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Author Topic: Public permissioned blockchain  (Read 342 times)
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June 02, 2018, 06:27:20 AM
 #21

This topic is VERY important, because most people do not understand the difference between Public Permissionless and

Private Permissioned Blockchains. The Banks will probably introduce Private Permissioned Blockchains very soon, where they

as a centralized entity will have FULL control over the Blockchain. All mining will be done by them and you will need Permission

to access it. This is 100% against what Satoshi envisioned for this technology, but Banks and Governments wants to use the

technology, but THEY want to have FULL control over every aspect of it.  Angry

TBH, there's no point of using blockchain if it's fully controlled or private permissioned since Blockchain basically slow database compared with other database type and the only advantage is public permissionless.
Most likely those bank combine DLT with small parts of blockchain technology and claim they use Blockchain Roll Eyes

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June 04, 2018, 12:54:24 PM
 #22

someone is talking about a permissioned subcoin where users HAVE TO use a multisig address, and ask for reptilian permissoion,  to sign transactions and allow users and force them to transact only between permissioned address.

If a governnment force users to transact only between authorized address, using multisig in example, bitcoins will be splitted in two(permissioned or free) they can have 2 different value, and be accepted or denied by stores.
This idea was the worst thing ever. please fight for your right to be free.

thank you for taking time to read my post.
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June 04, 2018, 01:19:51 PM
 #23

One important note:

Right now, Bitcoin IS NOT a public permissionless  blockchain. You should buy hardware (get permission) from Bitmain to mine blocks on this chain. Face it!
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June 04, 2018, 02:14:01 PM
 #24

One important note:

Right now, Bitcoin IS NOT a public permissionless  blockchain. You should buy hardware (get permission) from Bitmain to mine blocks on this chain. Face it!

That's not what permissionless means in the context of blockchains though.

Permissionless means that anyone can receive a transaction from anyone without any central entity being able to refuse or block that transaction. That Bitmain is the currently dominating mining hardware provider has nothing to do with it. Or would you also argue that you need to "get permission" from NVIDIA / AMD to mine alt coins?

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June 04, 2018, 03:06:44 PM
Last edit: June 04, 2018, 04:00:40 PM by aliashraf
 #25

One important note:

Right now, Bitcoin IS NOT a public permissionless  blockchain. You should buy hardware (get permission) from Bitmain to mine blocks on this chain. Face it!

That's not what permissionless means in the context of blockchains though.

Permissionless means that anyone can receive a transaction from anyone without any central entity being able to refuse or block that transaction. That Bitmain is the currently dominating mining hardware provider has nothing to do with it. Or would you also argue that you need to "get permission" from NVIDIA / AMD to mine alt coins?

What  Huh  File a patent  Grin you just discovered a new kind of blockchain, congrats!

Being able to claim a transaction (announcing it and putting it in the mempool) is more about a blockchain being public.

To be permissionless means no need to get permission from a central authority for participating in the protocol to change the state of the machine, the blockchain , not just for claiming but for committing the transactions.

What does 'receiving' mean in this 'context' by the way?
oops! It is new terminology, my bad, I almost forgot you are an inventor, my apologies.

And there is huge difference between buying stuff from Intel, Nvidia, AMD, ... with buying a miner from Bitmain, don't you see it? In the latter case you buy a special purpose device for a special application: participating in bitcoin blockchain protocol but as for cpu/gpu  the manufacturer/distributor has no clue about what you are going to do with the device. Are you pretending or you are simply ignorant?

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June 04, 2018, 06:39:00 PM
 #26

To be permissionless means no need to get permission from a central authority for participating in the protocol to change the state of the machine, the blockchain , not just for claiming but for committing the transactions.

[...]

And there is huge difference between buying stuff from Intel, Nvidia, AMD, ... with buying a miner from Bitmain, don't you see it? In the latter case you buy a special purpose device for a special application: participating in bitcoin blockchain protocol but as for cpu/gpu  the manufacturer/distributor has no clue about what you are going to do with the device. Are you pretending or you are simply ignorant?

Apart from coinbase transactions there's no state to be changed without people sending transactions. Which transactions gets added to the blockchain and which not is not dependent on a singly entity, not even Bitmain.

Merely producing mining hardware does not put Bitmain in control of the network, regardless of the devices being specialized hardware. If that were the case Bitcoin Cash would have ended up being the canonical Bitcoin blockchain.

Whether you buy mining hardware from Bitmain, NVIDIA or AMD makes no difference, apart from Bitmain actively mining themselves. Looking at mining rigs and large scale alt coin mining operations (ie. the ones buying GPUs wholesale), GPUs stop being consumer devices once they are put to work on whatever alt is most profitable to mine. Hell, crypto mining had such an impact on the hardware market that GPU prices have risen substantially, leading to crypto enthusiasts being cursed by gamers all over the world. The impact of people mining as a hobby, on the other hand, using devices they use primarily as consumers (ie. gaming in the case of GPU) is negligible nowadays.

So yes, due to the industrialization of mining economics of scale has become more important than ever, making it hard for hobbyists to enter the mining market. But no, this does not make a blockchain permissioned or censorship-prone, as transactions are unaffected and for every miner that would wish to reject your transaction, another one will happily add it to the blockchain.

Either way, you obviously simply have a different definition of what the term "permissionless" is supposed to mean. Unfortunately it's neither useful nor being used.

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June 05, 2018, 06:23:00 AM
Last edit: June 05, 2018, 10:32:33 AM by aliashraf
 #27

To be permissionless means no need to get permission from a central authority for participating in the protocol to change the state of the machine, the blockchain , not just for claiming but for committing the transactions.

[...]

And there is huge difference between buying stuff from Intel, Nvidia, AMD, ... with buying a miner from Bitmain, don't you see it? In the latter case you buy a special purpose device for a special application: participating in bitcoin blockchain protocol but as for cpu/gpu  the manufacturer/distributor has no clue about what you are going to do with the device. Are you pretending or you are simply ignorant?

Apart from coinbase transactions there's no state to be changed without people sending transactions. Which transactions gets added to the blockchain and which not is not dependent on a singly entity, not even Bitmain.

People 'send' transactions to banks and it eventually changes the bank databases' states and thus banking systems are permissionless?!

In a permissionless  cash transfer system it is not enough for people to be free to produce transactions they need to be free to oversee and participate in committing the transactions. Is that so hard to understand?

Quote
Merely producing mining hardware does not put Bitmain in control of the network, regardless of the devices being specialized hardware. If that were the case Bitcoin Cash would have ended up being the canonical Bitcoin blockchain.
Yes it does! Bitmain IS in charge of Bitcoin blockchain whether you admit it or not.

Bitcoin Cash story was written by Bitmain and it happened the way Bitmain wanted it to happen. We are not talking about what his majesty wants to do, it is about what he can do!

Quote
Whether you buy mining hardware from Bitmain, NVIDIA or AMD makes no difference, apart from Bitmain actively mining themselves. Looking at mining rigs and large scale alt coin mining operations (ie. the ones buying GPUs wholesale), GPUs stop being consumer devices once they are put to work on whatever alt is most profitable to mine. Hell, crypto mining had such an impact on the hardware market that GPU prices have risen substantially, leading to crypto enthusiasts being cursed by gamers all over the world. The impact of people mining as a hobby, on the other hand, using devices they use primarily as consumers (ie. gaming in the case of GPU) is negligible nowadays.

So, Bitmain has set free Bitcoin and the whole civilization and specially gaming community with an ASIC crack against SHA256. What a fortunate incident!  Grin

Quote
So yes, due to the industrialization of mining economics of scale has become more important than ever, making it hard for hobbyists to enter the mining market. But no, this does not make a blockchain permissioned or censorship-prone, as transactions are unaffected and for every miner that would wish to reject your transaction, another one will happily add it to the blockchain.

You mean, Bitmain will commit my transaction eventually, thanks god! We are free to make transactions and his majesty will take our fees and commit them in his permissionless blockchain, our money is safe and we are happy for now and who cares about the future anyway?

There is no future, we already know, don't we? Bitcoin is not an alternative monetary system, it is just an 'asset', kept safe enough by Bitmain, a company that is incentivized enough to keep it safe. Am I missing something or it is exactly how you and guys like you, re-invented bitcoin?

Quote
Either way, you obviously simply have a different definition of what the term "permissionless" is supposed to mean. Unfortunately it's neither useful nor being used.

My perception of a permissionless blockchain requires people to be able in both generating addresses and transactions and committing (participating to commit)  transactions into the network, without buying/renting  a device/license from Bitmain or anywho to do so, is there any other definition publicly available?

Ripple for instance is known to be a permissioned system because critical roles exist there that people can not simply take without undergoing a process and get/buy a license. People can check the state, can generate transactions but can not participate in changing the state further without permission, it is a permissioned system and bitcoin, practically is not in a  better situation with ASICs and Bitmain.
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June 05, 2018, 02:04:25 PM
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 #28

People 'send' transactions to banks and it eventually changes the bank databases' states and thus banking systems are permissionless?!

Ha, nice counterpoint Grin

But no, a bank can deny your transaction, ie. prevent you from changing the bank's database. They can even reverse a transaction if they feel like it. They can even prevent you from accessing your own money for an indetermined amount of time.

A miner can do none of these things. That's the difference, and it's a crucial one.


In a permissionless  cash transfer system it is not enough for people to be free to produce transactions they need to be free to oversee and participate in committing the transactions. Is that so hard to understand?

Mining is free though. Not free as in beer, but free as in freedom. It may not be profitable, but in theory there's plenty of old miners around that you could point at the Bitcoin network.

Given enough capital and expertise, you could even develop your own ASIC hardware. There's no central entity or regulation holding you back. No one you need to ask for permission for.



Yes it does! Bitmain IS in charge of Bitcoin blockchain whether you admit it or not.

Bitcoin Cash story was written by Bitmain and it happened the way Bitmain wanted it to happen. We are not talking about what his majesty wants to do, it is about what he can do!

So what can he do?


So, Bitmain has set free Bitcoin and the whole civilization and specially gaming community with an ASIC crack against SHA256. What a fortunate incident!  Grin

Bitmain was by far not the first company to enter the mining market with a SHA256 ASIC. And they likely won't be the last. It's a free market after all.

GMO will soon show whether they can deliver:
https://news.bitcoin.com/japans-internet-giant-gmo-launch-7nm-bitcoin-miner-june/

Samsung is also entering the mining market:
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/263254-samsung-begins-manufacturing-asic-chips-mining-cryptocurrency


[...] Am I missing something or it is exactly how you and guys like you, re-invented bitcoin?

Please elaborate on what you mean by "reinventing Bitcoin"


My perception of a permissionless blockchain requires people to be able in both generating addresses and transactions and committing (participating to commit)  transactions into the network, without buying/renting  a device/license from Bitmain or anywho to do so, is there any other definition publicly available?

That one for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain

Permissioned blockchains use an access control layer to govern who has access to the network. In contrast to public blockchain networks, validators on private blockchain networks are vetted by the network owner. They do not rely on anonymous nodes to validate transactions nor do they benefit from the network effect.

Bitmain does neither control Bitcoin nor do they prevent other people from entering the network as miners. Merely having to buy dedicated hardware to profitably mine does not constitute access denial. Even as far back as 2012/2013 one could only profitably mine with a dedicated miner, except in that case you had to buy from AMD. And no one would have ever claimed that AMD is charging a "license fee" for mining BTC despite being the only company to offer a family of GPUs that could profitably mine.


Ripple for instance is known to be a permissioned system because critical roles exist there that people can not simply take without undergoing a process and get/buy a license. People can check the state, can generate transactions but can not participate in changing the state further without permission, it is a permissioned system and bitcoin, practically is not in a  better situation with ASICs and Bitmain.

Any company can produce ASICs. As mentioned above, many did before Bitmain. And likely even more will after. Permissioned blockchains require legitimization by a central entity. Bitcoin mining does not. Creating Bitcoin mining hardware does not.

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