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Author Topic: Stop the "correct horse battery staple" debacle.  (Read 2574 times)
bardi.harborow (OP)
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September 21, 2013, 11:46:00 PM
 #1

I call upon the great wisdom that is bitcointalk and request the knowledge necessary to finally spend the outputs that are 1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T. Even the great and mighty blockchain.info refuses to speak of the outputs. Ok, enough of the role playing. To get to my point, I am looking for a way to spent all the outputs of the aforementioned address to put an end to the blockchain spam. I am happy for all of the money to be spent as a miners fee. I would like it if it is possible for the solution to be a lightweight software solution (ie. no blockchain downloads).

Thanks.
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September 22, 2013, 12:36:57 AM
 #2

Looks like people have been trying to sweep this address automatically and manually...
https://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T

Saying that you don't trust someone because of their behavior is completely valid.
cp1
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September 22, 2013, 03:35:55 AM
 #3

I've always wondered what the fees would cost to do that.

Guide to armory offline install on USB key:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=241730.0
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September 22, 2013, 06:52:24 AM
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I've never really understood what's going on with that account? The private key is publicly known. But why all the double spends?

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September 22, 2013, 07:00:02 AM
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I've never really understood what's going on with that account? The private key is publicly known. But why all the double spends?

the system is being tested for exploitability
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September 22, 2013, 07:15:42 AM
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I've never really understood what's going on with that account? The private key is publicly known. But why all the double spends?

the system is being tested for exploitability

I thought that was what the testnet is for.

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September 22, 2013, 08:05:31 AM
 #7

The private key is publicly known. But why all the double spends?
You just answered your own question. Because the private key is known, the instant anyone sends coins to that address, somebody will attempt to transfer those coins to their own addresses before anyone else does. But since everybody else has the exact same plan, the result is a great many transactions from many different people all trying to spend the same coins.

Will pretend to do unspeakable things (while actually eating a taco) for bitcoins: 1K6d1EviQKX3SVKjPYmJGyWBb1avbmCFM4
I am not on the scammers' paradise known as Telegram! Do not believe anyone claiming to be me off-forum without a signed message from the above address! Accept no excuses and make no exceptions!
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September 22, 2013, 08:21:02 AM
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Do not even try to add the private key to your wallet  Smiley
And because many people try to spend the coins, it is not worth to try to do the same  Wink
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September 22, 2013, 08:28:26 AM
 #9

Looks like people have been trying to sweep this address automatically and manually...

Not just this address either. Brain wallets are dangerously insecure unless care is taken selecting the passphrase. Discussed at length in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251037.0

NEWBIES ... read that thread before you use a brainwallet. A badly chosen passphrase will lose your coin.

1Jest66T6Jw1gSVpvYpYLXR6qgnch6QYU1 NumberOfTheBeast ... go on, give it a try Grin
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September 22, 2013, 10:09:12 AM
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The private key is publicly known. But why all the double spends?
You just answered your own question. Because the private key is known, the instant anyone sends coins to that address, somebody will attempt to transfer those coins to their own addresses before anyone else does. But since everybody else has the exact same plan, the result is a great many transactions from many different people all trying to spend the same coins.

I thought of this but had the idea someone will get their transaction first (maybe a few milliseconds quicker) and that one would be accepted. All the rest that followed would double spend.

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September 22, 2013, 04:21:51 PM
 #11

I tried to import it into armory.py and got a seg fault.  I might try the new version.

Guide to armory offline install on USB key:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=241730.0
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April 08, 2014, 05:15:31 PM
 #12

People still arrive on http://brainwallet.org/#generator and think they are generating their own private brain wallet and they send to 1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T...

shorena
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April 08, 2014, 06:09:59 PM
 #13

Every single satoshi should be given to xkcd, its his password after all.



source: https://xkcd.com/936/

Im not really here, its just your imagination.
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April 09, 2014, 03:10:17 PM
 #14

Every single satoshi should be given to xkcd, its his password after all.



source: https://xkcd.com/936/

To be honest, I don't think the idea illustrated is correct.
Combining a few common words won't give you a great password at all.

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April 09, 2014, 03:26:18 PM
 #15

To be honest, I don't think the idea illustrated is correct.
Combining a few common words won't give you a great password at all.

It actually will as long as they are RANDOM words.  The random is the hard part.  Humans are actually very bad at coming up with random values.  If you ask people to pick a random number between one and ten a significant portion (usually 20% to 50%) will randomly pick seven and very few will pick one or ten.

Using a true random source like rolling dice is a good method to generate a secure passphrase.  Here is an example:
http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html

These were rolled randomly
chive eat oat puffy crust kiss = 63 bits of entropy (probably better than 99% of the non-random passwords used on this site right now)
chive eat oat puffy crust kiss long = ~80 bits of entropy (strong enough for most applications, roughly the equivalent of 12 digit random alphanumeric (Y22N^56a%$98)
chive edt oat puffy crust kiss long omaha lucky bank = ~128 bits of entropy (considered beyond brute force regardless of the computing power of the attacker)
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April 09, 2014, 03:36:35 PM
 #16

It actually will as long as they are RANDOM words.  The random is the hard part.  Humans are actually very bad at coming up with random values.  If you ask people to pick a random number between one and ten a significant portion (usually 20% to 50%) will randomly pick seven and very few will pick one or ten.

Apart from the "random" issue, there is one more problem.
The site quoted is using a list of 7776 English words, but if you ask me to pick a few words myself, I would probably be picking the words from just a few hundred words (probably items in my house, people's name, brand name etc.).

BTW, how is the entropy of the password calculated?

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April 09, 2014, 03:54:31 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2014, 04:35:43 PM by DeathAndTaxes
 #17

It actually will as long as they are RANDOM words.  The random is the hard part.  Humans are actually very bad at coming up with random values.  If you ask people to pick a random number between one and ten a significant portion (usually 20% to 50%) will randomly pick seven and very few will pick one or ten.

Apart from the "random" issue, there is one more problem.
The site quoted is using a list of 7776 English words, but if you ask me to pick a few words myself, I would probably be picking the words from just a few hundred words (probably items in my house, people's name, brand name etc.).

BTW, how is the entropy of the password calculated?

Well since each word is random and there are 7776 possible outcomes that means each word has Log(7776) = 12.925 bits of entropy each.   The entropy of the password would be # of words * entropy of each word.

5 words = ~64 bits    <- sufficient for low security applications*
6 words = ~78 bits
7 words = ~90 bits    <- sufficient for medium security applications*
8 words = ~102 bits   <- sufficient for high security applications* which rely on an additional factor (i.e. bitcoin wallet requires passphrase AND the actual wallet.dat)
9 words = ~116 bits   
10 words = ~130 bits  <- beyond brute force of nation states both today and into the conceivable future

* This assumes the passwords are stored securely using a key derivation function (strong hash, thousands of rounds, per record salt)

DISCLAIMER: I strongly recommend against using a brain wallet for any reason but if someone is going to use them they should have a realistic understanding of what level of entropy is necessary to prevent compromise.

Brain wallets require no second factor so the only security is a sequence which simply can't be brute forced by anything possible today (even by nation states) or for the foreseeable future.  >128 bits of password strength is considered beyond brute force due to the sheer energy requirements necessary to search that keyspace.  Remember with a brain wallet attacker(s) can simply precompute all probable keys (and that would include shorter diceware sequences).  They can continue forever and slowly expand the database of know addresses.  So the only real security would be a passphrase which is beyond brute force, anything else could have already been broken before you ever used it, or could be broken at any point in the future. 

So for RANDOM passphrases we are talking about:

Dicewords (7,776 words) = 10 symbols (words)
All keyboard symbols (95 unique printable symbols on standard US keyboard) = 20 symbols
Case sensitive alphanumeric (a-z, A-Z, 0-9) = 22 symbols
Case insensitive alphanumeric (a-z, 0–9) = 26 symbols
Case insensitive Latin alphabet (a-z) = 28 symbols
Arabic numerals (0–9) = 40 symbols

So of these sequences I know which one is the easiest for me to memorize
chive edt oat puffy crust kiss long omaha lucky bank
2q4$7hG33d$EAV$gsaR4
NSQPYAFSNTAKNPMVZDRRKWXXACVW
TU9MQW97U99D42Y7TS4J6EGGKN
3363486927993949454245366885937555332592

Remember this only applies to truly random sequences.  Human "random" passwords, ones based on symbol substitution (p@ssw0rd!), or taken from a book/move/song have significantly less entropy.  For most of those it is only a matter of time until they are precomputed by attackers.
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April 09, 2014, 04:01:35 PM
 #18


BTW, how is the entropy of the password calculated?

Well since each word is random and there are 7776 possible outcomes that means each word has Log(7776) = 12.925 bits of entropy each.   The entropy of the password would be # of words * entropy of each word.

5 words = ~64 bits
6 words = ~78 bits
7 words = ~90 bits
8 words = ~102 bits
9 words = ~116 bits
10 words = ~130 bits

I see. Thanks for your help.

I now finally understand why Electrum seed is just 128 bits when it has 12 words, it is simply because log1626/log 2*12 = 128.005
A seed is encoded with 12 words from a 1626 words dictionary.

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April 09, 2014, 05:51:12 PM
 #19

I see. Thanks for your help.

No problem.  Entropy (and randomness in general) is a hard thing for most people to grasp so if you get it, you are already ahead of the pack.  The entropy of truly random passwords is just a straightforward equation.  For human chosen passwords it gets a lot fuzzier.  Honestly humans are so bad at choosing strong passwords, most methods for estimating them are probably too optimistic.  Most human passwords can be easily broken unless per record salt and key stretching is used.  The bad news for users of a website for example is you have no idea how the site is storing passwords.  MtGox for example stored passwords using MD5 hash and no per record salt.  This site IIRC uses SHA-256 but doesn't employ any key stretching.  If users had a strong assurance how the password was used they could actually use shorter random passwords with confidence.  Also if the password is already compromised (and there are dictionaries of tens of millions of previously compromised passwords) the entropy is essentially zero.

Quote
I now finally understand why Electrum seed is just 128 bits when it has 12 words, it is simply because log1626/log 2*12 = 128.005
A seed is encoded with 12 words from a 1626 words dictionary.

I am not sure why 12 words from 1,626 was chosen but I am sure there is a reason.  At first glance it would seem a larger wordlist could have easily been used.

Code:
Wordlist  Words for 128bit  Notes
     1,626     12            "Special English" word lists for those learning English ~1,500 words (i.e. Voice of America word list)
     3,184     11            The average vocbulary for a non-native speaker is ~4,500 words
     7,132     10            A good subset of common vocabulary without too many overly complex words
    19,113      9            The average adult US native speaker has a vocabulary of ~20,000 words  (although a much smaller portion is used daily)
    65,536      8            Oxford English Dictionary (full 20 volume set) has 171,476
   319,558      7            Google books project has indexed ~1 million unique non-scientific words
 2,642,246      6     Beyond the limit of any single dictionary list. Including all unique record English words the upper limit is closer to 5M+ words.
50,859,009      5            I am taking a guess here but this is probably beyond the limit of all unique combinations of latin letters ever used in all languages on the planet.

So 12 words is probably using a shorter list than necessary but it only adds one or two words to the length of the key.
11 or 10 words is a good starting point if someone was developing a new system (could take out the ~600 least common words from diceware).
9 words might be possible but with 19,113 words needed you are looking at ~200KB in storage and probably going to need some less commonly known words.
8 or less is probably a poor design choice as to save one or two words you end up needing to use a dictionary with less common words like "jargogle" or "apricity".



The english language has grown significantly in the last century.
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April 09, 2014, 06:31:55 PM
 #20

If your username is not public it is pretty hard to enter your account

The blockchain system seems pretty efficient where your username is complicated and not public

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