How would a Bitcoin future be better?

[NewbieTheNoob]

There's a common belief in the Bitcoin community that Bitcoin will one day be one of the major global currencies, used as often as dollars and euros, and perhaps THE global currency, completely taking the place of the world's major currencies.  My question is, what would this be like, and in what ways would it be superior to our current situation?

Let's suppose that Bitcoin has taken the place of government currency in many of the world's major countries.  People are using it to conduct business, being paid in it, and so on.  Due to the relatively small number of bitcoins, everything is priced in satoshis.  Vast amounts of computer resources are being used to keep the network going, an enormous amount of electricity going to run the network and chase after the transaction fees and rewards still given each block.

How would this be better than our current financial system?

When I look at the ways in which Bitcoin is commonly said to be superior to government currency, I see the following:  No inflation, low transaction fees, ability to easily transmit money anywhere in the world, no government control of money, no banks controlling money, no chargebacks, possibly anonymous.

For the average person, many of these are going to be irrelevant.  Most people already aren't paying much if anything in the way of transaction fees to transfer money, most people have no need to transfer money to foreign countries, most people aren't too concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges.  As for removing banks, VISA, and so on from the system, this won't actually happen.  In order for a transaction to truly go through, it takes multiple blocks before the receiver of bitcoins can be sure they got the money, and this won't work at all if you're buying a burger and fries or a pair of jeans.  So there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store their bitcoins and which they will use to buy things with.  These will be regulated by the government, and they will charge various fees, just as today's banks and credit cards charge fees to individuals and businesses.  Bitcoin VISA cards will allow chargebacks.

The possible anonymity of bitcoin is one area which could be very different, but I'm not sure it will be.  Again, there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store and spend their money, so there's no anonymity there.  In addition, with the blockchain storing every single transaction ever made forever, it's questionable whether there really is any anonymity.  Cash is far more anonymous, although of course cash doesn't work online.  A bitcoin future would more easily allow online black markets.

Probably the one major change I can see which would impact the average person would be the lack of inflation.  The question is, would this be a good thing?

The average person has very little money.  If you're poor, you have no money, and if you're middle class, you still have very little money, but instead your wealth (if any) is stored in your house and some stocks you've invested in for your retirement.  No longer losing 2% to 4% a year of the few thousand dollars (or few thousand dollars worth of bitcoins) you have in the bank is not going to make much difference for the average person.  Few people are actually losing much money due to inflation, since people invest their money and earn a rate of interest at least equal to inflation.

One could make the argument that the entire economic system would be better off without inflation, although this is exactly the opposite of what mainstream economists believe.  It's generally believed that a small amount of inflation is good for the economy, as this encourages everyone to invest money instead of hoarding it under their mattress, which allows those who need money to be able to easily borrow it.  But it may well be that economists are wrong, and an economic system without inflation might be far better.

So, are there other ways which I haven't listed in which a bitcoin future would be better than our current system?  Would we really be better off without inflation, and if so, why?  

[1714026694]

1714026694

[Stephen Gornick]

How would this be better than our current financial system?

Look at your nearest larger metro area.

What buildings are the tallest?   If that is like most every other larger metro area, then you answered "a large bank or financial institution".

The financial industry is currently nearly 20% of the U.S. economy [Edit: 20% of all corporate income in the U.S.] .... and much larger even in some regions (e.g., NYC).

Where do their incomes comes from?   Of course, from you ..., from me, etc.

Did you or anyone you know pay an overdraft?   That's a fee that does not exist with bitcoin.  

How about a monthly account maintenance fee?   Again, ... unless a third party E-Wallet is assessing a fee, such charges don't exist in Bitcoinland.

So Bitcoin makes it possible that entire parts of the banking and financial industry are no longer needed or are dramatically simplified such that the banks can no longer suck rent from us as they currently do thanks to their regulated monopoly / cartel.

[knight22]

OP should really watch the vids in my signature

[DannyHamilton]

Most people already aren't paying much if anything in the way of transaction fees to transfer money,

Sure they are, they just don't know it because it's hidden from them.  Every time someone pays with a credit card or debit card a significant transaction fee is paid in addition to the cost associated with the risk of chargeback/fraud.  This fee is hidden by the merchant in the purchase price of whatever is being paid for.

most people have no need to transfer money to foreign countries,

Perhaps not, bu many of the things that they buy were manufactured or assembled in other countries.  Reducing the cost to the business that is acquiring these items to sell to the consumer can reduce the costs to the consumer without reducing the profits of the merchant.

most people aren't too concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges.

Any merchant that accepts electronic payments is concerned about this.  Reducing chargebacks and fraud can reduce costs for the merchant which can be passed on as reduced costs for the consumer.

As for removing banks, VISA, and so on from the system, this won't actually happen.  In order for a transaction to truly go through, it takes multiple blocks before the receiver of bitcoins can be sure they got the money

This is not necessarily true.  For low value transactions, one confirmation is plenty.  For transactions between trusted parties the transaction can be accepted immediately.

there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store their bitcoins and which they will use to buy things with. These will be regulated by the government, and they will charge various fees, just as today's banks and credit cards charge fees to individuals and businesses.  Bitcoin VISA cards will allow chargebacks.

Possibly, possibly not.  I'd be interested in borrowing your crystal ball if it has a significant level of accuracy in predicting what will happen in the future.

[Mike Christ]

Fiat currencies are generally inflationary because it gives governments control over where the wealth is; since wealth is not generated when more money is printed, but rather, divided evenly with every new bill issued, then it's simple to transfer wealth from the individual to the elite; with every dollar printed, the individual purchasing power is watered down.  If we can equate wealth to power, this is a direct transfer of power which individuals have into a central source; people must then rely on this central source of power to get anything really done.

However, the opposite occurs with a currency which deflates.  Since governments cannot do what I've described above, but rather, it is the individual where the power is continually pushing toward, as the individual's purchasing power is always increasing, as opposed to decreasing, then the question becomes:

Would the future be better if power was centralized, or decentralized?

My answer is, the centralization of power always leads to abuse (i.e. corruption; check out North Korea for a modern look at the extreme end of the centralization of power, or one could generally look at their own nation and be hard pressed not to see any corruption), while the decentralization of power leads to a much more even playing ground.  A deflationary currency, then, places that power back into the hands of the individual, and decreases his dependency on a centralized source, but on himself, and his needs alone.

[NewbieTheNoob]

How would this be better than our current financial system?

Look at your nearest larger metro area.

What buildings are the tallest?   If that is like most every other larger metro area, then you answered "a large bank or financial institution".

The financial industry is currently nearly 20% of the U.S. economy .... and much larger even in some regions (e.g., NYC).

Where do their incomes comes from?   Of course, from you ..., from me, etc.

Did you or anyone you know pay an overdraft?   That's a fee that does not exist with bitcoin.  

How about a monthly account maintenance fee?   Again, ... unless a third party E-Wallet is assessing a fee, such charges don't exist in Bitcoinland.

So Bitcoin makes it possible that entire parts of the banking and financial industry are no longer needed or are dramatically simplified such that the banks can no longer suck rent from us as they currently do thanks to their regulated monopoly / cartel.

Monthly bank account fees and overdraft fees make up only a small amount of the financial industry's income.  They make their money from making $200,000 home loans and $10,000,000 loans to businesses.  People will obviously still need home loans and business loans in a Bitcoin future.  Included in the financial industry is the stock market and various types of investments and insurance, all of which will still exist.  If it is true that there are no more $10 monthly bank account fees for those with small balances, and no more overdrafts on checks, this will have little effect on the average person.

[NewbieTheNoob]

Most people already aren't paying much if anything in the way of transaction fees to transfer money,

Sure they are, they just don't know it because it's hidden from them.  Every time someone pays with a credit card or debit card a significant transaction fee is paid in addition to the cost associated with the risk of chargeback/fraud.  This fee is hidden by the merchant in the purchase price of whatever is being paid for.

most people have no need to transfer money to foreign countries,

Perhaps not, bu many of the things that they buy were manufactured or assembled in other countries.  Reducing the cost to the business that is acquiring these items to sell to the consumer can reduce the costs to the consumer without reducing the profits of the merchant.

most people aren't too concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges.

Any merchant that accepts electronic payments is concerned about this.  Reducing chargebacks and fraud can reduce costs for the merchant which can be passed on as reduced costs for the consumer.

As for removing banks, VISA, and so on from the system, this won't actually happen.  In order for a transaction to truly go through, it takes multiple blocks before the receiver of bitcoins can be sure they got the money

This is not necessarily true.  For low value transactions, one confirmation is plenty.  For transactions between trusted parties the transaction can be accepted immediately.

there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store their bitcoins and which they will use to buy things with. These will be regulated by the government, and they will charge various fees, just as today's banks and credit cards charge fees to individuals and businesses.  Bitcoin VISA cards will allow chargebacks.

Possibly, possibly not.  I'd be interested in borrowing your crystal ball if it has a significant level of accuracy in predicting what will happen in the future.

Of course, you're correct that consumers are ultimately paying the cost for the credit card fees that businesses pay, and for credit card chargebacks which businesses might get hit by.  These result in businesses having to charge higher prices for their products to make up for the loss.

If none of these existed in our Bitcoin future, you might see the average person paying 3 or 4% less when they made purchases.  However, we know that at least some of these fees will exist, because there are already transaction costs for any bitcoin transaction.  They're currently very low, but in the future they would likely be higher.  Eventually there will be no more block rewards, and everyone running the network will be doing so in order to get the transaction fees.

I don't think one needs a crystal ball to see that there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards.  People today could store all of their cash in their mattress, or in a box buried in the back yard, but they don't.  One might need to keep one or two thousand dollars in the bank to have enough to cover bills, but any extra money could be stored in cash at home.  But most everyone keeps any excess cash in the bank, where it is safe.  In the same way, bitcoins stored "at home" can easily be lost in a variety of ways.  A Bitcoin bank would be guaranteed by the government, 100% safe, and would pay interest on deposits over a certain amount.

And, let's assume that stores are willing to wait for only one block to go through to confirm a transaction before they let people make a purchase using Bitcoin.  The average block takes 10 minutes (meaning an average wait of 5 minutes), but will regularly be 15 to 30 minutes before it goes through.  No one is going to want to sit in Walmart or in Mcdonalds waiting up to half an hour for the transaction to go through, when they could just use a Bitcoin credit card(or debit card) and have the transaction go through instantly.  Especially when the Bitcoin credit card fees are charged to the business, not to them.  No business is going to want to have everything gummed up by having unhappy customers hanging around the lobby for up to half an hour waiting for transactions to go through, so they'll all take the bitcoin credit cards.

If the Bitcoin protocol could be changed to allow instant transactions, then you could do without bitcoin credit cards, but I'm fairly sure this is not possible.  So, you're guaranteed to have bitcoin credit cards, bitcoin banks, and the various fees involved with them.

[EmperorBob]

There are ways to make 0-confirmation transactions entirely safe for a merchant (it requires a trusted third party to co-sign spending requests). This can be automated, has no fraud risk, and requires very little working capital. No chargebacks either.

Even if it's the same companies running the show, their costs will be very low, (and it'll be easier for competitors to spring up). That's most of the costs associated with credit cards gone entirely.
People will still need loans, and maybe savings accounts, but checking accounts (the ones that pay no interest and are just so you can use the bank's money transfer tools) will be obsolete. That's a huge chunk of most people's money.

Plus there's 100+ countries that right now have no real way to spend/transfer funds online, and a billion+ people that have no bank account. They will both benefit massively from a system that gives them the benefits of our existing financial infrastructure without the onerous requirements.

[DannyHamilton]

I don't think one needs a crystal ball to see that there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards.  People today could store all of their cash in their mattress, or in a box buried in the back yard, but they don't.

Some do.

One might need to keep one or two thousand dollars in the bank to have enough to cover bills, but any extra money could be stored in cash at home.  But most everyone keeps any excess cash in the bank, where it is safe.

Many people do store cash at home instead of using banks. The only reason banks seem "safe" is because of a very reliable insurance policy (FDIC). Perhaps instead of banks, there will be insurance underwriters that will write policies insuring the bitcoins you store at home? Ask Cyprus citizens about the safety of storing deposits in banks.  A big part of why people store their money at banks because it is convenient (direct deposit, ACH debit, paper checks, overdraft protection, internet based electronic payment, etc).  Bitcoin offers the potential for similar convenience without the need to rely on the bank.

A Bitcoin bank would be guaranteed by the government, 100% safe, and would pay interest on deposits over a certain amount.

Possibly, or perhaps not.  Perhaps a bitcoin "bank" would be privately insured, or individuals ould get their own savings insured without needing to deposit in a bank.  Perhaps individuals would be required to pay a fee to a "bank" for the services the bank provies instead of earning "interest".

And, let's assume that stores are willing to wait for only one block to go through to confirm a transaction before they let people make a purchase using Bitcoin.  The average block takes 10 minutes (meaning an average wait of 5 minutes), but will regularly be 15 to 30 minutes before it goes through.  No one is going to want to sit in Walmart or in Mcdonalds waiting up to half an hour for the transaction to go through, when they could just use a Bitcoin credit card(or debit card) and have the transaction go through instantly.  Especially when the Bitcoin credit card fees are charged to the business, not to them.  No business is going to want to have everything gummed up by having unhappy customers hanging around the lobby for up to half an hour waiting for transactions to go through, so they'll all take the bitcoin credit cards.

If bitcoin succeeds it will be a paradigm shift.  You are still thinking along the lines of how things work now.  There is no guarantee that they would work the same under a bitcoin based economy.  There are so many possibilities.  Most of them probably haven't even been thought of yet (meaning you and I haven't thought of them yet either so we are unable to discuss the possibilities).

Here's just one example of a possibility that wouldn't require customers to "wait around for 10 minutes":

Customers make a bitcoin deposit to the merchant as they enter the establishment.  Then they do their shopping.  By the time they are done shopping, they've already got 1 or more confirmations.  As they check out, the merchant simply sends them back their change.  The customer is free to leave imediately.

This may or may not be a likely scenario.  The point is that things don't have to operate the way they do right now.  Entrepreneurs will come up with amazing ideas, and the best ideas will earn significant profits.

If the Bitcoin protocol could be changed to allow instant transactions, then you could do without bitcoin credit cards, but I'm fairly sure this is not possible.  So, you're guaranteed to have bitcoin credit cards, bitcoin banks, and the various fees involved with them.

You are welcome to your opinion.  Time will be the final arbiter of such things.

[ronimacarroni]

One aspect that people don't talk about often is p2p lending.
I mean I don't know if it'd work for mortgages, but there is a lot of potential and bitcoin makes it easier.

[BombaUcigasa]

Most people already aren't paying much if anything in the way of transaction fees to transfer money, most people have no need to transfer money to foreign countries, most people aren't too concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges.

My bank debits my account every month regardless of me giving or taking their money. Bitcoin is free to store.

My bank/VISA/Mastercard/PayPal, takes 2-4% off my payment when the money reaches a merchant. Bitcoin is potentially free with about 0.3% fees now.

My bank/VISA/Mastercard/PayPal, take 2-3% off my payment when I use one currency and the merchant uses another currency. Bitcoin has 0% fees, and at the moment somewhat larger conversion fees, something to work on.

My bank takes 2 weeks to send 1000 USD from one country to another. Or Western Union takes 7% for the same feat over 15 minutes. Bitcoin takes 1 hour and 0%.

Why do you think these improved efficiencies and savings are irrelevant to the average person?

Most people are not concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges? Yes, most people are not merchants or providers. But you see, ALL merchants and providers are concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges, so much that they tax everyone else more to cover the losses.

In all cases listed, Bitcoin is better (except maybe the fiat gateways).

And we have not discussed any of the extra benefits Bitcoin gives.

[adamstgBit]

Most people already aren't paying much if anything in the way of transaction fees to transfer money,

Sure they are, they just don't know it because it's hidden from them.  Every time someone pays with a credit card or debit card a significant transaction fee is paid in addition to the cost associated with the risk of chargeback/fraud.  This fee is hidden by the merchant in the purchase price of whatever is being paid for.

most people have no need to transfer money to foreign countries,

Perhaps not, bu many of the things that they buy were manufactured or assembled in other countries.  Reducing the cost to the business that is acquiring these items to sell to the consumer can reduce the costs to the consumer without reducing the profits of the merchant.

most people aren't too concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges.

Any merchant that accepts electronic payments is concerned about this.  Reducing chargebacks and fraud can reduce costs for the merchant which can be passed on as reduced costs for the consumer.

As for removing banks, VISA, and so on from the system, this won't actually happen.  In order for a transaction to truly go through, it takes multiple blocks before the receiver of bitcoins can be sure they got the money

This is not necessarily true.  For low value transactions, one confirmation is plenty.  For transactions between trusted parties the transaction can be accepted immediately.

there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store their bitcoins and which they will use to buy things with. These will be regulated by the government, and they will charge various fees, just as today's banks and credit cards charge fees to individuals and businesses.  Bitcoin VISA cards will allow chargebacks.

Possibly, possibly not.  I'd be interested in borrowing your crystal ball if it has a significant level of accuracy in predicting what will happen in the future.

Of course, you're correct that consumers are ultimately paying the cost for the credit card fees that businesses pay, and for credit card chargebacks which businesses might get hit by.  These result in businesses having to charge higher prices for their products to make up for the loss.

If none of these existed in our Bitcoin future, you might see the average person paying 3 or 4% less when they made purchases.  However, we know that at least some of these fees will exist, because there are already transaction costs for any bitcoin transaction.  They're currently very low, but in the future they would likely be higher.  Eventually there will be no more block rewards, and everyone running the network will be doing so in order to get the transaction fees.

I don't think one needs a crystal ball to see that there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards.  People today could store all of their cash in their mattress, or in a box buried in the back yard, but they don't.  One might need to keep one or two thousand dollars in the bank to have enough to cover bills, but any extra money could be stored in cash at home.  But most everyone keeps any excess cash in the bank, where it is safe.  In the same way, bitcoins stored "at home" can easily be lost in a variety of ways.  A Bitcoin bank would be guaranteed by the government, 100% safe, and would pay interest on deposits over a certain amount.

And, let's assume that stores are willing to wait for only one block to go through to confirm a transaction before they let people make a purchase using Bitcoin.  The average block takes 10 minutes (meaning an average wait of 5 minutes), but will regularly be 15 to 30 minutes before it goes through.  No one is going to want to sit in Walmart or in Mcdonalds waiting up to half an hour for the transaction to go through, when they could just use a Bitcoin credit card(or debit card) and have the transaction go through instantly.  Especially when the Bitcoin credit card fees are charged to the business, not to them.  No business is going to want to have everything gummed up by having unhappy customers hanging around the lobby for up to half an hour waiting for transactions to go through, so they'll all take the bitcoin credit cards.

If the Bitcoin protocol could be changed to allow instant transactions, then you could do without bitcoin credit cards, but I'm fairly sure this is not possible.  So, you're guaranteed to have bitcoin credit cards, bitcoin banks, and the various fees involved with them.

I lol'd

also

bitcoin payments are instant.

and it is possible to validate a tx, without the help of the network, after all every node has to full tx history, and is actively monitoring the network. they won't add a confirmation because they aren't mining, but they can instantly check to see if the tx is valid / not a double spend. and be 100% or 99.99%  certain that the tx will get confirmed.

i'm surprised no one has made this possible already, i'm not entirely sure, but I think this is possible. and likly to be the way to go for instant confirmation, call it "confirmed-by-owner"

[westkybitcoins]

When I look at the ways in which Bitcoin is commonly said to be superior to government currency, I see the following:  No inflation, low transaction fees, ability to easily transmit money anywhere in the world, no government control of money, no banks controlling money, no chargebacks, possibly anonymous.

For the average person, many of these are going to be irrelevant.  Most people already aren't paying much if anything in the way of transaction fees to transfer money, most people have no need to transfer money to foreign countries, most people aren't too concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges.  <snip>  So there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store their bitcoins and which they will use to buy things with.

<snip>

Again, there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store and spend their money, so there's no anonymity there.

<snip>

Probably the one major change I can see which would impact the average person would be the lack of inflation.  The question is, would this be a good thing?

The average person has very little money.  If you're poor, you have no money, and if you're middle class, you still have very little money, but instead your wealth (if any) is stored in your house and some stocks you've invested in for your retirement.  No longer losing 2% to 4% a year of the few thousand dollars (or few thousand dollars worth of bitcoins) you have in the bank is not going to make much difference for the average person.  Few people are actually losing much money due to inflation, since people invest their money and earn a rate of interest at least equal to inflation.

I think it's clear that you have an extremely U.S.-centered perspective here. Worse, it's a U.S.-centered perspective that seems to primarily focus on allegedly "average" individuals who have socially acceptable "good" jobs, use banks, have loans and credit cards, follow all the laws, pay all their taxes, and generally behave like good little citizens and "do everything right." Apparently, there are entire swaths of even the U.S. demographic alone that you don't seem to rub elbows with on anything close to a regular basis.

I think if you examine just how valid your analysis of "average people" (U.S. and worldwide) is, you will probably see some of the answers to your questions on your own.

[QuestionAuthority]

How would a Bitcoin future be better?

Who cares if it's a better system or not because we would be the rich early adopters at the top.

[BombaUcigasa]

How would a Bitcoin future be better?

Who cares if it's a better system or not because we would be the rich early adopters at the top.

That is also valid. But the question would be "How would a future with Bitcoin be better?".

[Stephen Gornick]

Who cares if it's a better system or not because we would be the rich early adopters at the top.

Bitcoin exists as a payments system that is resistant to censorship and corruption.  An example of corruption in the present payment networks is a credit card chargeback occurring due to fraud -- either friendly fraud or identity theft, etc.   The costs of this fraud are a burden to all of us as the merchants increase their prices to accommodate the payment card network fees (merchant fees) and losses to unwarranted chargebacks.

Bitcoin doesn't have this expense, and this is one tiny example.

So don't obsess over who earns a one-time profit by having taken the risk of speculating on bitcoins.     Instead appreciate how Bitcoin is a growing competitor to the entrenched systems, and how we now have a method of transacting without having to pay the extortion that we currently do to the financial and banking regulated monopolies.

[LiteCoinGuy]

There's a common belief in the Bitcoin community that Bitcoin will one day be one of the major global currencies, used as often as dollars and euros, and perhaps THE global currency, completely taking the place of the world's major currencies.  

actually, no.

[ronimacarroni]

There's a common belief in the Bitcoin community that Bitcoin will one day be one of the major global currencies, used as often as dollars and euros, and perhaps THE global currency, completely taking the place of the world's major currencies.  

actually, no.

I don't see why not.
#%@$ the central banks.

[QuestionAuthority]

Noble causes are great. I do like the fact that Bitcoin makes it difficult for government to steal from us, transactions can go around the world in minutes instead of days, it's cheaper to send money long distance and once sent the transaction is final. That's all wonderful but really the other reasons are what people are here for and why they work so hard. A very small group (devs, coders) are here because it's an interesting edgy subcategory of their career field. They can achieve something special using their talents here. Business people, another tiny group, are here to capture the top of a new market and profit in ways they could never have done in a more mainstream business. The last small group of people, radical libertarians, would follow satan to the depths of hell to disrupt the status quo so Bitcoin is secondary to the goal and not the goal itself. The last small group is the con artist. They're here because it's easy to screw the good natured people that are here for other reasons. Then we have the main large group of users where I'm at currently. These people found out about mining and speculative profit (easy money). They started collecting Bitcoins and watching charts to find out where and when to sell their mining profit to pay their electric bill and line their pockets. If they weren't the largest group the the con artist group couldn't fuck so many people in search of increased revenue. Oh sure, it's fun to be involved with something edgy and disruptive, no doubt, but it's not the reason to be here for this group or everyone mining would also be at Porcfest every year or marching on their capital in protest.

[DannyHamilton]

- snip -
A very small group (devs, coders) are here because it's an interesting edgy subcategory of their career field.
- snip -
Business people, another tiny group, are here to capture the top of a new market and profit in ways they could never have done in a more mainstream business.
- snip -
The last small group of people, radical libertarians
- snip -
The last small group is the con artist. They're here because it's easy to screw the good natured people that are here for other reasons.
- snip -
Then we have the main large group of users where I'm at currently. These people found out about mining and speculative profit (easy money).
- snip -

I don't seem to fit into any of your "groups".  I guess there must be other reasons people are here.

[ronimacarroni]

Oh sure, it's fun to be involved with something edgy and disruptive, no doubt, but it's not the reason to be here for this group or everyone mining would also be at Porcfest every year or marching on their capital in protest.

Well maybe we should occupy the fed.
Row row fight da powa. 

[QuestionAuthority]

- snip -
A very small group (devs, coders) are here because it's an interesting edgy subcategory of their career field.
- snip -
Business people, another tiny group, are here to capture the top of a new market and profit in ways they could never have done in a more mainstream business.
- snip -
The last small group of people, radical libertarians
- snip -
The last small group is the con artist. They're here because it's easy to screw the good natured people that are here for other reasons.
- snip -
Then we have the main large group of users where I'm at currently. These people found out about mining and speculative profit (easy money).
- snip -

I don't seem to fit into any of your "groups".  I guess there must be other reasons people are here.

Maybe you are, there are always fringe elements in every society that defy classification.

[DannyHamilton]

- snip -
Maybe you are, there are always fringe elements in every society that defy classification.

Ok, now that's a group I might fit into.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Monthly bank account fees and overdraft fees make up only a small amount of the financial industry's income.

That hasn't been true for a long time.  


http://www.bankrate.com/finance/investing/fdic-study-outrageous-overdraft-fees-1.aspx


I don't have a cite but I believe 2009 was the first year that fees (both interchange and service/overdraft/etc) made up more than half of Bank Of America's revenue.  BofA isn't unique it was just a headline that they collected more revenue from fees then from interest for the first time.

[QuestionAuthority]

Oh sure, it's fun to be involved with something edgy and disruptive, no doubt, but it's not the reason to be here for this group or everyone mining would also be at Porcfest every year or marching on their capital in protest.

Well maybe we should occupy the fed.
Row row fight da powa. 

Thank you, you fit perfectly.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Oh sure, it's fun to be involved with something edgy and disruptive, no doubt, but it's not the reason to be here for this group or everyone mining would also be at Porcfest every year or marching on their capital in protest.

Not necessarily.

Although I agree, most are here for profit, and there is nothing wrong with that. They are building the infrastructure which promotes financial freedom whether that is their intention or not. Satoshi designed Bitcoin with that in mind.

This.  Some people just like working with electronics.  Hell I have bought a (small number) of ASICs just to experiment with immersion cooling.   It might pay off, it might give me free hot water & heat for life, or it might just be an interesting experiment.  Lots of people have built custom Folding@Home rigs with no chance of financial payoff. 

The same reason people spend lots of money on fixing up cars, or building a kit airplane, or modding computer cases.

[QuestionAuthority]

Oh sure, it's fun to be involved with something edgy and disruptive, no doubt, but it's not the reason to be here for this group or everyone mining would also be at Porcfest every year or marching on their capital in protest.

Not necessarily.

Although I agree, most are here for profit, and there is nothing wrong with that. They are building the infrastructure which promotes financial freedom whether that is their intention or not. Satoshi designed Bitcoin with that in mind.

This.  Some people just like working with electronics.  Hell I have bought a (small number) of ASICs just to experiment with immersion cooling.   It might pay off, it might give me free hot water & heat for life, or it might just be an interesting experiment.  Lots of people have built custom Folding@Home rigs with no chance of financial payoff. 

The same reason people spend lots of money on fixing up cars, or building a kit airplane, or modding computer cases.

You two are helping me make my point. Yes, there is the small membership of the community that is here to stimulate themselves intellectually. They usually post in the dev & tech section of the forum. They are the clear minority. The obvious scams that have been perpetrated here (Holliday you know how pissed I was at all the stupid people falling for the Pirateat40, Clipse and Goat scam, you were in that thread) have proven to me that profit is king here. Even if it's obviously a pure scam.

[DannyHamilton]

You two are helping me make my point. Yes, there is the small membership of the community that is here to stimulate themselves intellectually. They usually post in the dev & tech section of the forum. They are the clear minority. The obvious scams that have been perpetrated here (Holliday you know how pissed I was at all the stupid people falling for the Pirateat40, Clipse and Goat scam, you were in that thread) have proven to me that profit is king here. Even if it's obviously a pure scam.

Bah.

You are equating the bitcointalk community with the bitcoin economy.

More than 90% of the people that I engage in bitcoin transactions with have never even heard of bitcointalk.org.

The world is much larger than you seem to realize.

[QuestionAuthority]

You two are helping me make my point. Yes, there is the small membership of the community that is here to stimulate themselves intellectually. They usually post in the dev & tech section of the forum. They are the clear minority. The obvious scams that have been perpetrated here (Holliday you know how pissed I was at all the stupid people falling for the Pirateat40, Clipse and Goat scam, you were in that thread) have proven to me that profit is king here. Even if it's obviously a pure scam.

Bah.

You are equating the bitcointalk community with the bitcoin economy.

More than 90% of the people that I engage in bitcoin transactions with have never even heard of bitcointalk.org.

The world is much larger than you seem to realize.

Ok, when I say here I mean the Bitcoin user base. That includes a lot of people on Reddit and IRC that never post here, sure.

[QuestionAuthority]

You two are helping me make my point. Yes, there is the small membership of the community that is here to stimulate themselves intellectually. They usually post in the dev & tech section of the forum. They are the clear minority. The obvious scams that have been perpetrated here (Holliday you know how pissed I was at all the stupid people falling for the Pirateat40, Clipse and Goat scam, you were in that thread) have proven to me that profit is king here. Even if it's obviously a pure scam.

I honestly believe the victims of various scams are in the minority. They are just louder than the non-victims.

I don't go around pointing out that I didn't fall for this or that scam, yet I haven't.

People also tend to take more risks when they have a layer of abstraction. Why do you think casinos use chips? Bitcoin has been, in the eyes of many, a "token" from the start. As Bitcoin continues to gain acceptance, people will see it less as a token and more as actual money.

Some of us have seen it as money from the start, and we don't throw it at every extremely risky "opportunity" presented to us.

Maybe, but I look at the dollar amount of just the Pirate scam and realize that there were a hell of a lot of people that never said a word. They just took their beating and moved on.

[DeathAndTaxes]

You two are helping me make my point. Yes, there is the small membership of the community that is here to stimulate themselves intellectually. They usually post in the dev & tech section of the forum. They are the clear minority. The obvious scams that have been perpetrated here (Holliday you know how pissed I was at all the stupid people falling for the Pirateat40, Clipse and Goat scam, you were in that thread) have proven to me that profit is king here. Even if it's obviously a pure scam.

That is just human nature.  Every scam, foolish business venture, manipulation, or outright theft has already occurred countless times in the non Bitcoin world.  Credit card theft is a multi billion dollar a year enterprise.  Madoff conned tens of billions out of supposedly smart investors and for every Madoff their are a thousand less successful ponzis.  Penny stock pump and dumps have been around forever and people still fall for them today.  Hell people still wire money to Nigeria in order to pay the processing fees for their millions.

[QuestionAuthority]

You two are helping me make my point. Yes, there is the small membership of the community that is here to stimulate themselves intellectually. They usually post in the dev & tech section of the forum. They are the clear minority. The obvious scams that have been perpetrated here (Holliday you know how pissed I was at all the stupid people falling for the Pirateat40, Clipse and Goat scam, you were in that thread) have proven to me that profit is king here. Even if it's obviously a pure scam.

That is just human nature.  Every scam, foolish business venture, manipulation, or outright theft has already occurred countless times in the non Bitcoin world.  Credit card theft is a multi billion dollar a year enterprise.  Madoff conned tens of billions out of supposedly smart investors and for every Madoff their are a thousand less successful ponzis.  Penny stock pump and dumps have been around forever and people still fall for them today.  Hell people still wire money to Nigeria in order to pay the processing fees for their millions.

Very true. Everyone should question everything presented to them. Greed and respected authorities screw them because their real main motive is unreasonable profit.

Back to Holiday's original assessment of my motives and what began this discussion: No, I'm in the majority now. Love is the bread of life but money is the honey.

[ronimacarroni]

You two are helping me make my point. Yes, there is the small membership of the community that is here to stimulate themselves intellectually. They usually post in the dev & tech section of the forum. They are the clear minority. The obvious scams that have been perpetrated here (Holliday you know how pissed I was at all the stupid people falling for the Pirateat40, Clipse and Goat scam, you were in that thread) have proven to me that profit is king here. Even if it's obviously a pure scam.

That is just human nature.  Every scam, foolish business venture, manipulation, or outright theft has already occurred countless times in the non Bitcoin world.  Credit card theft is a multi billion dollar a year enterprise.  Madoff conned tens of billions out of supposedly smart investors and for every Madoff their are a thousand less successful ponzis.  Penny stock pump and dumps have been around forever and people still fall for them today.  Hell people still wire money to Nigeria in order to pay the processing fees for their millions.

Very true. Everyone should question everything presented to them. Greed and respected authorities screw them because their real main motive is unreasonable profit.

Back to Holiday's original assessment of my motives and what began this discussion: No, I'm in the majority now. Love is the bread of life but money is the honey.

You don't get it.
Greed is not the problem. People who claim they want to combat greed are the problem.

[DannyHamilton]

You don't get it.
Greed is not the problem. People who claim they want to combat greed are the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8y6DJAeolo

 

[QuestionAuthority]

You two are helping me make my point. Yes, there is the small membership of the community that is here to stimulate themselves intellectually. They usually post in the dev & tech section of the forum. They are the clear minority. The obvious scams that have been perpetrated here (Holliday you know how pissed I was at all the stupid people falling for the Pirateat40, Clipse and Goat scam, you were in that thread) have proven to me that profit is king here. Even if it's obviously a pure scam.

That is just human nature.  Every scam, foolish business venture, manipulation, or outright theft has already occurred countless times in the non Bitcoin world.  Credit card theft is a multi billion dollar a year enterprise.  Madoff conned tens of billions out of supposedly smart investors and for every Madoff their are a thousand less successful ponzis.  Penny stock pump and dumps have been around forever and people still fall for them today.  Hell people still wire money to Nigeria in order to pay the processing fees for their millions.

Very true. Everyone should question everything presented to them. Greed and respected authorities screw them because their real main motive is unreasonable profit.

Back to Holiday's original assessment of my motives and what began this discussion: No, I'm in the majority now. Love is the bread of life but money is the honey.

You don't get it.
Greed is not the problem. People who claim they want to combat greed are the problem.

Greed isn't the problem. Controlling it with logic and knowledge is necessary. All of us seem to be lacking in those two areas. Common sense kicks in for some and others succumb to it easily. I've never heard of anything that combats greed other than the legal system. Pirate can tell you all about that one.

[ronimacarroni]

You don't get it.
Greed is not the problem. People who claim they want to combat greed are the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8y6DJAeolo

 

You're in a bitcoin forum.
You're risking your money hoping that'll it'll appreciate in value as opposed to living it safe under your mattress.
By modern standards, you're greedy.

[DannyHamilton]

You're risking your money hoping that'll it'll appreciate in value as opposed to living it safe under your mattress.

Where did you get that idea?

[ronimacarroni]

You're risking your money hoping that'll it'll appreciate in value as opposed to living it safe under your mattress.

Where did you get that idea?

Well there is no such thing as an investment that doesn't come with a risk.

[DannyHamilton]

You're risking your money hoping that'll it'll appreciate in value as opposed to living it safe under your mattress.

Where did you get that idea?

Well there is no such thing as an investment that doesn't come with a risk.

Including an investment in the underside of your mattress (risk of loss of purchasing power due to inflation, risk of theft, risk of fire or natural disaster).

[ronimacarroni]

You're risking your money hoping that'll it'll appreciate in value as opposed to living it safe under your mattress.

Where did you get that idea?

Well there is no such thing as an investment that doesn't come with a risk.

Including an investment in the underside of your mattress (risk of loss of purchasing power due to inflation, risk of theft, risk of fire or natural disaster).

[westkybitcoins]

I've never heard of anything that combats greed other than the legal system.

Whooo boy....

[johnyj]

The most significant difference is: Banks print money to exchange for your work, but bitcoin miners mine the coins to exchange for your work

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

Few are seeing the big picture.

If you want to see the big picture, if you want to be positively blown away by all the ways Bitcoin will change the world, I invite you to read one of the classic works by Ludwig von Mises or other Austrian economist, like Socialism*, so you can see all the ways the current system of centralized power is massively screwed up, staggeringly inefficient and unjust, and suffocating to human progress. Then realize that Bitcoin can fix all of that by decentralizing power.

In bland and general terms, we're talking about a tremendously higher standard of living for everyone in the world (even the current power elite, although less so), a jetpack strapped to the back of technological advancement, the Internet showing its true power, a vast clearing away of suffering and injustice of many kinds...it sounds unbelievable until you realize just how messed up things are currently, and why. Much like the early Internet, people who understand this often avoid mentioning all this because it sounds "too good to be true," yet it is true - in fact even these gushing forecasts probably will be looked at as lacking in imagination in 20 years.

*For a much lighter, quick read, try this comic book: http://imgur.com/account/hegawid/albums

[zachcope]

In a bitcoin future the benefits might include:

• Globalisation for individuals, rather than just corporations, as goods, services and ideas can flow regardless of government efforts.
• Reduced poverty due to easier ex pat remittances followed by increased economic productive opportunities in the poorest countries.
• The brightest most talented people spending time on science, medicine, engineering, arts that benefit mankind rather than being incentivised to work in banks.
• The wisdom of individuals in the crowd determining who benefits from investments and loans rather than pension fund managers following their peers blindly.
• Incentives to consume sensibly, and invest or save otherwise, mitigating our impact on the earth.
• Cheaper sports events as no one is paying for corporate tickets for pension fund managers

That's the first few things I hope for!