Buying shares in bitcoin casinos - Yea or Nay?

[Flora]

I think it would be both wise and profitable to invest in bitcoin casinos even though their wonderful 100% provably fair games usually result in lucky players. What is your opinion on buying shares? What is your educated opinion on the short term and long term profitability? And how do we avoid not-obvious scams and schemes?

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[elm]

I think it would be both wise and profitable to invest in bitcoin casinos even though their wonderful 100% provably fair games usually result in lucky players. What is your opinion on buying shares? What is your educated opinion on the short term and long term profitability? And how do we avoid not-obvious scams and schemes?

do You have any examples of bitcoin casinos who are offering to buy shares or give possibilities to invest?

[casinobitco]

CasinoBitco.in had the most successful IVPO in Havelock history, selling out in < 3 minutes.

https://www.havelockinvestments.com/order.php?symbol=CBTC

[TheSwede75]

It comes down to whether or not you believe in the business idea, founders and long term viability of Bitcoin. I see no reason to why a few casinos, poker sites etc. Should not be able to make it BIG in the next few years, and looking at valuations of party poker, bodog etc. Online gaming as a sector is wildly profitable especially for the earliest entrants to the scene.

[inspiredinvestor]

I think it would be both wise and profitable to invest in bitcoin casinos even though their wonderful 100% provably fair games usually result in lucky players. What is your opinion on buying shares? What is your educated opinion on the short term and long term profitability? And how do we avoid not-obvious scams and schemes?

Definietely wondering about this too, Flora. FOr example is it better/ more profitable to go with more established just-dice, or split the money over some of the new ones to get in early like 3-6 dice and BitcoinSports.eu ?
wondering if anyone has done the calculations on getting in early on the house roll?

[Flora]

I think it would be both wise and profitable to invest in bitcoin casinos even though their wonderful 100% provably fair games usually result in lucky players. What is your opinion on buying shares? What is your educated opinion on the short term and long term profitability? And how do we avoid not-obvious scams and schemes?

do You have any examples of bitcoin casinos who are offering to buy shares or give possibilities to invest?

LetsDice (but IPO now closed I see) and JustDice.

[Oleander]

How often do you check your investments?  Just-dice can be up or down as much as 1% on any particular day, which is a lot of variance for something that's going to make you maybe 3.5% a month. 

Also, take a look at bitcoinsports.eu for possible diversification.

[elm]

How often do you check your investments?  Just-dice can be up or down as much as 1% on any particular day, which is a lot of variance for something that's going to make you maybe 3.5% a month. 

Also, take a look at bitcoinsports.eu for possible diversification.

are there any min and max numbers what one can await in % like You mentioned 3.5% a month? and how is the investment secured if at all?

thanks

[Rannasha]

How often do you check your investments?  Just-dice can be up or down as much as 1% on any particular day, which is a lot of variance for something that's going to make you maybe 3.5% a month. 

Also, take a look at bitcoinsports.eu for possible diversification.

are there any min and max numbers what one can await in % like You mentioned 3.5% a month? and how is the investment secured if at all?

thanks

In case of Just-Dice, the investment becomes part of the bankroll and grows (and shrinks) along with it. If gamblers lose, the bankroll grows and investors win. If gamblers win, the opposite can happen. On J-D, gamblers can not win more than 1% of the bankroll in a single bet (and this value is updated after each bet), so it's very unlikely that your investment goes down a lot, but it has happened in the past that someone won thousands of BTC and the bankroll dropped over 10%.

The advantage with a J-D investment is that it is highly liquid. If you want to get out, you don't have to go to an exchange to sell shares (costing you both time and money), you can simply withdraw your investment immediately to an address of your choosing.

[Vycid]

I think it would be both wise and profitable to invest in bitcoin casinos even though their wonderful 100% provably fair games usually result in lucky players. What is your opinion on buying shares? What is your educated opinion on the short term and long term profitability? And how do we avoid not-obvious scams and schemes?

do You have any examples of bitcoin casinos who are offering to buy shares or give possibilities to invest?

LetsDice (but IPO now closed I see) and JustDice.

LetsDice is a scam, not a casino.

It runs a ponzi/martingale scheme with pyramid marketing. It is a brilliant, soulless money-grab on the part of its creator.

[Professor James Moriarty]

 Its about if you trust the owner or not. Since casinos have higher possibility of winning with their %1to2 edge.

 Tough investing in something like just-dice which I love looks difficult because your share value doesnt rise when others want to chip in. The regular buying shares and selling looks much better because when you wait long enough you make profit from both gamblers losing money AND your shares getting value thats a decent way , the greatest example was satoshi-dice buy-out , wish I invested everything I had into that

[elm]

 Its about if you trust the owner or not. Since casinos have higher possibility of winning with their %1to2 edge.

so investor is not secured as I understand it now.

[Professor James Moriarty]

 As an investor you are secured in websites like just-dice or satoshidice,  they are loyal to their investors.

 However I can't say that for all websites , some people invested in some casinos and lost all from scams.

 

[elm]

 As an investor you are secured in websites like just-dice or satoshidice,  they are loyal to their investors.

 However I can't say that for all websites , some people invested in some casinos and lost all from scams.

 

sorry, but I dont understand how investors are secured by JD? to be loyal is one thing and security is another thing. or did I understand You wrong?

[Rannasha]

 As an investor you are secured in websites like just-dice or satoshidice,  they are loyal to their investors.

 However I can't say that for all websites , some people invested in some casinos and lost all from scams.

 

sorry, but I dont understand how investors are secured by JD? to be loyal is one thing and security is another thing. or did I understand You wrong?

What do you mean by 'secured'? A guarantee that the operator doesn't run with the money you invested? In that case, it's simple: There isn't any. Bitcoin is mostly unregulated and so are the investments. So you'll have to make your own assessments as to whether an operator is trustworthy or not.

[elm]

 As an investor you are secured in websites like just-dice or satoshidice,  they are loyal to their investors.

 However I can't say that for all websites , some people invested in some casinos and lost all from scams.

 

sorry, but I dont understand how investors are secured by JD? to be loyal is one thing and security is another thing. or did I understand You wrong?

What do you mean by 'secured'? A guarantee that the operator doesn't run with the money you invested? In that case, it's simple: There isn't any. Bitcoin is mostly unregulated and so are the investments. So you'll have to make your own assessments as to whether an operator is trustworthy or not.

thank You very much for clarifying. yes that was what I meant

[Flora]

SatoshiBones is selling 10% of all future profits for a total of 250BTC: http://bitzillions.com/satoshibones/stake They are wonderfully honest and transparent but from looking at the payment reports it seems as though not even the biggest investors are making more than $20 per month. The converter I use is here: http://coinmill.com/BTC_USD.html I wouldn't invest in this because I want my investment to be a highly profitable one! And won't each investor's monthly payment decrease even further as the 10% is dispersed between the final total of a HUGE number of investors? Because if that's how it works I don't see why anyone would buy shares.

[Rannasha]

SatoshiBones is selling 10% of all future profits for a total of 250BTC: http://bitzillions.com/satoshibones/stake They are wonderfully honest and transparent but from looking at the payment reports it seems as though not even the biggest investors are making more than $20 per month. The converter I use is here: http://coinmill.com/BTC_USD.html I wouldn't invest in this because I want my investment to be a highly profitable one! And won't each investor's monthly payment decrease even further as the 10% is dispersed between the final total of a HUGE number of investors? Because if that's how it works I don't see why anyone would buy shares.

That website doesn't meet the requirements for provably fair betting. They don't post the hash of the server seed in advance, which makes it possible for a malicious operator to skew the results. And even if the operator is not malicious, the fact that the hash isn't posted in advance makes you question the experience/knowhow of the operator.

Anyway, the bet volume on that site seems really low. 250 BTC buys you only 10% of the profits, so the expected gains are really low, especially considering the fact that the Bitcoin gambling business is highly competitive, with new sites and innovations popping up regularly. SatoshiBones is a straight-up clone of SatoshiDice without any new innovations to attract gamblers (the house edge is slightly smaller at 1.5% instead of 1.9%, but there are plenty of 1% edge sites already). Furthermore, there is no information on how you can withdraw your investment, if it's even possible and whether you can always withdraw the full invested amount even if the site loses.

[Flora]

SatoshiBones is selling 10% of all future profits for a total of 250BTC: http://bitzillions.com/satoshibones/stake They are wonderfully honest and transparent but from looking at the payment reports it seems as though not even the biggest investors are making more than $20 per month. The converter I use is here: http://coinmill.com/BTC_USD.html I wouldn't invest in this because I want my investment to be a highly profitable one! And won't each investor's monthly payment decrease even further as the 10% is dispersed between the final total of a HUGE number of investors? Because if that's how it works I don't see why anyone would buy shares.

That website doesn't meet the requirements for provably fair betting. They don't post the hash of the server seed in advance, which makes it possible for a malicious operator to skew the results. And even if the operator is not malicious, the fact that the hash isn't posted in advance makes you question the experience/knowhow of the operator.

Anyway, the bet volume on that site seems really low. 250 BTC buys you only 10% of the profits, so the expected gains are really low, especially considering the fact that the Bitcoin gambling business is highly competitive, with new sites and innovations popping up regularly. SatoshiBones is a straight-up clone of SatoshiDice without any new innovations to attract gamblers (the house edge is slightly smaller at 1.5% instead of 1.9%, but there are plenty of 1% edge sites already). Furthermore, there is no information on how you can withdraw your investment, if it's even possible and whether you can always withdraw the full invested amount even if the site loses.

Excellent points! This is definitely not what I call a good investment either.

[damiano]

CasinoBitco.in had the most successful IVPO in Havelock history, selling out in < 3 minutes.

https://www.havelockinvestments.com/order.php?symbol=CBTC

eh sandstorm sold out in 10 seconds if that..

[BitCsByBit]

Right now Just Dice is in the negative. The profit is -5450 BTC, down from around 7000 BTC.

They got taken to the cleaners.

Press: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/technology/news/the-biggest-bitcoin-win-in-gambling-history/story-fni0bzod-1226725824027

[Flora]

Right now Just Dice is in the negative. The profit is -5450 BTC, down from around 7000 BTC.

They got taken to the cleaners.

Press: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/technology/news/the-biggest-bitcoin-win-in-gambling-history/story-fni0bzod-1226725824027

Wow!

Looks like for the first time in online gambling it's actually better to be a gambler than the house. I've decided not to buy shares thanks to everyone's helpful advice here. I think I might make a lot more money by playing roulette instead. 

[elm]

could some one shed some light on the question why is it better for an investor to invest in a casino like JD with 1% house edge and not in a casino with 1.5 - 1.9% house edge?

at least I got the impression that people think like this

[bitzillions]

SatoshiBones is selling 10% of all future profits for a total of 250BTC: http://bitzillions.com/satoshibones/stake They are wonderfully honest and transparent but from looking at the payment reports it seems as though not even the biggest investors are making more than $20 per month. The converter I use is here: http://coinmill.com/BTC_USD.html I wouldn't invest in this because I want my investment to be a highly profitable one! And won't each investor's monthly payment decrease even further as the 10% is dispersed between the final total of a HUGE number of investors? Because if that's how it works I don't see why anyone would buy shares.

That website doesn't meet the requirements for provably fair betting. They don't post the hash of the server seed in advance, which makes it possible for a malicious operator to skew the results. And even if the operator is not malicious, the fact that the hash isn't posted in advance makes you question the experience/knowhow of the operator.

Anyway, the bet volume on that site seems really low. 250 BTC buys you only 10% of the profits, so the expected gains are really low, especially considering the fact that the Bitcoin gambling business is highly competitive, with new sites and innovations popping up regularly. SatoshiBones is a straight-up clone of SatoshiDice without any new innovations to attract gamblers (the house edge is slightly smaller at 1.5% instead of 1.9%, but there are plenty of 1% edge sites already). Furthermore, there is no information on how you can withdraw your investment, if it's even possible and whether you can always withdraw the full invested amount even if the site loses.

@Rannasha:

Thank you for your critique of Satoshibones.    While I appreciate your honest feedback, I would like to counter some of your assertions.

* Provably fair

We have a fixed daily secret common to all bets that day.   If we were to alter this for any given bet, it would be very apparent to anyone who looked.   I'll gladly provide you data of all roll history, from which it is clear we do not cheat and have never cheated.

Providing a hash of the secret in advance is an idea we will gladly entertain.   We have nothing to hide.

We have now been in continuous operation for 1 year (just had our 1st Anniversary ) . Not insubstantial for the Bitcoin world.

* Bet volume

The only volume which really matters is number of bitcoin bet.   This has been increasing steadily, as has profitability.   Our investors have been paid monthly since the start, and as we continue to see increased play, their break-even point will come sooner.   This is not a get-rich-quick investment, but a steady dividend on a long-term investment.   Each investor has their own goals, and we cannot say that it is right for every investor.

*  Value add (over s.dice)

We won't deny that the site began as a s.dice clone.   We are working hard to develop 2nd gen games which will work off-chain.  But we do believe there are reasons some players will always prefer on-chain betting, and our aim is to make the service we offer the best around.  

Most of the positive feedback we've received has been from customers who like the simplicity and responsiveness of our site.  We aim to make it easy to see your bet result as quick as we can safely bring it to you.

S.dice no longer pays out on unconfirmed bets.  I think that's a pretty big difference.

* Withdrawal of stake

Our house stake is a long-term investment.   It is not typical for private companies to offer investment which can be withdrawn at will.   Down the road we do plan to set up something of a marketplace for people interested in selling their shares.  This needs to be done carefully to ensure we follow any securities related laws.

I hope that helps to clear up anything. If you have any other concerns please let me know!!

-Ben at Bitzillions

Edit: check out the official thread here as well for more info!

[Fundmanager23]

Our fund which is publicly listed in the US has tried to buy shares but it is not easy.  We haven't been able able to complete even bare bones due diligence.  We do like the space.