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Author Topic: If we lived in a libertarian society  (Read 256 times)
BADecker
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August 06, 2018, 01:01:39 PM
 #21

Actually, we DO live in a libertarian society. People who rule other people through deception are using their freedom to do it. People who do not fight off those who deceive them are using their freedom to live that way... or to die because of it.

Consider being a hostage in a hostage situation. Your captor points a gun at your head and says, "Do this immoral sex act, or I will kill you." Now it is your turn to select your government. Is your government going to be your captor? Or is it going to be your morals? You are free to decide. If you accept your captor as your government, your choice. Pure libertarianism... at least on your part.

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Owen_Smith
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August 06, 2018, 08:20:56 PM
 #22

Actually, we DO live in a libertarian society. People who rule other people through deception are using their freedom to do it. People who do not fight off those who deceive them are using their freedom to live that way... or to die because of it.

Consider being a hostage in a hostage situation. Your captor points a gun at your head and says, "Do this immoral sex act, or I will kill you." Now it is your turn to select your government. Is your government going to be your captor? Or is it going to be your morals? You are free to decide. If you accept your captor as your government, your choice. Pure libertarianism... at least on your part.

Cool
Interesting thoughts. I guess that when most people talk about a libertarian society, they imagine one in which people have less restrictions on their freedom. It's probably just a semantics issue. It depends what your connotation of libertarianism. If it really just means that anybody can choose to do whatever they want then that would be true of just about anybody. If you live in North Korea, for example, you are technically free to choose to do anything you want. You just probably won't like the consequences, if you do what you want. I suppose you could say that we have a libertarian society where many people have taken it upon themselves to think up punishments for any behavior that they deem inappropriate.
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August 11, 2018, 07:49:02 PM
 #23

I'm not sure we will ever live in a truly libertarian society in the original sense of the word because libertarian idea implies government decentralization, which is seen by many as a utopian idea. I like the core idea of Libertarianism, but is it really possible?
Sutters Mill
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August 11, 2018, 08:15:10 PM
 #24

If we live in a libertarian society , where you were able to run a free market paradise , without hurting anyone of course ...

What business would you run?

What type of libertarian society do you mean? One with no government controls at all? In that case I'd have some sort of Hunger Games / The Purge type scenario where you can run around killing anyone you like  Grin. Total anarchy is never great as people can't be trusted to play nice.

On a serious note I kinda like how a whole cannabis industry has popped up in some US states and other countries like the Netherlands. If cannabis was legal in my country I would probably open up a dispensary /smoking room. I haven't smoked weed since my teens but I don't agree with drug prohibition and I know it would make a great business here and take in a lot of money. I quite like the idea of social cubs or coffee shops in Amsterdam where people just go to chill have a chat and coffee or maybe even play a game of pool. Will probably be a long time before it's legal in my country but hopefully we can take after the states once they see the industry is working and they're missing out on millions in taxes.

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August 11, 2018, 08:42:37 PM
 #25

If we live in a libertarian society , where you were able to run a free market paradise , without hurting anyone of course ...

What business would you run?

What type of libertarian society do you mean? One with no government controls at all? In that case I'd have some sort of Hunger Games / The Purge type scenario where you can run around killing anyone you like  Grin. Total anarchy is never great as people can't be trusted to play nice.

On a serious note I kinda like how a whole cannabis industry has popped up in some US states and other countries like the Netherlands. If cannabis was legal in my country I would probably open up a dispensary /smoking room. I haven't smoked weed since my teens but I don't agree with drug prohibition and I know it would make a great business here and take in a lot of money. I quite like the idea of social cubs or coffee shops in Amsterdam where people just go to chill have a chat and coffee or maybe even play a game of pool. Will probably be a long time before it's legal in my country but hopefully we can take after the states once they see the industry is working and they're missing out on millions in taxes.
What makes you actually think that people would want to go around killing others? Couldn't they at least be deterred by the fact that others could kill them? That is a good question though. There is a lot of talk about libertarianism on this forum. I never quite thought out completely the police bit. I wonder what would happen with crime in a libertarian society.

Cannabis sounds like a great business idea. Maybe you could just move to a country where it's legal and get on that. Wink
Sutters Mill
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August 12, 2018, 05:32:51 PM
 #26


What makes you actually think that people would want to go around killing others?

Because people already do. If you got rid of all laws and punishments what do you think happens? It would be literal anarchy.

Couldn't they at least be deterred by the fact that others could kill them? That is a good question though. There is a lot of talk about libertarianism on this forum. I never quite thought out completely the police bit. I wonder what would happen with crime in a libertarian society.

It would be kill or be killed. Like the wild wild west (wikki wikki wah wah).

Cannabis sounds like a great business idea. Maybe you could just move to a country where it's legal and get on that. Wink

Sure, let me just leave all my friends and family to go to a foreign country just to start a business. This isn't something I'm desperate to do but would do if in my own country if it was ever legaslized, but I'd like to stay in my home country right now thnx.
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August 12, 2018, 07:37:37 PM
 #27


What makes you actually think that people would want to go around killing others?

Because people already do. If you got rid of all laws and punishments what do you think happens? It would be literal anarchy.

Couldn't they at least be deterred by the fact that others could kill them? That is a good question though. There is a lot of talk about libertarianism on this forum. I never quite thought out completely the police bit. I wonder what would happen with crime in a libertarian society.

It would be kill or be killed. Like the wild wild west (wikki wikki wah wah).

Cannabis sounds like a great business idea. Maybe you could just move to a country where it's legal and get on that. Wink

Sure, let me just leave all my friends and family to go to a foreign country just to start a business. This isn't something I'm desperate to do but would do if in my own country if it was ever legaslized, but I'd like to stay in my home country right now thnx.
Thanks for answering.

Well, most people don't kill people actually. Your logic is that they don't kill people because it's illegal? People already use heroin, for example. If it was legalized, do you think people would start using heroin in masses, like the wild wild West?

Well, I guess your friends and living in a familiar country take priority over the cannabis business. That's totally fine. I was just putting it out there as an option.
BADecker
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August 13, 2018, 02:44:58 PM
 #28

The Bible pretty much is the best guide for non-aggression. Why? Because all the forms of accidental and intentional aggression are dealt with properly, according to the non-aggression principle, in the Bible.
Cool
New testament is fairly non-aggressive. But the Old Testament! Oh my  Grin
OT should be flagged as "not for under 18" because it contains some explicit violence. Its principle being "an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth" would turn the whole world blind and toothless.
But you must already know this. Check out Buddhism or M. Luther King if you want to know what non-violence is.
Sorry for the off topic, but I'm sensitive to exaggeration.

The Old Testament "eye for eye," etc., is simply a form of self defense. I mean, if someone hits you for no reason, are you happy with that? You might be able to shrug off a simple bruise. But what about when he starts killing off you children? That's part of what O.T. law is about. The rest of it is about how God reacts to people hurting Him and themselves by sinning against Him and creation (often themselves). Doesn't God have the right to self-defense, and defense of His children?

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Sutters Mill
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August 15, 2018, 01:45:02 PM
 #29


Thanks for answering.

Well, most people don't kill people actually. Your logic is that they don't kill people because it's illegal? People already use heroin, for example. If it was legalized, do you think people would start using heroin in masses, like the wild wild West?

Well, I guess your friends and living in a familiar country take priority over the cannabis business. That's totally fine. I was just putting it out there as an option.

I didn't say most will, but the law of the land would change significantly and it goes back to more lawlessness. You will find there is more murders and rapes etc where there's very little going to be done about it. Obviously the threat of punishments and even the death penalty doesn't stop people from killing or committing crimes, but I would see it as going to some sort of post-apocalyptic scenario where it's everyone for themselves and you fend for your own life and family. There will be certainly less systems in place to prevent and investigate such crimes after they've happened I think.

The Bible pretty much is the best guide for non-aggression. Why? Because all the forms of accidental and intentional aggression are dealt with properly, according to the non-aggression principle, in the Bible.
Cool
New testament is fairly non-aggressive. But the Old Testament! Oh my  Grin
OT should be flagged as "not for under 18" because it contains some explicit violence. Its principle being "an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth" would turn the whole world blind and toothless.
But you must already know this. Check out Buddhism or M. Luther King if you want to know what non-violence is.
Sorry for the off topic, but I'm sensitive to exaggeration.

The Old Testament "eye for eye," etc., is simply a form of self defense. I mean, if someone hits you for no reason, are you happy with that? You might be able to shrug off a simple bruise. But what about when he starts killing off you children? That's part of what O.T. law is about. The rest of it is about how God reacts to people hurting Him and themselves by sinning against Him and creation (often themselves). Doesn't God have the right to self-defense, and defense of His children?

Cool

There's also another great saying: An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The bible also says many other contradictory things like turn the other cheek, love your neighbor and so on.
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August 15, 2018, 09:39:04 PM
 #30

I didn't say most will, but the law of the land would change significantly and it goes back to more lawlessness. You will find there is more murders and rapes etc where there's very little going to be done about it. Obviously the threat of punishments and even the death penalty doesn't stop people from killing or committing crimes, but I would see it as going to some sort of post-apocalyptic scenario where it's everyone for themselves and you fend for your own life and family. There will be certainly less systems in place to prevent and investigate such crimes after they've happened I think.
Sadly, I think you're right about lawlessness increasing. I just like to think that it wouldn't quite be like the "Wild Wild West". I still think that most people would want to do good things. I don't know enough about libertarian ideas to talk about it in depth. I don't know what libertarians typically think about law, police, and justice. I'm sure they would be in support of having less systems like that. I'd love to hear any libertarians' perspectives on this, if their reading.
BADecker
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August 16, 2018, 01:29:50 AM
 #31


There's also another great saying: An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The bible also says many other contradictory things like turn the other cheek, love your neighbor and so on.

You seem to want to remain without understanding. There is no contradiction in the Bible.

Eye-for-eye is the job of the government, to retain peace and justice among the people. Go back and read. It is stated in the context of government.

Turn-the-other-cheek is an exhortation to put up with a bit of pain from another, rather than to start a big fight.

"Love your neighbor as yourself," is simply to recognize that other people feel about themselves as you feel about yourself... because we are all people. Even the crook or murderer wants love for himself. Peace in love... or do you want strife and fighting?

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Owen_Smith
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August 16, 2018, 08:43:57 PM
 #32


There's also another great saying: An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The bible also says many other contradictory things like turn the other cheek, love your neighbor and so on.

You seem to want to remain without understanding. There is no contradiction in the Bible.

Eye-for-eye is the job of the government, to retain peace and justice among the people. Go back and read. It is stated in the context of government.

Turn-the-other-cheek is an exhortation to put up with a bit of pain from another, rather than to start a big fight.

"Love your neighbor as yourself," is simply to recognize that other people feel about themselves as you feel about yourself... because we are all people. Even the crook or murderer wants love for himself. Peace in love... or do you want strife and fighting?

Cool
I don't think it's so useful to compare these things. Eye for an eye is from the Old Testament. Christ come to the Earth and fulfilled the law of the Old Testament. We can read this in Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (see also Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15). In place of the laws of the Old Testament, Christians should now follow the law of Christ.

Matthew 5:38-39 read:
Quote
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Christ was teaching that we shouldn't take a vengeance. We shouldn't try to get back a people that do us wrong. It won't actually help anything.
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October 23, 2018, 06:14:04 PM
 #33

I'd open the business of free listening to music.
This is a really good and creative idea for business.
Wanted to listen to music - listened.
And no annoyance to you.
Permanent relaxation in the public domain.
bluefirecorp_
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October 23, 2018, 10:53:00 PM
Last edit: October 24, 2018, 08:22:54 PM by bluefirecorp_
 #34

Born into the family clan, I started work at 8 AM sharp on the 6th year of my birth.

I was already "trained" to work, but this time it's for real.

We had to work, otherwise they would come.

They were evil, infidel beast. They'd steal anything we had. They didn't care. They would rape the mothers, the daughters, and even sons like me!

--

My breakfast consist of a rice patty and half a glass of goat's milk. Not very much food for 12 hours of continuous work. At least my "duty" was easier than others. Their duty had was to stop them. They weren't born as lucky as me, to be entirely free to live my life.

--

Today was a great day! A day of rest, we won a battle against them and managed to double our supplies! We can rejoice that we won!

--

Our father died today, my brothers fought. I thought about taking a few supplies and leaving, but they are out there. Also, where would I go? What would I do? My brothers would be too busy fighting one another to notice me leaving.

--

I've done it, I've ended them. My eldest brother took charge of our clan and I was selected to fight them. I won though. My brothers and I mourned our losses, but we'll make up for them - we found more mothers here.

--

I'm the last of my generation. I've survived countless raids. I deserve to lead our family. And if anyone is willing to contest my claim of family, you are banished!
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October 26, 2018, 04:51:10 AM
 #35


If we live in a libertarian society , where you were able to run a free market paradise , without hurting anyone of course ...
What business would you run?...

My top pick would be to manage Nature's Sushi Parlor, using the exotic meat of (mostly) Red-Bellied Piranhas (sourced locally), to feed and entertain mostly Wolves, Foxes, Mountain Lions and American Rattlesnakes, as an enhancement service for experiencing natural balance and tranquility for fellow free walkers, optimizing the wandering-amongst-the-trees-in-the-beautiful-calming-green-forest lifestyle.
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October 27, 2018, 02:39:05 AM
Merited by Flying Hellfish (2)
 #36

That's easy. I would open up a protection service and a quality assay lab. They will thrive when people figure out how dicey it is to buy unregulated products, and how hard it is to protect themselves from organized crime in a society with no law enforcement.

I like small government. But not at the expense of safety and order. The fact of the matter is that there are too many malcontents and morally bankrupt folks that will snatch up your shit in a heartbeat given the chance. It's how survival works.

Libertarian government can only work in a culturally homogeneous society, and that's a rare thing these days. I wouldn't buy too much from folks I couldn't hold personally accountable, there is little recourse for buyers in a model like this. If I didn't grow it, or get a personal recommendation from a trusted person, I just wouldn't consume it.
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