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Author Topic: A Non-Outsourceable Puzzle to Prevent Hosted Mining (and Mining Pools)  (Read 24644 times)
TransaDox
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September 12, 2015, 08:01:50 PM
 #41

It’s easier to come up with problems and reasons why decentralisation won’t happen than it is to come up with solutions and I wish I could offer more constructive ideas. It does seem that everything tends towards centralisation and you have to actively guard against it.

I've got to agree here. It is a hard problem that we all thought Bitcoin had conquered. Turns out; not so much.

I think the issue is profit. It's very hard to monetise a distributed system. It is why we have the internet we have to day and why Apple, Google and now Windows are walled gardens behind controlled access-ways. The target end-game of all for-profit ventures is a monopoly as that guarantees income, guarantees market share and guarantees a price.

Targeting and crippling pools I don't think is a real solution. It just removes the only real competition to commercial miners - so I question the motives. Pools were the natural progression once hobbyists were overtaken by the costs of hardware needed to claim a steady income. I see pools as more of a community enterprise to pool resources in times of hardship. Unfortunately, that always provides the way through for the rentier business to offer coordination services very much the way Amazon, Ebay or Uber do. Eventually, they will be forced out or bought out by the commercial miners who will disincentivise hard-core hobbyist to give up on mining or exploit them with unfair terms. It's the town market verses the supermarket scenario and we know who wins that.

So I suggest we don't target pools. We target mining, period. If un-outsourcable POW can decentralise away from commercial farms as well as pools, then I'm in. If it only targets my next door neigbour who bought a single Ant Miner with his Xmas cheque, then I am firmly against. Most non-outsourcable POW systems I've seen so far, however, only target the latter since a commercial miner is the admin and participants and therefor always gets the reward however you want to cut it.
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r0ach
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September 13, 2015, 11:49:42 PM
 #42

Targeting and crippling pools I don't think is a real solution. It just removes the only real competition to commercial miners

It's a no win situation for Bitcoin with either move.  I think I made a pretty good case for implementing the non-outsourceable puzzle in the following thread.  The only problem is, PoW and the non-outsourceable puzzle can probably never win in the free market vs other consensus mechanisms.  On the other hand, it seems doomed anyway if you don't address the issue.  It's a Kobayashi Maru:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1176835.0;all

A Reply in thread to clarify more:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1176835.msg12395590#msg12395590


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TransaDox
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September 14, 2015, 01:12:22 AM
 #43

Targeting and crippling pools I don't think is a real solution. It just removes the only real competition to commercial miners

It's a no win situation for Bitcoin with either move.  I think I made a pretty good case for implementing the non-outsourceable puzzle in the following thread.  The only problem is, PoW and the non-outsourceable puzzle can probably never win in the free market vs other consensus mechanisms.  On the other hand, it seems doomed anyway if you don't address the issue.  It's a Kobayashi Maru:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1176835.0;all

A Reply in thread to clarify more:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1176835.msg12395590#msg12395590


I'm not as pessimistic as that.......yet. My stance is that network integrity needs to be reliant on numbers (of clients) rather than resources and that is the key to preventing the coalescing of power structures. The unfortunate situation we currently find ourselves in is because we give too much credence to game theory and commercial interest instead of nullifying their corruptions with technology and maths.

I too think that non-outsourceable puzzles have a desirable aspect but just haven't seen any proposals that prevent the inevitable mining co-location centers. I find them uninteresting unless they can address both. I think I see where we will end up if things continue as is; just not sure what or how to change the software to prevent it right now.Most energy seems to be with this block size nonsense which I tend to view as how many fingers do we want broken rather than how do we de-claw the miners (pools and commercial) and re-claw the users. The answer to my quest also answers the mining pools and hosted mining, I believe and my intuition tells me that if there is an answer, it probably lies in non-outsourceable puzzles.
r0ach
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January 10, 2016, 10:44:24 PM
 #44

I just randomly stumbled onto this.  Some altcoin that nobody has ever heard of actually attempted it:


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