BFL - How about upping the Ghash/s on units to compensate for delays?

[Its About Sharing]

This thread went over very well over at the BFL forum.   https://forums.butterflylabs.com/post-sales-customer-service/4943-how-about-upping-ghash-s-units-compensate-delays.html
Want to get your opinions here. Josh made his presence felt but customers came out quoting him and basically put him and BFL in their place.
The behavior of BFL and Avalon (Yifu here) is hopefully not a sign of things to come.

KNC Miner is not even late but because of the hash rate jumping up, they are, according to them, upping the units significantly.
Other companies, a few, are offering forms of insurance (discounts, more Ghash/s, etc.) in exchange.

I think our units, many of them if not most, will not even break even with the continued delays.

I see Jalapeno's have only shipped 2 days worth since the end of August, this is right before the big jump in hash/difficulty is expected. The September promise is clearly gone.
The outsourced assembly, well, what can we say? Where is it? Not to sound hard, but this is unacceptable at this time, unless they plan on catching up in 2 weeks.

Some form of compensation to benefit both customers and BFL is really in order here.

I understand that BFL can't keep up with orders as it is and more Ghash/s wouldn't help them, but some form of compensation needs to be dealt out. And, with due respect, I don't mean a discount on a Monarch or the like.

BTC Helper

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[Zeek_W]

fat chance!

[GigaWave]

If they did that, they would have to compensate everyone. It's far to late to do that, they are quite likely barley treading water now. And if anything the first month(possibly something for the second month people(sliding scale would even be appropriate after first month)) buyers deserve it more than anyone.  While BFL is shady, anyone that bought a unit at current prices, dug their own grave.

[Its About Sharing]

If they did that, they would have to compensate everyone. It's far to late to do that, they are quite likely barley treading water now. And if anything the first month(possibly something for the second month people(sliding scale would even be appropriate after first month)) buyers deserve it more than anyone.  While BFL is shady, anyone that bought a unit at current prices, dug their own grave.

Well, BFL is going to feel pressure from many directions:
Competitors - Watch what others do regarding offering insurance, more Ghash/s, etc.
Customers - I don't imagine many repeat customers.
Legal - The lawsuits are for sure on the way and with all Josh's talking, there is a lot of evidence out there.

Listening to the interview on LTB with KNC Miner is telling. The part owner said something along the lines of "We wouldn't ship a unit if there wasn't going to be a good return on it. " I didn't get his words
right but it was clear they aren't just "a hardware company" like Josh at BFL hid behind. Also, it looks like there 400Ghash/s units are going to ship with quite a bit more power. After all this with BFL, nothing,
nada, regarding making things right with the customer. Well, that is if you don't count a credit towards a 600Ghash/s Monarch for January, I mean February, or is it March delivery now? BFL had a huge
delay with the Jalapenos recently as they outsourced production (they said). We don't know the numbers of orders, but it is sure a coincidence that Jalapeno's are at a crawl for weeks now.

I'm not sure Josh is shady, think he had good intentions initially, but to accept soooooooo many orders, to the point that they are a year behind, is just criminal, literally. That is plain bad business.

IAS

[smoothie]

Won't happen.

BFL's solution: Monarch


And the cycle repeats.

[razorfishsl]

It is a very smooth con.....

Are people seriously believing that suddenly they can process a months orders in less than 4 days, when it was taking them 3 months to process them in the past.
And bullshit about 'extra staff', it does not take nearly 8 months to figure something out then solve it in a week.

They knew there was a new product and that is how they knew they would come close to meeting the  Sept/Oct deadline for completing orders.

This whole slow shipping charade has been  designed to hold the money for as long as possible, prior to the 'announcement'.



To top it off I pulled my KNCminer orders, purely because  orders placed with two companies went pear shaped after they turned out to be cowboys.

Basic..
BFL

I could not afford to be shafted a 3rd tim, all this kit was supposed to backup a mining company in Jan/May of this year.

Just wish KNC had  made the press statement earlier and I would have stuck with it.

[Puppet]

Fun fact: (assuming prompt shipments and no other issues pop up), even though KnC delivered well above spec and pretty much on schedule (not gonna nag over a day or two), even though they are the first 28nm asic on the market, the investors that gambled on this best case scenario are still not sure of a [positive] bitcoin denominated ROI. They may or may not achieve it, depending how its competition and particularly Hashfast executes, but it looks like it will be a very, very close call. If hashfast is as successful as KnC, it seems likely no profit will be made.

Think about it, KnC is pretty much a best case asic preorder scenario and this best case still results in a relatively small chance of profit, and a small profit at that.

As for BFL customers; they got screwed a looong time ago. Dont expect BFL to suddenly begin caring about customers or promises or even FTC rules. The only thing they will offer is screwing you over even worse by "upgrading" your order to their next fiasco for just a few thousand dollar.

[amencon]

Fun fact: (assuming prompt shipments and no other issues pop up), even though KnC delivered well above spec and pretty much on schedule (not gonna nag over a day or two), even though they are the first 28nm asic on the market, the investors that gambled on this best case scenario are still not sure of a [positive] bitcoin denominated ROI. They may or may not achieve it, depending how its competition and particularly Hashfast executes, but it looks like it will be a very, very close call. If hashfast is as successful as KnC, it seems likely no profit will be made.

Think about it, KnC is pretty much a best case asic preorder scenario and this best case still results in a relatively small chance of profit, and a small profit at that.

As for BFL customers; they got screwed a looong time ago. Dont expect BFL to suddenly begin caring about customers or promises or even FTC rules. The only thing they will offer is screwing you over even worse by "upgrading" your order to their next fiasco for just a few thousand dollar.

Yeah as a Day 1 Jupiter customer I think I have one of the best chances of at least break-even than other near future ASIC customers moving forward and yet I'm not at all convinced break-even is a given.  Things might get rough as customers start to realize the losses they are about to incur on their ASIC investments.  Then again maybe the BTC price will spike again and people will use it as justification that their bad investments were actually great, hah.  Should be good drama whatever ends up happening.

While I commend KNC on their accomplishments and have had fun following this whole ordeal, from a strict investment standpoint, even making a small profit won't prove this out to have been a smart investment considering the opportunity cost of the tied up funds and the risk involved.  Though I did know what I was signing up for and am not upset or bitter how things have turned out in the slightest bit. 

Good luck to everyone out there with outstanding ASIC orders, and may god have mercy on the souls of those with orders for Monarchs.

[Its About Sharing]

Yep, the days of a company coming out with a really profitable unit are probably numbered. Barring a newer tech that gets us something extreme, it probably isn't going to happen (and if so, many if not most companies would mine them first.) At this point what KNC Miner did is pretty nice, hats off to them. They did more than customers expected. Perhaps communication can be a bit better and it is sad to say that all of the manufacturers are in the same boat there.

But what BFL did and is doing set the standard for F'ing customers over and on so many levels at that.
Go through and read that BFL thread link. Look at how Josh tried to defend himself (pretty badly I might add) and how customers, using his own quotes shot him down pretty nicely.
At a very basic level, how do you accept so many orders that after a year you can't even fulfill? That is criminal and will probably be treated as such.


It is just sick to see what BFL did. Seeing guys waiting months on end for orders in the 10's of thousands of dollars (and just for Jalapeno's as well). No real apology, just "We're a hardware company."
If Intel or other "hardware companies" did what BFL did and is doing, they'd be shut down and paying all they earned in lawsuits... Well, the year isn't over yet.
Oh, and hats off to Yifu and Avalon - hope you guys get every bit of profit taken from you in lawsuits as well for what you did to thousands of people.

Where ever there is money to be made, criminals will about but with that said, let's not lose sight of what BTC can and will be. That is the much bigger picture.

IAS

[Syke]

BFL is finished.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/5127-knc-will-not-time-so-josh-correct-yah-right-3.html#post60015

So basically, I paid 2x as much(30k for 1.5TH), and will not get my unit for another two months. Fucking Fantastic.

[fattypig]

Anybody tried asking for refund? It is no longer profit at this rate...

[j68r]

To top it off I pulled my KNCminer orders, purely because  orders placed with two companies went pear shaped after they turned out to be cowboys.

Lucky escape then, every cloud and all that...

there's no ROI to be had on any of the current hardware not already plugged in and hashing. If you want to hold some BTC, just buy them.