Bitcoin Forum
November 24, 2017, 12:21:31 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Are Bitcoin securities Legal?  (Read 2951 times)
MikeyVeez
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196


View Profile
September 23, 2013, 10:36:02 PM
 #1

Hello,

To any of the lawyers on here. All the securities listed on BTCT, and these virtual stock exchanges are these legal in the USA? Are they exempt from SEC regulations, especially now with the new crowd funding rules? Do they not fall under any SEC regulation as it's in BitCoins?

Thanks
Join ICO Now A blockchain platform for effective freelancing
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1511482891
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511482891

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511482891
Reply with quote  #2

1511482891
Report to moderator
1511482891
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511482891

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511482891
Reply with quote  #2

1511482891
Report to moderator
1511482891
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511482891

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511482891
Reply with quote  #2

1511482891
Report to moderator
prophetx
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302


he who has the gold makes the rules


View Profile WWW
September 24, 2013, 12:39:44 AM
 #2

watching...

i thought that owning stock is legal as is person to person transfer of ownership (if you have a physical certificate), however the solicitation and exchange part is regulated

would love to get it straight from a securities lawyer, and one familiar with the new crowd fund rules (though they haven't been actually put together by the SEC?)

WINGS - get paid to forecast ICO valuations http://experimental.wings.ai - over $5 million in new token and Ether pay outs already
Chet
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 121


View Profile
September 24, 2013, 02:13:38 AM
 #3

As far as I can tell 'legal' in the US these days has more to do with how the various 'law enforcement agencies' feel on any given day than what may or may not be in the body of laws/rules/regulations.
In 50k or so laws/rules/regulations I am sure you can find justification for anything - for or against.
MSantori
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 168



View Profile
September 24, 2013, 03:13:06 AM
 #4

Many participants in the Bitcoin securities market are violating US law. Not all, but many.

Some US Issuers are selling unregistered, restricted securities by means of general advertisements*.

Some exchanges are unlicensed, but US-based.

Some purchasers are reselling their unregistered, restricted securities to unsophisticated, unaccredited investors within one year of purchasing.

Part 3 of Bitcoin Law, my multi-part series on Coindesk will address this.

Edit: The general solicitation rules are lifted as of today, but that doesn't make legal the sale of an unregistered restricted security to unlimited numbers of unaccredited and unsophisticated investors.

Marco Santori is a lawyer, but not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.  If you do have specific questions, though, please don't hesitate to PM me.  We've learned this forum isn't 100% secure, so you might prefer to email me.  Maybe I can help!  Depending upon your jurisdiction, this post might be construed as attorney advertising, so: attorney advertising Smiley
MikeyVeez
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196


View Profile
September 24, 2013, 03:34:59 AM
 #5

watching...

i thought that owning stock is legal as is person to person transfer of ownership (if you have a physical certificate), however the solicitation and exchange part is regulated

would love to get it straight from a securities lawyer, and one familiar with the new crowd fund rules (though they haven't been actually put together by the SEC?)

I just read up on it Today, the crowdfunding portion of the law has not yet taken effect, when it does you will still have to do some minor things, but then you can legally solicit investments to unaccredited investors. As of right now only accredited investors can invest, also given the fact that the US Supreme court, recently classified it as pretty much money, it is governed by SEC securities rules.

Santori, Can you expound upon then what would happen once the crowdfunding rules do get approved, then pretty much soliciting on here for securities to unaccredited investors would be fine correct?
Chet
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 121


View Profile
September 24, 2013, 04:26:05 AM
 #6



 As of right now only accredited investors can invest, also given the fact that the US Supreme court, recently classified it as pretty much money, it is governed by SEC securities rules.


The US Supreme Court has done such thing  - its not even in session.
freedomno1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372


Activity: 9001 == OP


View Profile WWW
September 24, 2013, 04:29:05 AM
 #7

Legal in the sense that no rules have been set out to regulate it yet
But when companies like Emgateway are swarmed with barriers to entry the bitcoin securities market would piss off the government.
Simply because they won't be able to decide who funds the investing directly to private investors.
Or in other words people who are not angel investors are able to invest in companies and governments hate that.
windjc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400


View Profile
September 24, 2013, 06:50:30 AM
 #8

My understanding is that the new crowdfunding law still prohibits non-accredited investors from investing. To be an "accredited" investor, you must have a net worth greater than $1 million or have an annual income greater than $200,000. In other words, they are making it easier for rich people to get richer, while excluding everyone else.

Although in actuality, they just have to ask you and you have to sign off on it. You do not have to prove your net worth or income.

If you haven't heard about what is happening with GAME, check it out.  It's revolutionizing gaming. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1266597.0
freedomno1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372


Activity: 9001 == OP


View Profile WWW
September 24, 2013, 06:59:46 AM
 #9

My understanding is that the new crowdfunding law still prohibits non-accredited investors from investing. To be an "accredited" investor, you must have a net worth greater than $1 million or have an annual income greater than $200,000. In other words, they are making it easier for rich people to get richer, while excluding everyone else.

Although in actuality, they just have to ask you and you have to sign off on it. You do not have to prove your net worth or income.

Pretty much hit the bullet unless you have a big wallet they don't want small investors building up companies

I guess also in recent news possibly related to btct this announcement came out of forbes recently
(we wont know till he explains the rationale in detail though)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyaprive/2013/09/23/general-solicitation-ban-lifted-today-three-things-you-must-about-it/

Title II of the JOBS Act as it takes effect today.

A public profile on a startup investment platform

It might not be a coincidence that this area was specifically mentioned in the act but I am just posturing for now.

What would this mean
Simply put any US transactions would be banned to make it simple.
JohnyBigs
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
September 24, 2013, 07:20:48 AM
 #10

Yes, currently not much has changed, besides general solicitations to accredited investors. Also, in doing so it becomes more of a burden to verify their accredited status, you need bank statements, noterized statements ect, instead of the simple self certification.
freedomno1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372


Activity: 9001 == OP


View Profile WWW
September 24, 2013, 07:24:19 AM
 #11

True enough but I am still curious what the wording of the recent changes will equate to when it comes to bitcoin securities
Till burnside explains why btct is closing not much else to do but postulate
JohnyBigs
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


View Profile
September 24, 2013, 07:48:53 AM
 #12

True enough but I am still curious what the wording of the recent changes will equate to when it comes to bitcoin securities
Till burnside explains why btct is closing not much else to do but postulate

The wording has nothing to do witb bitcoin just general securities solicitations, and since the Federal court lumped bitcoin securities solicitations under regular solicitations, under investment contracts they must follow the same laws.

An investment contract is any contract, transaction, or scheme involving (1) an investment of money, (2) in a common enterprise, (3) with the expectation that profits will be derived from the efforts of the promoter or a third party.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanmaglich/2013/08/07/court-green-lights-bitcoin-lawsuit-rules-investments-constitute-securities/

Basically the judge said since bitcoin can be exchanged for Fiat its considered money,  and therefore falls under that category.

Until crowdfunding rules take effect we're out of luck. By early 2014 crowdfunding should be approved.
prophetx
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302


he who has the gold makes the rules


View Profile WWW
September 24, 2013, 08:05:44 AM
 #13

Many participants in the Bitcoin securities market are violating US law. Not all, but many.

Some US Issuers are selling unregistered, restricted securities by means of general advertisements*.

Some exchanges are unlicensed, but US-based.

Some purchasers are reselling their unregistered, restricted securities to unsophisticated, unaccredited investors within one year of purchasing.

Part 3 of Bitcoin Law, my multi-part series on Coindesk will address this.

Edit: The general solicitation rules are lifted as of today, but that doesn't make legal the sale of an unregistered restricted security to unlimited numbers of unaccredited and unsophisticated investors.

looking forward to seeing this

have you, or can you address any legal issues that would occur if a company were to issue stocks in the form of "coins" (for lack of a better term, someone help me out here I am getting tired of using this term)

specifically do shares always need to be registered? what are registration requirements?

are there securities classes which are not restricted to the 1 year rule?  

if trading was down through a p2p blockchain network would all market participants would need to be registered (at least for US issuers)?  what about foreign holders of equity?

I have a thread on this topic here, more from a technical persepective but it would be great to get your take/comment

stock coins? p2p virtual stock equity / cryptostocks
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=292384.msg3222781#msg3222781

WINGS - get paid to forecast ICO valuations http://experimental.wings.ai - over $5 million in new token and Ether pay outs already
prophetx
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302


he who has the gold makes the rules


View Profile WWW
September 24, 2013, 08:08:07 AM
 #14

True enough but I am still curious what the wording of the recent changes will equate to when it comes to bitcoin securities
Till burnside explains why btct is closing not much else to do but postulate

did you notice that Atlantis is shutting down also... the overlap in timing, the LTC connection ...  makes one wonder... i'm not a conspiracy theorist, but just sayin´...

WINGS - get paid to forecast ICO valuations http://experimental.wings.ai - over $5 million in new token and Ether pay outs already
freedomno1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372


Activity: 9001 == OP


View Profile WWW
September 24, 2013, 04:31:38 PM
 #15

By its nature conspiracy theories are trying to explain the action of why something is going on, and to make sense of it even if the methods can be unusual.
In essence we are still looking at the idea of what is going on so conspiracy theorist or not if it can logically be explained it works as we are searching for relationships.

(If they didn't make that promotional video and put it up on youtube a few months ago  Wink)
prophetx
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302


he who has the gold makes the rules


View Profile WWW
September 24, 2013, 10:42:07 PM
 #16

By its nature conspiracy theories are trying to explain the action of why something is going on, and to make sense of it even if the methods can be unusual.
In essence we are still looking at the idea of what is going on so conspiracy theorist or not if it can logically be explained it works as we are searching for relationships.

(If they didn't make that promotional video and put it up on youtube a few months ago  Wink)

maybe i should go watch The Princess Bride for clues lol

WINGS - get paid to forecast ICO valuations http://experimental.wings.ai - over $5 million in new token and Ether pay outs already
freedomno1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372


Activity: 9001 == OP


View Profile WWW
September 24, 2013, 10:44:42 PM
 #17

By its nature conspiracy theories are trying to explain the action of why something is going on, and to make sense of it even if the methods can be unusual.
In essence we are still looking at the idea of what is going on so conspiracy theorist or not if it can logically be explained it works as we are searching for relationships.

(If they didn't make that promotional video and put it up on youtube a few months ago  Wink)

maybe i should go watch The Princess Bride for clues lol

Indirectly blames hollywood perhaps they are scared of people using bitcoin to buy DVD's snickers XD
But true enough the conspiracy theory needs a good logic line Smiley
polarhei
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448


Firing it up


View Profile
October 13, 2013, 02:02:15 PM
 #18

Questionable.

Currently the securities of the securities is the main problem as bitcoin is a two-face thing which calculated correctly with the specific arithmetic.

If you obtain money service license, Then the BTC security can be legal, in Hong Kong. 796.com obtains the permission to run pure of the pure.

danhu
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile WWW
October 14, 2013, 07:34:34 AM
 #19

who going to hold them accountable ?
dominicwin
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
October 14, 2013, 07:51:50 PM
 #20

who going to hold them accountable ?

If you sell a "bitcoin security" to an American, the SEC will eventually get involved if it peaks their curiosity.

CUBAN CIGARS for Sale - Full Boxes and Individual Cigars https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=299151.0
Austrian GOLD 1oz PHILHARMONICS -  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=330401.0
BUYING BTC HERE https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=334920.0
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!