[ANN] Nxt :: descendant of Bitcoin

[metacoin]

Why would you use blockchain.info's message field to store the messages instead of having people sign messages and post them in this thread or on your website?

You're introducing an unnecessary step which is also a centralized solution to a problem that can be solved in a number of existing decentralized ways.

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[BCNext]

Cool twist on the PoS/Mastercoin idea.

You should clarify and put in the OP a specific datetime (blockchain time) by which the issuing stops.
Is 03/Jan/2014 the official launch date for Nxt?

Also, I think you should have used some incentive for early adopters.
Mastercoin gave 10% bonus per week before the deadline.
Here, everybody has the incentive to wait until the last possible minute before sending their satoshis.

Since the deadline is still about 3 months in the future, I think it's still ok to change the protocol and include such a bonus. I wouldn't use 10% per week though ... let's see we still have about 11 weeks to go. MSC had a ~40% bonus over 1 month, and the short investment period was criticized. I propose giving Nxt users 5% bonus per week prior to the deadline. Fractional week counts as the appropriate fraction of 5%.

It's actually an interesting experiment in game theory. You intended the sent amounts to be small, but you might gather up a non-trivial amount in your address.

I assume the funds sent to 1BCN1ugdKdWd9pQ8Am9hMhtHZfmbXzxE8a will be used for developing the protocol/related bounties? Is this stated anywhere? This should be added to the OP.

BTW, it's really too bad you didn't use a vanity address for your version of 1Exodus.

Good luck, I will be following this.
If you want we can chat sometime and you can tell me about the vision of this new alt (ping me at ron@bitblu.com).

I am thinking of setting an early adopter bonus, but I will do it after all main features are implemented and people can see it's not a vaporware.  The funds will be used to develop services accepting Nxt.

Btw, I did use a vanity address (1BCN1ugdKdWd9pQ8Am9hMhtHZfmbXzxE8a).

[BCNext]

Why would you use blockchain.info's message field to store the messages instead of having people sign messages and post them in this thread or on your website?

You're introducing an unnecessary step which is also a centralized solution to a problem that can be solved in a number of existing decentralized ways.

Blockchain.info is a public service, when the genesis block is published anyone will easily check that it matches transactions on the transfer address.  It's much easier to verify a SHA256 hash than a message signed with a Bitcoin address.

[metacoin]

Why would you use blockchain.info's message field to store the messages instead of having people sign messages and post them in this thread or on your website?

You're introducing an unnecessary step which is also a centralized solution to a problem that can be solved in a number of existing decentralized ways.

Blockchain.info is a public service, when the genesis block is published anyone will easily check that it matches transactions on the transfer address.  It's much easier to verify a SHA256 hash than a message signed with a Bitcoin address.

It is usually easier to implement a poor solution than a good one. Your entire genesis block relies upon the functionality of one closed-source website?

Anyway, cool idea, but I'll stay away. Satoshi didn't really introduce digital currency to the world with Bitcoin, they introduced a decentralized solution to an existing problem. It seems you do not share the same vision.

[BCNext]

Could you offer a better solution?  It's not late to change the way we collect data for the genesis block.

[metacoin]

Store the hashes in the Bitcoin blockchain using CHECKMULTISIG or commitcoin protocol. I'd go with the former.

Alternatively you can use Florin messages to store the hashes, I can help you make an open source solution for this which can be easily deployed to the web, if you are comfortable with alt-coin blockchains (other than your own).

[BCNext]

Hm, I think I'll stick to the original solution.  Your way looks too complicated for average users.  Thank you anyway.

[bitwhizz]

watching

[BCNext]

I created a thread for Nxt API (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=313082.0).

I will split my time between bootstrapping and API so those who is developing services for Nxt can complete the development as soon as possible.

[kriwest]

Your way looks too complicated for average users.

I'm glad that you think this way. Hopefully it will show in the design of NXT as well.
IMO ease of use is one of the main things needed for wider adoption of any crypto. People should just "get it" straight away without having to know much about computers. They should be able to understand the benefits of using NXT almost immediately, and be able to get their own wallet "just like that". Plug and play.

The one thing that makes me a bit wary of installing bitcoin on my father's computer is security. He doesn't know squat about how to keep his PC secure, and no doubt has loads of malware on it. Me and him use the same bank, and I love that they require you to use a physical authenticator with a bank ID card in it. That way, even if someone is keylogging my dad's computer - he and I can still log in to our bank accounts from his computer without anyone stealing our passwords.. it's a new one time code every time, generated by the physical authenticator.

Blizzard entertainment (the company behind World of Warcraft) has something similar.. they also have a mobile authenticator app that you can install on your smartphone for extra security. I would love to see something like that.

Edit: I posted about this in the bitcoin discussion section too and got a good reply, with a link to Trezor.

[metacoin]

You can do the work of decentralizing a system behind the scenes while maintaining a user-friendly front end experience. The two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Edit: For example, BCNext could release a modified light version of the Bitcoin client that has an interface containing a large button which allows you to create a multisig transaction to store the NXT hash into the blockchain. This is a better solution than using blockchain.info because it would be an open source solution, no trust is involved, and it's easier than signing up for a new account on blockchain.info.

"Your way looks too complicated for average users" is not a valid response to any of the methods I laid out, considering the user experience is completely in BCNext's hands.

In the end, the blockchain.info method will probably work out without any problems at all, but it is worrisome that such a seriously flawed solution is being chosen to seed the genesis block of this new alt-coin.

[BCNext]

I think blockchain.info suits well enough.  We need it only for 2 months until the community approves the genesis block.  After that it will be published here to be quoted by anyone.

Edit:  I have no spare time to work on a light version of Bitcoin client.  There is still a lot of work to be done to launch a currency that can be used not only for speculation.

[metacoin]

I think blockchain.info suits well enough.  We need it only for 2 months until the community approves the genesis block.  After that it will be published here to be quoted by anyone.

What about people who wish to get NXT coins from their Bitcoins after the genesis block is created? Surely you won't rely on blockchain.info forever.

I would urge you to look into one of the solutions I posted, or propose another one with similar merits. At least outline a plan for people to migrate their Bitcoins into your chain that doesn't rely on the existence of this one feature of blockchain.info's website for the entirety of your alt-coin's lifespan.

[BCNext]

There will be NO way to get NXT coins from their BTC after the genesis block is created.

Edit: Oh, they can buy NXT for BTC from someone who owns NXT.  But we are talking about other issue, aren't we?

[metacoin]

There will be NO way to get NXT coins from their BTC after the genesis block is created.

This was not stated in your original post.

If your system is based purely on proof-of-stake, what prevents me from executing a sybil attack and getting 90% of the NXT coins on release? At that point I would have a majority of proof-of-stake, and I would be able to double spend every transaction.

What prevents people from gaining 51% of stake in NXT from the beginning?

[BCNext]

This was not stated in your original post. That is an important point.

Good advice, I will do it.

If your system is based purely on proof-of-stake, what prevents me from executing a sybil and getting 90% of the NXT coins on release?

This hasn't come to my mind...  Any ideas how to counteract sybil attack?
Maybe now, when you revealed such problem, someone else will try it too and you both have to compete and this will be too expensive?  If 10 people will try to buy a lot of NXT they will get 10% in average...

What prevents people from gaining 51% of stake in NXT if there are no new coins created and there is no mining in this system?

In PoW currency you can remine a block to build a longer chain.  In Nxt the order of generating accounts is determined, you can't create a long chain that contains blocks generated solely by you.  With 51% of the stake the odds to generate a longer chain with 10 blocks are less than 0.1%.  If someone buys a car with NXT they can wait a little bit longer to counteract even 90% attack.

[BCNext]

To those who is developing services.  Use [Decode token] request to authorize users, please.  Get rid of your own registration/authorization.  Nxt authorization tokens provide a safe way to log into a site without prior registration.  If you send money only to the user's account obtained from the token you don't even need a 2-factor auth.

[ranmn7]

Sounds interesting, watching.

[XertroV]

This seems like a not-so-well thought out idea.

How does one claim ownership of Nxt funds once the genesis block is mined? They just put in the password? Since there's no signature confirming the initial TX, I suspect anyone else can also attempt to redeem the coins (in the same way redeeming an output like "OP_SHA256 <hash> OP_EQUAL" can be stolen by a miner, as there is no way to validate intended outputs).

What happens to the BTC sent to your address? You keep them?

Why not take all the public keys from transactions to your 'exodus'-esq address and assign them values at launch? All a user needs to do is import her privkey for the address they sent funds from and you have a more decentralised setup phase which doesn't require using a hash in a private database stored as a 'public message'.

On an economic tangent, you say there's no need to send large amounts to your address, but if the amount of Nxt you receive is proportional to the amount of BTC you send, you end up with the same wealth distribution we have in Bitcoin now (or similar enough - those who can pay more will, and thus control a similar-ish chunk of the Nxt pie).

Economics is not my area of expertise.  I can say nothing about the issue.

Then why are you trying to design a currency?

[cunicula]

Are you going to put out a whitepaper, so whatever you are doing can be peer reviewed?
Core defeciency of PPC in my opinion was a lack of transparency in the POS design and a lack of receptiveness to criticism.

I don't think you will have much luck persuading people to switch unless you explain exactly what you are doing in precise detail.  

Comparing an established opaque system to a novel opaque system, I think the established opaque system wins every time.

Also, do not start rewarding early adopters until everything has been made transparent. Otherwise you will be criticized as an opportunist scamcoin creator. You want your early adopter group to be serious about the coin's long term future. if you start putting in incentives etc., then you will attract speculators rather than real enthusiasts.