ocbitcoin
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September 19, 2013, 03:55:46 AM 

I am familiar with using bitaddress.org to generate addresses. I am not sure how the random numbers are generated.
If I want to use dice to tediously generate a 260 bit random number, how can I use that random number to generate a private key / public address?
I have no programming expertise. Thanks!!







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casascius
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September 19, 2013, 04:01:25 AM 

Just about any random 256bit number constitutes a valid private key. All you need to do, then, is calculate the bitcoin address for it. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable. I never believe them. If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins. I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion. Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice. Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.



jl2012
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September 19, 2013, 05:05:04 AM 

I am familiar with using bitaddress.org to generate addresses. I am not sure how the random numbers are generated.
If I want to use dice to tediously generate a 260 bit random number, how can I use that random number to generate a private key / public address?
I have no programming expertise. Thanks!!
Transform it to a 256bit Hex number and it is already the private key. Then use this to generate the public address: https://www.bitaddress.org/bitaddress.orgv2.4SHA11d5951f6a04dd5a287ac925da4e626870ee58d60.htmlFor safety, you should save the javascript and run it on an offline computer

Donation address: 374iXxS4BuqFHsEwwxUuH3nvJ69Y7Hqur3 (Bitcoin ONLY) LRDGENPLYrcTRssGoZrsCT1hngaH3BVkM4 (LTC) PGP: D3CC 1772 8600 5BB8 FF67 3294 C524 2A1A B393 6517



Nancarrow


September 19, 2013, 07:46:24 AM 

I am familiar with using bitaddress.org to generate addresses. I am not sure how the random numbers are generated.
If I want to use dice to tediously generate a 260 bit random number, how can I use that random number to generate a private key / public address?
I have no programming expertise. Thanks!!
I use four 16sided dice from here: http://www.thediceshoponline.com/dicesearch/D16I use four different pretty colours and decide on their order in advance. Each throw gives me 16 bits. So eight such throws give you 128 bits, enough for an electrum wallet seed, while 16 throws give you 256 bits, which (pretty much always) make a private key. If you don't have and don't want to buy 16sided dice, but you have ordinary cubies lying around, you could, say, throw a pair of dice. If the first dice comes up 'm' and the second comes up 'n', work out 6*(m1)+(n1). If it's between 0 and 31, convert to binary and you have five bits. If it's between 32 and 35 you'd better throw again. Once you have a dicegenerated private key you will really HAVE to use a computer to get the public key from it. jl2012's link looks good, though it bears repeating that YOU MUST RUN IT OFFLINE. You may want to eat the computer afterwards to be absolutely sure.

If I've said anything amusing and/or informative and you're feeling generous: 1GNJq39NYtf7cn2QFZZuP5vmC1mTs63rEW



DannyHamilton
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September 19, 2013, 10:10:53 PM 

 snip  If you don't have and don't want to buy 16sided dice, but you have ordinary cubies lying around, you could, say, throw a pair of dice. If the first dice comes up 'm' and the second comes up 'n', work out 6*(m1)+(n1). If it's between 0 and 31, convert to binary and you have five bits. If it's between 32 and 35 you'd better throw again.  snip 
Seems like such a waste of effort to have to keep throwing again every time the first die comes up 6 and the second comes up higher than 2. Perhaps instead, throw one die 99 times  or a pair of color coded dice 49 times, plus an additional throw of a single die
 or a color coded set of 3 dice 33 times
 or a color coded set of 4 dice 24 times, plus an additional throw of 3 dice
 or a color coded set of 5 dice 19 times, plus an additional throw of 4 dice
 or. . . (well, you get the point. 99 distinct ordered values from 6 sided dice)
Then you can subtract 1 from each value rolled and write it down as a 99 digit number in base 6. Voila. You've got yourself a private key with more than 255 bits of information. Now you can convert the number to binary, or hex, or base58, or decimal, or however it is that you like to represent your private keys and use whatever method you prefer to calculate the public key. Rather than trusting bitaddress, you could convert to WIF and then import the generated private key into BitcoinQt running on an offline computer? Then BitcoinQt should calculate the address for you, right?




Dabs
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September 20, 2013, 01:39:37 PM 

That's what I suggested somewhere else. Roll a 6 sided casino grade dice, about 100 times. If you get a 1, write down 0. If you get a 2, write down 1. If you get a 3, write down 2. If you get a 4, write down 3. If you get a 5, write down 4. If you get a 6, write down 5. base6 number = 3315135445300124430102440020244024024200400400022442224420424444024020024240204 40440400202424020222 convert to base 16 = 8E85A30B4276949DBFBC8771EDC4BCF98B66785E68D22D162CE6E8D69D50819B which is: Private Key: L1zkkHQDDtQTDRtZQwJJxATFrDMTstGxMsKhxySaa4vqEFtwtnmd Bitcoin Address: 16PYKf15c4kH7jYM4MTwQCgcmYuviLxGxB You could also use 16 sided dice, there's one that's even called and labeled "hexadecimal dice".




JompinDox
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November 11, 2013, 07:45:58 PM 

This 30line Python script will do the hard work for you, and even give you easytoremember mnemonics! It even works on my Android phone (after getting Qpython from the Play Store.) You still need the dice, though https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=308972.0example: 07/11/2013 15:29:32.27> nb_create 35412 13263 66533 45163 13165 41255 62216 18FmQmp5EezkXUv22ZY2PeCpsdAuN1aGV1 == knobs bands future pens bacon aliens unix

Tips? 1ELECeJompinDox61L73eAUyaWpe3Q5HZB Down with socks!



domob
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November 12, 2013, 07:13:09 AM 

Not exactly the answer to the precise question, but what I did is to write up a "random file" containing data from /dev/random, hacking on the keyboard, and just a writeup of some dice rolls. Any way you like, how many you like, just as it suits you. Then hash the file with SHA256 to get the private key.

Use your Namecoin identity as OpenID: https://nameid.org/Donations: 1 domobKsPZ5cWk2kXssD8p8ES1qffGUCm  NMC: NC domobcmcmVdxC5yxMitojQ4tvAtv99pY BMGtQnWM3vcdorfqpKXsmfHQ4rVYPG5pKS  GPG 0xA7330737



etotheipi
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November 12, 2013, 06:10:00 PM 

Another way to do this, for "perfect" entropy calculation is to roll sixsided dice and write down bits. Then convert those directly to a private key.
If you roll:
1: write down "00" 2: write down "01" 3: write down "10" 4: write down "11" 5: write down "0" 6: write down "1"
Yes, you only get one bit when you roll a 5 or 6, two bits for everything else. Stop when you have written down 128, 160, 192 or 256 bits (whatever your preference is). If the dice rolls are perfectly random, so will your resulting binary string.




deepceleron
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November 13, 2013, 02:06:00 AM Last edit: November 13, 2013, 02:45:44 AM by deepceleron 

Another way to do this, for "perfect" entropy calculation is to roll sixsided dice and write down bits. Then convert those directly to a private key...
Bleah, I coded some python to turn anysided dice into a fullstrength private key, no hashes. The answer is it takes a LOT of dice rolling, less than 100 d6's is not a fullstrength key. I quit at an unencoded 64 byte hex key, you can convert it to an importable key/address with http://bitaddress.org or such. **Dice to Bitcoin private key generator** >How many sides on your dice?:6 Need 100 rolls of 6sided dice. (258.496250072 bits) Number of dice rolls so far: 0, need 100 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >22222222222222333333333333333 Number of dice rolls so far: 29, need 71 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >2222222222244444444444 Number of dice rolls so far: 51, need 49 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >2222222222333333333 Number of dice rolls so far: 70, need 30 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >1 Number of dice rolls so far: 71, need 29 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >55555555555 Number of dice rolls so far: 82, need 18 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >333333 Number of dice rolls so far: 88, need 12 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >55555555 Number of dice rolls so far: 96, need 4 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >222222222 raw private key: 218c3c240686849676c9828fc5fd8749860365a0ed82ebe3e601a2b9a039f333
Or if you want to see what it looks like with bits or coin flips: **Dice to Bitcoin private key generator** >How many sides on your dice?:2 Need 256 rolls of 2sided dice. (256.0 bits) Number of dice rolls so far: 0, need 256 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >1111111111111111111111111111111122222222222222222222222222222222111111111111111 1111111111111111122222222222222222222222222222222 Number of dice rolls so far: 128, need 128 more. input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >1111111111111111111111111111111122222222222222222222222222222222111111111111111 1111111111111111122222222222222222222222222222222 raw private key: ffffffff00000000ffffffff00000000ffffffff00000000ffffffff00000000 import math keyval = 0 sides = '' roll_list = [] maxkey = int('FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFEBAAEDCE6AF48A03BBFD25E8CD0364141', base=16)
while not sides.isdigit() or int(sides) < 2: sides = raw_input('**Dice to Bitcoin private key generator**\n>How many sides on your dice?:') sides = int(sides) rolls = int(math.ceil(math.log(maxkey, sides))) print "Need %s rolls of %ssided dice. (%s bits)" % (rolls, sides, math.log(math.pow(sides, rolls), 2))
while len(roll_list) < rolls: print "Number of dice rolls so far: %s, need %s more." % (len(roll_list), rollslen(roll_list)) if sides < 10: rollinput = raw_input('input dice rolling results, no space between rolls:)\n>') rollinput = list(rollinput) else: rollinput = raw_input('input dice rolling results,separated by spaces:)\n>') rollinput = rollinput.split()
add_rolls = [] for inputitem in rollinput: if not inputitem.isdigit() or int(inputitem) < 1 or int(inputitem) > sides: print "**invalid dice roll detected: '%s', discarding all input " % inputitem break add_rolls.append(int(inputitem))
roll_list.extend(add_rolls)
for i in range(rolls): keyval += (roll_list[i]1) * sides ** i
hexkey = "{0:064x}".format(keyval)[64:] # truncate to 64 bytes hex
if int(hexkey, base=16) > maxkey or int(hexkey, base=16) < 1: raise Exception('Wow, invalid key, try again!')
print "raw private key: ", hexkey Not a problem to roll that many dice if you've got a diceomatic, though.




Dabs
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November 13, 2013, 03:25:31 AM 

You know, since the OP talked about lack of experience in programming, there is a simplified method that works with just bitaddress.org
Roll the dice 100 times. Write down the sequence.
Example:
3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224
Then you use that as the brain wallet passphrase in bitaddress.org
Uncompressed 1JGHFyjsnyQHnW29ygv19Qz4p2WRQAqwcs 5KjcaDDnmNhSWG33bt6rQ9LeJyfE2mjrrGPbqbFwJj6ruPnHw2v
And if you want the compressed version, just copy the private key to the wallet details tab.
Compressed 12WQuVvxwbVz17NLjgUJJgwsw5BhgAbqkA L5h61awSzrmVa9N2UxYq39ohgM5iWpUB2SvkmUCvhEpsFrDLCTVL
Easy. Works. Can not be brute forced. Make sure to roll the dice properly (roll it from far away and make it bounce against the other side.)




etotheipi
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November 13, 2013, 05:02:58 AM 

You know, since the OP talked about lack of experience in programming, there is a simplified method that works with just bitaddress.org
Roll the dice 100 times. Write down the sequence.
Example:
3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224
Then you use that as the brain wallet passphrase in bitaddress.org
Uncompressed 1JGHFyjsnyQHnW29ygv19Qz4p2WRQAqwcs 5KjcaDDnmNhSWG33bt6rQ9LeJyfE2mjrrGPbqbFwJj6ruPnHw2v
And if you want the compressed version, just copy the private key to the wallet details tab.
Compressed 12WQuVvxwbVz17NLjgUJJgwsw5BhgAbqkA L5h61awSzrmVa9N2UxYq39ohgM5iWpUB2SvkmUCvhEpsFrDLCTVL
Easy. Works. Can not be brute forced. Make sure to roll the dice properly (roll it from far away and make it bounce against the other side.)
I approve of the "generate a shitload of entropy and hash it" method. The reason I recommended my method is because it could be done with pen&paper, without any external functions. You can actually get a full hex private key without touching any external scripts or figuring out how to securely/privately execute hashes. Can be useful in some situations for people with nil programming experience. But I also wasn't aware that many tools will do the hashing for you.




DannyHamilton
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November 13, 2013, 05:20:31 AM 

Not a problem to roll that many dice if you've got a diceomatic, though. I want one!




Dabs
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November 13, 2013, 05:46:40 AM 

Some random dice rolls: 1515114655216115325642122225123253326422451141433346533141245222355351253322551 313634412352614264331 2443565212225612534555441166434331222244135565343252545521434253121562321443242 645511161421141542666 3625264632525323244536332552434513165352251263436321261524453551222433655626535 452245321333222534164 4141544241264462335153442225243422414232216646413144256143554416544246243141211 643563346263221443224 5361516555412114352626236336355256416333452441216245241432132543254145325513564 146253115163351263226 6314454446362462314626514444266211353522544624164642353465323155435124426666663 531545161262163664246 I like this one though: http://pwgenwin.sourceforge.net/index.html




jl2012
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November 13, 2013, 06:18:18 AM 

You know, since the OP talked about lack of experience in programming, there is a simplified method that works with just bitaddress.org
Roll the dice 100 times. Write down the sequence.
Example:
3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224
Then you use that as the brain wallet passphrase in bitaddress.org
Uncompressed 1JGHFyjsnyQHnW29ygv19Qz4p2WRQAqwcs 5KjcaDDnmNhSWG33bt6rQ9LeJyfE2mjrrGPbqbFwJj6ruPnHw2v
And if you want the compressed version, just copy the private key to the wallet details tab.
Compressed 12WQuVvxwbVz17NLjgUJJgwsw5BhgAbqkA L5h61awSzrmVa9N2UxYq39ohgM5iWpUB2SvkmUCvhEpsFrDLCTVL
Easy. Works. Can not be brute forced. Make sure to roll the dice properly (roll it from far away and make it bounce against the other side.)
I approve of the "generate a shitload of entropy and hash it" method. The reason I recommended my method is because it could be done with pen&paper, without any external functions. You can actually get a full hex private key without touching any external scripts or figuring out how to securely/privately execute hashes. Can be useful in some situations for people with nil programming experience. But I also wasn't aware that many tools will do the hashing for you. Anyway, it is not possible to derive the public key and the address without using using a computer

Donation address: 374iXxS4BuqFHsEwwxUuH3nvJ69Y7Hqur3 (Bitcoin ONLY) LRDGENPLYrcTRssGoZrsCT1hngaH3BVkM4 (LTC) PGP: D3CC 1772 8600 5BB8 FF67 3294 C524 2A1A B393 6517



etotheipi
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November 13, 2013, 06:25:04 AM 

I approve of the "generate a shitload of entropy and hash it" method. The reason I recommended my method is because it could be done with pen&paper, without any external functions. You can actually get a full hex private key without touching any external scripts or figuring out how to securely/privately execute hashes. Can be useful in some situations for people with nil programming experience.
But I also wasn't aware that many tools will do the hashing for you.
Anyway, it is not possible to derive the public key and the address without using using a computer [/quote] Sure. But you're plugging it into an app that will generate that for you. Not all apps will apply hashes for you.




blub
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November 13, 2013, 10:05:51 AM 

Anyway, it is not possible to derive the public key and the address without using using a computer
It is quite possible to do this with pen and paper. I don't know the ripdem algorithm, but the sha and key multiplication could be done in a few hours of concentrated work(and a few hours on the next day to check). Nothing you want to do, but otherwise, if you can't trust any of your hardware, it could be the ultima ratio.




jl2012
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November 13, 2013, 10:27:52 AM 

Anyway, it is not possible to derive the public key and the address without using using a computer
It is quite possible to do this with pen and paper. I don't know the ripdem algorithm, but the sha and key multiplication could be done in a few hours of concentrated work(and a few hours on the next day to check). Nothing you want to do, but otherwise, if you can't trust any of your hardware, it could be the ultima ratio. Before doing the calculation you may want to wrap the room and your head with tinfoil

Donation address: 374iXxS4BuqFHsEwwxUuH3nvJ69Y7Hqur3 (Bitcoin ONLY) LRDGENPLYrcTRssGoZrsCT1hngaH3BVkM4 (LTC) PGP: D3CC 1772 8600 5BB8 FF67 3294 C524 2A1A B393 6517



Dabs
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November 13, 2013, 11:49:22 AM 

uh.. more like a few weeks. You can't do the work manually. It's too much. This has been discussed before. You would have to work nonstop for a few weeks straight, on the assumption that you can do several CORRECT calculations per minute, without breaks, and without sleep.
I know a drug that supposedly works to keep you awake, as coffee won't work after the first 72 hours. You will eventually need to rest, and then that doubles the time.
Plus, you want to double check that you finally got the correct address, so you'll want to do everything again after you're done.
For one bitcoin address.
Just use an offline computer.




Abdussamad
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November 15, 2013, 05:59:08 PM 

Anyway, it is not possible to derive the public key and the address without using using a computer
It is quite possible to do this with pen and paper. I don't know the ripdem algorithm, but the sha and key multiplication could be done in a few hours of concentrated work(and a few hours on the next day to check). Nothing you want to do, but otherwise, if you can't trust any of your hardware, it could be the ultima ratio. No it can't be done manually. Jackjack explained it all in another thread where this came up. Search for it. Anyway a lot of the heavy weights are in this thread. I would have thought that generating private keys manually might be termed a little extreme.




etotheipi
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November 15, 2013, 06:01:55 PM 

Anyway a lot of the heavy weights are in this thread. I would have thought that generating private keys manually might be termed a little extreme.
Depends on your definition of costtobenefit ratio: Cost: Spending 20 minutes, one time, to create entropy and convert it to a wallet Benefit: Avoiding 100% of all BS regarding computergenerated entropy sources & algorithms, until the end of time If you're holding a "lot" of money, some people would rather just remove all doubt. And the cost of doing so really isn't that high.




Abdussamad
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November 15, 2013, 06:47:07 PM 

If you're holding a "lot" of money, some people would rather just remove all doubt. And the cost of doing so really isn't that high.
Unfortunately I don't have that problem :p Got into bitcoin too late for that.




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November 16, 2013, 12:47:49 AM 

I approve of the "generate a shitload of entropy and hash it" method. The reason I recommended my method is because it could be done with pen&paper, without any external functions. You can actually get a full hex private key without touching any external scripts or figuring out how to securely/privately execute hashes. Can be useful in some situations for people with nil programming experience.
But will BitcoinQT import a private key directly? (not WIF) I am aware it has no checksum etc. Or would I need to rely on additional tools to ensure I generate the correct WIF key (example  bitcoinbashtools and bitaddress JS). Roll the dice 100 times. Write down the sequence.
Example:
3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224
Then you use that as the brain wallet passphrase in bitaddress.org
If I append "1", "2", "3" etc to the original series of rolls (seed)  sha256sum(3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224 1) .. does this constitute a "secure" method for generating a series of addresses? Another way to do this, for "perfect" entropy calculation is to roll sixsided dice and write down bits. Then convert those directly to a private key.
So, about 150 rolls of the dice?




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November 20, 2013, 05:39:13 AM 

I approve of the "generate a shitload of entropy and hash it" method. The reason I recommended my method is because it could be done with pen&paper, without any external functions. You can actually get a full hex private key without touching any external scripts or figuring out how to securely/privately execute hashes. Can be useful in some situations for people with nil programming experience.
But will BitcoinQT import a private key directly? (not WIF) I am aware it has no checksum etc. Or would I need to rely on additional tools to ensure I generate the correct WIF key (example  bitcoinbashtools and bitaddress JS). Roll the dice 100 times. Write down the sequence.
Example:
3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224
Then you use that as the brain wallet passphrase in bitaddress.org
If I append "1", "2", "3" etc to the original series of rolls (seed)  sha256sum(3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224 1) .. does this constitute a "secure" method for generating a series of addresses? Another way to do this, for "perfect" entropy calculation is to roll sixsided dice and write down bits. Then convert those directly to a private key.
So, about 150 rolls of the dice? Hello there Note above. Would some one know if above method for generating private keys from a dicegenerated seed be "secure" ?




Dabs
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November 20, 2013, 06:23:30 AM 

If I append "1", "2", "3" etc to the original series of rolls (seed)  sha256sum(3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 4644646626242462622241) .. does this constitute a "secure" method for generating a series of addresses? What I would personally do is tack on a letter, say "x" and then use a 3 digit number with leading zeros. For example: 3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224x001 3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224x002 3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224x003 ... 3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224x998 3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224x999 3315135445366124436162446626244624624266466466622442224426424444624626624246264 464464662624246262224x000 Would give you a thousand addresses. If it's just a few you need, I'd just roll another 100 times for every address. There is no need to roll more than that for each address, you'll be wasting rolls. The dice rolls are secure as long as no one else is in the room, and no one else is watching you roll or can see the dice. The computer you use is secure as long as it is offline and is properly wiped or erased or encrypted or everything is run in RAM then completely powered off. To "properly" roll the dice means you should throw it across the room, and record only the ones that bounce back from the opposite wall. (Or roll it on something similar to a craps table, where it has to bounce from the other side.) If you're lazy and already have 100 dice, just throw them all at once against the wall and take a RAW picture of everything using a 24 megapixel DSLR camera at the highest ISO setting, then hash the 15 megabyte file for your new private key. Then delete the picture and format the memory card.




deepceleron
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November 21, 2013, 10:58:02 AM Last edit: November 21, 2013, 06:37:31 PM by deepceleron 

Welp, I have plugged away like a busy little beaver, and made a proper dice > paper wallet app. **Dice to Bitcoin private key generator** >How many sides on your dice?:6 Need 100 rolls of 6sided dice. (258.496250072 bits)
Number of dice rolls so far: 0, need 100 more. Input some dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >333222
Number of dice rolls so far: 6, need 94 more. Input some dice rolling results, no space between rolls:) >g Generating random *insecure* dice rolls for remainder
dice used: [3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 1, 3, 6, 3, 1, 3, 5] [1, 6, 5, 1, 6, 2, 1, 3, 3, 5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2] [1, 4, 1, 3, 3, 6, 5, 4, 1, 1, 6, 3, 3, 4, 4] [4, 4, 4, 6, 1, 5, 4, 4, 3, 5, 4, 4, 3, 6, 3] [1, 5, 1, 2, 6, 3, 2, 3, 6, 3, 1, 4, 5, 3, 4] [2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 5, 2, 2, 4, 6, 1, 3, 2, 2, 3] [4, 6, 5, 1]
====== Generated Address Information ============ Bitcoin Address: 1E6dxk14PHR1LyeWf75etHc5FRe56V7VPD Private Key (Wallet Import Format): 5JszuAC6bzJT9uebYCcUKJpr6Qm47WBhPDqoL9PNSCQyCZg5dxa Private Key (Hexadecimal 64 char) : 8c2022b93ef466ba3ca44944690e2aaa31c8aff3a7058fff24b432498dd94d33 Public Key (Full 130 character): 0458d4ef6a6853d67d6d8af4c4b96b3a3bea1512d104023c953ba0f33d705af0b4b28187c39a124 47123a2633fda64ec47d7ea4b84d366110d44be58aa369040fc  Bitcoin Address (Compressed): 159qofqiLySCY55RugEz6Qs6eFZzjohU5J Private Key (Wallet Import Format Compressed): L1v6ZDZyjRv2SKNwSiFZZogBgssSjhpDF5gPVW1jcDNo3ySEMTE9 Public Key (Compressed): 0258d4ef6a6853d67d6d8af4c4b96b3a3bea1512d104023c953ba0f33d705af0b4 =================================================== (Press "Enter" for more dice keys, "C" and "Enter" to close.) I wasn't content merely using dice as a base6 number. I decided to remove any bias the cryptologists might find in your dice by randomly shuffling the rolls, bits, and hex characters, seeding urandom with your dice, and XORing the private key with system entropy. It's probably idiotsafe even if you just bang on the numberpad. There's an undocumented feature for testing. At any point when inputting dice, you can put in a special letter to let the computer complete the rest of the dice rolls for you. "g"generate random dice rolls; "z"  generate rolls of 1; "m"  generate the highest dice rolls possible. I could maybe make this save the paper wallet info to a file or print at your command, or make Electrum seeds, if anybody even cares. Addresses and such are calculated with the Python Bitcoin ECC library  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=271343.0 Download links:http://we.lovebitco.in/dice2key.py (Python 2.7 source) http://we.lovebitco.in/setupdice2key.py (for py2exe) http://we.lovebitco.in/dice2key.exe (Windows 32 bit executable (python 2.7.6/winxp)) md5: be686743bbe03ad8178c35f785e4c6fe *dice2key.exe You shouldn't trust my exe, but there it is. I've not documented my exact build environment to make it reproducible.




QuantumQrack


November 21, 2013, 01:33:37 PM 

So I am going to ask sort of an obvious question here, but maybe the answer isn't so obvious. What is the right way to "roll" the die? I was thinking of just dropping casino quality die from about 10cm above a hard surface. Is this the best way? Is there a best way?




dserrano5
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November 21, 2013, 01:50:36 PM 

I wasn't content merely using dice as a base6 number. I decided to remove any bias the cryptologists might find in your dice by randomly shuffling the rolls, bits, and hex characters, seeding urandom with your dice, and XORing the private key with system entropy. It's probably idiotsafe even if you just bang on the numberpad.
I don't get this. The whole point of using dice was to bypass potentially compromised sources of randomness in our computers, no? Doesn't all that shuffing, seeding and XORing taint our pure dicegenerated entropy?




DannyHamilton
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November 21, 2013, 01:58:40 PM 

So I am going to ask sort of an obvious question here, but maybe the answer isn't so obvious. What is the right way to "roll" the die? I was thinking of just dropping casino quality die from about 10cm above a hard surface. Is this the best way? Is there a best way?
There is a belief among some people that if you are rolling dice repeatedly many, many times, you can get into a bit of a rhythm such that you start to pick up the dice in almost exactly the same way, and release them in almost exactly the same way multiple times resulting in patterns in the results. Personally, I suspect that this is generally unlikely, and if it is possible, it would be be unlikely that anyone could predict what your personal patterns would be. However, if you want to be certain that you aren't accidentally creating predictable patterns in your rolls, I'd suggest placing multiple dice into a cup. cover the opening and give the cup a few firm shakes. Then dump the dice out onto a flat surface. The act of the dice bouncing off each other and the cylindrical sides of the cup should be sufficient to randomize the results even if you both drop them into the cup and shake it in exactly the same way every time.




deepceleron
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November 21, 2013, 06:09:29 PM Last edit: November 21, 2013, 06:23:20 PM by deepceleron 

I wasn't content merely using dice as a base6 number. I decided to remove any bias the cryptologists might find in your dice by randomly shuffling the rolls, bits, and hex characters, seeding urandom with your dice, and XORing the private key with system entropy. It's probably idiotsafe even if you just bang on the numberpad.
I don't get this. The whole point of using dice was to bypass potentially compromised sources of randomness in our computers, no? Doesn't all that shuffing, seeding and XORing taint our pure dicegenerated entropy? If the input is random, then mixing it with the worst corrupted backdoored random source won't make it less random (as long as the functions are blind to the contents). If the input is not random, mixing it with a good random source will make it random. A onetime pad is the perfect encryption, I'm using a onetime pad on your dice and throwing it away. Before, the input was XORed with 0x00000000f (nothing), which reveals the dice rolls and any bias in them. If your dice were heavier on the 1 side than the 6 side from the pips being drilled, then the "random" number would be biased in a way revealed by a randomness test suite over a statistically significant number of rolls. If I have 100 dice in a dice rolling machine, and die 33 is defective or a camera always reads it's bits incorrectly because a bug died on the lens, I've shuffled around that error and masked it. Also there is the (non) issue of modulo bias when truncating a nonhex to hexconverted number. I let you type in more dice than required and use the extra bits, however, for non 2^x  sided dice, the number is "extremely slightly smaller than it should be". Dice are not a quantum phenomenabased random source, and the mere act of putting different shaped ink on each side of a molecularlyperfect cube makes them imperfect physical objects. Rolling dice is a paranoia level response to NSA backdoored random number generators, I'm just being more paranoid for you. I've also extended the usefulness of your dice roll, you can continue to cut and paste the same dice into the program and not get identical results. What taints true entropy is using a hash like sha256, or any other function that maps to a reduced set of bits. Previous hash functions have had successful reduction attacks demonstrated, there is no reason to assume that SHA2 is the perfect hash function.




Dabs
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The Concierge of Crypto


November 22, 2013, 01:17:50 AM 

I like your little app deepceleron. Works for me. So I am going to ask sort of an obvious question here, but maybe the answer isn't so obvious. What is the right way to "roll" the die? I was thinking of just dropping casino quality die from about 10cm above a hard surface. Is this the best way? Is there a best way?
The dice rolls are secure as long as no one else is in the room, and no one else is watching you roll or can see the dice. The computer you use is secure as long as it is offline and is properly wiped or erased or encrypted or everything is run in RAM then completely powered off.
To "properly" roll the dice means you should throw it across the room, and record only the ones that bounce back from the opposite wall. (Or roll it on something similar to a craps table, where it has to bounce from the other side.)





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December 01, 2013, 08:06:31 AM 

This is nice. The hex format can be confirmed with this I think  echo 'obase=16; ibase=6; 0123450123450123450123450123450123450123450123450123450123450123450123450123450 12345012345012345012'  bc A nice way to input dice throws directly into bitaddress and not have to rely on computer rng. Separate question  can bitcoinqt import base16 directly?





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December 08, 2013, 08:09:49 PM 

I have been thinking about generating private keys, or even electrum seeds with dice, and came across some snags that maybe y'all can help me through. Consider generating a 128 bit electrum seed using a sixsided die (it is more straightforward than generating private keys, because of the range of valid private keys required by secp256k1, but I think the discussion extends to private keys as well). In order to ensure 128 bits of entropy, the samplespace for your dicerolls must contain 2 ^{128} or more elements. Because the sample space of n dice rolls has 6 ^{n} elements, and because 6 ^{49} < 2 ^{128} and 6 ^{50} > 2 ^{128}, we say we need at least 50 sixsided dice rolls to generate 128 bits of entropy. So how do you convert your 50 dice rolls into a 128 bit number? One method mentioned in this thread is to treat your dice rolls as a 50digit base 6 number, and just convert that number to base 2 (or hex). The problem is not all 50digit base 6 numbers convert to 128digit base 2 numbers. In fact, less than half of them do! This is because 2 ^{128} / 6 ^{50} ~ 0.421. So what do you do if your 50digit base 6 number converts to more than 128 base 2 digits? Do you truncate the leading digits? The trailing digits? Do you perform some other mapping to 128 digit numbers? Are you sure that your resulting set is uniformly distributed over the set of all possible 128 bit numbers? The problem is worse with private keys, because 2 ^{256} / 6 ^{100} ~ 0.177. These kind of questions make me wonder how bitaddress.org is converting 99 dice rolls into private keys. Even more concerning is that 6 ^{99} < 2 ^{256}! What seems far safer to me is do use some other methods mentioned in this thread:  Disregard any base 6 number that is larger than your desired samplespace and reroll (tedious)
 Hash your string of dice rolls.
 Use hex dice.
Regards, Frito_Mosquito




deepceleron
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December 08, 2013, 08:57:13 PM 

I have been thinking about generating private keys, or even electrum seeds with dice
You should read the rest of this thread, as everything you've typed is talked about. I wrote something that you can type your dice (or anything) into, but it will only need 32 key presses and will be much stronger than the dice: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361092This should end the "roll dice" talk. I made it generate Electrum seeds with a 5 minute mod. Replace the end of the script with this "main" section: if __name__ == "__main__": if len(argv) > 1 and argv[1][0].lower() == 'v': platform_check(1) userentropy = keyboard_entropy() for i in range(50): privk = random_key(userentropy) privk = encode(privk, 16) privk = privk[:32] stdout.write(privk +'\n') Then run it and pick a seed. eb3fd08cc9e5e8b84d6664df43869329 a26e94a535640cc9a3328d9623685959 312551f8084215516b09a721b00ee183 e6f9443810f3945142a52844f9d37678 74d7e7225cf22841ae2d4f7177eb1c10 ec51d3e933bdf6ac990fb611b8fb624a 9af6f28e6062f96f71866c6f7c39492f d37411cfa6dc140bbd117376ac251312 b926a225f7a458e9d1d3d071c76cae68 e55d2eae738785407af71ca7229b9627 4cb4fcfbbc170131e7fe6fdea5fcd89f 4688605e91f5fb02cf6df254e78aaa59 6dca80cb9150f64b6b54ff078fcec946 f2adf8b925cf74d5e7c17af66853b136 238f2053f0031534e7a96a68c9963844 a653695ee91796e1a98427be2e619e6d 4098912769cd719929138edf7df12cca 5bbc479f71203c92495421ee258dad45 b9603f290a0d9cf071ee2d16ce26e65d 607ecf8b5128d1ae6ed032b809eec7de ecc2fefa282fb169bc82f860d1dee5fc bb8bdc8d8a8e8933842645884176066f 20d0011175644f13ca51d692f136323a 92152b46c9d5177372de0fa24cd95f05 d519871d0bacba9bd673f9eae7a7aeb2 e0510191d11e6af3ce3c45749b39fdc9 fcf7f4e0302d093ca0bd167d8051bb48 bb19bf51db6420f75fce755c001205fa 519d17f68c7220a31f8cb09c13ae1678 4eeb9f1a33e760d04a8cf1370e1410f9 37b00cf85895a689aa29151e06205a39 fe8082ec08890cc3c4df4a1bf2d35893 1c0fd63e8b75f8d8cae0d02eaa9ae1c3 2bdc23b5bf3d9f076ca1eb7051b09ac3 a3a783c06e1df0e269551f626ca696bf 909e8f72833416e036cfd29f43561fe2 43ca0039f9830c40e9067f3013db4ac2 2d54d817fb0e44e40e6874576eb17a8d 7caa7ecf06ca143a618203bd9798f6a4 3ef11dfded2c0079654f28ae83d15fac 7f7e266faef657ad7438c90ee882393c 67a069a5d418b0a20edfb276778ce570 179c6183113771710ae2d3d64c104870 2f01bf04723e908f8aee0de776c1f99b 6640898e7221f678881d6c0cba11fb9a 709a920233d6e50ea4f72c79ca761acc e70dda0bb906d585ba05d68a8197d6ce f1e29fc80907fb9657de73d0c92f3a5f 593fd8fcb423a0d3f8fd53d72a553044I don't know why you'd use Electrum though, and have all your addresses rely on a number 340282366920938463463374607431768211456 times smaller than a Bitcoin private key.




maxmint


December 08, 2013, 10:47:11 PM 

The problem is worse with private keys, because 2^{256} / 6^{100} ~ 0.177.
I've asked a similar question at the bitaddress thread. I too was concerned that 99 (6 sided) dice rolls would not give 256 bits of entropy. Casascius replied with this answer: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=43496.msg3798309#msg3798309So 99 dice rolls give about 255.91 of entropy. That's not exactly 256 but enough for me to consider this to be safe.




frito_mosquito
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December 09, 2013, 02:48:47 AM 

So 99 dice rolls give about 255.91 of entropy. That's not exactly 256 but enough for me to consider this to be safe.
Thanks. This is clearly the practical solution to this problem. I should have guessed that Casascius would have worked it out by now. Similarly 49 sixsided dice rolls give 126.66 bits of entropy, which is still probably more than enough. But I do think folks should be careful about blindly converting 100 digit base6 numbers to private keys, for the reasons mentioned above.




frito_mosquito
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December 09, 2013, 03:00:22 AM 

You should read the rest of this thread, as everything you've typed is talked about.
Sorry. I thought I read this thread fairly carefully, and did not see anyone mention the problems associated with 100digit base 6 numbers that are > 2 ^{256}. Fortunately, maxmint has pointed me in the right direction.




sardokan
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December 23, 2013, 11:29:42 PM 

I just ordered 32 hexidice Drop them all at a time, align them with something and you get 128 bits of entropy per drop. Nice electrum seed




sardokan
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December 23, 2013, 11:29:54 PM 

I just ordered 32 hexidice Drop them all at a time, align them with something and you get 128 bits of entropy per drop. Nice electrum seed




deepceleron
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January 19, 2014, 06:30:08 PM 

Welp, I have plugged away like a busy little beaver, and made a proper dice > paper wallet app.
>>>If I'm not mistaken, your program still adds randomness. I know, even false randomness won't 'destroy' true randomness, but could one opt out of this feature? If your dice roll information is truly random, I can't make it less random by scrambling it. The only drawback is that you can't independently verify that the exe isn't doing something nefarious unless you have source code. You can simply comment out the four scrambling functions near the end of the source (surrounding rolls_to_hex64), and you will get the base6 decoding of your dice as output mod 2 ^{256} (hindsight: could have been mod(N1) + 1). I would recommend this address generator instead, if you want to type dice into it you can; just the time you take between entering dice rolls will be enough entropy: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361092.0




