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Author Topic: Pirate v2.0: Unravelling the Bitshares Ponzi  (Read 12584 times)
jedunnigan
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September 21, 2013, 03:11:37 AM
 #61



Lets simplify this for you... I am Mt. Gox and am running a P2P exchange.  You deposit your BTC with me I pay you interest from the fees I charge facilitating the exchange.   You can withdraw more BTC in 6 months than you started with because the business earned a profit providing a service.

The only thing I have done is decentralize Mt. Gox and allocate the profits to the shareholders.

Hi bytemaster

I'm glad you joined in , true , but that's not what I asked , i asked where does it come from , the "interest" the "work" .

I'd just it to be said here in plain English , so as to not avoid the question :

where does the extra BTC in the scenario quoted above derive from .

** just read the read of the page - but this is still relevant

It has already been said by bytemaster:
Quote
The DAC earns a profit by facilitating trade via transaction fees.  Some of these fees are paid to miners for their services.  The rest are paid as dividends.   These dividends are not SOURCED from future investment and could be sustained forever.  If there are no transactions there are no dividends.  In other words, the system does not promise any particular rate of return beyond a share of the 'profit' the DAC earns selling space in the block chain for transactions.
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cunicula
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September 21, 2013, 02:23:44 PM
Last edit: September 21, 2013, 02:36:23 PM by cunicula
 #62



Lets simplify this for you... I am Mt. Gox and am running a P2P exchange.  You deposit your BTC with me I pay you interest from the fees I charge facilitating the exchange.   You can withdraw more BTC in 6 months than you started with because the business earned a profit providing a service.

The only thing I have done is decentralize Mt. Gox and allocate the profits to the shareholders.

Hi bytemaster

I'm glad you joined in , true , but that's not what I asked , i asked where does it come from , the "interest" the "work" .

I'd just it to be said here in plain English , so as to not avoid the question :

where does the extra BTC in the scenario quoted above derive from .

** just read the read of the page - but this is still relevant

The reason why it can't work forever is that the global supply of marks is finite. How big it grows really depends only on their marketing skills. I'm in Malaysia right now. They just hauled some local Ponzi operators off to jail. Their scheme was convincing marks that they were relatives of the Sultan of Johor and therefore could use gov't connections to earn riskless returns.
Funny how the stories behind ponzis are so culture-specific.

We will just have to see how these guys sell their story of being able to generate perpetual riskless returns from some "speculators" paying for a "prediction market." Expect them to generate a lot of spurious transactions in the prediction market to lend credibility to their revenue generation story.

Eventually money leaving the system exceeds money entering the system.
At this point there is no incentive for the operators to maintain the price of 1 bitBTC at 1 BTC anymore.
They now suffer net losses by doing this instead of net gains.

At this point, the price of a bitBTC goes to zero. The early "investors" win and the late investors lose. Zero sum.
It is like any other bubble, but because there is no underlying value creation (I.e. the existence of the product is a fraud) the price drops to zero instead of the pre-bubble valuation.
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September 21, 2013, 04:50:51 PM
 #63

The best way to prove your good faith is via the following arrangement.

You offer sophisticated investors (i.e. wealthy individuals) the option to enter into the following legally binding contract:
Quote
The investor buys x bitBTC from you for now at the current market price in terms of BTC.
 
You agree to repurchase the investor's x bitBTC at the exact same price at some time in the future. You have the option to choose any personally convenient time between 1 and 6 years of the initial transaction. You can repurchase the bitBTC all at once or gradually over the 5 year interval. It's entirely up to you.

In exchange for this offer, the investor agrees to pay you 95% of the interest generated from holding bitBTC between now and the time of repurchase.

It seems like a great deal for you.

1) The market price of bitBTC in terms of BTC is supposed to remain approximately constant over time.
If so, surely you can find a future period in the next five years when the price is similar to current price, no?
If the price is volatile, that is actually helpful for you. You can just repurchase during downswings in the market earning a tidy profit. If the price is exactly constant, well you can't earn any profit, but you don't take any risk.

2) The investor is depositing x bitBTC worth of capital in your prediction market. Somehow this is generating returns, right? Normally you pay 100% of these returns to the investor, but now the investors is generously offering to give 95% of his returns to you, keeping only 5% for himself.

3) If you don't think investors will take you up on this, you can also offer the regular deal as another option (100% of the interest, but no repurchase agreement). Investors can just choose whichever deal they like best. At worst, people will just not do the repurchase agreement deal. At best, you will end up owning almost all the bitshares in existence while simultaneously attracting more capital investment than under the original arrangement. Seems like a win in every direction for you.

What about the investor?
He earns a guaranteed risk-free return on his BTC. Sure it is only 5% of the extremely low risk return you were initially offering, but the investor gets a lot of piece of mind. He doesn't have to worry about the pesky BTC/bitBTC exchange rate anymore.

What if you run?
Well, you could put up some collateral (e.g. your homes) and use a formal legal arrangement. Or you could find a trusted escrow to hold on to a BTC deposit from you. Then the investors won't have to worry about you skipping town.
As long as the issue of you absconding is taken care of, I would place all the BTC I own in this investment without a second thought.
 
If you promise to offer this contract via trusted escrow for regular guys or via collateral and formal legal arrangements for sophisticated investors, then I will never say anything negative about bitShares again. (as long as you make good on your word)

So how about it? Are you willing to do this for me and other potential investors? If not, please explain why not.
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September 21, 2013, 05:13:03 PM
 #64


It has already been said by bytemaster:
Quote
The DAC earns a profit by facilitating trade via transaction fees.  Some of these fees are paid to miners for their services.  The rest are paid as dividends.   These dividends are not SOURCED from future investment and could be sustained forever.  If there are no transactions there are no dividends.  In other words, the system does not promise any particular rate of return beyond a share of the 'profit' the DAC earns selling space in the block chain for transactions.

LOL... Sustained forever, huh. Shit they invented a money printing machine called a DAC. Everybody go buy one.

What a tool you are.

Did you help fund this? If so, talk to your lawyer about limiting your legal liability should (that is when) things go sour.

It is probably too late to recover your money. You can likely avoid jail by disassociating yourself from them. If you are already part of a criminal conspiracy, consider coming forward to the SEC now. Maybe you can come to some sort of arrangement.
 
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September 21, 2013, 05:15:44 PM
Last edit: September 21, 2013, 05:26:05 PM by jedunnigan
 #65

He earns a guaranteed risk-free return on his BTC.

Disclaimer: Not taking sides, just flushing out a question.

I find this notion of risk free investment curious. There is inherent risk by holding assets in BitShares. There is the risk that the system won't be up to snuff and will fail, that is huge risk; or perhaps some other force will bring down the network. How can you not account for these when you critique the efficacy of the system? Or are you saying that doesn't matter when you build the model?

edit: i was waiting for that personal jab. nice one! you just can't keep your hands to yourself, can you? regardless, you bring up a good point with the forever statement, that needs clarification.
double edit: i have no money in this system. i am a voyeur, just curious of the possibilities.
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September 21, 2013, 05:26:42 PM
 #66

He earns a guaranteed risk-free return on his BTC.

Disclaimer: Not taking sides, just flushing out a question.

I find this notion of risk free investment curious. There is inherent risk by holding assets in BitShares. There is the risk that the system won't be up to snuff and will fail, that is huge risk; or perhaps some other force will bring down the network. How can you not account for these when you critique the efficacy of the system?

Or are you saying that doesn't matter when you build the model?

edit:hah, i was waiting for that personal jab. nice one!

That is a separate issue and introducing it confuses things.  

For the sake of argument, suppose that in 6 years everyone believes that the system is 100% sustainable on technical grounds (i.e. there are no problems with cryptography, any of the programming, no competitors, or risk from government etc.).

They will still be issuing interest on bitBTC at this time. It is encoded in the mining algorithm.

The interest parity condition implies that bitBTC will steadily depreciate against BTC.

I claim they are 100% aware of this now. Their entire path to profitability rests on convincing you otherwise.
They mine/buy bitshares very early, they create bitBTC using these bitshares and market them as risk-free BTC interest, they use a reserve fund to temporarily fix the bitBTC price, you (and many others like you) trade your BTC for their bitBTC, once people stop doing this they stop backing up the bitBTC market price. You end up with worthless 'bitBTC', they end up with your BTC.

That is the whole project. The 'prediction market' is just a cover. Maybe they are 'friends of the Sultan' too?

  
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September 21, 2013, 05:44:51 PM
 #67

He earns a guaranteed risk-free return on his BTC.

Disclaimer: Not taking sides, just flushing out a question.

I find this notion of risk free investment curious. There is inherent risk by holding assets in BitShares. There is the risk that the system won't be up to snuff and will fail, that is huge risk; or perhaps some other force will bring down the network. How can you not account for these when you critique the efficacy of the system?

Or are you saying that doesn't matter when you build the model?

edit:hah, i was waiting for that personal jab. nice one!

That is a separate issue and introducing it confuses things.  

For the sake of argument, suppose that in 6 years everyone believes that the system is 100% sustainable on technical grounds (i.e. there are no problems with cryptography, any of the programming, no competitors, or risk from government etc.).

They will still be issuing interest on bitBTC at this time. It is encoded in the mining algorithm.

The interest parity condition implies that bitBTC will steadily depreciate against BTC.

I claim they are 100% aware of this now. Their entire path to profitability rests on convincing you otherwise.
They mine/buy bitshares very early, they create bitBTC using these bitshares and market them as risk-free BTC interest, they use a reserve fund to temporarily fix the bitBTC price, you (and many others like you) trade your BTC for their bitBTC, once people stop doing this they stop backing up the bitBTC market price. You end up with worthless 'bitBTC', they end up with your BTC.

That is the whole project. The 'prediction market' is just a cover. Maybe they are 'friends of the Sultan' too?
 

Cunicula, keep attacking that straw man because it won't get you anywhere.   So, let me break it down one more time:

1) Assuming BitShares has non-0 value... something that is true for many alt-coins today.
2) Someone holding bitshares is neither harmed nor hurt by the 'stock split' every block which appears like dividends.
3) Someone holding bitshares profits from every transaction fee earned by the network. 

Thus I have created an asset that pays a positive return based upon legitimate profit by offering a legitimate service. 

Party A decides to post that interesting bearing asset as collateral for a short position in BitBTC.
Party B decides to buy the long position in BitBTC with an equal amount of this interesting bearing asset.

A & B must agree on the exchange ratio.

There are now 2x the value of BTC held in the form of an interest bearing asset as collateral.  The interest from the collateral is paid to the holder of BitBTC.

If the market moves against A, the miner will cover giving B the opportunity to sell their BitBTC for BitShares at the new higher price and thus B ends up with more BitShares + Interest and the market value of these BitShares + Interest is greater than the BTC.   Assuming the prediction market dynamics work.

Nothing unsustainable about this arrangement.













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September 21, 2013, 05:58:05 PM
Last edit: September 21, 2013, 06:08:32 PM by markm
 #68

Now it sounds reminscent of Satoshi Dice, which evidently was quite sustainable; plus it also gives some of the gamblers some of the transaction fees of the blockchain it is played on.

What it has to do with dollar or bitcoin pegs is not really evident in this latest description of it, but maybe the use of the term peg was distracting, especially given that it could call to mind the dreaded trilemma.

Use of the term interest was also maybe acting as a distraction, inasmuch as that, too, is a word that comes up in the "impossible trilemma".

Now we have gambling, in a form known as a prediction market, plus some people other than miners getting portions of the transaction fees of the underlying blockchain.

If Satoshi Dice is anything to judge by, lack of transactions on which to charge fees does not sound massively likely, though I guess that depends on how much gamblers happen to like this particular game and how well the gambling site aka prediction market is marketed.

Presto, no "interest", no "peg", just people betting on whether other people will bet high(er?) or low(er?)...

They aren't even betting on what the value of dollars or "whatevers" is going to be really, are they? Aren't they really only betting on how much other people will bet that it is going to be? So ultimately the "whatever" is merely a word/label/textstring, some bettors will bet higher for one "whatever" than they will for some other "whatever", so if you happen to know what a particular textstring/label I am here calling a "whatever" means in the language or culture or subculture of a particular batch of bettors that could help you guess what they are going to bet that other people will bet that that particular "whatever"'s value is going to be?

Couldn't you thus have, say, bitPoundsOfFlesh, and Shylocks will bet different amounts on it than non-shylocks, for example? In effect having a prediction market to predict what the given population of gamblers is going to bet that they collectively are going to think is the most profitable amount to bet on bitPoundsOfFlesh?

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September 21, 2013, 06:14:35 PM
 #69

The 'prediction market' is a cover.

You are creating financial instruments, (e.g. bitUSD, bitBTC, etc.), right?

Obviously, there is going to be a financial market.
Financial market equilibrium implies that the long-run value of bitBTC in terms of BTC is 0.
I know this. You know this. Any undergraduate who has taken international economics or international finance knows this.

You are telling people they can earn a risk-free (or extremely low risk whatever) return without any direct involvement in the prediction market at all.
You know this is a lie.

This is called a ponzi scheme. It is illegal.

If it is not a ponzi scheme, then I suggested a contract that enables you to earn essentially free money.
If it is a ponzi scheme, then I suggested a contract that enables your investors to earn essentially free money.

You are not at all interested in my contract because you are 100% aware of what you are doing.
You realize that the contract turns the tables on you.

If not, then why not promise to offer the contract and get me to go away?

Once you have offered my contract as an option for investing in bitshares (prominently displayed whereever you discuss bitshares with the public), I will delete this thread. I will delete any of my posts about bitshares in other threads. I will politely ask anyone quoting my posts to delete their posts. To the extent that I can, I will remove all records of my hatred for bitshares from the internet. I will agree not to bring up bitshares again. As long as you keep to your end of the agreement.  
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September 21, 2013, 06:23:46 PM
 #70

Okay, if the "prediction market" is a cover, then presumably the "in game productive activities" of CoffeeMUD players in my MUDgoldat40 idea would also be, in much the same way, maybe even in exactly the same way, a cover, right?

So that what MUDgoldat40 would really be doing is simply printing play-money with which to reward players who buy in-game "gameprofitinstruments" from in-game shopkeepers or dealers or shops or whatever?

The third prong of the trilemma is, as I suggested earlier, possibly of interest (pun intended?) there, inasmuch as if the number of MUDgoldcoins in existence increases then the exchange rate(s) of MUDgoldcoins vis a vis other currencies that aren't "inflating" their "money supply" at the same rate might possibly change / might well change?

Or is the big difference between MUDgoldat40 and the bitshares/bitwhatevers proposal fundamentally the fact that MUDgoldat40 proposes to print more MUDgoldcoins instead of to obtain existing MUDgoldcoins from some players and use those to reward other players?

(If the MUD used a blockchain for its goldcoins, and a hard cap on the total number that will ever exist much like Bitcoin has a hard cap on how many will ever exist, would that "fix the problem"?)

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September 21, 2013, 06:26:39 PM
 #71

Now it sounds reminscent of Satoshi Dice, which evidently was quite sustainable; plus it also gives some of the gamblers some of the transaction fees of the blockchain it is played on.

What it has to do with dollar or bitcoin pegs is not really evident in this latest description of it, but maybe the use of the term peg was distracting, especially given that it could call to mind the dreaded trilemma.

Use of the term interest was also maybe acting as a distraction, inasmuch as that, too, is a word that comes up in the "impossible trilemma".

Now we have gambling, in a form known as a prediction market, plus some people other than miners getting portions of the transaction fees of the underlying blockchain.

If Satoshi Dice is anything to judge by, lack of transactions on which to charge fees does not sound massively likely, though I guess that depends on how much gamblers happen to like this particular game and how well the gambling site aka prediction market is marketed.

Presto, no "interest", no "peg", just people betting on whether other people will bet high(er?) or low(er?)...

They aren't even betting on what the value of dollars or "whatevers" is going to be really, are they? Aren't they really only betting on how much other people will bet that it is going to be? So ultimately the "whatever" is merely a word/label/textstring, some bettors will bet higher for one "whatever" than they will for some other "whatever", so if you happen to know what a particular textstring/label I am here calling a "whatever" means in the language or culture or subculture of a particular batch of bettors that could help you guess what they are going to bet that other people will bet that that particular "whatever"'s value is going to be?

Couldn't you thus have, say, bitPoundsOfFlesh, and Shylocks will bet different amounts on it than non-shylocks, for example? In effect having a prediction market to predict what the given population of gamblers is going to bet that they collectively are going to think is the most profitable amount to bet on bitPoundsOfFlesh?

-MarkM-


You seem to have it.    The 'peg' is created because the most profitable way to bet is with market consensus and betting against future consensus is a sure fire way to lose.  Thus we use the term 'market-pegged' because the only rationally way to bet is with consensus.   So you can debate whether or not the market will establish a consensus, but it is clear from the long history of prediction markets that simply describing the terms of the bet is enough to establish consensus.   Thus calling it BitUSD with the expectation that users should bet according to their belief of BitShares vis USD will be enough to establish that consensus... what other consensus could they attribute to it?

THis is why in our test network we will be having some exotic BitXYZ... just to prove the point... perhaps BitPoundOfFlesh would be a good option... if the price goes to high though, it might encourage canibalism... so perhaps there are better options.

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September 22, 2013, 12:21:13 AM
 #72


The 2007-9 Financial Crisis happened...
Not because very dodgy Quantitive Analysis was widely applied...
But the reason WHY it was.

For decades...
Washington/American culture evolved to "every American has a RIGHT to own a home"...
And countless Govt policies were shaped to allow indigent Americans to buy real estate...
Wall Street simply provided the methodologies and markets Washington needed.

No serious Wall Street player was under the illusion that it wasn't TOTAL BULLSHIT...
And no one went to jail in the end.

Just another bubble among dozens in recent history...
So no reason to indict a century old Financial System...
That produced and sustains the most prosperous country in history...
And replace it with a crypto-currency fetish.

If/when the Bitcoin Bubble pops...
Wired will pen a clone article about the "craziness" of Satoshi Nakamoto and his disciples. Smiley
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September 22, 2013, 07:53:00 AM
Last edit: September 22, 2013, 08:03:03 AM by cunicula
 #73

Ponzi schemes have a formal definition in economics. Every economics PhD is familiar with the so-called "no Ponzi condition".

The no Ponzi condition says that the present value of future debt obligations must be finite.
If not, it is a possible for a firm or government to issue an infinite quantity of debt. This ability to issue infinite debt is called a ponzi scheme.

Bitshares promises to issue interest bearing BTC denominated debt called bitBTC. These bitBTC can be held by creditors indefinately.

This implies that bitshares is a ponzi.

To see why imagine a pure BTC economy. BTC are in fixed supply and are the only form of money in use.
In this economy, BTC must appreciate at an annual rate precisely equal to the economic growth rate. This economic growth rate is also the economy's risk free real interest rate, r. This is a deflationary economy. The nominal interest rate denominted in BTC is equal to 0 and the inflation rate is equal to -r.

Let's introduce a bitBTC into our economy. bitBTC earn strictly positive interest through txn fees. Call this interest rate q > 0.
Let's assume the BTC price of 1 bitBTC is constant over time.

Now consider an investment strategy of buying 1 bitBTC worth of debt an holding it for t years.
This yields a bitBTC payoff of after t years of (1+q)^t bitBTC. The BTC payoff is also (1+q)^t BTC for a 1 BTC investment.

As measured in BTC, the present value at time 0 of this future debt obligation is also (1+q)^t

The no ponzi condition says that the present value of this debt has to remain finite as t goes to infinity. Otherwise, a ponzi scheme exists.

However we now that for any q> 0, (1+q)^t goes off to infinity as t goes to infinity. Therefore, bitshares violates the no ponzi condition.

Ecnonomsts call anything that violates the no ponzi condition a ponzi scheme.

Thus when I refer to bitshares as a ponzi scheme I am going by the textbook definition I was taught in school.
It is the only definition of a ponzi scheme that I know.

To repeat: anyone offering to pay you a positive interest rate on your btc forever[\b] is running a ponzi scheme. Didn't you aleady know that? Since bitshares cannot force you to give up your bitBTC or its share of txn fees, they are promising positive interest for eternity. If you go through the thread you can see that I was very careful to verify these points. I got hemming and hawing as a response. There is a reason for this. The fact that bitBTC pay positive interest and cannot be seized is a smoking gun.
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September 22, 2013, 11:07:07 AM
 #74

ha ha one thing I do like is in this whole threat is the cute way in which cunicula some how thinks the "Law" will deal with this ha ha....

{wipes some tears away from laughing} anyway ...


no friend , the market will deal with this , the "Law" is there to get the big guys.. , you know all the huge banks that have bankrupt your nation ha ha !

{wipes more tears...sniff}

{bursts out laughing again....}

{sigh....}

{thinking hmm maybe they are small enough to prosecute....??}

byemaster how many Senators have you go in your pocket?

you are going to need at least 3 , according to the "Help Kickstart WW3" video.

you are up for 30 million , to buy 3 Senators .

Never mind  the BTC "early adopters" ha ha ha !


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September 22, 2013, 02:55:34 PM
 #75

Anyone offering to pay you a positive interest rate on your btc forever[\b] is running a ponzi scheme.

Keep hitting that straw man...

First of all, as long as there are transaction fees in the network dividends can be paid and the holder of BitBTC can receive them. 
Second there is no debt in the system, unless you count 2x collateralized short positions debt.
Third, you must assume a VERY thin market before there would exist a condition where someone Long BitBTC wouldn't voluntarily give it up for a profit as a result of a short squeeze.
Fourth, if the volatility is high enough to wipe out the collateral then the BitBTC could face some losses in the short term.

The thing you are missing in all of this is the dividend paying asset generated by the profitable operation of a p2p exchange.   The BitBTC gets a share of these profits and can continue to get a share of these profits forever.  If profits go to 0 because all trading stops, then of course your asset is probably worth 0 and the non-0 value assumption for BitShares was expressed upfront.

By the way, when you finally do see the errors of your analysis I expect to see those 70 BTC that you have bet on this being a ponzi. 

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September 22, 2013, 03:04:41 PM
 #76

Dan, let this one go. He's beyond reason and has embraced the picture:



Cunicula, I have some advice that RDJ gave me about what you're doing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y3FzVQi-R8

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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September 22, 2013, 03:42:15 PM
 #77

Dan, let this one go. He's beyond reason and has embraced the picture:



Cunicula, I have some advice that RDJ gave me about what you're doing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y3FzVQi-R8

Yeah yeah its all above board sure thing, yes indeed anyone that questions this rock solid system is an idiot indeed ...

- good luck with everything, personally I think you are living in the 90's if you think anyone is going to fall for this - but then they say an idiot is born every minute , I'm not sure of the target rate for idiots - it may be 2.5 minutes or 2 minutes ?

- actually I don't even know what the acceptable target rate for an idiot is these days ?

- but if an idiot is actually born at least every 2.6 minutes you guys stand to make a packet ! some of those may have a double or triple reward , considering the latest IVF technical's

what's BitBTC target rate going to be?

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September 22, 2013, 03:43:13 PM
 #78

I purchase 1 bitBTC. I earn bitshares as my share of txn fees. I reinvest these txn fees to buy more bitBTC. Eventually, I have 100 million bitBTC. I earned all these from my share of txn fees you see.

I take these to a market trading bitBTC / BTC pairs. Something about longs and shorts, a prediction market, and other such nonsense ensures that I can always trade 1 bitBTC for about 1 BTC on average.

So now I make my trades and I have my 100 million BTC.

Okay, where do I sign up? We really gotta promote this thing hard!!!

Not sure which of these is the better marketing slogan:
(A completely risk free system to turn 1 BTC into 100 million BTC)
(A completely risk free system to turn 1 BTC into ownership of every single asset in the world. They will have to reintroduce slavery, so you will have new stuff to purchase.)
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September 22, 2013, 03:48:43 PM
 #79

Its a fool born every minute. Back when I was in high school there was a person born every minute.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

So if an idiot is someone you can fool some of the time, then by now they might be being born faster than one per minute.

But if an idiot is someone you can fool all of the time, well, the who you can fool quote isn't a lot of help in determining their birth rate.

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September 22, 2013, 03:48:50 PM
 #80

I purchase 1 bitBTC. I earn bitshares as my share of txn fees. I reinvest these txn fees to buy more bitBTC. Eventually, I have 100 million bitBTC. I earned all these from my share of txn fees you see.

I take these to a market trading bitBTC / BTC pairs. Something about longs and shorts, a prediction market, and other such nonsense ensures that I can always trade 1 bitBTC for about 1 BTC on average.

So now I make my trades and I have my 100 million BTC.

Okay, where do I sign up?






Wooh there , slow down ....

I think your above numbers are based on a 3 or 4 ipmb -  3 or 4 *Idiots Per Minute Born

Bitshare is only expecting I heard from 1 to 2 IPMB - *Idiots Per Minute Born , so you would have to shave that 100 million BTC down to maybe 80 Million , that being generous , but still a good profit...

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