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Author Topic: The Space Industry: An example of why governments fail and freedom prevails.  (Read 10868 times)
Anonymous
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July 18, 2011, 12:09:08 AM
#1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8PlzDgFQMM

Jeff Greason tells us his story:

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As a student at Cal-tech...I had known about the O-ring problem that doomed Challenger. A lot of people had and it was no secret. And I remember saying the morning of the accident...that looks like an O-ring but that can't be, they already found that problem. Because it had never occured to me, in my wildest nightmares, that you would of found something like that and not fixed it.

One of my professors was on the accident investigation commitee for Challenger and what he found was that if it weren't the O-rings it would of just been something else. The shuttle was riddled with problems like that and the [government] culture at NASA at that time was not of fixing them, it was of explaining why they weren't that serious.

...that's when I knew no matter how great the accomplishments of NASA had been or would be and no matter how much money that congress gave them or didn't give them, they were never going to put people or people like me into space.
So, getting into space is hard ...but it's not that hard.

He goes onto discussing why people believe achieving common and easy space travel is impossible/impossibly expensive and why it's actually not:

Quote
[The cost of space travel] ...is not in the materials. Rockets are built out of aluminum just like airplanes. They're not built out of diamonds. So, where is it?

It's in the labor. It's in the labor to run an assembly-line for a big rocket, we use once, then it's gone; or it's in the people...who [refurbish a rocket piece-by-piece]. This takes about 10,000 people. It takes 3,000 people to run a production line for a rocket.

Now, an airliner [requires the same materials and fuel] a rocket does and it's just as big. And they are actually far more complicated than a rocket is but then we use that airliner 10,000 times during it's...life, at least and we operate it with less than 1/100th people than it takes to operate a rocket.

That's why it takes $100,000,000 [GOVERNMENT] dollars to put a person into orbit on a space shuttle and $100 [Capitalist] dollars to put them on the Boston to New York shuttle.

He goes onto cover safety in comparison to the private inception of basic flight:

Quote
Furthermore, as for safety, we've flown people to space less than 500 times... The Wright Brothers [Private] did more than 700 glider flights to get ready for their first powered flight attempted in 1903.

Quote
[We're in the very begginings of space travel] That's why I came into the rocket business. Because what we need is not magic. We just need rockets to go through the same competitive improvement process that aircraft have gone through and the technology we are missing is capitalism. That's what has been lacking in the space business. Its what makes everything else work in every arena of modern life.

He goes onto describe how his private space company has reached pinnacles in safe, sound and efficient rocket-based aircraft, bot through stolen funds but through private incentive and desire. In addition, to competition from similar companies.

The rocket business is not the cheapest and easiest way to make money. There is obviously other desires and value out there building this.


He begins the last section of his video with:

Quote
The things we had to do to make rockets work really are the same things that make society work: Competition, capitalism and free enterprise....

Most of human history is about the strong few ruling over the poverty-stricken many...[a progressing society] depends on creative destruction. It depends on allowing new ways of doing business to displace the old. It also depends on continously harnessing the creativity of people who may be outside the system...in short, it can't exist for long without freedom and that, in turn, rests upon the belief that life isn't a zero-sum game.

If you believe life is a zero-sum game, then to you it makes sense to defend what you have at all costs because any change must be for the worst, right? It may make sense to you that if you want something, you should go steal it. ...because what difference is there between making it and stealing it if life is a zero-sum game?

I don't believe that for a second.

Life is clearly better now than when I was younger and a study of history shows me that as long as civilization has been around... life has been getting better in measurable terms.

He goes on to describe that a greater future depends on looking to the great beyond. Not restraining ourselves to the status-quo.

Great speech. Great examples of reality.







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July 18, 2011, 03:25:23 AM
#2

Rockets need almost none of the same parts or fuels that a jet airliner needs, or even the same fuel. The reason rockets are difficult to make and are expensive is because of the exotic materials generally needed and the fact that rockets need a thrust to weight ratio of greater than one while carrying their own oxidising agents (for reference, even the most powerful commercial airliners have thrust to weight ratios of less than 0.4, if memory serves, relying on lift to gain altitude, something rockets physically can't do due to air thinning). This means for every kilo of fuel you're gonna need a kilo of oxidiser, essentially, which greatly reduces the fuel efficiency of rocket engines since to achieve the maximum energy output of any particular kilo of fuel it needs to carry another kilo of oxidiser with it.

Saying rockets use aluminium like everything else is also somewhat a lie since currently rockets only use aluminium becuase they are not designed to survive re-entry. If you look at any of the rockets actually designed to survive re-entry such as the return pod of a soyuz or the space shuttle you'd notice they're covered in a whole fuck ton of heat resistant composites, metals, and other fancy materials to survive the intense frictional heating. This is again pretty much why governments are wary about putting people into space. If those tiles get damaged its game over, since spacecraft are generally fail deadly due to the extreme conditions they need to endure, unlike aircraft which have been known to fly with 3 engines missing and holes in the fuselage to no ill effect other than passenger hysteria.

As for the whole "well aircraft don't cost lots of money because they're multiple use!!" that's because there is absolutely no workable single stage to orbit rocket at the moment. It'd be nice if we could jump in a rocket, fly to the moon and back without needing to shed dead weight such as empty fuel tanks but sadly no one has figured out how to. The space shuttle was specifically designed to try and be reusable as possible but still needed SRBs and an external fuel tank, both of which it has to shed during the flight in order to get into space. Rockets have to shed dead weight or as they are now they physically cannot get high enough into space to do anything. It's also completely wrong. Per unit, the Delta IV rocket costs almost half as much as an airbus A380, which is unsurprisingly because they are single use, whereas planes aren't. Hell, even the space shuttle only costs marginally more per launch than an airbus A380 costs to build.

Also for what its worth, his claims about "his private space company has reached pinnacles in safe, sound and efficient rocket-based aircraft" is kind of bogus when you consider that currently that consists of two rocket engines strapped to a commercially bought propeller powered aircraft, and the rocket plane that they have actually built can only reach approximate 70km up, which is far too low for any useful payload such as satalites or otherwise. The successor to that craft is apparantly going to be able to reach orbit! but sadly it's going to be two stage, which defeats the entire purpose of a rocket plane. His company also has one contract from NASA to design a rocket engine for a return stage from mars, something congress is never going to let happen with the US's national debt as it is now

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July 18, 2011, 03:31:23 AM
#3

Also, there's a huge market for moving people around the planet. Granted, there's also a huge untapped market for putting stuff in space, but it ain't nowhere near as big as the market for moving people around the planet. And thus, while we certainly have a demand to get stuff into space, it will never be able to take advantage of the economies of scale that are realizable in the airline industry.

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July 18, 2011, 03:58:14 AM
#4

Also, there's a huge market for moving people around the planet. Granted, there's also a huge untapped market for putting stuff in space, but it ain't nowhere near as big as the market for moving people around the planet. And thus, while we certainly have a demand to get stuff into space, it will never be able to take advantage of the economies of scale that are realizable in the airline industry.

Best way ever to be wrong: Say never.

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July 18, 2011, 03:59:25 AM
#5

It is highly doubtful humans will make it to the moon (or any other planet) again. Too much energy needed, not enough available.

NASA takes a lot on undeserved flack from the right in this country. They did/do pretty amazing stuff.

There's actually an argument to be made that PowerPoint helped cause the Challenger disaster

http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/powerpoint

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July 18, 2011, 04:14:42 AM
#6

It is highly doubtful humans will make it to the moon (or any other planet) again. Too much energy needed, not enough available.

Then we are doomed as a species.


Bullshit.

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July 18, 2011, 04:32:21 AM
#7

We aren't doomed.

But for better or worse, we're intimately connected with this planet, and we don't get to "escape it".

I think that the next 200,000 years of human life on this planet will look more similar to the first 200,000 years, than the last 200 or so. Only with a lot of interesting toys around for an ecotechnic society to build and develop with.

Regardless, I think it's much more likely in 200 years we'll have closer to 1 billion people on earth, than 10 billion.
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July 18, 2011, 04:33:02 AM
#8

Then we are doomed as a species.
Bullshit.

Personally, I think it's quite likely. At some point in the near future there will just be too many people and too little natural resources left. Maybe we would survive as a species but civilisation as it is will not.

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July 18, 2011, 04:35:37 AM
#9

It is highly doubtful humans will make it to the moon (or any other planet) again. Too much energy needed, not enough available.

I think it's almost certain humans will make it to the moon again. The Chinese government and cultural pride almost ensures they will get that done. And they are willing and can afford to write off the lost of a couple astronauts to achieve it.

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July 18, 2011, 04:37:42 AM
#10

too bad we don't have a bitcoin predictions market for these sorts of speculations Wink
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July 18, 2011, 04:38:25 AM
#11

we could have put man on mars instead of playing war in Iraq. In theory it would cost about the same.

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July 18, 2011, 04:46:21 AM
#12

We aren't doomed.

But for better or worse, we're intimately connected with this planet, and we don't get to "escape it".

It is a mathematical certainty that at some point, this planet is toast. Meteor strike, supervolcano, If noting else, The sun will bake the planet clean in about 4 billion years.

If we don't leave the nest, We will die.

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July 18, 2011, 04:04:42 PM
#13

Also for what its worth, his claims about "his private space company has reached pinnacles in safe, sound and efficient rocket-based aircraft" is kind of bogus when you consider that currently that consists of two rocket engines strapped to a commercially bought propeller powered aircraft, and the rocket plane that they have actually built can only reach approximate 70km up, which is far too low for any useful payload such as satalites or otherwise. The successor to that craft is apparantly going to be able to reach orbit! but sadly it's going to be two stage, which defeats the entire purpose of a rocket plane. His company also has one contract from NASA to design a rocket engine for a return stage from mars, something congress is never going to let happen with the US's national debt as it is now

you're thinking virgin galactic (makers of spaceshipone and two), which i agree are useless for anything other than rich tourists.

spaceX (the falcon rockets)actually has reached orbit twice.  out of 5 attempts.

they estimate about $4700/kilogram to orbit , but the shuttle had similar estimates early in that project, so i'm somewhat skeptical and will see if that early estimate bears any resemblance to reality after they've been doing regular launches for a few years.
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July 18, 2011, 08:11:09 PM
#14

Also for what its worth, his claims about "his private space company has reached pinnacles in safe, sound and efficient rocket-based aircraft" is kind of bogus when you consider that currently that consists of two rocket engines strapped to a commercially bought propeller powered aircraft, and the rocket plane that they have actually built can only reach approximate 70km up, which is far too low for any useful payload such as satalites or otherwise. The successor to that craft is apparantly going to be able to reach orbit! but sadly it's going to be two stage, which defeats the entire purpose of a rocket plane. His company also has one contract from NASA to design a rocket engine for a return stage from mars, something congress is never going to let happen with the US's national debt as it is now

you're thinking virgin galactic (makers of spaceshipone and two), which i agree are useless for anything other than rich tourists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCOR_Aerospace
http://www.xcor.com/products/index.html

No, I'm not.

In addition, looking at their engines now, all of them are fucking laughable, using low energy density fuels with relatively terrible oxidisers from a rocket point of view (N20 for example) This guy says he's the fucking pinnacle of rocket technology but looking at their company now it's all bluster and lies.

Anonymous
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July 18, 2011, 08:15:15 PM
#15

I don't think you all realize that they are gradually testing different technologies with these rockets. Not just boosters and propellants. It takes a lot of proof-of-concepts to convince investors and in the end it builds sounder products.
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July 18, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
#16

I don't think you all realize that they are gradually testing different technologies with these rockets. Not just boosters and propellants. It takes a lot of proof-of-concepts to convince investors and in the end it builds sounder products.

From their site I'm really failing to see anything that hasn't been proposed or done by another company before. Even their fancy spaceplane ideas NASA worked on for years before they cancelled the project due to cuts.

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July 19, 2011, 03:55:08 PM
#17

Someone needs to figure out how to combine a second-stage rocket engine with a first-stage MAGLEV propulsion track. Use cheaper nuclear electric power to accelerate these things to about 2000kmh up the side of a mountain, then let the rockets do the rest.

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July 19, 2011, 04:05:45 PM
#18

Someone needs to figure out how to combine a second-stage rocket engine with a first-stage MAGLEV propulsion track. Use cheaper nuclear electric power to accelerate these things to about 2000kmh up the side of a mountain, then let the rockets do the rest.

One problem I see here is that maglev might work well travelling on level ground/gentle slopes, it might not work at all if it has to fight gravity. The reason maglev trains can move so fast is because the propulsion only needs to fight air drag to move. As it is, it takes a lot of power to get a maglev vehicle up to speed and going up vertically would essentially mean doing that all the way. So it's not likely going to be able to hit 2000km/h, maybe not even anywhere close to the current train speed records.

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July 19, 2011, 04:31:40 PM
#19

Someone needs to figure out how to combine a second-stage rocket engine with a first-stage MAGLEV propulsion track. Use cheaper nuclear electric power to accelerate these things to about 2000kmh up the side of a mountain, then let the rockets do the rest.

One problem I see here is that maglev might work well travelling on level ground/gentle slopes, it might not work at all if it has to fight gravity. The reason maglev trains can move so fast is because the propulsion only needs to fight air drag to move. As it is, it takes a lot of power to get a maglev vehicle up to speed and going up vertically would essentially mean doing that all the way. So it's not likely going to be able to hit 2000km/h, maybe not even anywhere close to the current train speed records.


A dedicated nuclear or hydro plant with a capacitor stack may be enough. Also, the vehicle itself will not be heavy, since it won't have to carry the fuel and rocket shells with it (you'll only be moving the shuttle, not the booster rockets and giant tank).
Worse case, you can just fire the thing out of a tunnel, with a series of gas explosions behind it, like a gas gun. Still way more efficient, since the fuel is still stored on the ground, instead of being launched along with the vehicle.

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July 19, 2011, 05:00:31 PM
#20

Yup. there are Dozens of ways to get into space without carrying rockets up with you. The old, inefficient way is not the only way to do things.

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July 19, 2011, 05:27:36 PM
#21

Yup. there are Dozens of ways to get into space without carrying rockets up with you. The old, inefficient way is not the only way to do things.

Kind of a shame even the most basic of those cost a huge amount of money and would need trillions of dollars in infrastructure and research, and the materials needed for them are still well out of our hands. The only one which is even remotely feasable with current spaceflight technology is the launch loop, and even then it'd pretty much require huge international co-ordination to pull it off.

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July 19, 2011, 05:50:59 PM
#22

Yup. there are Dozens of ways to get into space without carrying rockets up with you. The old, inefficient way is not the only way to do things.

Kind of a shame even the most basic of those cost a huge amount of money and would need trillions of dollars in infrastructure and research, and the materials needed for them are still well out of our hands.

Materials for some, we've got. As for the funding, nothing a few weeks worth of the 'defense' budget couldn't supply.

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July 19, 2011, 05:57:19 PM
#23

I see people saying that it was correct to shut down the shuttle because of costs...

But Iraq war used 3 times the money that the shuttle project used since it exists. (yeah, development included...).

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July 19, 2011, 06:05:05 PM
#24

A dedicated nuclear or hydro plant with a capacitor stack may be enough. Also, the vehicle itself will not be heavy, since it won't have to carry the fuel and rocket shells with it (you'll only be moving the shuttle, not the booster rockets and giant tank).
Worse case, you can just fire the thing out of a tunnel, with a series of gas explosions behind it, like a gas gun. Still way more efficient, since the fuel is still stored on the ground, instead of being launched along with the vehicle.

This discussion just reminded me of a possibly silly idea from my high school day when asked to think of ways centrifugal (or was it centripetal) forces could be used. I didn't know maglev then but had this idea of a "box" attached to a very long and strong "metal" string and basically spun a space craft round and round until it was fast enough to let loose.

Bringing forward today, I wonder if a circular maglev track, possibly a "L" instead of flat to keep the vehicle from hitting the side, would be a more effective way than using a mountain. After all, it should be cheaper to build a big round track with a switchable track section to a launch ramp than build a very long one up somebody's mountain. So spin the vehicle up to speed, possibly at G forces that are more comfortable than what astronauts have to put up with at the moment since we could just spin more rounds to reach the target velocity, then slingshot it into the sky.

Maybe somebody who can do maths and physics better than me could figure out if it is even theoretically possible to reach orbit from an initial velocity at near ground.

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July 19, 2011, 06:11:06 PM
#25

This discussion just reminded me of a possibly silly idea from my high school day when asked to think of ways centrifugal (or was it centripetal) forces could be used. I didn't know maglev then but had this idea of a "box" attached to a very long and strong "metal" string and basically spun a space craft round and round until it was fast enough to let loose.

You are not alone: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Non-rocket_spacelaunch#Slingatron

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July 19, 2011, 06:27:42 PM
#26

We aren't doomed.

But for better or worse, we're intimately connected with this planet, and we don't get to "escape it".

It is a mathematical certainty that at some point, this planet is toast. Meteor strike, supervolcano, If noting else, The sun will bake the planet clean in about 4 billion years.

If we don't leave the nest, We will die.

Don't mean to derail the thread but I feel compelled to post this: Asteroid Impact

Still around.
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July 19, 2011, 06:29:30 PM
#27

This discussion just reminded me of a possibly silly idea from my high school day when asked to think of ways centrifugal (or was it centripetal) forces could be used. I didn't know maglev then but had this idea of a "box" attached to a very long and strong "metal" string and basically spun a space craft round and round until it was fast enough to let loose.

You are not alone: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Non-rocket_spacelaunch#Slingatron

lol nice to know it wasn't THAT silly an idea Cheesy

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July 19, 2011, 06:37:12 PM
#28

A dedicated nuclear or hydro plant with a capacitor stack may be enough. Also, the vehicle itself will not be heavy, since it won't have to carry the fuel and rocket shells with it (you'll only be moving the shuttle, not the booster rockets and giant tank).
Worse case, you can just fire the thing out of a tunnel, with a series of gas explosions behind it, like a gas gun. Still way more efficient, since the fuel is still stored on the ground, instead of being launched along with the vehicle.

This discussion just reminded me of a possibly silly idea from my high school day when asked to think of ways centrifugal (or was it centripetal) forces could be used. I didn't know maglev then but had this idea of a "box" attached to a very long and strong "metal" string and basically spun a space craft round and round until it was fast enough to let loose.

Bringing forward today, I wonder if a circular maglev track, possibly a "L" instead of flat to keep the vehicle from hitting the side, would be a more effective way than using a mountain. After all, it should be cheaper to build a big round track with a switchable track section to a launch ramp than build a very long one up somebody's mountain. So spin the vehicle up to speed, possibly at G forces that are more comfortable than what astronauts have to put up with at the moment since we could just spin more rounds to reach the target velocity, then slingshot it into the sky.

Maybe somebody who can do maths and physics better than me could figure out if it is even theoretically possible to reach orbit from an initial velocity at near ground.

From the ground you need to get 8.4km/s of velocity to get into low earth orbit. The G-forces alone on any length of circular track would kill the pilots and would probebly need to be made entirely of diamonds or something equally silly to withstand the forces.

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July 19, 2011, 06:39:54 PM
#29

It is a mathematical certainty that at some point, this planet is toast. Meteor strike, supervolcano, If noting else, The sun will bake the planet clean in about 4 billion years.

It's a mathematical certainty that at some point you will die. What's your point?
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July 19, 2011, 06:43:38 PM
#30

From the ground you need to get 8.4km/s of velocity to get into low earth orbit. The G-forces alone on any length of circular track would kill the pilots and would probebly need to be made entirely of diamonds or something equally silly to withstand the forces.

Why would that be since we're not trying to reach 8.4km/s within one round? It just needs to be a circular track with a switchable track section somewhere, like the way they switch train tracks, so that once the vehicle reaches the necessary velocity, the track is switched to the launch ramp section instead.


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July 19, 2011, 06:49:10 PM
#31

From the ground you need to get 8.4km/s of velocity to get into low earth orbit. The G-forces alone on any length of circular track would kill the pilots and would probebly need to be made entirely of diamonds or something equally silly to withstand the forces.

Why would that be since we're not trying to reach 8.4km/s within one round? It just needs to be a circular track with a switchable track section somewhere, like the way they switch train tracks, so that once the vehicle reaches the necessary velocity, the track is switched to the launch ramp section instead.



I don't think you understand how centripical forces work, the force you endure is related to the velocity you're moving in a circle, squared. Even on circle 10km in radius you'd have a force of some 560kn acting on a human body weighing 80kilograms, as well as acting on the walls of the craft and whatever it is thats accelerating it. The only reason it's practical with particles is because they weigh fuck all.

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July 19, 2011, 06:57:49 PM
#32

I don't think you understand how centripical forces work, the force you endure is related to the velocity you're moving in a circle, squared. Even on circle 10km in radius you'd have a force of some 560kn acting on a human body weighing 80kilograms, as well as acting on the walls of the craft and whatever it is thats accelerating it. The only reason it's practical with particles is because they weigh fuck all.

Right, that made me remember that things moving in a circle are constantly accelerating in a different direction at the current velocity. Guess that idea is silly after all Cheesy

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July 19, 2011, 07:04:39 PM
#33

Yup. there are Dozens of ways to get into space without carrying rockets up with you. The old, inefficient way is not the only way to do things.

Though being Konstantin Tsiolkovsky's great-great-great-grandson, I'm somewhat biased towards the multi-stage approach Cheesy

Also, I notice that article is missing the idea I read more recently about blasting stuff into space using underwater nukes... That would be extremely cheap compared to the other methods, and we already have plenty of materials, though people will complain about the radiation no doubt.

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July 19, 2011, 07:14:15 PM
#34

It is a mathematical certainty that at some point, this planet is toast. Meteor strike, supervolcano, If noting else, The sun will bake the planet clean in about 4 billion years.

It's a mathematical certainty that at some point you will die. What's your point?

If we're stuck here, we're doomed. You said we're not. My point is simple: You're wrong.

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July 19, 2011, 08:37:19 PM
#35

Do you believe you are personally "doomed" because you will eventually die?

Nevermind, this is philosophy question best discussed in another thread.

Back to the point, at what year do people think a human being will ever step foot on the moon again (or another planet). At what year do people think a human being not sent by a nation-state will?

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July 19, 2011, 08:47:57 PM
#36

Do you believe you are personally "doomed" because you will eventually die?

Nevermind, this is philosophy question best discussed in another thread.

Back to the point, at what year do people think a human being will ever step foot on the moon again (or another planet). At what year do people think a human being not sent by a nation-state will?

I, a human being, have to die, because my body will eventually break down.
We, the human species, do not have to die.

I don't see us as being more than 10 or 20 years from being back on the moon, at minimum. That foot will not be from a nation-state.

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July 19, 2011, 08:54:09 PM
#37

Do you believe you are personally "doomed" because you will eventually die?

Nevermind, this is philosophy question best discussed in another thread.

Back to the point, at what year do people think a human being will ever step foot on the moon again (or another planet). At what year do people think a human being not sent by a nation-state will?

I, a human being, have to die, because my body will eventually break down.
We, the human species, do not have to die.

I don't see us as being more than 10 or 20 years from being back on the moon, at minimum. That foot will not be from a nation-state.

I think you're underestimating how much rocketry costs.

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July 19, 2011, 08:56:50 PM
#38

I think you're underestimating how much rocketry costs.

I think you underestimate how badly Virgin wants to be in space. And as soon as someone's got a station, Someone else is going to want a moon base.

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July 19, 2011, 10:27:46 PM
#39

I think you're underestimating how much rocketry costs.

I think you underestimate how badly Virgin wants to be in space. And as soon as someone's got a station, Someone else is going to want a moon base.

The price for a Virgin Galactic ticket to just over 100km in space, Not at an orbital velocity, is 200,000 dollars per person. You need to be at 200kmish even for low earth orbit and that's not even including cargo such as the space station that you want to put up there, which needs to be radiation shielded, micrometeorite shielded and vacuum shielded, two of the three of which need stupidly powerful radar and Solar observation stations, in addition to putting the damn thing up there in the first place.

In conclusion it's going to be fucking expensive.

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July 19, 2011, 10:33:05 PM
#40

In conclusion it's going to be fucking expensive.

No shit? Ever think about how much money we could save simply by not blowing people up every day?

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July 19, 2011, 10:38:32 PM
#41

I don't think a lot of you realize that things aren't expensive forever.
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July 19, 2011, 10:55:55 PM
#42

I don't think a lot of you realize that things aren't expensive forever.

Heh... Indeed, I had skipped that fact. Thanks for reminding us, atlas, that Today's multimillion-dollar composite material is tomorrows draperies.

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July 19, 2011, 11:34:19 PM
#43

In conclusion it's going to be fucking expensive.

No shit? Ever think about how much money we could save simply by not blowing people up every day?

Hmm yes virgin routinely spends all of it's money on blowing people up. If you're gonna make a comparison about how much virgin wants a space station don't then fall back onto the argument that somehow the government spending less on defence will help that.

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July 19, 2011, 11:38:16 PM
#44

In conclusion it's going to be fucking expensive.

No shit? Ever think about how much money we could save simply by not blowing people up every day?

Hmm yes virgin routinely spends all of it's money on blowing people up. If you're gonna make a comparison about how much virgin wants a space station don't then fall back onto the argument that somehow the government spending less on defence will help that.

Where, exactly, do you think that money, not to mention the resources, come from? Stolen from the private sector.

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July 20, 2011, 02:45:13 PM
#45

I think you're underestimating how much rocketry costs.
I think you underestimate how badly Virgin wants to be in space

"space", sure, orbit, nope.

they have nothing even on the drawing board for getting to orbit.  spaceshipthree will basically act as an ultra-high altitude, ultra fast, private jet.

virgin galactic is useless for any practical purpose, yet it's being held up as a grand success of private industry.

if you want a private company to crow about, try spaceX, which actually had got stuff into orbit.  but then, the vast majority of their money comes from launch contracts with .... NASA and the US air force!  and their launch facilities are borrowed from.....NASA and the US air force!
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July 20, 2011, 03:09:03 PM
#46

In conclusion it's going to be fucking expensive.

No shit? Ever think about how much money we could save simply by not blowing people up every day?

Hmm yes virgin routinely spends all of it's money on blowing people up. If you're gonna make a comparison about how much virgin wants a space station don't then fall back onto the argument that somehow the government spending less on defence will help that.

Where, exactly, do you think that money, not to mention the resources, come from? Stolen from the private sector.

I forgot how the USA entire space budget is paid solely by virgin group, despite their complicated series of offshore trusts that mitigate a huge portion of the tax they should be paying.

And yeah, currently almost all space development is either paid for, contracted by or done on behalf of nasa, simply because they have money to spend on it and because any sort of space research is fucking expensive.

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July 20, 2011, 07:01:06 PM
#47

In conclusion it's going to be fucking expensive.

No shit? Ever think about how much money we could save simply by not blowing people up every day?

Hmm yes virgin routinely spends all of it's money on blowing people up. If you're gonna make a comparison about how much virgin wants a space station don't then fall back onto the argument that somehow the government spending less on defence will help that.

Where, exactly, do you think that money, not to mention the resources, come from? Stolen from the private sector.

I forgot how the USA entire space budget is paid solely by virgin group, despite their complicated series of offshore trusts that mitigate a huge portion of the tax they should be paying.

And yeah, currently almost all space development is either paid for, contracted by or done on behalf of nasa, simply because they have money to spend on it and because any sort of space research is fucking expensive.

You know, it's funny. Even though you quoted my exact words, you still try to put words in my mouth. Never said it all came out of Richard Branson's pocket. But it does come out of the pocket of the people who would be willing to give it to Branson for a ticket into space, and as I said previously, most of that money gets wasted blowing brown people up. If they either stopped stealing it, or stopped wasting it, we'd be back on the moon in a decade, easy.

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July 20, 2011, 10:11:31 PM
#48

I don't think a lot of you realize that things aren't expensive forever.

Except energy. Which has been extremely cheap for about 200 years and now will start getting more expensive for the rest of your (and my) lives.
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July 20, 2011, 10:17:52 PM
#49

I don't think a lot of you realize that things aren't expensive forever.

Except energy. Which has been extremely cheap for about 200 years and now will start getting more expensive for the rest of your (and my) lives.

Really? 'cuz it seems to me, that there's this huge fusion reactor, just spewing out energy, and all we have to do is start catching it.

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July 21, 2011, 12:04:56 AM
#50

I don't think a lot of you realize that things aren't expensive forever.

Except energy. Which has been extremely cheap for about 200 years and now will start getting more expensive for the rest of your (and my) lives.

shame the very specific forms of energy rockets need to operate on is not cheap, plentiful or safe.

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July 21, 2011, 02:44:10 PM
#51

A missile used to kill Libyan children can pay the wages of 10 teachers for a year.


If the US used the money to pay teachers, do not you think that US would have soon sufficient technology to go to Jupiter even?

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July 21, 2011, 06:29:57 PM
#52

I don't think a lot of you realize that things aren't expensive forever.

Except energy. Which has been extremely cheap for about 200 years and now will start getting more expensive for the rest of your (and my) lives.

shame the very specific forms of energy rockets need to operate on is not cheap, plentiful or safe.

Aaaactually... we have plenty of salt water, so all we need is to drop some wires into it, hook it up to a power source (solar/wind/whatever), and we can get hydrogen and oxygen, which make up the main (non-booster) rocket fuel used in the space shuttle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_propellant#History_2
Did I mention Konstantin Tsiolkovsky is my gramps? (+3xGreat) Cheesy

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July 21, 2011, 06:45:56 PM
#53

Did I mention Konstantin Tsiolkovsky is my gramps? (+3xGreat) Cheesy


Yes you did but you are going to sound like you're actually his broken vinyl recording if you mention it again! Cheesy


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July 25, 2011, 03:49:29 PM
#54

Of course the irony here (which is of course completely lost on a pup such as yourself) Atlas is that you are typing this on a computer and sending it over the Internet for us to see.  Computer technology sprung out of NASA research (invented the first microprocessor) while you can pen a letter to DARPA thanking them for the Internet.


I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 25, 2011, 08:22:09 PM
#55

Of course the irony here (which is of course completely lost on a pup such as yourself) Atlas is that you are typing this on a computer and sending it over the Internet for us to see.  Computer technology sprung out of NASA research (invented the first microprocessor) while you can pen a letter to DARPA thanking them for the Internet.

Which if they still had ahold of, would still be Green-on-black text only.

And Dialup.

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July 25, 2011, 09:20:38 PM
#56

Of course the irony here (which is of course completely lost on a pup such as yourself) Atlas is that you are typing this on a computer and sending it over the Internet for us to see.  Computer technology sprung out of NASA research (invented the first microprocessor) while you can pen a letter to DARPA thanking them for the Internet.

Which if they still had ahold of, would still be Green-on-black text only.

And Dialup.

Your Point: that government doesn't commoditize technology well which is best left to the private sector.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be invented first.

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 25, 2011, 09:41:21 PM
#57

Of course the irony here (which is of course completely lost on a pup such as yourself) Atlas is that you are typing this on a computer and sending it over the Internet for us to see.  Computer technology sprung out of NASA research (invented the first microprocessor) while you can pen a letter to DARPA thanking them for the Internet.

Which if they still had ahold of, would still be Green-on-black text only.

And Dialup.

Your Point: that government doesn't commoditize technology well which is best left to the private sector.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be invented first.

Your point: That only Government can come up with new technology.

Patently false.

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July 25, 2011, 09:58:37 PM
#58

Your point: That only Government can come up with new technology.

Patently false.

a great many things we use daily were invented at a government mandated basic science research institute, namely bell labs.  said labs now focus on "immediately marketable technologies", rather the basic science and material physics research they once did.

- the transistor
- the photovoltic cell
- the microwave radio relay
- the concept of the laser and several specific types of laser.
- the MOSFET transistor
- the CCD sensor
- the C programming language and UNIX
- fibre optics
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July 25, 2011, 10:12:39 PM
#59

Your point: That only Government can come up with new technology.

Patently false.

a great many things we use daily were invented at a government mandated basic science research institute, namely bell labs.  said labs now focus on "immediately marketable technologies", rather the basic science and material physics research they once did.

And a great many MORE things were invented privately. Such as the pen that started this whole line of reasoning, and FAR too many more to list. Please read my statement again, I've bolded the relevant section.

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July 25, 2011, 10:51:25 PM
#60

Your point: That only Government can come up with new technology.

Patently false.

a great many things we use daily were invented at a government mandated basic science research institute, namely bell labs.  said labs now focus on "immediately marketable technologies", rather the basic science and material physics research they once did.

And a great many MORE things were invented privately. Such as the pen that started this whole line of reasoning, and FAR too many more to list. Please read my statement again, I've bolded the relevant section.

There is no reason to conclude that just because the government helped fund certain endeavors or because the government grants private monopolies to inventors via patents, that therefore these things would never have been invented without the government.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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July 26, 2011, 03:50:32 AM
#61

Of course the irony here (which is of course completely lost on a pup such as yourself) Atlas is that you are typing this on a computer and sending it over the Internet for us to see.  Computer technology sprung out of NASA research (invented the first microprocessor) while you can pen a letter to DARPA thanking them for the Internet.

Which if they still had ahold of, would still be Green-on-black text only.

And Dialup.

Your Point: that government doesn't commoditize technology well which is best left to the private sector.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be invented first.

Your point: That only Government can come up with new technology.

Patently false.

That's pretty great how you intentionally misread his comment just half a page after accusing him of putting words in your mouth!

His obvious point was that commercial endeavors tend to focus on things that they can start selling now or in a year or two or whatever instead of the hard science that leads to amazing things, but may take a decade or two to show concrete results. Or may never show them, a terrifying prospect if your only objective is profit. And that's absolutely right. The list he posted contains some of the most significant discoveries of the last 60 years.

Quote from: em3rgentOrdr
There is no reason to conclude that just because the government helped fund certain endeavors or because the government grants private monopolies to inventors via patents, that therefore these things would never have been invented without the government.

There's absolutely a reason to conclude that. The one just mentioned. Corporations are really great at taking existing technology and putting a clock in it, and not so great at coming up with world-changing technology through pure research.

                                                                               
                
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                              ,,╓╓█▓▄▌   █▌    ▐█U                             
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July 26, 2011, 03:55:55 AM
#62

There's absolutely a reason to conclude that. The one just mentioned. Corporations are really great at taking existing technology and putting a clock in it, and not so great at coming up with world-changing technology through pure research.

Myrkul wears some seriously opaque blinders. He will conveniently forget your point within a a few minutes after reading it. Debating him is pointless.

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July 26, 2011, 03:58:50 AM
#63

There's absolutely a reason to conclude that. The one just mentioned. Corporations are really great at taking existing technology and putting a clock in it, and not so great at coming up with world-changing technology through pure research.

Uh huh. You keep telling yourself that.


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July 26, 2011, 04:03:39 AM
#64

Seriously? Dude names the most amazing inventions of our time and the best you have to bring to the table is something invented in 1880? That was heavily based on decades of prior research in the first place?

                                                                               
                
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                              ,,╓╓█▓▄▌   █▌    ▐█U                             
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July 26, 2011, 04:06:42 AM
#65

Seriously? Dude names the most amazing inventions of our time and the best you have to bring to the table is something invented in 1880? That was heavily based on decades of prior research in the first place?

Excuse me, I don't have hours upon hours to compose a post to people whose opinions, ultimately mean absolutely squat to me.

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July 26, 2011, 04:08:12 AM
#66

Excuse me, I don't have hours upon hours to compose a post to people whose opinions, ultimately mean absolutely squat to me.

Fuck you, asshole.

You demand that I respond with huge explanations regarding what should be obvious. So don't be a fucking hypocrite. Oh, and you're naive and your stupid half baked ideas are just that: half baked.


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July 26, 2011, 04:11:50 AM
#67

Myrkul wears some seriously opaque blinders. He will conveniently forget your point within a a few minutes after reading it. Debating him is pointless.

Quote from: mykrul
Excuse me, I don't have hours upon hours to compose a post to people whose opinions, ultimately mean absolutely squat to me.

Yeah, I see what you mean, ascent. Mykrul, I really don't see how it should take you "hours upon hours" to come up with a short list to counter the one already posted... if that list exists, anyway.

If you don't want to even try to honestly debate this stuff, why are you posting about it?

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 04:12:38 AM
#68

Excuse me, I don't have hours upon hours to compose a post to people whose opinions, ultimately mean absolutely squat to me.

Fuck you, asshole.

Love you too.  Kiss

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July 26, 2011, 04:24:41 AM
#69

Yeah, I see what you mean, ascent. Mykrul, I really don't see how it should take you "hours upon hours" to come up with a short list to counter the one already posted... if that list exists, anyway.

If you don't want to even try to honestly debate this stuff, why are you posting about it?

You're right. It wouldn't. But all the same, I don't have the mental cycles to expend digging up privately funded research projects.

And the reason I went back to 1880? It was the surest way to find something I could be certain had no government intervention.

That was when the really big stuff was happening, anyway, the steam locomotive, the light bulb, the telegraph, all the technologies our current ones are based on.

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July 26, 2011, 04:31:26 AM
#70

But all the same, I don't have the mental cycles to expend digging up privately funded research projects.

But I'm supposed to engage in untold hours and mental cycles in regurgitating cases, examples and logical arguments explaining how your model has some serious defects in it when I can just point you to some well written books which provide numerous examples of the problems plaguing our planet today?

I seem to recall on numerous occasions pointing you to some literature, and each and every fucking time, you demanded that I argue and point out these things step by step.

Hypocrite. 

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July 26, 2011, 04:39:52 AM
#71

But all the same, I don't have the mental cycles to expend digging up privately funded research projects.

But I'm supposed to engage in untold hours and mental cycles in regurgitating cases, examples and logical arguments explaining how your model has some serious defects in it when I can just point you to some well written books which provide numerous examples of the problems plaguing our planet today?

I seem to recall on numerous occasions pointing you to some literature, and each and every fucking time, you demanded that I argue and point out these things step by step.

Hypocrite. 

You are saying 'my' system is flawed.
I ask Why.
You say, It's in this book.


I am saying "Government is not the only people doing research"
You're asking me to research, and find out which projects are funded how.
I say, "no".

If I had all of this in my head, it would be a simple matter to regurgitate it. It's not, I'd have to look it up, and for that matter, look up where to look it up. Doesn't sound like my idea of a fun evening. All I'm asking is that you explain your position, something which I have created 3 threads to do for mine. So. Whine all you want. I don't feel like wasting my time on you any more.

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July 26, 2011, 04:49:44 AM
#72

It's easy to be married to an ideology when you purposefully ignore any evidence contrary to it, but it certainly doesn't mean anyone is going to respect your ideas or even take you seriously.

                                                                               
                
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                              ,,╓╓█▓▄▌   █▌    ▐█U                             
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July 26, 2011, 04:51:12 AM
#73

You are saying 'my' system is flawed.
I ask Why.
You say, It's in this book.


I am saying "Government is not the only people doing research"
You're asking me to research, and find out which projects are funded how.
I say, "no".

If I had all of this in my head, it would be a simple matter to regurgitate it. It's not, I'd have to look it up, and for that matter, look up where to look it up. Doesn't sound like my idea of a fun evening. All I'm asking is that you explain your position, something which I have created 3 threads to do for mine. So. Whine all you want. I don't feel like wasting my time on you any more.

Your system is not proven. The burden lies upon you to show how it can work at every objection put forth against it. This is your system that you want. You're not being scientific, and that makes your argument very flimsy.

There are countless issues that you have just brushed aside. You're not interested in making your theory strong. You're only interested in making it sound like it's more developed than it is. We can discuss discrimination, ownership, sustainability, the environment, technology, safety, the list goes on. And every issue - you think you've won - but you haven't. You've only blustered your way through, happy that you think you've presented a formidable defense, but if you'd take the blinders off, you'd realize how woefully short your arguments come up against numerous objections to it.

Since this thread is about space, let's talk space. Here goes...

Compare the accomplishments of NASA to privately funded space accomplishments.

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July 26, 2011, 04:54:38 AM
#74

It's easy to be married to an ideology when you purposefully ignore any evidence contrary to it, but it certainly doesn't mean anyone is going to respect your ideas or even take you seriously.

I'm still waiting for him to present any evidence. I don't have the time to waste wading through treatises when he could simply point out the flaws, if he actually understood them.

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July 26, 2011, 05:01:10 AM
#75

I'm still waiting for him to present any evidence. I don't have the time to waste wading through treatises when he could simply point out the flaws, if he actually understood them.

People have constantly pointed out the flaws of your beliefs in this thread and others, and everything you can't answer, you just ignore. Or tell them it would be too much work to defend your own beliefs. I don't know who you think you're fooling, except possibly yourself.

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 05:02:17 AM
#76

I'm still waiting for him to present any evidence. I don't have the time to waste wading through treatises when he could simply point out the flaws, if he actually understood them.

While you're waiting, be constructive and engage in that comparison I requested of you.

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July 26, 2011, 05:04:52 AM
#77

I'm still waiting for him to present any evidence. I don't have the time to waste wading through treatises when he could simply point out the flaws, if he actually understood them.

People have constantly pointed out the flaws of your beliefs in this thread and others, and everything you can't answer, you just ignore. Or tell them it would be too much work to defend your own beliefs. I don't know who you think you're fooling, except possibly yourself.

Point out the flaws that I have 'skipped', and I'll answer them. You may want to do so in another thread, though. This one is getting in danger of being derailed.

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July 26, 2011, 05:07:43 AM
#78

Point out the flaws that I have 'skipped', and I'll answer them. You may want to do so in another thread, though. This one is getting in danger of being derailed.

I have been pointing out flaws for about a month now. That's very hypocritical of you to demand that we point out flaws (which we have been doing) while you claim you don't have the mental cycles to engage in the defense of your own theory. Now, about that list I requested from you...

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July 26, 2011, 05:12:23 AM
#79

So. Whine all you want. I don't feel like wasting my time on you any more.

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July 26, 2011, 05:16:10 AM
#80

Point out the flaws that I have 'skipped', and I'll answer them. You may want to do so in another thread, though. This one is getting in danger of being derailed.

If you didn't answer them the first time, why would anyone ever think you'd do it the second time?  You refuse to do any work whatsoever to come up with arguments that people will read and respond to honestly, yet at the same time you ask others to put in time and effort to argue with you while admitting that their opinions mean "absolutely squat" to you and that you won't take them seriously.

I mean, what the hell?

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 05:22:40 AM
#81

So. Whine all you want. I don't feel like wasting my time on you any more.

I'll take that as your way of admitting you you've been had. I'll admit, if you did compose a list of private enterprise accomplishments in space vs. those of NASA, it would be pretty imbalanced. Kind of hard to compete with Moon landings, Mars rovers, Voyagers, Pioneers, Kepler, Cassini, Galileo, New Horizons, etc., etc., etc...

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July 26, 2011, 05:24:09 AM
#82


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwSSUqbR0IA

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July 26, 2011, 05:26:48 AM
#83

Point out the flaws that I have 'skipped', and I'll answer them. You may want to do so in another thread, though. This one is getting in danger of being derailed.

If you didn't answer them the first time, why would anyone ever think you'd do it the second time?  You refuse to do any work whatsoever to come up with arguments that people will read and respond to honestly, yet at the same time you ask others to put in time and effort to argue with you while admitting that their opinions mean "absolutely squat" to you and that you won't take them seriously.

I mean, what the hell?

You have a point, and I did speak somewhat hastily, before. Ultimately, however, whether you are convinced that coercing people is not the best way to get your goals accomplished affects me not at all. That said, I am willing to defend my position to you, if you are willing to look up the points you say I skipped, and post them in another thread. I will address them, point by point. I'm willing to wager you won't, though.

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July 26, 2011, 05:29:16 AM
#84

So. Whine all you want. I don't feel like wasting my time on you any more.

I'll take that as your way of admitting you you've been had. I'll admit, if you did compose a list of private enterprise accomplishments in space vs. those of NASA, it would be pretty imbalanced. Kind of hard to compete with Moon landings, Mars rovers, Voyagers, Pioneers, Kepler, Cassini, Galileo, New Horizons, etc., etc., etc...

Yes, it is rather hard to compete with an agency that has all the money (which it stole from you) and is willing to shoot you down if you go up with out permission.

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July 26, 2011, 05:41:03 AM
#85

Yes, it is rather hard to compete with an agency that has all the money (which it stole from you) and is willing to shoot you down if you go up with out permission.

Thank you for making my point. So you then concede that taxation results in the collective result of accomplishing significant things which private enterprise cannot accomplish nor chooses to accomplish of its own volition. Once again, we see that there are things which a purely privatized model normally excludes, since the bottom line takes precedence over, say, discovering man's place in the universe, and probing the fundamental nature of the cosmos.

But this example (space exploration) serves to demonstrate a common flaw in a purely privatized model in numerous other aspects as well, the specifics of which are left as an exercise for the astute reader to discern on his own.

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July 26, 2011, 05:42:29 AM
#86

You have a point, and I did speak somewhat hastily, before. Ultimately, however, whether you are convinced that coercing people is not the best way to get your goals accomplished affects me not at all. That said, I am willing to defend my position to you, if you are willing to look up the points you say I skipped, and post them in another thread. I will address them, point by point. I'm willing to wager you won't, though.

I'm not making a "Hey mykrul, answer the stuff you ignored the first time" thread, because I really don't feel like all of that effort would be worth it for someone who has a history of ignoring anything contrary to his beliefs, although I find it interesting that you consider government actions to be coercion, but not corporate actions. Hell, at least government coercion is sometimes for the benefit of maintaining an orderly society and making sure your food is safe to eat, whereas the corporate version is about nothing but raw profit for a select few.

You really do come off as a teenager who thinks he knows everything about everything (so why even bother to learn more?) and is really eager to share his ideas - until someone tries to disprove them, at which point he either panics or loses interest entirely.

Quote
Yes, it is rather hard to compete with an agency that has all the money (which it stole from you)

Yeah okay Atlas. Next you can horribly insult everyone who ever suffered under slavery by comparing those heinous abuses to someone taking a cut of your pay to maintain the roads you drive on. Because that's always funny in an incredibly offensive/tone-deaf way.

                                                                               
                
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                                     ▄▄███▀▀╙      ▄██  ▓█                     
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                              ,,╓╓█▓▄▌   █▌    ▐█U                             
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July 26, 2011, 05:50:38 AM
#87

Yes, it is rather hard to compete with an agency that has all the money (which it stole from you) and is willing to shoot you down if you go up with out permission.

Thank you for making my point. So you then concede that taxation results in the collective result of accomplishing significant things which private enterprise cannot accomplish nor chooses to accomplish of its own volition. Once again, we see that there are things which a purely privatized model normally excludes, since the bottom line takes precedence over, say, discovering man's place in the universe, and probing the fundamental nature of the cosmos.

But this example (space exploration) serves to demonstrate a common flaw in a purely privatized model in numerous other aspects as well, the specifics of which are left as an exercise for the astute reader to discern on his own.

Where in the hell did you get that? You even quoted, word for word what I said! And none of that bullshit is in there.

I'm not making a "Hey mykrul, answer the stuff you ignored the first time" thread

Shit, knew I should've put money on it.

Quote
Yes, it is rather hard to compete with an agency that has all the money (which it stole from you)

Yeah okay Atlas. Next you can horribly insult everyone who ever suffered under slavery by comparing those heinous abuses to someone taking a cut of your pay to maintain the roads you drive on. Because that's always funny in an incredibly offensive/tone-deaf way.

It's not the roads I drive on that I'm complaining about. It's the roads I don't drive on. Tell me taxation isn't theft, though. Go on, try.

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July 26, 2011, 05:51:13 AM
#88


It's an airplane with a rocket that launches from underneath a wing, and it cannot even achieve orbit. Didn't the Air Force do that back in the '50s with the X-15? Compare that airplane, to say, the Voyagers, which have been operating for about 35 years, one of which flew by Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune and Uranus, and is still operating to this day, the furthest man made object ever.

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July 26, 2011, 05:53:46 AM
#89

Where in the hell did you get that? You even quoted, word for word what I said! And none of that bullshit is in there.

It is in there. You stated that it's hard to compete with an agency that has all the money due to taxation. You are basically stating that the tax model allows for an organization to exist which can accomplish things which private enterprise cannot. That's what you're saying.

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July 26, 2011, 05:55:12 AM
#90

Where in the hell did you get that? You even quoted, word for word what I said! And none of that bullshit is in there.

It is in there. You stated that it's hard to compete with an agency that has all the money due to taxation. You are basically stating that the tax model allows for an organization to exist which can accomplish things which private enterprise cannot. That's what you're saying.

No, I'm saying that broke people can't build rockets, especially when they'd get shot down by the people who stole all the money.

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July 26, 2011, 05:57:16 AM
#91

No, I'm saying that broke people can't build rockets, especially when they'd get shot down by the people who stole all the money.

Who is broke?

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July 26, 2011, 06:03:40 AM
#92

It's not the roads I drive on that I'm complaining about. It's the roads I don't drive on. Tell me taxation isn't theft, though. Go on, try.

Because if you only paid for the roads that you did drive on, there would be a tollbooth every hundred feet and the entire thing would be enourmously impractical and frustrating? There's a reason people call libertarians selfish and unconcerned for anyone else, and that's because it echoes in your every statement. Who cares about the unemployed as long as I have a job? Who cares about a social safety net as long as I have rich parents? Who cares about health care as long as I don't currently have any health problems? And on, ad infinitum. As a philosophy, as a political ideology, it's self-centered and short-sighted to the point of absurdity. It treats capitalism as some kind of benevolent god that can do no wrong, and when it does do wrong, blame is shifted onto governments, victims, and anyone else standing in the crossfire.

Here, have a quote from Eugene Debs:

"Now my friends, I am opposed to the system of society in which we live today, not because I lack the natural equipment to do for myself but because I am not satisfied to make myself comfortable knowing that there are thousands of my fellow men who suffer for the barest necessities of life. We were taught under the old ethic that man's business on this earth was to look out for himself. That was the ethic of the jungle; the ethic of the wild beast. Take care of yourself, no matter what may become of your fellow man. Thousands of years ago the question was asked; "Am I my brother's keeper?" That question has never yet been answered in a way that is satisfactory to civilized society.

Yes, I am my brother's keeper. I am under a moral obligation to him that is inspired, not by any maudlin sentimentality but by the higher duty I owe myself. What would you think me if I were capable of seating myself at a table and gorging myself with food and saw about me the children of my fellow beings starving to death."


                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 06:08:38 AM
#93

No, I'm saying that broke people can't build rockets, especially when they'd get shot down by the people who stole all the money.

Who is broke?

You continue to ignore the most important point: They shoot you down.

NASA had a monopoly on space travel, enforced by the Air Force, until very recently. Not to mention ownership, enforced by the army, of all the good launch spots in the US. So, the fact that the money to fund them came from the pockets of the people who might compete is really just icing.

Yes, I am my brother's keeper. I am under a moral obligation to him that is inspired, not by any maudlin sentimentality but by the higher duty I owe myself. What would you think me if I were capable of seating myself at a table and gorging myself with food and saw about me the children of my fellow beings starving to death."

All well and good, but I am not your brother's keeper, though you may be. Why are you so generous with other people's money?

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July 26, 2011, 06:10:54 AM
#94

You continue to ignore the most important point: They shoot you down.

Maybe. I'm not so certain about floating launchpads in the Pacific. But you're missing the point as well. That point is there is no financial gain to be had for private enterprise to send out a Voyager spacecraft.

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July 26, 2011, 06:19:55 AM
#95

All well and good, but I am not your brother's keeper, though you may be. Why are you so generous with other people's money?

Because the policies you advocate are unquestionably the worst thing you can do for the poor. You'll complain all day about a government taking 15% of your paycheck to feed the poor and a million other tangible public services, but you'll never question the employer who can easily afford to pay you 50% more, but refuses in order that he may have even more profits for himself.  This is the history of capitalism from day one. It always works out like that, and yet somehow the kind of coercion that actually benefits you is more objectionable than the kind that makes a rich man richer and does nothing for you. I just don't understand that mentality at all.

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 06:23:41 AM
#96

You continue to ignore the most important point: They shoot you down.

Maybe. I'm not so certain about floating launchpads in the Pacific. But you're missing the point as well. That point is there is no financial gain to be had for private enterprise to send out a Voyager spacecraft.


Well, right now, probably not. But you again suppose that people would be wholly focused on monetary goals if not for the benevolent hand of government... in their wallet. That's not true. Lofty scientific goals would still be achievable, because I, for one, am passionate about space exploration, and I know I'm not alone. If I asked - and there's a key word, asked - I know I'd get the money. The things that government has done that come as a public good are not because of the taxation model, but despite it. When you don't have to ask, you can get a lot of things done that people don't like, too.

It always works out like that, and yet somehow the kind of coercion that actually benefits you is more objectionable than the kind that makes a rich man richer and does nothing for you. I just don't understand that mentality at all.

I don't see any coercion in the employer/employee model. Could you point out where it is?

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July 26, 2011, 06:24:20 AM
#97

Because the policies you advocate are unquestionably the worst thing you can do for the poor. You'll complain all day about a government taking 15% of your paycheck to feed the poor and a million other tangible public services, but you'll never question the employer who can easily afford to pay you 50% more, but refuses in order that he may have even more profits for himself.  This is the history of capitalism from day one. It always works out like that, and yet somehow the kind of coercion that actually benefits you is more objectionable than the kind that makes a rich man richer and does nothing for you. I just don't understand that mentality at all.

Not only that, I've gone back and forth with him how corporations plunder the environment to make their bottom lines black, pushing interminably further out until there will be nothing left. The CEO wants to make as much money as he can in ten years, and he needs to satisfy the shareholders, and after that, well, it just doesn't matter. And this continues inexorably in such a way that the debts we incur with the planet cannot be paid back.

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July 26, 2011, 06:36:11 AM
#98

I don't see any coercion in the employer/employee model. Could you point out where it is?

Well, you're basically at their mercy, and doubly so in these cyclical high-unemployment scenarios that seem to be part and parcel of the capitalist experience. Corporate productivity has gone through the roof over the past three years as workers were laid off using the economy as an excuse, and the existing workers made to work even harder. As a result, corporate profits have skyrocketed, while worker wages have actually decreased. These people are working even harder at their jobs, making their employers even more money, and they're getting paychecks that are even smaller. How is that not exploitation?

You have little or no power to negotiate wages and benefits with a multinational corporation worth billions when you're just a regular guy who needs a job. So you have to take what they offer. And if not them, some other company that works the same way.

And then you have all of this anti-tax, anti-workers rights, anti-mimimum wage propaganda floating around, and guess who's responsible for that? The same corporations who are trying to distract the public from the fact that they aren't paying decent wages anymore! Even the dumbest person will realize that his paycheck just doesn't go as far these days, but if you convince them that high taxes are the reason, and you manage to make them forget that taxes have actually been going down for three decades now, he's a lot less likely to start blaming you.

All of this is dishonest, coercive, and just plain wrong.

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 07:02:31 AM
#99

To avoid any claim of 'Avoiding issues', I'll address each paragraph independently.

Well, you're basically at their mercy, and doubly so in these cyclical high-unemployment scenarios that seem to be part and parcel of the capitalist experience. Corporate productivity has gone through the roof over the past three years as workers were laid off using the economy as an excuse, and the existing workers made to work even harder. As a result, corporate profits have skyrocketed, while worker wages have actually decreased. These people are working even harder at their jobs, making their employers even more money, and they're getting paychecks that are even smaller. How is that not exploitation?
You're neglecting the facts that 1: we are not operating in a capitalist system. We are currently operating in a Fascist system, by which the government works in cooperation with Corporations, themselves creations of the government, to control the economy. Without the minimum wage, unemployment would go down, probably to 0 involuntary unemployment, which by itself would give the workers more bargaining power.
You have little or no power to negotiate wages and benefits with a multinational corporation worth billions when you're just a regular guy who needs a job. So you have to take what they offer. And if not them, some other company that works the same way.
Unions would further increase worker bargaining power (labor unions, not trade unions, there is a distinct and important difference) to the point where they are roughly equal to the people hiring them. Added to the fact that without the government to shield them, the CEOs would actually be liable for their company's actions, life starts to look a little better, eh?
And then you have all of this anti-tax, anti-workers rights, anti-minimum wage propaganda floating around, and guess who's responsible for that? The same corporations who are trying to distract the public from the fact that they aren't paying decent wages anymore! Even the dumbest person will realize that his paycheck just doesn't go as far these days, but if you convince them that high taxes are the reason, and you manage to make them forget that taxes have actually been going down for three decades now, he's a lot less likely to start blaming you.

Maybe we're seeing different propaganda. 'cause I keep seeing idiots clamoring for more, higher minimum wages, ignoring the fact that this will inevitably increase unemployment, which will increase the drain on public funds, which will increase taxes, and end up with a smaller check at the end of the day.

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July 26, 2011, 07:22:03 AM

You're neglecting the facts that 1: we are not operating in a capitalist system. We are currently operating in a Fascist system, by which the government works in cooperation with Corporations, themselves creations of the government, to control the economy. Without the minimum wage, unemployment would go down, probably to 0 involuntary unemployment, which by itself would give the workers more bargaining power.

And this neglects the fact that it's next to impossible to survive on minumum wage as it is. It's telling that we need government intervention just to keep corporations from paying people so little that they can't even survive! If companies were responsible, we wouldn't need a minimum wage in the first place, would we? The system right now sucks, and I'm the last person who'd defend it, but look at how people lived when there were fewer government regulations. All of that stuff was put into place specifically because less regulated capitalism leads to more and more instability and more and more worker abuses. Why would you ever think that eliminating them completely would do anything but embolden the corporations to do whatever they want, when all of recorded history shows that's exactly what they'll do? And what they still do?

You can't blame every corporate abuse on the government because it just starts to sound ridiculous and completely ignorant of history.
 
Quote
Unions would further increase worker bargaining power (labor unions, not trade unions, there is a distinct and important difference) to the point where they are roughly equal to the people hiring them. Added to the fact that without the government to shield them, the CEOs would actually be liable for their company's actions, life starts to look a little better, eh?

We went over this in the AnCapistan thread and you've still failed to give any kind of an answer - if the corporations aren't responsible to anyone, how is a completely powerless government or some private enterprise with no incentive to do so going to arrest a CEO? Without a government, they are by far the most powerful force in society and could afford private armies and all of that good stuff. I keep asking, but I keep getting no answer: who's going to stop them?

These companies also have a depressingly long and mostly consequence-free history of firing, threatening, and even killing people who try to start unions.

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 07:36:28 AM

Quote
Unions would further increase worker bargaining power (labor unions, not trade unions, there is a distinct and important difference) to the point where they are roughly equal to the people hiring them. Added to the fact that without the government to shield them, the CEOs would actually be liable for their company's actions, life starts to look a little better, eh?

We went over this in the AnCapistan thread and you've still failed to give any kind of an answer - if the corporations aren't responsible to anyone, how is a completely powerless government or some private enterprise with no incentive to do so going to arrest a CEO? Without a government, they are by far the most powerful force in society and could afford private armies and all of that good stuff. I keep asking, but I keep getting no answer: who's going to stop them?

These companies also have a depressingly long and mostly consequence-free history of firing, threatening, and even killing people who try to start unions.

Corporate abuses are due to government. Corporations wouldn't even exist in the form they do today without Government backing them up.

The corporations are not, even now, the most powerful force in society. The customers are. You can't force people to buy coke. Without money, what's your CEO gonna do?

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July 26, 2011, 07:48:44 AM

Corporate abuses are due to government. Corporations wouldn't even exist in the form they do today without Government backing them up.

So you think that by stripping away what little accountability and regulatory actions they are subject to, that would make things better? How do you even pretend something like that could ever work?

Quote
The corporations are not, even now, the most powerful force in society. The customers are. You can't force people to buy coke. Without money, what's your CEO gonna do?

Also addressed and not responded to in the AnCapitan thread. I'll just paste it here because I seem to have to keep repeating myself:

Quote from: me
Oh yes, this always works. Except how are people even going to know what evil shit these companies are up to when a different division of the same company owns the newspapers and never prints anything bad about them? You don't even need your little AnCapistan to see the results of this right now. Coca-cola has outright murdered union organizers in Latin America and their products still fly off the shelves. Hershey's and other chocolate companies use cocoa grown by modern-day slaves on the Ivory Coast, and most people don't even learn about that, let alone have a chance to get angry about it. With the kind of corporate consolidation we see these days, you also run into the problem of trying to boycott companies that make thousands of products of every different description, and you know most people aren't going to bother with that.

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 08:03:14 AM

Both of those can be answered with the same thing, so I won't bother quoting them.

Obviously, you don't go to Coke News for information about Coke. Dur. You go to independent news sources, such as the No Agenda show, which aren't corporately funded, but donation supported. A free media is essential to accountability, whether Gov't or corporate.

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July 26, 2011, 08:20:26 AM

Both of those can be answered with the same thing, so I won't bother quoting them.

Obviously, you don't go to Coke News for information about Coke. Dur. You go to independent news sources, such as the No Agenda show, which aren't corporately funded, but donation supported. A free media is essential to accountability, whether Gov't or corporate.

But the problem won't be limited to Coke News. It'll spread to every news source Coke advertises in and every one owned by a company associated with them. Yes, I go to alternative news sources and a lot of other people do, too. What good does that do when 99% of people take the most convenient and most entertaining news option every time?  Obviously alternative news exists now and it failed to even make a dent in the sales of the corporations I referred to, so how is that a solution?

This is the problem that we see again and again and again with libertarianism - it ignores the human element entirely. It assumes most people to be rational, intelligent, and moral and ignores mountains evidence to the contrary. It's like the honor system for politics. You also ignore the fact that nobody with a full time job and a family to take care of has time to sit around searching obscure alternative news sites for the hundreds of products in their homes. Not to mention the frequently-encountered issue of a needed item being made by two or three companies who all commit the same sorts of abuses. Who do you buy from then? How many families do you seriously think sit down and try to tackle these issues?

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 08:33:32 AM

This is the problem that we see again and again and again with libertarianism - it ignores the human element entirely. It assumes most people to be rational, intelligent, and moral and ignores mountains evidence to the contrary. It's like the honor system for politics. You also ignore the fact that nobody with a full time job and a family to take care of has time to sit around searching obscure alternative news sites for the hundreds of products in their homes. Not to mention the frequently-encountered issue of a needed item being made by two or three companies who all commit the same sorts of abuses. Who do you buy from then? How many families do you seriously think sit down and try to tackle these issues?

So, Because some people fail to be responsible, I should support you stealing from everyone else to force them to be?

People offload decision-making all the time. The government isn't fixing that. If it was, It would ban Coke from US shelves because of the labor disputes. What I suggest is that we stop stealing from people, and let them choose which decisions to offload. Private ratings companies could do all that tedious research, and that poor, overworked mom could only buy products marked by the ratings agency that they trust.

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July 26, 2011, 09:06:57 AM

So, Because some people fail to be responsible, I should support you stealing from everyone else to force them to be?

When you guys hold people to such an unrealistically high degree of responsibility that only a vanishingly small number of people can meet it, I don't see much other choice. Again, you have to design governments to react to how people actually are in real life, not how you'd like them to be in some fantasy world of Randian supermen! Why is this such a difficult concept?

Quote
Private ratings companies could do all that tedious research, and that poor, overworked mom could only buy products marked by the ratings agency that they trust.

Haha yeah, trusting in private ratings companies is a great idea. That'll fix everyth-oh. Nevermind.


                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 02:20:43 PM

Obviously, you don't go to Coke News for information about Coke. Dur. You go to independent news sources, such as the No Agenda show, which aren't corporately funded, but donation supported. A free media is essential to accountability, whether Gov't or corporate.

Right, and UnbiasedTruthfulNews.com and the ObviouslyNoAgendaHereNoSiree show are completely unrelated to coke.

unless you start from a clean slate with more or less equal distribution of wealth (hey, that sounds a lot like another political system), monetary gravity takes over.
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July 26, 2011, 02:31:39 PM

It's not the roads I drive on that I'm complaining about. It's the roads I don't drive on. Tell me taxation isn't theft, though. Go on, try.

Just, out of curiosity, let's say the road system is privatized. You'll have competing companies owning roads and charging toll. At first, if you like one road more than the other, you'll have a choice to avoid the poorly performing company. But, eventually, the better performing one will be able to buy up more and more poorly performing ones around your area. When it gets to the point that there is only one company servicing all roads and charging you for their use, you're pretty much stuck with a monopoly, having to pay one organization if you want to drive anywhere. So... how would that be different from being forced to pay the government? (You could take public transportation, but you'd be paying indirectly, or you could stay home... And yeah, there are issues with construction crew unions and no-bid contract corruption, but who's to say that also won't happen with a private monopoly?)

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July 26, 2011, 03:25:00 PM

So, Because some people fail to be responsible, I should support you stealing from everyone else to force them to be?

When you guys hold people to such an unrealistically high degree of responsibility that only a vanishingly small number of people can meet it, I don't see much other choice. Again, you have to design governments to react to how people actually are in real life, not how you'd like them to be in some fantasy world of Randian supermen! Why is this such a difficult concept?

Quote
Private ratings companies could do all that tedious research, and that poor, overworked mom could only buy products marked by the ratings agency that they trust.

Haha yeah, trusting in private ratings companies is a great idea. That'll fix everyth-oh. Nevermind.

We don't expect people to be 'Randian supermen', We expect them to be self-interested, and pay attention to what they're doing. That's not hard, even for an 'overworked mom'. Why is that such a difficult concept?

Oh, Yes, because UL ratings are so untrustworthy.

Right, and UnbiasedTruthfulNews.com and the ObviouslyNoAgendaHereNoSiree show are completely unrelated to coke.

Listen to one show before you start talking about what you don't know.

And yeah, there are issues with construction crew unions and no-bid contract corruption, but who's to say that also won't happen with a private monopoly?)

The private 'monopoly' would still have to provide good service, at a good price, or a competitor could undercut them. A natural monopoly is still subject to market forces, even when it's alone. The threat of competition is just as good as actual competition, most of the time.

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July 26, 2011, 04:01:37 PM

And yeah, there are issues with construction crew unions and no-bid contract corruption, but who's to say that also won't happen with a private monopoly?)

The private 'monopoly' would still have to provide good service, at a good price, or a competitor could undercut them. A natural monopoly is still subject to market forces, even when it's alone. The threat of competition is just as good as actual competition, most of the time.

The chief problem here is that land is the one monopoly you can't undercut. With data, you can switch to multiple carriers, including radio. With electric, you can switch to generating some of the power yourself. But if someone owns all the roads, there's really no way to compete, since there aren't any easy substitutes. I guess this may push more research into automated flying machines, or teleportation...

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July 26, 2011, 04:13:32 PM

And yeah, there are issues with construction crew unions and no-bid contract corruption, but who's to say that also won't happen with a private monopoly?)

The private 'monopoly' would still have to provide good service, at a good price, or a competitor could undercut them. A natural monopoly is still subject to market forces, even when it's alone. The threat of competition is just as good as actual competition, most of the time.

The chief problem here is that land is the one monopoly you can't undercut. With data, you can switch to multiple carriers, including radio. With electric, you can switch to generating some of the power yourself. But if someone owns all the roads, there's really no way to compete, since there aren't any easy substitutes. I guess this may push more research into automated flying machines, or teleportation...

Precisely. A road is not only competing with other roads, but also flying, telecommuting, biking, subways, and walking.

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July 26, 2011, 05:10:54 PM

And yeah, there are issues with construction crew unions and no-bid contract corruption, but who's to say that also won't happen with a private monopoly?)

The private 'monopoly' would still have to provide good service, at a good price, or a competitor could undercut them. A natural monopoly is still subject to market forces, even when it's alone. The threat of competition is just as good as actual competition, most of the time.

The chief problem here is that land is the one monopoly you can't undercut. With data, you can switch to multiple carriers, including radio. With electric, you can switch to generating some of the power yourself. But if someone owns all the roads, there's really no way to compete, since there aren't any easy substitutes. I guess this may push more research into automated flying machines, or teleportation...

Precisely. A road is not only competing with other roads, but also flying, telecommuting, biking, subways, and walking.

Ah, good point. Forgot about those.

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July 26, 2011, 05:17:41 PM

Oh, Yes, because UL ratings are so untrustworthy.

Right, and UnbiasedTruthfulNews.com and the ObviouslyNoAgendaHereNoSiree show are completely unrelated to coke.

Listen to one show before you start talking about what you don't know.

1.  the vast majority of UL ratings are testing to conform to government created standards.  UL creates relatively few standards, mostly for niche industrial equipment rather than anything the average person would use or even know of.

2. i wasn't disparaging the show, i was making the point that given an uneven starting point and lack of external regulation, one can simply flood a medium and make it all but impossible to weed out the biased sources from the unbiased ones.
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July 26, 2011, 05:25:20 PM

Precisely. A road is not only competing with other roads, but also flying, telecommuting, biking, subways, and walking.

Ah, good point. Forgot about those.
Too many people think two-dimensionally.

1.  the vast majority of UL ratings are testing to conform to government created standards.  UL creates relatively few standards, mostly for niche industrial equipment rather than anything the average person would use or even know of.

2. i wasn't disparaging the show, i was making the point that given an uneven starting point and lack of external regulation, one can simply flood a medium and make it all but impossible to weed out the biased sources from the unbiased ones.

1. So, what you're saying is, when Government doesn't create standards, UL does. If Government created no standards, UL would create them all.

2. No, actually, it's quite simple to weed out the biased sources. Look for corporate sponsorship.

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1.  the vast majority of UL ratings are testing to conform to government created standards.  UL creates relatively few standards, mostly for niche industrial equipment rather than anything the average person would use or even know of.

Four letters: IEEE

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July 26, 2011, 06:14:23 PM

We don't expect people to be 'Randian supermen', We expect them to be self-interested, and pay attention to what they're doing. That's not hard, even for an 'overworked mom'. Why is that such a difficult concept?

Whatever you expect, people obviously aren't giving it to you. But it must be humanity at large that's wrong, so I'm sure you'll have no trouble at all cramming a square peg into the round hole of your ideology! And if those people can't cope with your system, due to biological reasons, social reasons, or whatever the hell reasons, what then? They just die?

When your definition of "pay attention to what you're doing" includes knowing everything that goes into every product you buy and everything about every company that manufactures them and on and on and on, that's very unrealistic and I seriously doubt you yourself live up to the standards you espouse.

But hey, they can always subscribe to private ratings industries that may or may not be in collusion with the companies they're monitoring. And of course there's no way to know that if they're the dominant force in society and can cover up anything they want and are effectively accountable to nobody. I guess people will pay for those ratings industries with the spare change left over from their sub-minimum wage jobs... after they've finished paying the tolls on every road they drove on (dude, you don't get it! they can just FLY TO WORK!!) and fees for the agency that makes sure their foods are made safely and on and on and on.


Quote
Listen to one show before you start talking about what you don't know.
Haha is that the same Adam Curry who was a goofy MTV VJ like 25 years ago? Along with a tech columnist?

I have a rule against listening to computer nerds' and engineers' opinions on politics, as I've found them to be universally awful and a hell of a lot more shallow than people who have spent their lives studying polisci and social issues. I have an even bigger rule against people who claim to be unbiased because nobody is, and that indicates to me that they aren't constantly examining their own beliefs for contradictions and problems like a rational person should always do (hint: you REALLY need to do this). It's pretty clear from the Photoshop image on the main page that they just might have an agenda after all. Not that I disagree in that specific case because U.S. imperialism is one of the few subjects the far left and far right can agree on, but still.

Quote
The private 'monopoly' would still have to provide good service, at a good price, or a competitor could undercut them. A natural monopoly is still subject to market forces, even when it's alone. The threat of competition is just as good as actual competition, most of the time.

Except that so many industries these days have such a massive barrier to entry that it's not hard to envision a scenario where there is no competition. I can't even believe you're sitting here defending monopolies. Do you have a literal shrine to capitalism in your bedroom? Because it honestly sounds like you do worship the concept.

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 07:12:54 PM

Except that so many industries these days have such a massive barrier to entry that it's not hard to envision a scenario where there is no competition. I can't even believe you're sitting here defending monopolies. Do you have a literal shrine to capitalism in your bedroom? Because it honestly sounds like you do worship the concept.

Well, I'm sure it's not a patch on your Lenin shrine.

Look, I have explained the role of each of the factors in libertarian theory over and over and fucking over. Frankly, I'm getting tired of it. I'm starting to see why Ascent just says 'here, read this book' every time we corner him on something. It's fucking tedious.

Let me see if I can tl;dr it down to something you will actually read.

Companies (not 'Corporations', those are the bastard children of Government) provide for-profit services. This would include much of what Government now claims to do, that being protection and justice.

Charities pick up the slack on things that can not be provided for profit, such as homeless shelters, and the like. What government calls 'social programs' This would also include pure research projects, such as deep-space probes.

The Media keeps these two honest by investigating and reporting on them. If you're worried about bias, seek the opposite bias (you can count on Pepsi News to report on Coke's misdeeds, for example), or seek an unbiased, donation-based show.

All of these are kept in check by one simple fact: competition. There is a limit to the amount which the barriers to entry can be raised. Competition is not, As I demonstrated earlier, limited to only that specific field. If you price your service too high, people will not use it, and seek another service, or the profits will exceed the barrier to entry costs - a purely subjective calculation, you can never know exactly when a competitor will pop up.

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Companies (not 'Corporations', those are the bastard children of Government)

You know, just because corporations started out with government charters 400 years ago doesn't mean you can blame government for their existence and every single one of their crimes forever. I don't know how you expect to have companies that operate on the scale of modern corporations without some kind of corporate model. There aren't many single people who can afford to set up, say, a $4 billion semiconductor fab plant. Moreover, privately held companies have committed so many of the same abuses that corporations have, so I don't see a hell of a lot of difference from a human rights perspective. Hell, the people who are spreading some of the most ridiculous and misleading propaganda out there are the owners of a private company: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_brothers

Quote
Charities pick up the slack on things that can not be provided for profit, such as homeless shelters, and the like. What government calls 'social programs' This would also include pure research projects, such as deep-space probes.

Even with the government providing social services, charities are always desperately underfunded. How overwhelmed do you think they'd be without a social safety net to pick up some of the slack. Especially with people making less than minimum wage, which means you'd see fewer donations and far more need.

Quote
The Media keeps these two honest by investigating and reporting on them. If you're worried about bias, seek the opposite bias (you can count on Pepsi News to report on Coke's misdeeds, for example),

And when Pepsi and Coke advertise in all of the same media? I also don't think I'd trust one company to be truthful in telling me about the misdeeds of their competitors.

Quote
or seek an unbiased, donation-based show.

Oh good, more donations that the people making $3 an hour could never afford to make.

There's a reason that most people who believe in libertarianism are in high school and have zero experience with the real world, and you and Atlas illustrate it quite well.

                                                                               
                
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July 26, 2011, 08:29:27 PM

There's a reason that most people who believe in libertarianism are in high school and have zero experience with the real world, and you and Atlas illustrate it quite well.

You're making unfounded assumptions. Foolish ones, at that.

But let's address the easiest to knock down, first, shall we?
Companies (not 'Corporations', those are the bastard children of Government)

You know, just because corporations started out with government charters 400 years ago doesn't mean you can blame government for their existence and every single one of their crimes forever. I don't know how you expect to have companies that operate on the scale of modern corporations without some kind of corporate model. There aren't many single people who can afford to set up, say, a $4 billion semiconductor fab plant. Moreover, privately held companies have committed so many of the same abuses that corporations have, so I don't see a hell of a lot of difference from a human rights perspective. Hell, the people who are spreading some of the most ridiculous and misleading propaganda out there are the owners of a private company: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_brothers

An untraded corporation is still a corporation. Offering stock can be done without incorporation, and incorporation can be done without offering stock. It's the limited liability that is the issue here, not the stock offer. This article may assist your understanding.


Quote
Charities pick up the slack on things that can not be provided for profit, such as homeless shelters, and the like. What government calls 'social programs' This would also include pure research projects, such as deep-space probes.

Even with the government providing social services, charities are always desperately underfunded. How overwhelmed do you think they'd be without a social safety net to pick up some of the slack. Especially with people making less than minimum wage, which means you'd see fewer donations and far more need.

Here, you're ignoring the source of the funds that pay for those social services. In another thread, it was discussed in some detail how those who actually cared could completely pay for almost all the services with very little trouble. You care so much, however, that you want to make sure that everyone helps, even those you're 'helping'.

Quote
The Media keeps these two honest by investigating and reporting on them. If you're worried about bias, seek the opposite bias (you can count on Pepsi News to report on Coke's misdeeds, for example),

And when Pepsi and Coke advertise in all of the same media? I also don't think I'd trust one company to be truthful in telling me about the misdeeds of their competitors.

This is actually the one valid point you make. and it is for that reason that I'm a fan of No Agenda and other community supported projects.

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July 26, 2011, 08:32:30 PM

Just to interject, minimum wage, high unemployment, and low income issues are currently more of an issue of artificial and distance-based borders suddenly collapsing due to globalization, nothing more. In short, the minimum wage suddenly went from what someone in your country was willing to work for and need to earn to live, to what anyone in the entire world is willing to work for and needs to earn to live. In this world, the only thing that a minimum wage will accomplish is make sure that all types of work that are below that wage get shipped overseas, and everyone who was at that job level is now either required to learn new skills to compete and get higher wage jobs (competing with everyone else who was laid off), or starve (go on SSI). Only real political options are to keep increasing the minimum wage and force more jobs overseas, or allow local citizens to compete globally, and allow the global low wages to increase all together (outsourced work wages in China and India are growing really fast btw, so that shouldn't take long)

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July 26, 2011, 08:35:55 PM

There's a reason that most people who believe in libertarianism are in high school and have zero experience with the real world, and you and Atlas illustrate it quite well.

Btw, just fyi, I was a liberal democrat until I got to college. After getting my degree in business finance, and now going through most of my master's in business, I've become more of a social liberal and economic conservative. I guess moderate democrat/libertarian or something. The main reason was that I ended up learning how economics works, exactly, what effects government tax policies REALLY have (I don't mean "omg they're evil!", I mean totally unexpected things and tax avoidance issues), and what kind of crap people and businesses have to deal with globally from a bureaucratic/regulation aspect.

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July 26, 2011, 08:45:33 PM

There's a reason that most people who believe in libertarianism are in high school and have zero experience with the real world, and you and Atlas illustrate it quite well.

Btw, just fyi, I was a liberal democrat until I got to college. After getting my degree in business finance, and now going through most of my master's in business, I've become more of a social liberal and economic conservative. I guess moderate democrat/libertarian or something. The main reason was that I ended up learning how economics works, exactly, what effects government tax policies REALLY have (I don't mean "omg they're evil!", I mean totally unexpected things and tax avoidance issues), and what kind of crap people and businesses have to deal with globally from a bureaucratic/regulation aspect.

I'm not against free markets. Not at all. Competition is necessary. But regulation is necessary. Especially with resource management and the environment. We don't have enough regulation with regard to resource exploitation and pollution, frankly. If you're proud of your education and ability to understand economics, then look into steady state growth and ecological economics. Keyword: "Herman Daly".

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July 26, 2011, 09:09:55 PM

I'm not against free markets. Not at all. Competition is necessary. But regulation is necessary. Especially with resource management and the environment. We don't have enough regulation with regard to resource exploitation and pollution, frankly. If you're proud of your education and ability to understand economics, then look into steady state growth and ecological economics. Keyword: "Herman Daly".

OK, so I've read this paper by him, and I have to say it actually looks pretty....

fucking horrible. I'd like to point out something:

Quote
Free trade would not be feasible for a SSE, since its producers
would necessarily count many costs to the environment and the future
that foreign firms located in growth economies are allowed to ignore.

So... Which is it? Not against free markets, or against free markets?

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July 27, 2011, 12:52:53 AM

Quote
Free trade would not be feasible for a SSE, since its producers
would necessarily count many costs to the environment and the future
that foreign firms located in growth economies are allowed to ignore.

A link to said article would be helpful, so that I may see the quote within context, otherwise I have no comment. Provide a link. Thank you.

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July 27, 2011, 12:54:50 AM

Quote
Free trade would not be feasible for a SSE, since its producers
would necessarily count many costs to the environment and the future
that foreign firms located in growth economies are allowed to ignore.

A link to said article would be helpful, so that I may see the quote within context, otherwise I have no comment. Provide a link. Thank you.
I did. You can't read?

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July 27, 2011, 12:57:46 AM

Quote
Free trade would not be feasible for a SSE, since its producers
would necessarily count many costs to the environment and the future
that foreign firms located in growth economies are allowed to ignore.

A link to said article would be helpful, so that I may see the quote within context, otherwise I have no comment. Provide a link. Thank you.
I did. You can't read?

No. But I see now the link. I missed it before.

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July 27, 2011, 03:05:10 AM

OK, so I've read this paper by him, and I have to say it actually looks pretty.... fucking horrible.

http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/data/files/publications/Herman_Daly_thinkpiece.pdf

That is an excellent paper. Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen it before, but it really encapsulates his theories. I suggest you read it again, and then read up some more on the theory.

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July 27, 2011, 03:18:25 AM

OK, so I've read this paper by him, and I have to say it actually looks pretty.... fucking horrible.

http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/data/files/publications/Herman_Daly_thinkpiece.pdf

That is an excellent paper. Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen it before, but it really encapsulates his theories. I suggest you read it again, and then read up some more on the theory.
Oh, I see. I didn't read it enough the first time, obviously, because I still think his theories are bullshit?

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July 27, 2011, 03:38:57 AM

An untraded corporation is still a corporation. Offering stock can be done without incorporation, and incorporation can be done without offering stock. It's the limited liability that is the issue here,

And for the 5 millionth time, when you have a purposefully powerless government operating against the most powerful people in the world, you have about zero chance of enforcing that liability.

Quote
Here, you're ignoring the source of the funds that pay for those social services. In another thread, it was discussed in some detail how those who actually cared could completely pay for almost all the services with very little trouble. You care so much, however, that you want to make sure that everyone helps, even those you're 'helping'.

I support progressive taxation. Low-income people don't pay. So no, the people being helped would not be paying taxes. They do now in the form of sales tax, etc, but I think they should be exempt from even that if they're poor enough.  And like I said, we can't keep charities funded even with a social safety net, let alone without one. A cite of "some other thread somewhere on the Bitcoin forums" doesn't really allay those concerns. This is yet another instance where people in real life don't act like you hoped they would, but you still refuse to change your awesome plans for them, and instead vainly hope that they'll adapt to you, providing no condition for what will happen if they don't.

Just to interject, minimum wage, high unemployment, and low income issues are currently more of an issue of artificial and distance-based borders suddenly collapsing due to globalization, nothing more.

Except that the almost all of the minimum wage jobs are service industry stuff that's physically impossible to outsource. And all of those things have been repeatedly cropping up as serious issues for many, many years before globalization.

                                                                               
                
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July 27, 2011, 03:42:34 AM

Oh, I see. I didn't read it enough the first time, obviously, because I still think his theories are bullshit?

Point out the bullshit.

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July 27, 2011, 03:45:21 AM

There's a reason that most people who believe in libertarianism are in high school and have zero experience with the real world, and you and Atlas illustrate it quite well.

Btw, just fyi, I was a liberal democrat until I got to college. After getting my degree in business finance, and now going through most of my master's in business, I've become more of a social liberal and economic conservative. I guess moderate democrat/libertarian or something. The main reason was that I ended up learning how economics works, exactly, what effects government tax policies REALLY have (I don't mean "omg they're evil!", I mean totally unexpected things and tax avoidance issues), and what kind of crap people and businesses have to deal with globally from a bureaucratic/regulation aspect.

I'm not against free markets. Not at all. Competition is necessary. But regulation is necessary. Especially with resource management and the environment. We don't have enough regulation with regard to resource exploitation and pollution, frankly. If you're proud of your education and ability to understand economics, then look into steady state growth and ecological economics. Keyword: "Herman Daly".

One idea I'm a fan of is, instead of leasing land to companies to drill and mine on, make them buy it, and make them pay property taxes like everyone else. That way, instead of them just abandoning the land back to the government, they'll have to sell it. And if the company wants to be able to resell the land after they're done with it, they'll either make sure to be really careful when mining, or clean it up when they're done. Otherwise they're stuck with worthless land and are forced to keep paying property taxes for it.

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July 27, 2011, 03:50:11 AM

One idea I'm a fan of is, instead of leasing land to companies to drill and mine on, make them buy it, and make them pay property taxes like everyone else. That way, instead of them just abandoning the land back to the government, they'll have to sell it. And if the company wants to be able to resell the land after they're done with it, they'll either make sure to be really careful when mining, or clean it up when they're done. Otherwise they're stuck with worthless land and are forced to keep paying property taxes for it.

Yeah I'm sure a few grand in property taxes are a huge concern for someone who just extracted billions in wealth from your land. If the money they can save by being sloppy is greater than the property taxes (it is), they'll make a mess every damn time. Because that's just good business sense!

                                                                               
                
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