand what I mean.
In the meantime, have a good day, may the sun shine on you and put a smile on your face .

[Jonathan Ryan Owens]

I sold Haploid 6 ATI's so far, and he seems genuine if not apparently a little too trusting.

I see why he was so enthusiastic about being in the same city as me, with the ability to inspect his purchase.

Let's not forget that local exchange, whether it be in dollar, or in Bitcoin, is always much safer than sending strangers your money for products and services unseen.

Think local, act global.

-Jon

[simonk83]

I'm with Inaba on this as well.  I'd never use a donation "escrow" service as it just makes no sense to me.   There's definitely call for a proper, reasonable Escrow service around these parts though, so whoever gets a fair one set up should do fairly well.  I'd certainly use it.

[Trini8ed]

Well guys looks like leon's gonna get a random transaction of 330$ from his bank as I get this back from my dwolla dispute I hope he gets over drafted that faggot.

Me

So when can i get my money back?

Dwolla's Response

Dwolla Support
AUG 10, 2011  |  07:06AM CDT
*****,
You can expect to see the funds in your Dwolla account in the next 24-48 hours.

Best regards!

[BitPorium]

I forgot to post. I also got my money back. Feel bad for the guy who sent coins. Thats tough!

[Trini8ed]

Oh yeah everyone must be so happy yo see this pic i just got hope his bank gets over drafted!

[haploid23]

i'm still out over $800 and still have not gotten a penny back yet. i also updated the first post to consolidate the evidence as well as all his personal info i found

[film2240]

i'm still out over $800 and still have not gotten a penny back yet. i also updated the first post to consolidate the evidence as well as all his personal info i found

I'm a little curious after reading this thread.How did you manage to find all this info about this scammer?hacking?public sources?good sleuthing? Because I also wish to protect myself from all future scammers which is why I still refuse to do any buying of items/services in BTC thanks to the reputation of poor security and ease of scammers running with the money as BTC are not reversible like credit cards and Moneybookers (The only online payment I prefer to use because of security).

For me only accepting BTC (and all non reversible payments like cash) and refusing a payment method they know is reversible (like Moneybookers) is the 1st red flag for me.Does this sound right?or am I too suspicious of every1 that refuses to accept 'proper' payment methods (PayPal,MoneyBookers,credit cards, e.t.c)?

Another red flag for me is the merchant refusing to negotiate a better price (as I've seen scammers constantly pressuring people to pay the stated price,even if it's a blatant rip-off,at least where I am anyways) and refusal to negotiate a more favourable payment for the consumer (anything that's reversible) is a scammer ,as we've all seen in this thread,scammers will go out of the way to hide their tracks,no matter what and it only takes a slip up (on part of the scammer) and we have expose threads like this (which we need more of,quite frankly) making people aware of the scammers.

If anyone is from UK,have you ever heard of a TV show called Fake Britiain?It's a show where they expose rip offs,scammers and these guys are usually caught on camera.

[logansryche]

Wish I found this post sooner.. then again, wish both of em used Eptiv.
That's what we get I supose for coming in on a transaction too late. >.<