Is this allowed? is it ethical? indian beggars or just scum bags?

[Woshib]

I have been informed that people send messages to teams of projects I manage in order to offer them to replace me for lower fees.

They told me that they are Hero members+

My question: Is it allowed? is it ethical?

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[siddartha1492]

You should probably reword your title. Saying Indian beggars on a global forum doesn't sound very good, does it?

[Woshib]

You should probably reword your title. Saying Indian beggars on a global forum doesn't sound very good, does it?

Given the fact I am free to say what I want, where is the problem?

[siddartha1492]

You should probably reword your title. Saying Indian beggars on a global forum doesn't sound very good, does it?

Given the fact I am free to say what I want, where is the problem?

Sure you are. I won't go into that I guess.
 
As for your initial question, I think it is both allowed and ethical. That's called business. Businesses always try to offer better deals to their competitor's clients in order to win them. That's pretty normal and there is nothing wrong in it.
Now, if you offer something more unique and valuable than these competitors, then you have nothing to be afraid of. Your clients won't choose some low quality managers just to save some money. But if your competitors are offering same quality of service as you do, then you should better prepare yourself to either lower your price or provide more quality to your service. I guess other people will also say the same to you.

[Woshib]

That's called business. Businesses always try to offer better deals to their competitor's clients in order to win them. That's pretty normal and there is nothing wrong in it.

But will quality be there? and they clearly see that I am the manager and that I posted the thread, but they still send their offer.

Now, if you offer something more unique and valuable than these competitors, then you have nothing to be afraid of. Your clients won't choose some low quality managers just to save some money. But if your competitors are offering same quality of service as you do, then you should better prepare yourself to either lower your price or provide more quality to your service. I guess other people will also say the same to you.

Sure, why do you think I got informed by the team?

[Quickseller]

This might be viewed as unsolicited advertising spam if done via PM, which is not allowed.

Trying to get business from your competition is normally part of doing business, and this alone is not unethical. Their actions might cross the line into being unethical depending on the specifics of the messages sent, and if they are misrepresenting anything.

But will quality be there?

maybe, maybe not. If their work is not good, then when new perspective customers evaluate them, they are unlikely to get hired. Also, if you get fired, your client hires this other person, and the other person does a poor job and gets fired, then if your (now) former clients approach you to resume work, then you will be in a position to either ask for more money, or ask that you receive payment as if you were working the entire time. 

[Welsh]

No matter what business you are in you'll always have people trying to compete and undercut you. You've just got to make sure you are providing the best service you can at a reasonable price, and that doesn't mean offering stellar services and underpricing it.

Even if you lose business temporary if you provide a good enough service the word will get out and you'll continue getting business. Whether this is spam or not probably depends on the person who receives the message. If they consider it spam they may report it and it may get dealt with if an admin agrees.

[hilariousetc]

You could argue it's unprincipled and shameless and I think most people would be annoyed by the behaviour if their personal business is effected by it but there's nothing illegal about the practice. People are free to try offer better deals and services though often times they'll likely be much worse. There have been users and scammers pestering ICOs as soon as they get announced offering to run campaigns for them for little to nothing and there have even been cases where account farmers have gained access to managing campaigns as well and this is something big farmers will be desperate to do so they can just siphon off money to their shitposting alts quite easily.

[Lauda]

People are free to try offer better deals and services though often times they'll likely be much worse.

Offering better deals in this area almost always means offering horrible services.. I don't think it is fine to do this, especially not when the user was already hired. If you allow this, then you essentially allow users to do this out of spite; slippery slope here and there, you reject someone's entry in a bounty because of them being a farmed account: They attempt to get you ("legitimately; by offering "better" services") fired.

Even if you lose business temporary if you provide a good enough service the word will get out and you'll continue getting business.

No. In traditional industries, sure. For bitcointalk ICOs, no. A lot of the ICOs don't really give a damn about the negative effect (spam, farming and whatnot) and would go for the cheapest option that just marks which addresses need to be paid.

[hilariousetc]

People are free to try offer better deals and services though often times they'll likely be much worse.

Offering better deals in this area almost always means offering horrible services.. I don't think it is fine to do this, especially not when the user was already hired. If you allow this, then you essentially allow users to do this out of spite; slippery slope here and there, you reject someone's entry in a bounty because of them being a farmed account: They attempt to get you ("legitimately; by offering "better" services") fired.

It's a shitty thing to do but not illegal. The only issue I would have is if you had a deal with a company and they got rid of you during the campaign just to save a bit of money. That would be a breach of contract.

I think there should be more scrutiny on new managers popping up to run campaigns because nefarious individuals are getting involved and successfully scamming money from people or siphoning off money to their alts, and then there's the shitmanagers who do absolutely nothing about spam and accept and pay for any old shit. If something had been done about these users we wouldn't have even needed the merit system in the first place.

[siddartha1492]

Sure, why do you think I got informed by the team? Cheesy

Well, frankly speaking, the team told you about your competitions not to warn you, but to basically ask that "Your competitors are providing the service for a lower price, would you like to reconsider the offer?"!!

[donmiguello]

 Most icos are looking managers with 100 alt accounts to create fake buzz. When a company visit this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2100130.0 and this one  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2046928.0  he willl hire the first guy even the fisrt guy is a scammer.

[Joel_Jantsen]

I have been informed that people send messages to teams of projects I manage in order to offer them to replace me for lower fees.

They told me that they are Hero members+

My question: Is it allowed? is it ethical?

*Indian Beggars* - How did you jump to that conclusion ? Did you took all the incidents into consideration and plotted a doughnut chart which clearly showed all of them were Indians ? I'm curious to understanding how your reasoning works.

It is definitely allowed to prove your 'campaign managers' that they're better than the current manager handling the campaign.If the team doubts your capabilities,they will definitely hire the 'beggars' .It's not anyone's fault if you turn out as a disappointment to the team.Obviously no one in the right mind will replace you if you're coming off with flying colours.

(I personally report stuff to campaign owners if I find the campaign manager isn't doing at good job at forum spam prevention/management)

[Lauda]

People are free to try offer better deals and services though often times they'll likely be much worse.

Offering better deals in this area almost always means offering horrible services.. I don't think it is fine to do this, especially not when the user was already hired. If you allow this, then you essentially allow users to do this out of spite; slippery slope here and there, you reject someone's entry in a bounty because of them being a farmed account: They attempt to get you ("legitimately; by offering "better" services") fired.

It's a shitty thing to do but not illegal. The only issue I would have is if you had a deal with a company and they got rid of you during the campaign just to save a bit of money. That would be a breach of contract.

I didn't tend to imply that it was illegal, but rather that it should be unethical and thus tag-worthy. Good hint on the contracts; I believe that bounty managers should create a binding standard.

I think there should be more scrutiny on new managers popping up to run campaigns because nefarious individuals are getting involved and successfully scamming money from people or siphoning off money to their alts, and then there's the shitmanagers who do absolutely nothing about spam and accept and pay for any old shit. If something had been done about these users we wouldn't have even needed the merit system in the first place.

I completely agree. Given the current situation, there is no need for any new bounty managers (yet). Thus, those coming with the 'because it is needed' or 'because I'm trustworthy and want to help' stories should be tagged.

It is definitely allowed to prove your 'campaign managers' that they're better than the current manager handling the campaign.If the team doubts your capabilities,they will definitely hire the 'beggars' .It's not anyone's fault if you turn out as a disappointment to the team.Obviously no one in the right mind will replace you if you're coming off with flying colours.

Read my previous post. This has nothing to do with the competency of the manager.

[Woshib]

Even if you lose business temporary if you provide a good enough service the word will get out and you'll continue getting business.

No. In traditional industries, sure. For bitcointalk ICOs, no. A lot of the ICOs don't really give a damn about the negative effect (spam, farming and whatnot) and would go for the cheapest option that just marks which addresses need to be paid.

I agree entirely with your point of view.

Most icos are looking managers with 100 alt accounts to create fake buzz. When a company visit this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2100130.0 and this one  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2046928.0  he willl hire the first guy even the fisrt guy is a scammer.

I agree, I have already received several proposals from different projects to "boost" their threads, which I always answer with a reminder of the forum rules.

How did you jump to that conclusion ? Did you took all the incidents into consideration and plotted a doughnut chart which clearly showed all of them were Indians ? I'm curious to understanding how your reasoning works.

This is not an affirmation but a supposition.

[Joel_Jantsen]

This is not an affirmation but a supposition.

So basically,you assumed that these hijackers could be "Indians" & "Beggars" without giving it a logical thought ? Seems like you find it "cool" to come up with fancy (racist) terms to suffice your assumptions ? In theory,it makes more sense to call this trait as confirmation bias,of course without any logic to it.

@Lauda,I agree.

[endlasuresh]

That's called business. Businesses always try to offer better deals to their competitor's clients in order to win them. That's pretty normal and there is nothing wrong in it.

But will quality be there? and they clearly see that I am the manager and that I posted the thread, but they still send their offer.

Where does this guys sending offers? Once the thread is posted by you will be it for you only. I am not getting why does these guys send their offers when the developer didnt requested.

Could you show the proof and their names so we all can hear from them too. Please invite those people here in this thread.

If they are sending offers, then the developers might interested to replace you.

[Quickseller]

People are free to try offer better deals and services though often times they'll likely be much worse.

Offering better deals in this area almost always means offering horrible services.. I don't think it is fine to do this, especially not when the user was already hired. If you allow this, then you essentially allow users to do this out of spite; slippery slope here and there, you reject someone's entry in a bounty because of them being a farmed account: They attempt to get you ("legitimately; by offering "better" services") fired.

It's a shitty thing to do but not illegal. The only issue I would have is if you had a deal with a company and they got rid of you during the campaign just to save a bit of money. That would be a breach of contract.

I didn't tend to imply that it was illegal, but rather that it should be unethical and thus tag-worthy.

You think it is okay to leave negative trust because someone is trying to compete for business with you? Or are you saying you would give negative trust because someone no longer wants to do business with you?

Either way, that sounds like the definition of abuse...

[erikalui]

Well such people can't be called beggars as they are offering their services for a JOB and not just asking money. Also, if they try to give fake/false reasons to take your job, they can be called unethical but if they find that you may not be doing a good job or not managing the campaign well, they are allowed to offer their services and the final decision lies with the management only. I've seen even team members/developers being changed due to such reasons and competition lies every where. It may be that their services may not be better than yours but if you feel that they are lying, you can go ahead and complain about them.

[Joel_Jantsen]

Well such people can't be called beggars as they are offering their services for a JOB and not just asking money. Also, if they try to give fake/false reasons to take your job, they can be called unethical but if they find that you may not be doing a good job or not managing the campaign well, they are allowed to offer their services and the final decision lies with the management only. I've seen even team members/developers being changed due to such reasons and competition lies every where. It may be that their services may not be better than yours but if you feel that they are lying, you can go ahead and complain about them.

No, what YOU do on most of the threads is what I actually consider begging.Like I have always pointed out when you were ready to do stupid shit for a few pennies.Remember ? Competition doesn't mean offering services for less than 80% of the value offered by the original service provider.This is cheap and a lot of Indians do it on the forum on a wider scale (including you).And I admit that such services offered are often always lesser in terms of quality standards.

In the end,you get what you pay for.