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Author Topic: relativistic effects on bitcoin  (Read 2268 times)
aaronwinborn
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September 30, 2013, 01:28:12 AM
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Has there been any discussion about the effects of relativity on the bitcoin network? Specifically, what will happen in a few years when we are on Mars? How will the network respond to a lag of fifteen minutes or more? What about interstellar distances, assuming that we haven't found a way to violate the laws of physics? Or are bitcoins to be relegated to a local (solar system) phenomenon?
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spiral_mind
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September 30, 2013, 03:18:20 AM
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Each planet could have its own crypto currency. They could be sold on interplanetary exchanges using quantum entanglement to communicate instantly.
riplin
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September 30, 2013, 04:40:29 PM
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Each planet could have its own crypto currency. They could be sold on interplanetary exchanges using quantum entanglement to communicate instantly.

Quantum entanglement does enable instant communication. There are currently no known practical or even theoretically plausible methods to communicate faster than light.
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September 30, 2013, 08:35:02 PM
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Each planet could have its own crypto currency. They could be sold on interplanetary exchanges using quantum entanglement to communicate instantly.

Quantum entanglement does enable instant communication. There are currently no known practical or even theoretically plausible methods to communicate faster than light.
Did you mean *doesn't?
EmperorBob
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October 01, 2013, 12:13:40 AM
 #5

I love just how many bitcoiners actually spend time thinking about full-scale economies on other planets. I guess we're all optimists.

There's a few ways the economy on Mars would work, given a BTC-based earth economy:

1. For a long time, a Mars colony (or any other distant colony) is essentially run by one organization, or a very small set of them. Just like today's astronauts, the colonists don't need a currency system while up there. Even if they run a local bitcoin node, because their link back to earth is completely controlled by the guys paying them, they can't know if they've been shunted to a different branch or not.

2. If a small Mars economy develops, they can free ride on bitcoin's chain for a long time. That way prices are already known, the infrastructure already exists, and you don't need to run power-hungry mining rigs in a resource-strapped context. The downsides are having to rely on zero-conf being reasonably hard to double spend against, and having to wait an extra 8-48 minutes when actually waiting for confirmations.

3. Once those constraints are too problematic there may be a need to start a mars altcoin, or figure out some clever way to have multiple chains within bitcoin, one for each sufficiently distant system. We have a lot of time to figure that out though.
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October 01, 2013, 12:17:52 AM
 #6

Each planet could have its own crypto currency. They could be sold on interplanetary exchanges using quantum entanglement to communicate instantly.

Quantum entanglement does enable instant communication. There are currently no known practical or even theoretically plausible methods to communicate faster than light.
Did you mean *doesn't?

Sorry, yes.
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October 01, 2013, 05:42:45 AM
 #7

Each planet could have its own crypto currency. They could be sold on interplanetary exchanges using quantum entanglement to communicate instantly.
Fail. You cannot communicate instantly  Roll Eyes
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October 01, 2013, 01:58:16 PM
 #8

Each planet could have its own crypto currency. They could be sold on interplanetary exchanges using quantum entanglement to communicate instantly.
Fail. You cannot communicate instantly  Roll Eyes
are you trying to tell us that communication doesn't propagate at the speed of nonsense? Smiley

if i can't spend my bitcoins when i'm moving at warp 2 relative to the earth, i think i'll just hold onto my USD.

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October 01, 2013, 10:17:00 PM
 #9

Unfortunately for the initiated, quantum entanglement is a form of instant communication, and it's actually mainstream science. But perhaps it is better described as simultaneous synchronisation of quantum properties; nevertheless, influencing one particle that is in a state of entanglement with another propagates the identical change in state to it's partner. And this could, of course, be used as a form of instantaneous communication. The experiments that proved this go back at least 5 years now, the phenomenon is not even that new.

No-one knows why it works, but it does. The experiments only prove that the state change propagates instantly, not the way in which they do so. I think it may be a while before any meaningful bandwidth of information can be sent, but in principle, instant communication exists in this very limited form.

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October 01, 2013, 11:31:37 PM
 #10

Unfortunately for the initiated, quantum entanglement is a form of instant communication, and it's actually mainstream science. But perhaps it is better described as simultaneous synchronisation of quantum properties; nevertheless, influencing one particle that is in a state of entanglement with another propagates the identical change in state to it's partner. And this could, of course, be used as a form of instantaneous communication. The experiments that proved this go back at least 5 years now, the phenomenon is not even that new.

No-one knows why it works, but it does. The experiments only prove that the state change propagates instantly, not the way in which they do so. I think it may be a while before any meaningful bandwidth of information can be sent, but in principle, instant communication exists in this very limited form.

I can't provide the math or all the specifics; all I can say is that I've read from those who work in the field, and according to them, while the entanglement allows instantaneous simultaneous changes in states, it still can't be used for FTL communication. There's a limiting factor that just flat keeps it from working that way.

Thank goodness it doesn't work, though. The universe might unravel if we were able to violate causality like that....

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October 02, 2013, 02:06:10 AM
 #11

Unfortunately for the initiated, quantum entanglement is a form of instant communication, and it's actually mainstream science. But perhaps it is better described as simultaneous synchronisation of quantum properties; nevertheless, influencing one particle that is in a state of entanglement with another propagates the identical change in state to it's partner. And this could, of course, be used as a form of instantaneous communication. The experiments that proved this go back at least 5 years now, the phenomenon is not even that new.

No-one knows why it works, but it does. The experiments only prove that the state change propagates instantly, not the way in which they do so. I think it may be a while before any meaningful bandwidth of information can be sent, but in principle, instant communication exists in this very limited form.

Quantum entanglement enabled ftl communication isn't new, but it is false.

This is the clearest explanation I've seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEaecUuEqfc

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FreeMoney
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October 02, 2013, 02:11:48 AM
 #12

Each planet could have its own crypto currency. They could be sold on interplanetary exchanges using quantum entanglement to communicate instantly.

Planets may need their own currencies, but if instant communications are possible then I don't see why they would, they'd be better connected than nodes are right now.

Actually the idea of a separate chain on other planets seems shaky to me. If miners on some planet are a lot faster or more efficient which seems likely then they can double spend or otherwise hassle the lesser for only a the one time fixed time cost of transporting the work. Maybe the lesser ought just accept a delay and/or use processors who settle on the greater planets chain. That should be workable, but I bet something smarter than that arrangement gets invented.

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dyseac
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October 02, 2013, 11:39:41 AM
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I think if we master Quantum Entanglement the security and probability of a SHA256 crypto-currency will be the least of our worries...
Carlton Banks
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October 02, 2013, 12:22:49 PM
 #14

Unfortunately for the initiated, quantum entanglement is a form of instant communication, and it's actually mainstream science. But perhaps it is better described as simultaneous synchronisation of quantum properties; nevertheless, influencing one particle that is in a state of entanglement with another propagates the identical change in state to it's partner. And this could, of course, be used as a form of instantaneous communication. The experiments that proved this go back at least 5 years now, the phenomenon is not even that new.

No-one knows why it works, but it does. The experiments only prove that the state change propagates instantly, not the way in which they do so. I think it may be a while before any meaningful bandwidth of information can be sent, but in principle, instant communication exists in this very limited form.

Can't you guys read?

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J35st3r
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October 02, 2013, 12:26:48 PM
 #15

Quantum entanglement enabled ftl communication isn't new, but it is false.

This is the clearest explanation I've seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEaecUuEqfc

Perhaps, but at a whole hour long we could do with a TL;DR summary.

Anyway my understanding (without watching the video yet) was that FTL communication would break way too much physics (allowing both time travel and causality violation). If it were invented the universe would probably instantly disappear in a puff of infinite improbability.

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October 02, 2013, 12:36:46 PM
 #16

Each planet could have its own crypto currency. They could be sold on interplanetary exchanges using quantum entanglement to communicate instantly.

jupiter, mars (?) and saturn are owned by knc/bitcoin  Wink
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October 02, 2013, 12:44:17 PM
 #17

Each planet could have its own crypto currency. They could be sold on interplanetary exchanges using quantum entanglement to communicate instantly.
Actually the idea of a separate chain on other planets seems shaky to me. If miners on some planet are a lot faster or more efficient which seems likely then they can double spend or otherwise hassle the lesser for only a the one time fixed time cost of transporting the work. Maybe the lesser ought just accept a delay and/or use processors who settle on the greater planets chain. That should be workable, but I bet something smarter than that arrangement gets invented.
Some form of merged mining will likely be used.

Also, before we see separate chains we'll likely see usage of higher-level instant payment protocols, with actual raw Bitcoin settlement being done rarely.

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October 02, 2013, 07:26:36 PM
 #18

Quantum entanglement enabled ftl communication isn't new, but it is false.

This is the clearest explanation I've seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEaecUuEqfc

Perhaps, but at a whole hour long we could do with a TL;DR summary.

Anyway my understanding (without watching the video yet) was that FTL communication would break way too much physics (allowing both time travel and causality violation). If it were invented the universe would probably instantly disappear in a puff of infinite improbability.

Cliffs: FTL communication is not implied by mainstream science's current understanding of quantum physics.

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MatTheCat
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October 02, 2013, 09:46:23 PM
 #19

Yes, there have been discussions about these things, specifically Mars.

Tee Hee Hee.

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