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Author Topic: Self generated wallet seed  (Read 92 times)
LtMotioN
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March 05, 2018, 08:29:18 AM
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Hi Forum
I suspect I might need to start using bitcoin as a store of wealth to keep my money off the grid and truly secured from corrupt governments due to current situations in my country. Thus I would like to store my BTC in my memory. Hardware wallets can be confiscated, and I can be forced to release funds.

I am aware this is possible but have never done this. Which wallet can I use to do this and generate my own seed, also is it possible for me to mix it up over multiple languages? Most seeds are generated out of 5000 words as far as I know. Thus 20 words if its all English becomes the "safe" level against a brute force, if I do it over 3 or 4 languages does that change?

A 12 word phrase or so I am sure I can always remember, 20 might be a bit much.
Also is this possible to do with Monero ?

Thanks for helping lead the way guys.

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March 05, 2018, 08:46:11 AM
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You could get a Trezor, add a passphrase (works like the 25th in the seed and It can be anything so no need to be afraid of Brute force attacks), even If someone have access to your 24 words, nothing much can be done to retrieve your funds as the last one will be memorized in your head or you can use Electrum extended seed feature (cheaper but safe as long as your PC contain no malware).

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March 05, 2018, 08:49:53 AM
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You could get a Trezor, add a passphrase (works like the 25th in the seed and It can be anything so no need to be afraid of Brute force attacks), even If someone have access to your 24 words, nothing much can be done to retrieve your funds as the last one will be memorized in your head or you can use Electrum extended seed feature (cheaper but safe as long as your PC contain no malware).

agreed, the brain is a terrible source of entropy (that's a quote i picked up a long time ago, but i don't remember from who).
An other option would be to generate a seed using a hardware wallet or electrum, then use an algo like Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme, for example with 5 shares and a subset of 3 shares needed to restore the secret. Hide each share with a different friend/family member and use one strong root password. This way, 3 of your closes friends/family members would have to collaborate AND know your password in order to restore the 24 word seed...

LtMotioN
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March 05, 2018, 08:51:38 AM
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Unfortunately if everything I own gets forcibly taken then so a trezor wont do. If I use  the electrum on a freshly installed OS to create the seed,  does the fact that I can use multiple languages help? or so I still need to stick to 20+ words? How does this change the math behind a brute force?


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March 05, 2018, 10:59:53 AM
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Unfortunately if everything I own gets forcibly taken then so a trezor wont do. If I use  the electrum on a freshly installed OS to create the seed,  does the fact that I can use multiple languages help? or so I still need to stick to 20+ words? How does this change the math behind a brute force?
Electrum relies on "just" 12 words, although you can Extend your seed with custom words (click "Options" when writing down your seed).
The more words you add, the more difficult it becomes to brute-force.

Keep in mind (pun intended) it's likely to forget seeds after a long time. I can remember passwords for many years, but I use them often. I don't remember all passwords I ever used. Don't underestimate how difficult it can be to remember seeds when you're 20 years older!

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March 05, 2018, 12:29:08 PM
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Unfortunately if everything I own gets forcibly taken then so a trezor wont do. If I use  the electrum on a freshly installed OS to create the seed,  does the fact that I can use multiple languages help? or so I still need to stick to 20+ words? How does this change the math behind a brute force?
Electrum relies on "just" 12 words, although you can Extend your seed with custom words (click "Options" when writing down your seed).
The more words you add, the more difficult it becomes to brute-force.

Keep in mind (pun intended) it's likely to forget seeds after a long time. I can remember passwords for many years, but I use them often. I don't remember all passwords I ever used. Don't underestimate how difficult it can be to remember seeds when you're 20 years older!
Yea thats why I want to do it in a flexible way, random words I will definitely forget. But if I can make it a bilingual sentence then I am sure I can remember it.

Thanks I will go try electron.

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March 05, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
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Yea thats why I want to do it in a flexible way, random words I will definitely forget. But if I can make it a bilingual sentence then I am sure I can remember it.
This is the part where humans are very bad at generating random seeds. If you make something up that you can easily remember, chances are a smart dictionary attack can find it.

Quote
Thanks I will go try electron.
WARNING! You mean Electrum!
There are several phishing sites that give you fake versions of this wallet, and steal your funds. You may be confused by Electron Cash, which is a Bitcoin Cash (altcoin) wallet (and although I have used it, I don't trust it).
Be very careful to download the real Electrum from the official source!

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March 05, 2018, 06:39:41 PM
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You could get a Trezor, add a passphrase (works like the 25th in the seed and It can be anything so no need to be afraid of Brute force attacks), even If someone have access to your 24 words, nothing much can be done to retrieve your funds as the last one will be memorized in your head or you can use Electrum extended seed feature (cheaper but safe as long as your PC contain no malware).

agreed, the brain is a terrible source of entropy (that's a quote i picked up a long time ago, but i don't remember from who).
An other option would be to generate a seed using a hardware wallet or electrum, then use an algo like Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme, for example with 5 shares and a subset of 3 shares needed to restore the secret. Hide each share with a different friend/family member and use one strong root password. This way, 3 of your closes friends/family members would have to collaborate AND know your password in order to restore the 24 word seed...

that almost close idea that i got but only with 2 people one my wife and my close friend, so that they can join and unlock my password in order to restore on my demise

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March 06, 2018, 03:07:19 PM
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 #9

Most seeds are generated out of 5000 words as far as I know.

BIP39 (and electrum) seeds are specified with 2048 words.



Thus 20 words if its all English becomes the "safe" level against a brute force, if I do it over 3 or 4 languages does that change?

Of course, the greater your possible space of words is the harder it gets to crack/guess the seed.



A 12 word phrase or so I am sure I can always remember, 20 might be a bit much.

A 24 word seed phrase has about the same security as the private key of bitcoins itself.
Means that with any seed longer than 24 words its 'more profitable' to 'attack' the private key instead. Please note that we are talking about more than 1077 possibilities.
A 12 word seed gives you about 5 * 1039 different seeds. Thats clearly smaller but still high enough to be considered non-crackable (currently).



Also is this possible to do with Monero ?

Theoretically this works with every currency. It just has to be implemented.

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