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Question: Should miners collude to steal funds from wallet confiscated by US government?
Yes - 109 (27.8%)
No - 268 (68.4%)
Other (specify below) - 15 (3.8%)
Total Voters: 392

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Author Topic: Should miners collude to steal funds from wallet confiscated by US government?  (Read 12709 times)
Rassah
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October 09, 2013, 10:00:02 PM
 #141

I have never heard any venture capitalist claim they won't have to interface with the fiat or regulatory system any more.

You must be new here, because a ton of them really wish that was the case. As soon as you try to start a business, or even just deal with bitcoin in any significant way, you run into a ton of regulatory questions and issues, to the point that some of these people are actually leaving USA or actively blocking US customers from their sites, just so they can avoid dealing with those issues. Yes, right now we are all forced to interface with fiat, and submit to KYC/AML and all the other crap, but I'm pretty sure everyone who supports bitcoin wishes that won't be the case eventually.

Do you think that bitcoin should always be used in conjunction with fiat, and that bitcoin should be subject to AML/KYC and other financial regulations too?

The only people that say that are the small group of lunatics you hang out with who will become irrelevant as Bitcoin expands.

Yep, you're new here. Those lunatics have supported bitcoin the most from the start, and are still it's biggest supporters (hint-hint, those lunatics include people pretty high up and well known in bitcoin businesses)

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Further, businesses generally do not want to be anonymous.

Businesses do want their finances and often inner workings to be anonymous, and customers want to be anonymous. Businesses also don't want to be forced to collect every little bit of information about their customers if they don't want to. And no one likes having to pay fees, taxes, or submit to costly and unneccesary regulatory requirements.

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You think you know everything because you discovered Bitcoin and you don't listen to anything people explain to you.

No, I think I know everything because I have high level degrees in finance, economics, and business, and have a ton of experience working in business finance, as well as a bit of experience running my own business, and also because I haave experience with virtual currencies and bitcoin. You think you know everything because, despite just recently discovering bitcoin, being as rightcheous as you are, believe you know better.

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You think a State employee going around advocating breaking into FBI computers to steal evidence in a murder-for-hire trial...

Ok, you claimed this three times now. Please explain to me how those bitcoins sitting in FBI computers are "evidence," or how they can be used to help prosecute DPR? If you can't, stop calling them "evidence."

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while boasting he works for the State doesn't affect your job?

My job is to count numbers and balance spreadsheets, not to talk politics or be a representative of whatever. Seriously, no one gives a crap what I think. Also, like I said, if I do lose it (and I do the very minimum required of me here), it won't bother me. I don't actually need the job here any more, and only keep it for the extra income and cheap health insurance.

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skull88
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October 09, 2013, 10:44:29 PM
 #142

Something in me screams "YEAH, take them!"

...but it wouldn't be a smart move. Wouldn't hurt the US government, but it would hurt Bitcoin.

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murraypaul
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October 10, 2013, 08:49:30 AM
 #143

I have an idea for a new type of crypto-asset:

The protocol of this new asset should envisage in cases when coins get stolen / extorted by people doing business as ''governments'':

a) a mechanism for tainting the stolen coins (if you are a moral human being you wouldn't deal with such tainted coins, you wouldn't buy them, their market price would be lower), or even
b) a mechanism for making the stolen coins unspendable (thus screwing the thieves - a crime should not pay!), or even
c) a mechanism for making the stolen coins retrievable by the victim of the theft / extortion (in case the human that was attacked gets freed in some point in future).

Hmm. Seems like if Bitcoin does become mainstream, this is more likely to become:

The protocol of this new asset should envisage in cases when coins are linked to illegal activities like drug dealing:

a) a mechanism for tainting the stolen coins (if you are a moral human being you wouldn't deal with such tainted coins, you wouldn't buy them, their market price would be lower), or even
b) a mechanism for making the stolen coins unspendable (thus screwing the drug dealers - a crime should not pay!), or even
c) a mechanism for making the stolen coins retrievable by law enforcement (to remove the proceeds of crime).

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murraypaul
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October 10, 2013, 08:53:26 AM
 #144

The only people that say that are the small group of lunatics you hang out with who will become irrelevant as Bitcoin expands.
Yep, you're new here. Those lunatics have supported bitcoin the most from the start, and are still it's biggest supporters (hint-hint, those lunatics include people pretty high up and well known in bitcoin businesses)

And if Bitcoin is to become maintream, they will be more and more marginalised, and pushed out of the picture by people with more 'normal' approaches.
Bitcoin can either:
a) be a super-secret crypto-anarchist tool for conducting illegal deals and sticking one to the man, or
b) be the future of money transfer around the world
It can't be both.

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darkmule
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October 10, 2013, 09:53:27 AM
 #145

Hmm. Seems like if Bitcoin does become mainstream, this is more likely to become:

The protocol of this new asset should envisage in cases when coins are linked to illegal activities like drug dealing:

Sort of like the way we burn huge piles of currency if we find out they've been involved in illegal activities?  Perhaps we should start doing that, too.  Just test every piece of currency for drug residue, and if it tests positive, we should burn it, because that dirty money can't be trusted.

(Hint:  Virtually every piece of currency in the U.S. is "tainted" with drug residue.)
murraypaul
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October 10, 2013, 10:01:57 AM
 #146

Yes.
I wan't suggesting this was a good idea, just what a logical extension would be Smiley
Money gets passed around, once it has passed from the 'tainted' source to someone else, it makes no sense to continue to consider it tainted.
It is just money. If money ceases to be fungible, it erodes its value as money.
How could you trust accepting money from anyone, if later it could be declared tainted and unspendable just because of something they had done with it before it came into your possession?

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Loozik
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October 10, 2013, 12:49:29 PM
 #147

The protocol of this new asset should envisage in cases when coins are linked to illegal activities like drug dealing:

Not every activity labeled ''illegal'' is morally bad. There were times when owning gold in North America was illegal. While you certainly could call owning gold illegal, you wouldn't call it morally wrong, would you?

Another example: it is morally wrong for you to kill in cases other then self-defense, but it is legal for you to kill if you a dressed in green costume with a sign ''US military'' or a blue costume with a sign ''police''.

Yet another example: it is morally wrong for you to steal someone's bitcoins, but it is legal for you to steal them if you wear a cap with FBI letters on it.

I hope you are getting differences between morality and legality.
deeplink
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October 10, 2013, 12:50:51 PM
 #148

Bitcoin is only 4 years old.  People who go around claiming that they been involved in Bitcoin for some long period of time (or that they have some kind of elevated status that cannot be taken away) are delusional.  You are correct that some of the early Bitcoin businesses were started by radical kooks like you.  What I am explaining to you is that those people are being pushed out because they are usually not capable of running legitimate businesses.  Companies like Bitpay, Coinbase, Kracken, etc. are not a bunch of radicals acting like teenagers making a bunch of wild and stupid claims.

Thanks for explaining this to us Mr Dinosaur and welcome to the forum for delusional lunatics. I hope you can educate us more on how the world works.
Birdy
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October 10, 2013, 01:04:16 PM
 #149

The protocol of this new asset should envisage in cases when coins are linked to illegal activities like drug dealing:

Not every activity labeled ''illegal'' is morally bad. There were times when owning gold in North America was illegal. While you certainly could call owning gold illegal, you wouldn't call it morally wrong, would you?

Another example: it is morally wrong for you to kill in cases other then self-defense, but it is legal for you to kill if you a dressed in green costume with a sign ''US military'' or a blue costume with a sign ''police''.

Yet another example: it is morally wrong for you to steal someone's bitcoins, but it is legal for you to steal them if you wear a cap with FBI letters on it.

I hope you are getting differences between morality and legality.

Both can change over time.
What is morally right or wrong can differ from person to person, while what's legal cannot so much.
e.g. two people in the same state can have different opinions on if gay marriage is morally wrong, but they cannot on if it's legal (or they are just wrong xD).

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While you certainly could call owning gold illegal, you wouldn't call it morally wrong, would you?
I certainly could call it morally wrong.
It would just go against the current common sense and most other people would disagree with me.

What's important to notice is that "morally right" isn't the same for everyone. If you say "xy isn't morally right" it's expressing your opinion, not stating a fact.
murraypaul
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October 10, 2013, 01:10:36 PM
 #150

I hope you are getting differences between morality and legality.

I think you are missing the point.
I'm not saying what I think should be done.
What I'm saying is that if group A decides to taint a certain set of coins because of they believe is morally wrong, why shouldn't groups B, C and D do the same? And they will each have different things that they consider morally wrong.
Now coins will be seemingly randomly accepted or rejected based on some group's view of what the Nth previous holder had done with those coins.
It would render the entire system unusable. Money works because people trust that it will be accepted. If that trust is lost, money loses value.

And, btw, I'm pretty sure there are many many more people in the world would would consider dealing drugs to be morally wrong, as opposed to considering confiscating money found when arresting a drug dealer morally wrong.




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Rassah
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October 10, 2013, 02:23:14 PM
 #151

I have got news for you, you are a 25 year old who has little or no experience in anything at all.  

Huh.. why do you think I'm 25, and have no experience? My profile used to say 18 about 6 months ago, and has never had my real age.

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Fist of all, you are an employee of the State of MD advocating series crimes.  That in itself is enough to fire you and it does not matter that nobody cares about your opinion.

Yeah, that's not how things work. Sorry. I could be advocating legalizing drugs and prostitution, or advocating money laundering and tax evasion, but unless I'm actually involved in any way myself,  that's still just an opinion. The only thing they care about in my particular position is my job performance. I am not a representative or a face of the government in any way. That would be people two levels above me.

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Obviously, those funds are evidence.  It is amazing that you are trying to argue otherwise.  It is spelled out on page 12 of the indictment from Maryland https://ia601904.us.archive.org/1/items/gov.uscourts.mdd.238311/gov.uscourts.mdd.238311.4.0.pdf

Hmm... nope. Nothing on there about evidence. All that page says is, "You done bad, so we'll take your stuff." It's at most a punishment or claim of the right to everything that was obtained as a result of the crime, and there's absolutely nothing there regarding forfeited items being evidence.
So, it's not evidence. It's stuff the government, and specifically the US government, now claims to own the right to, because they claim that the way the money was obtained was wrong. This despite the fact that the money did not belong to DRP himself, was in a global business with global customers, and belonging to people who either were not breaking the law, or were in countries where what they were buying was legal. US has an annoying knack for pretending that it's government laws apply to the entire world. How would you feel if you tried to buy some electronics from a business in China, and China seized your money, because, despite those electronics being legal in US, China declared them illegal for whatever reason, and decided the rest of the world, including you, should consider them to be illegal, too?
And even if that money were to disapear somehow, it still won't affect the trial, or any evidence, and will only make the FBI a bit poorer (and more pissed off).

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Bitcoin is only 4 years old.  People who go around claiming that they been involved in Bitcoin for some long period of time (or that they have some kind of elevated status that cannot be taken away) are delusional.

What about people who claim to know the people who have been involved with bitcoin for a long time, and claim to know what kind of people they are, and what kind of interests or goals they have? And what if those people are actually fairly well known and established people in the community, who have, and are still, supporting bitcoin in a big way?

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You are correct that some of the early Bitcoin businesses were started by radical kooks like you.  What I am explaining to you is that those people are being pushed out because they are usually not capable of running legitimate businesses.  Companies like Bitpay, Coinbase, Kracken, etc. are not a bunch of radicals acting like teenagers making a bunch of wild and stupid claims.

First, the people you claim are being "pushed out" are actually running some of the companies you listed (who may not be publicly making such claims, but have in private). Second, you forgot to mention SatoshiDice, Coinapult, and quite a few other businesses that actually helped launch bitcoin and get it to where it is now. Sure, they may seem like government-loving nice people, but trust me, they're not. Their non-radical public image is only maintained for the likes of you.


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As for experience. I have a masters in Physics and a bachelor in physics and Com Sci.  I also have a CISSP.  I am retired from a job at the FAA that I started before you were born.  I did research on explosives and weapons detection systems and later I worked on information security requirements for future aviation systems.   I also had Internet businesses on the side and I have testified at various workshops and hearing in Washington, DC (FTC, DOC, etc) where I testified about privacy.  I used to use a little known quirk in US federal law that allows individuals to sue companies in small claims court for violations of the privacy requirements related to telemarketing.  I sued about 40-50 of some of the largest corporations in the US (including numerous banks) and I put the info on the Internet and people all over the country started doing it.  I used the money from that to develop a large domain name portfolio so now I don't have to work at all.  

So... you have experience in physics and computers, you worked in air traffic control in some capacity, sued a bunch of spammers, and are making your wealth domain squatting? So... nothing regarding finance, economics, or business (well, a bit)? Mine is, I had a rather extensive education, if a bit of a crash course (over a few summers, 11am to 8pm daily) in physics and electro-mechanical engeneering, which I needed to help run my grandparent's MAGLEV company. I knew the subject well enough to be an English<>Russian translator at the 2000 International Maglev Conference in Lausanne, and to debate the topics with top researchers and professors there, to the point where people there simply assumed I had a doctorate in the stuff. I don't have any Comp Sci degrees, but I have been writing software since I was 13, was hired by McDonald's Corp in Baltimore as an IT manager and web/software developer, and as a business on the side, ran and managed a web and e-mail server for various web companies, including my family's MAGLEV thing, since 1997. I'm still running that MAGLEV business, which includes doing economic feasibility research all over the world, and establishing and maintaining contacts with various globally dispersed manufacturers, though I'm not really focusing on it as much as I should (I am building a proof-of-concept linear accelerator in my living room though). Oh, and I also have a bachelors in business finance, and a master's in global business and finance. And thanks to my stock, mutual fund, and bitcoin portfolio, and the small consulting and finance jobs I keep getting hired for, and all the trust I have built up over the years (I'm holding over $100,000 of other people's money in trust), I don't have to work at all, either. As I said, the only reason I'm still working where I am is for the cheap health insurance, and to give me some spending money so I can put off dipping into my investments. Actually, the only reason I worked here last year was as a favor to the department, because I was literally the only person left here who knew how to run things, and stayed on, despite earning half of what I could earn in the private sector, until I trained my replacement. Since then, they accused the guy I was training of being inadequate, without even consulting me, because some new person didn't like him or something (he was VERY good, actually), dumped a bunch of shit on me from someone else who was retiring and thus was not doing her job at all in her last month (never gave me the accounting info I needed, and shit rolled right up hill), and have cost me about $60k in lost investments. Frankly, there are two more finance people here who are hoping to quit, who are the only other people who know how to run the department, and I am just here waiting for them to leave, so I can leave at the same time, and have this entire department collapse.

deeplink
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October 10, 2013, 03:30:39 PM
 #152

You are one of the dumb kids who thinks he knows it all that I was referring to.

Yes, that about nails it right there. How do you know all this about me?


And, yes, this forum is full of lunatics and most normal people would never participate in this forum.  The one guy Professor Mac says he wants to recommend Bitcoin to his students and friends but he is often embarrassed to do so because they will end up on this forum which is full of delusional lunatics.

I read the conventional media, if I am interested in what most normal people think. But historically lunatics may see the world in a clearer light than the mainstream. There is a fine line between genius and lunacy.

p.s. Here is an easy solution if you don't like the content of this forum or want to step out of your comfort zone: don't visit it or go and start your own forum.
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October 10, 2013, 09:26:19 PM
 #153

No is the answer because of bad precident and bad principle of what this currency is supposed to achieve...

But on the flip side, help the fbi confiscate the 600,000 BTC using these tactics by forcing those coins into their wallet so that proper legal proceedings could take place would be a much more noble cause

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October 10, 2013, 09:27:06 PM
 #154

Discussion about morality and ethics was split and moved here.
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October 11, 2013, 12:04:28 AM
 #155

Discussion about morality and ethics was split and moved here.

So, what exactly are we supposed to do in this thread, then?

It says should miners collude, not could miners collude. The answer to the second question is obviously yes. If you randomly 'split' the thread, then what's this one for?

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October 11, 2013, 12:42:27 AM
 #156

I would vote for a "No." If all miners agree to take the money without the standard, normal procedure, I think it will make Bitcoin reputation goes worse.

But I don't mind if a single entity or a single person steals the private key of that address though Tongue
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October 11, 2013, 03:01:21 AM
 #157

Discussion about morality and ethics was split and moved here.

So, what exactly are we supposed to do in this thread, then?

It says should miners collude, not could miners collude. The answer to the second question is obviously yes. If you randomly 'split' the thread, then what's this one for?

This sub-forum is designated for:

Quote
General discussion about the Bitcoin ecosystem that doesn't fit better elsewhere. News, the Bitcoin community, innovations, the general environment, etc

If you wish to discuss ethics and morals, you can take that discussion to the Politics & Society sub-forum.

I suppose perhaps the entire thread could be moved to that forum, but there seems to be enough technical discussion in the thread to leave those parts here.

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October 11, 2013, 04:26:52 AM
 #158

Well, it does chap my ass that the US government seized bitcoins from people around the world, many of whom were not engaging in illegal activity on their location. And even if they were, how is that America's problem?

BUT, a huge no to this questions. That would destroy everything bitcoin stands for. You can't have people simply undoing transactions because at that moment they don't agree with something. Think back in history about all the stupid shit mob mentality has resulted in.... so, that precedent should never be set. Maybe tomorrow "we'd" be robbing some rich dude's bitcoins because we're jealous little whiny bitches like most of society. No good.

All that said, if someone liberated those bitcoins I'd laugh, and I think a good 'ol fashioned smash and grab is a better idea. Find there they keep the private keys, and go get them, Oceans 11 style. Easier than doing a 51% attack and reversing god knows how many levels of transactions needed to get anywhere with that. Plus, a smash and grab would be both hilarious AND would not hurt the bitcoin infrastructure.

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October 11, 2013, 04:30:27 AM
 #159

... Speaking of a Smash and Grab... how in the hell have they kept that from happening? The corruption in government is high, if someone on the inside jacked the private keys, and if they knew what they were doing it would be hard to trace. Way better than the typical embezzlement and such BS.

Edit: They probably saved them on a shared network drive. "SiezedCoins.dat.rar" Perhaps some Chinese 13 year old will obtain them?

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October 11, 2013, 04:32:52 AM
 #160

Well, it does chap my ass that the US government seized bitcoins from people around the world, many of whom were not engaging in illegal activity on their location.

Well if people insist on leaving their coins on an extremely illegal drug marketplace what else do they expect?

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