A picture of AnCapistan

[myrkul]

Second, Let me head off an argument before we even gets started: Somalia. Somalia is neither Libertopia, nor AnCapistan. Somalia is a land of tribal warlords, each trying to be the government. In AnCapistan, the enforcement agencies themselves would be bound by the NAP (the above law), and so, wouldn't attempt to become a government. Should one try, the others would be contractually obligated to stop them

And what happens when the others don't try because it'll cost them too much money? Ain't nobody there to force their hand, so why bother?

Ever heard the phrase 'Breach of contract'? MUCH more expensive than fulfilling the obligations.

Yes, because it's SO much more profitable to steal from people and get shot on the third try than to deal with people fairly and have millions of customers.

If I have a mercenary army, I don't have to worry about getting shot on the third try or any try. I hire people to take those bullets for me - it's just good business!

(Also apparently even a dude running around with a gun shooting people is a rational actor who always considers the ramifications of everything he does and would never do anything illogical.)

Mercenaries aren't stupid. As a merc, which job would you pick? The one that lets you work out all day, or the one where you get to fight the guy who got to work out all day?

[rainingbitcoins]

Ever heard the phrase 'Breach of contract'? MUCH more expensive than fulfilling the obligations.

Ever heard the phrase "Haha try and stop me!" ?   Look at all of the treaties American settlers made with Indians. Look how many of those we kept. If there's nobody there to stop you, all the contracts in the world are meaningless.

Mercenaries aren't stupid. As a merc, which job would you pick? The one that lets you work out all day, or the one where you get to fight the guy who got to work out all day?

You're gonna have to clarify what you mean by this because I have no idea what you're getting at here.

[MountainMan]

As a merc, which job would you pick?

The one where you get paid more. When you let some other guy do all the work and then steal the fruits of his labor, you can afford to pay your mercs better. Piracy is profitable without some sort of overwhelmingly present and powerful force to dissuade it. Somalians wouldn't do it if it didn't work sometimes, and they've got everyone on their ass - if the US, now, can't functionally stop their piracy, what stops people from piracy in AnCapistan, when there's no monolithic centralized army? I'm assuming anonymity is going to be trivial in this scenario - blackface and skimasks, burned off fingerprints, blank eye contacts, padding, second skin (latex paint to prevent skin flakes) and complete waxing ( no loose hairs.) Could even do funky things like mixed blood transfusions to prevent single-sourcing DNA origins.

The risk/reward factor has to be accounted for, too. The cost of bullets will always be cheaper than the cost of honest labor.

[myrkul]

As a merc, which job would you pick?

The risk/reward factor has to be accounted for, too. The cost of bullets will always be cheaper than the cost of honest labor.

This is true, and the cost for a sniper post will always be less than that of an assault force.

[ascent]

This is true, and the cost for a sniper post will always be less than that of an assault force.

Oh gosh! That is so cool! I want to live in your world, where everyone has to pull money out of their pockets to hire armies with guns to defend the contracts we've signed and when I walk out onto the street (which is owned by various different parties each with their own stipulations), I have to be concerned about various snipers and armies all taking care of business for others.

Like I said, I'd just rather pay taxes and get some generally consistent and mostly guaranteed infrastructure without little corporate and private wars being waged all around me, and know that most all streets are public and subject to a consistent set of laws, even if it is inefficient, because it's run by a government.

[myrkul]

Like I said, I'd just rather pay taxes and get some generally consistent and mostly guaranteed infrastructure without little corporate and private wars being waged all around me, and know that most all streets are public and subject to a consistent set of laws, even if it is inefficient, because it's run by a government.

Gotta love it. You idiots pose a "but wait, what's to stop..." And then we tell you that it wouldn't be cost effective, and here's why:... and then you use THAT to say you'd rather not live there!

Hey, What's to stop a rival gang government from invading your turf and taking over your capitol, making you it's bitch?

"The Army, of course. It's a shell defense, and most of our troops are overseas, killing brown people, and they force us to pay for it, but it stops them, yup yup, it sure does."

Whoa, they force you to pay for it? And aren't obliged to protect you? Fuck that! I'd rather pay my security company, thanks.

Works both ways.

[ascent]

"The Army, of course. It's a shell defense, and most of our troops are overseas, killing brown people, and they force us to pay for it, but it stops them, yup yup, it sure does."

I already explained to you (in another thread), that the fighting overseas is mostly about our government's failure to address economical issues, and I provided you with reading material on that subject in various other threads. Your "fantasy-world" will be run rampant with abuse of the environment, just as it is today by corporations. I asked you to learn about ecological economics and steady state growth, which you have ignored.

I do not maintain that we live in an ideal world. Far from it. However, I do believe that your world is worse, and won't last anyway, because it's human nature that humans will gravitate towards those who seem to be accumulating power - thus your NAP laws will evolve into various versions of SSOLWADNNAP.

Hence, governments will form in different regions.

[Rassah]

Piracy is profitable without some sort of overwhelmingly present and powerful force to dissuade it. Somalians wouldn't do it if it didn't work sometimes, and they've got everyone on their ass - if the US, now, can't functionally stop their piracy, what stops people from piracy in AnCapistan, when there's no monolithic centralized army?

Um, being allowed to carry guns/weapons, for one. The main reason piracy is such a problem around Somalia is because cargo ships aren't allowed to carry ANY weapons on board if they wish to be able to dock at international ports (government law/regulation). It's why all they can resort to to fight armed pirates is water cannons, noise makers, and just locking themselves inside strongholds on the ship. It's also why Somali pirate ships stay WAY the f*ck away from any military ships.

[Rassah]

Your "fantasy-world" will be run rampant with abuse of the environment, just as it is today by corporations.

Currently, pretty much all land where those corporations mine for coal or drill for oil, is owned by the government, and is leased to these corporations on a temporary basis so they can extract their stuff (my guess the leasing has partly to do with people thinking governments will protect the pretty public land better if they owned it, and that some powerful corporations can use the lease thing to get land cheaper with help from buddy Senators)

There's a theory that, if those corporations were instead required to actually BUY the land (and on top of it, be taxed property taxes for owning it), they would have a huge incentive to make sure they either don't ruin it, or fix it up to be as good as it was when they bought it, so they can still resell it after they're done digging everything up. Otherwise they'll just go on owning a trashed chunk of land that costs them taxes.

[myrkul]

Hence, governments will form in different regions.

ANY voluntary arrangement is fine by me. Even if it superficially resembles a government. As long as they're not putting guns to people's heads and saying "pay up, or something bad might happen to you", and calling it anything but extortion, they are free to set up whatever organization they like.

Worst case scenario, We're back to where we started, Here.

[ascent]

ANY voluntary arrangement is fine by me. Even if it superficially resembles a government. As long as they're not putting guns to people's heads and saying "pay up, or something bad might happen to you", and calling it anything but extortion, they are free to set up whatever organization they like.

Worst case scenario, We're back to where we started, Here.

I think for people to take you seriously, you need to stop with the "People putting guns to my head and forcing me to pay taxes" line. Yes, I concede that you can go to jail if you don't pay taxes. But let's address this side issue:

• Yeah, you can go to jail if you don't pay taxes.
• I don't know where you live, but if it is in the USA, then you only have to pay taxes if you make above some certain amount, therefore, you can decide to not pay taxes by not making a lot of money.
• You don't need to pay property taxes if you don't own property. You can rent. Sure, you're indirectly helping the landlord pay taxes, but in your world, your rent payment would be helping the landlord pay a lot of service contract fees.
• You don't need to pay sales taxes if you move to Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, or Oregon.
• You do consume the services provided by the government, whether you think you do or not.
• Your consumption of those services and payment of taxes result in a major offload of burden placed upon you which would be the constant evaluation, purchasing and maintenance of contracts with various companies. Frankly, it would suck more than you probably realize.
• Yes, I grant that the government engages in inefficiencies.

So, stop it with the line about a gun being placed to your head and taking money from you. I understand you don't like the tax model. I get that. But you're going to have to show me that you have experienced extreme stress and trauma in your life from life threatening actions by individuals taking money from you if you wish to continue with that line in debates with me. Do it again, and I'll just leave. If that's what you want, then fine.

[LastBattle]

ANY voluntary arrangement is fine by me. Even if it superficially resembles a government. As long as they're not putting guns to people's heads and saying "pay up, or something bad might happen to you", and calling it anything but extortion, they are free to set up whatever organization they like.

Worst case scenario, We're back to where we started, Here.

I think for people to take you seriously, you need to stop with the "People putting guns to my head and forcing me to pay taxes" line. Yes, I concede that you can go to jail if you don't pay taxes. But let's address this side issue:

• Yeah, you can go to jail if you don't pay taxes.
• I don't know where you live, but if it is in the USA, then you only have to pay taxes if you make above some certain amount, therefore, you can decide to not pay taxes by not making a lot of money.
• You don't need to pay property taxes if you don't own property. You can rent. Sure, you're indirectly helping the landlord pay taxes, but in your world, your rent payment would be helping the landlord pay a lot of service contract fees.
• You don't need to pay sales taxes if you move to Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, or Oregon.
• You do consume the services provided by the government, whether you think you do or not.
• Your consumption of those services and payment of taxes result in a major offload of burden placed upon you which would be the constant evaluation, purchasing and maintenance of contracts with various companies. Frankly, it would suck more than you probably realize.
• Yes, I grant that the government engages in inefficiencies.

So, stop it with the line about a gun being placed to your head and taking money from you. I understand you don't like the tax model. I get that. But you're going to have to show me that you have experienced extreme stress and trauma in your life from life threatening actions by individuals taking money from you if you wish to continue with that line in debates with me. Do it again, and I'll just leave. If that's what you want, then fine.

If you pay the Mafia enforcers on regular occasions without a fuss, they probably aren't so trauma inducing, either. I suppose that makes the Mafia a legitimate institution?

The one where you get paid more. When you let some other guy do all the work and then steal the fruits of his labor, you can afford to pay your mercs better. Piracy is profitable without some sort of overwhelmingly present and powerful force to dissuade it. Somalians wouldn't do it if it didn't work sometimes, and they've got everyone on their ass - if the US, now, can't functionally stop their piracy, what stops people from piracy in AnCapistan, when there's no monolithic centralized army? I'm assuming anonymity is going to be trivial in this scenario - blackface and skimasks, burned off fingerprints, blank eye contacts, padding, second skin (latex paint to prevent skin flakes) and complete waxing ( no loose hairs.) Could even do funky things like mixed blood transfusions to prevent single-sourcing DNA origins.

The risk/reward factor has to be accounted for, too. The cost of bullets will always be cheaper than the cost of honest labor.

Which would you rather be, a Somali pirate or a rich Western doctor?

Yeah, pirates can gain from looting, pillaging, etc but they don't gain as much as if they worked honestly. Furthermore, with competition among defense companies, there would be far more incentive to hunt pirates. I mean, the US government just doesn't give a shit about pirates unless they happen to board something the US government finds valuable. They worry more about shooting guys in Afghanistan who are likely to never do anything to the US if they are left alone, and thus don't devote any resources to protecting mariners on the sea. Furthermore, various regulations prevent the sailors from carrying guns, which would at the very least make piracy much harder. If there were multiple security companies, they would allocate their resources much more efficiently. There would doubtless be bounties on pirates, and the companies would go after targets who were actually a problem rather than phantoms conjured up by crooks in office looking for a way to carve up a little empire among third world nations.

[ascent]

If you pay the Mafia enforcers on regular occasions without a fuss, they probably aren't so trauma inducing, either. I suppose that makes the Mafia a legitimate institution?

Your analogy is so weak, it is pathetic. Here's why: I have voluntarily (as have most all people) opted to not be involved with any Mafia operations for many reasons, one of which is how random and scary life would be, part of which is related to the fact that you are dealing with multiple factions with arbitrary ways of dealing with disobedient subjects (kind of like the world you're proposing).

Note my above use of the words "random and scary". I do not feel that my life is random or scary with regard to the government. Nor do most people. You can continue to try and play the Mafia card if you want, but it won't work.

[myrkul]

So, stop it with the line about a gun being placed to your head and taking money from you. I understand you don't like the tax model. I get that. But you're going to have to show me that you have experienced extreme stress and trauma in your life from life threatening actions by individuals taking money from you if you wish to continue with that line in debates with me. Do it again, and I'll just leave. If that's what you want, then fine.

As Lastbattle said, Paying the enforcers in a timely fashion does indeed remove the 'Pain and suffering' aspect of it. And yes, self-imposed poverty does avoid the enforcers entirely. But just because the mugger is polite, and doesn't need to jab the knife at your throat to get you to pay, doesn't mean you weren't mugged.

The involuntary nature of the taxation system is the core of the problem. I would have absolutely no problem with the government, if it a) allowed competition, and b) was paid voluntarily, like any other service company.

Note my above use of the words "random and scary". I do not feel that my life is random or scary with regard to the government. Nor do most people. You can continue to try and play the Mafia card if you want, but it won't work.

No? You never feel that jolt of adrenaline when you see a cop car? You don't check everything, make sure you're following all the rules?

Now imagine if you were black.

[ascent]

The involuntary nature of the taxation system is the core of the problem. I would have absolutely no problem with the government, if it a) allowed competition, and b) was paid voluntarily, like any other service company.

How many of the government's services do you consume?

[Rassah]

No? You never feel that jolt of adrenaline when you see a cop car? You don't check everything, make sure you're following all the rules?

Now imagine if you were black.

Or were trying to set up a multinational business, and came across all the regulation requirements 

[myrkul]

The involuntary nature of the taxation system is the core of the problem. I would have absolutely no problem with the government, if it a) allowed competition, and b) was paid voluntarily, like any other service company.

How many of the government's services do you consume?

Only those which I have no choice in the matter, those forced upon me. ie, Can't help but drive on Gov't roads, etc.

[ascent]

Only those which I have no choice in the matter, those forced upon me. ie, Can't help but drive on Gov't roads, etc.

You are not being forced to drive on government roads. Create a contract with your neighbors and property owners between you and all places you visit, such that you can pass through their properties. Then you would only need to cross roads. Admittedly, not ideal, but closer to your vision.

I'm assuming your home has never caught on fire. But would you abstain from calling the fire department? What if you were mugged? Do you have a contract with a security firm, or would you call the police?

What about the services you're using but don't think you're using? There are many. Imagine all the contracts and services you'd have to evaluate, sign and so forth to make sure things aren't happening that you don't think about. And then you'd have to monitor the ownership and credentials of all those different firms going forward. What if one of them was bought by a company that has intentions counter to what you intended?

[myrkul]

Only those which I have no choice in the matter, those forced upon me. ie, Can't help but drive on Gov't roads, etc.

You are not being forced to drive on government roads. Create a contract with your neighbors and property owners between you and all places you visit, such that you can pass through their properties. Then you would only need to cross roads. Admittedly, not ideal, but closer to your vision.

I'd still be paying the taxes, though. Gas Tax. Or are you suggesting that I make my own fuel?

As for the rest, I don't see any private competition for the Fire dept, do you?

And trust me, as soon as Knight Errant Security opens for business, I'll be one of the first customers (geek points to those who catch the reference)

By the way, you still haven't responded to my question re: your reaction to seeing a cop car. Do you, or do you not, feel a little jolt of adrenaline when one shows up in your rear-view?

[ascent]

By the way, you still haven't responded to my question re: your reaction to seeing a cop car. Do you, or do you not, feel a little jolt of adrenaline when one shows up in your rear-view?

It depends on whether I am confident I am complying with the law. I used to drive for a living, so I can tell you, from vast experience, that cops don't bother me in general, unless there are issues - such as speeding, expired tags, etc. A jolt of adrenaline? Yes, in varying degrees.

Tell me, when on someone else's property, and you see security personnel (or the home owner with a gun), do you feel a jolt of adrenaline?

If your answer is no, bear in mind that your answer is only given within the experience that you are living under the greater umbrella of the host nation's set of laws, and the police to call upon. Try living in your proposed world, and then try giving a "no" answer. Bear in mind that you have never yet lived in your proposed world, and cannot say from experience what kind of adrenaline you might experience upon such an encounter. I think it stands to reason that it would be at least what you feel upon seeing a cop in your rear-view mirror.

If your answer is yes, then touche.