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Author Topic: Suggestion: Merit Phase 2 - Drain the Swamp (@theymos)  (Read 2200 times)
TheQuin
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March 14, 2018, 09:35:08 AM
Merited by redsn0w (8), Vod (6), Foxpup (6), TMAN (5), suchmoon (4), achow101 (3), ibminer (3), mmhaimhai (3), yahoo62278 (2), malevolent (1), d5000 (1), owlcatz (1), botany (1), LoyceV (1), InvoKing (1), Jet Cash (1), LTU_btc (1), boranes (1), flip4flop (1), bitperson (1), Alone055 (1), DdmrDdmr (1), 1993jochico (1)
 #1

The Merit system has been with us for six weeks now and is clearly having some success in reducing the spam. It is now very hard, if not impossible, for account farmers to provide a constant supply of high ranked accounts. This, of course, is good news for any of us who have become tired of finding any interesting content quickly buried under a pile of shitposts.

What this hasn't addressed is the large number of accounts already in the hands of shitposters. Let's be honest about what rank is all about - signatures and the ability to gain income from them. The ability of someone who is already in possession of, for example, a Hero account (or 10) to continue to get paid for every shitpost they tack on the end of a spam megathread has not diminished or been restrained by the Merit system.

Some campaign managers have taken the initiative to make minimum Merit requirements compulsory to join their campaigns but those managers were already the ones with high standards. They were not the problem, it has always been the managers that just blindly accept the first x hundred people to apply and pay them regardless of the spam they produce.

I have noticed that these spammers are very easy to spot now, they are the ones stuck on 100, 250, 500 or whatever merit number they were initially given. They haven't managed to gain one single Merit point in the last 6 weeks.

So to my suggestion:

Amend the forum to hide signatures of any account that hasn't earned at least 1 Merit in the last 2 months.

This will bar them from getting paid to post and not have any negative impact on anyone making even the tiniest contribution to the forum. Nobody loses their rank and even if someone is away from the forum for a while they can quickly get their signature back.


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March 14, 2018, 09:59:32 AM
 #2

I agree with you. Accounts which won't get any merit (or specific number of merits depends on each rank because higher ranks should have more knowledge, more skills, more experience, so they will probably have more chances to earn merits) over a specific period (might be one, two or three months) should be disabled ability to wear signature.

Prerequisites related to merit points to join campaigns, bounties depends on those campaigns managers, not forum admin. So this suggestion is not appropriate.

Thanks for all of your recommendations, TheQuin.

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March 14, 2018, 10:01:48 AM
 #3

Not bad idea, but i think it's too complicated. Disable signature or limit signature usage (far less character, no background/color) is more effective.

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March 14, 2018, 10:09:10 AM
 #4

Prerequisites related to merit points to join campaigns, bounties depends on those campaigns managers, not forum admin. So this suggestion is not appropriate.

That's the idea. It doesn't stop anyone joining a Twitter bounty or whatever but there would be no point paying anyone to post on the forum if their signature was hidden.


Not bad idea, but i think it's too complicated. Disable signature or limit signature usage (far less character, no background/color) is more effective.

How is it complicated? I suggested disable (hide) the signature rather than limit it as many of the bounty sig campaigns have decided to continue to recruit Jr. Members and just put a text URL in it.

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March 14, 2018, 10:49:36 AM
 #5

Yes it could be implemented I remember back then that I wasn't able to wear a signature for at least a weeks.
If those persons haven't receive a single merit there's a possibility that those individual is only posting without even reading the thread or the topic of discussion.

So it would mean that those person is only using the forum for their own interest.

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March 14, 2018, 10:53:42 AM
 #6

It sounds like a good idea on the face of it, but I suspect that the bad managers will arrange for their posters to receive merit to bypass the restriction.

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March 14, 2018, 10:59:19 AM
 #7

It sounds like a good idea on the face of it, but I suspect that the bad managers will arrange for their posters to receive merit to bypass the restriction.

I did think of that. Unfortunately, any system devised by man there will be another man trying to game it. The problem they will face is that they will quickly run out of sMerit to abuse, that was why I suggested an ongoing requirement. Like the Merit system itself, it will take time for it to show its full effect.

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March 14, 2018, 11:01:04 AM
 #8

There is currently no such thing as a "demerit". I'm hoping that the positive merits alone will be fine. I could add demerits pretty easily later on if necessary, though.

Maybe it's time for demerits to be implemented. I think that if a demerit subtracted merit from the sender too, or cost twice as much sMerit it would minimize abuse.

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March 14, 2018, 11:04:52 AM
Merited by d5000 (1), bitperson (1)
 #9

There is currently no such thing as a "demerit". I'm hoping that the positive merits alone will be fine. I could add demerits pretty easily later on if necessary, though.

Maybe it's time for demerits to be implemented. I think that if a demerit subtracted merit from the sender too, or cost twice as much sMerit it would minimize abuse.

I think that is a terrible idea as it will just be used to demerit posts that people disagree with and as part of personal vendettas. I suggested an alternative that I don't think has these disadvantages. Do you have any comment on it?

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March 14, 2018, 11:07:01 AM
 #10

Eventually the account farmers will run out of merits to tip themselves. Hilariousandco has nailed a few accounts already for merit abuse, as has Lauda I believe. This is when we can successfully implement rules for campaigns(or theymos cam implement them).

Something like users must earn 5 merits a months for their account to display a signature if being done by theymos or managers can make a user earn 1 merit per week to stay in a campaign.

The problem is still gonna be the same managers whom accept anyone and everyone. If all aren't on board it will fail. Kinda why I feel theymos should implement the restrictions.

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March 14, 2018, 11:10:40 AM
Merited by d5000 (1), vlom (1), Xynerise (1)
 #11

I like the basis of the idear, however i do think there are a couple high-ranking members that post only very seldomly... If they have only made 1 or 2 posts since the merit system was introduced, they risk losing their sigspace if this system were to be automated. Granted, those members aren't in a sigcampaign to begin with, but they do use their sigspace to promote threads, promote their own businesses, insert funny quotes, show the address of their tipjar,...

I guess it might be better if mods had the power to disable signatures for everybody who received less than 1 merit in the last month... That way the mod could use his own judgement wether or not the person in question is a spammer, or just a very low volume poster that just didn't receive any merits because of their low post frequency.

Just my personal opinion tough...

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March 14, 2018, 11:13:43 AM
 #12

Something like users must earn 5 merits a months for their account to display a signature if being done by theymos or managers can make a user earn 1 merit per week to stay in a campaign.
This idea is good, and suitable to apply for next campaigns with new rules from forum admin. I am waiting for this one. It will be better to restrict campaigns like this because it will help to eliminate accounts which have already stayed at higher ranks before the launch of merit system. Those ones should be prevent to join campaigns somehow, and your suggestion might be one of appropriate solution to control spamming-higher-rank users.

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March 14, 2018, 11:14:03 AM
 #13

Something like users must earn 5 merits a months for their account to display a signature if being done by theymos or managers can make a user earn 1 merit per week to stay in a campaign.
I strongly disagree with this.Even though the merit system is doing well,I don't think every quality poster is awarded merits.My point being,a participant could be a great quality poster but due to whatever reasons his unmerited posts shouldn't stop him from participating in campaigns.

This also means anybody who has earned 1 merit in a week but is a spammer to the core will also be eligible to display the signature.I can show you 10 shit one liner posts which have been credited with 10+ merits.

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March 14, 2018, 11:15:38 AM
 #14

There is currently no such thing as a "demerit". I'm hoping that the positive merits alone will be fine. I could add demerits pretty easily later on if necessary, though.

Maybe it's time for demerits to be implemented. I think that if a demerit subtracted merit from the sender too, or cost twice as much sMerit it would minimize abuse.

I think that is a terrible idea as it will just be used to demerit posts that people disagree with and as part of personal vendettas. I suggested an alternative that I don't think has these disadvantages. Do you have any comment on it?


I don't think that it would solve the problem. The spammers would just send themselves (or buy) one merit point every two months.

Maybe if somebody received a large amount of demerits they could have their signature rights revoked, or maybe an increased cooldown between posts.

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March 14, 2018, 11:17:18 AM
 #15

Eventually the account farmers will run out of merits to tip themselves. Hilariousandco has nailed a few accounts already for merit abuse, as has Lauda I believe. This is when we can successfully implement rules for campaigns(or theymos cam implement them).

Something like users must earn 5 merits a months for their account to display a signature if being done by theymos or managers can make a user earn 1 merit per week to stay in a campaign.

The problem is still gonna be the same managers whom accept anyone and everyone. If all aren't on board it will fail. Kinda why I feel theymos should implement the restrictions.

Making rules for campaigns to follow means that someone has to police them so my suggestion pretty much amounts to the same thing but automated.

As to the numbers, I suggested 1 Merit / 2 months, but really if it's 5 Merit / Month or whatever, that's just detail that needs to be finessed.



I like the basis of the idear, however i do think there are a couple high-ranking members that post only very seldomly... If they have only made 1 or 2 posts since the merit system was introduced, they risk losing their sigspace if this system were to be automated. Granted, those members aren't in a sigcampaign to begin with, but they do use their sigspace to promote threads, promote their own businesses, insert funny quotes, show the address of their tipjar,...

I guess it might be better if mods had the power to disable signatures for everybody who received less than 1 merit in the last month... That way the mod could use his own judgement wether or not the person in question is a spammer, or just a very low volume poster that just didn't receive any merits because of their low post frequency.

Just my personal opinion tough...

There is inevitably a little collateral damage as you suggest. My thinking is that a signature is a reward for providing content for the forum, so if you no longer provide content why should you continue to be rewarded in perpetuity?



I don't think that it would solve the problem. The spammers would just send themselves (or buy) one merit point every two months.

Maybe if somebody received a large amount of demerits they could have their signature rights revoked, or maybe an increased cooldown between posts.

They'll soon run out of sMerit. Demerit is open to hundreds of times the level of abuse.


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March 14, 2018, 11:27:32 AM
 #16

I think disable sig for all is much easier and fair solution, changing this and that probably can introduce bugs into the system and probably can lead to unknown catastrophic vulnerability. This is not a place to make money and everyone should go by the same rule.

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March 14, 2018, 11:31:48 AM
 #17

I think disable sig for all is much easier and fair solution,

It is definitely easier but alas less fair. The forum allows its members to directly benefit from providing content by allowing them advertising space in return. You are suggesting that everyone should be punished because of the actions of some.

changing this and that probably can introduce bugs into the system and probably can lead to unknown catastrophic vulnerability.

You should put that crack pipe down.

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March 14, 2018, 01:18:16 PM
 #18

So to my suggestion:

Amend the forum to hide signatures of any account that hasn't earned at least 1 Merit in the last 2 months.

This will bar them from getting paid to post and not have any negative impact on anyone making even the tiniest contribution to the forum. Nobody loses their rank and even if someone is away from the forum for a while they can quickly get their signature back.
I like your idea of hiding the signatures of the signature campaign participants. This will force them to make a high quality posts in order for the signatures to be seen. Although I see that mostly will abuse it by just giving their alt one merit and they will be paid but it can be solved because you can track the merits of a certain user.

There is currently no such thing as a "demerit". I'm hoping that the positive merits alone will be fine. I could add demerits pretty easily later on if necessary, though.

Maybe it's time for demerits to be implemented. I think that if a demerit subtracted merit from the sender too, or cost twice as much sMerit it would minimize abuse.
To be honest, I don't like the word demerit. Demerit if added in this forum will be abuse by many users. Lets say, I am angry with user X and lets say I will demerit him 5 times or 10 times not because he is a shitposter but because I am angry with him. This can happen with anybody that is why I don't like demerit in the forum. Just merit  Wink Wink

In my opinion, maybe all of the bounty campaigns must have a minimum merit requirement and all of the campaign manager must put a minimum merit of maybe 3-5 to Jr member, 15-20 to Member, 105-110 to Full member and so on and so forth. In this way, it will be harder for shitposters to join in the signature campaign because they don't have enough merits to join.

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March 14, 2018, 02:08:25 PM
 #19

-snip-
Although I see that mostly will abuse it by just giving their alt one merit and they will be paid but it can be solved because you can track the merits of a certain user.

We should note that it might cause a dispute whether giving +1 merit for 'this' or 'that' post is abusive or not.
But this is not a big problem as we can discuss it openly.

Giving money to those shitposters is much more problematic.

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March 14, 2018, 02:15:29 PM
Merited by Foxpup (1), mprep (1), EFS (1), botany (1), LoyceV (1), bbcolex (1), Revenant 02 (1)
 #20

There are a lot of cases where innocent people would be penalized under the proposed system. People who don't post that often, those who go on a break from the forum, people who post in sections where merit sources are still thin, etc would all have a much higher risk of unfairly having their signatures removed. The last thing I'd like to see is decent occasional posters begging for merit or posting when they don't want to just so they can keep their signature.

I think the better option is to just let the account farmers continue to get frustrated, and the moderators will find them eventually.

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March 14, 2018, 02:22:18 PM
 #21

Is there any chance for all managers to gather and discuss a standard of merit requirement for the campaign they handle? In my opinion this is an interesting to do because managers can be served as spammer controller and this would be a great addition to the SMAS.


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March 14, 2018, 02:29:56 PM
 #22

There are a lot of cases where innocent people would be penalized under the proposed system. People who don't post that often, those who go on a break from the forum, people who post in sections where merit sources are still thin, etc would all have a much higher risk of unfairly having their signatures removed. The last thing I'd like to see is decent occasional posters begging for merit or posting when they don't want to just so they can keep their signature.

I do understand your point. I did try and make the requirement as minimal as possible for this reason. One Merit in the last two months doesn't really require being that active. Also, it is only tempory as the signature is only hidden until they do get a merit point.


I think the better option is to just let the account farmers continue to get frustrated, and the moderators will find them eventually.

Let's hope so.



Is there any chance for all managers to gather and discuss a standard of merit requirement for the campaign they handle? In my opinion this is an interesting to do because managers can be served as spammer controller and this would be a great addition to the SMAS.

The problem is that in a lot of the altcoin/ico bounties the managers don't give a shit and just want to get as many page impressions as possible regardless.

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March 14, 2018, 02:45:24 PM
 #23

As I read some rules of the forum, I see this merit system has a big impact on reducing spam, but im not agree with this suggestion because I think it is easy for them to get 1 merit especially those account has sMerit stock on them so they can trade some merit points to other people that you call shitposters, and the second way is to create new account and then give 2 merit and get back the 1 merit, I assume those spammers and farmers not only have 1 high rank accounts, the effect of the system you are proposing will cause create more dummy account and they can level up their dummys until member rank. Sorry for my bad english.

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March 14, 2018, 02:48:18 PM
 #24

As I read some rules of the forum, I see this merit system has a big impact on reducing spam, but im not agree with this suggestion because I think it is easy for them to get 1 merit especially those account has sMerit stock on them so they can trade some merit points to other people that you call shitposters, and the second way is to create new account and then give 2 merit and get back the 1 merit, I assume those spammers and farmers not only have 1 high rank accounts, the effect of the system you are proposing will cause create more dummy account and they can level up their dummys until member rank. Sorry for my bad english.

Your English is fine but you should have read the thread as I've already answered this. That is why it is an ongoing requirement, they will soon run out of Merit to pass around.

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March 14, 2018, 02:51:54 PM
 #25

So to my suggestion:

Amend the forum to hide signatures of any account that hasn't earned at least 1 Merit in the last 2 months.

This will bar them from getting paid to post and not have any negative impact on anyone making even the tiniest contribution to the forum. Nobody loses their rank and even if someone is away from the forum for a while they can quickly get their signature back.
I like your idea of hiding the signatures of the signature campaign participants. This will force them to make a high quality posts in order for the signatures to be seen. Although I see that mostly will abuse it by just giving their alt one merit and they will be paid but it can be solved because you can track the merits of a certain user.

There is currently no such thing as a "demerit". I'm hoping that the positive merits alone will be fine. I could add demerits pretty easily later on if necessary, though.

Maybe it's time for demerits to be implemented. I think that if a demerit subtracted merit from the sender too, or cost twice as much sMerit it would minimize abuse.
To be honest, I don't like the word demerit. Demerit if added in this forum will be abuse by many users. Lets say, I am angry with user X and lets say I will demerit him 5 times or 10 times not because he is a shitposter but because I am angry with him. This can happen with anybody that is why I don't like demerit in the forum. Just merit  Wink Wink

In my opinion, maybe all of the bounty campaigns must have a minimum merit requirement and all of the campaign manager must put a minimum merit of maybe 3-5 to Jr member, 15-20 to Member, 105-110 to Full member and so on and so forth. In this way, it will be harder for shitposters to join in the signature campaign because they don't have enough merits to join.
I like that no demerits, im really glad i found this thread, coz im wondering how can i earn merits?

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March 14, 2018, 02:53:47 PM
 #26

I was thinking about something similar and I tend to agree with your suggestion.
And I more concerned about Jr. Members than high ranked users. Now many bounties are still accepting Jr. Members, despite that they can't wear clickable signatures. So, they don't even need to get Merit if they want to earn from bounty campaigns by shitposting. Offcourse, they will earn less than high ranked users, but it doesn't really matter. Maybe they will never earn any single Merit, but they don't care much about it as long as they earning money on bitcointalk. Additional to what you said, I think that even basic signatures should be disabled if user haven't earned any Merits.

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March 14, 2018, 02:58:24 PM
 #27

I was thinking about something similar and I tend to agree with your suggestion.
And I more concerned about Jr. Members than high ranked users. Now many bounties are still accepting Jr. Members, despite that they can't wear clickable signatures. So, they don't even need to get Merit if they want to earn from bounty campaigns by shitposting. Offcourse, they will earn less than high ranked users, but it doesn't really matter. Maybe they will never earn any single Merit, but they don't care much about it as long as they earning money on bitcointalk. Additional to what you said,

Thanks, yes that is what is concerning me about the Jr. Members. If they earn 1/10th as much they'll just make 10x as many accounts.

I think that even basic signatures should be disabled if user haven't earned any Merits.

That is exactly what I envisaged. No merit in the last 60 days = signature hidden. So nobody would have a signature until receiving their first merit.

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March 14, 2018, 03:28:22 PM
 #28

I actually liked the idea, but that, in my opinion, won't change a lot of things. We (or you, as you have started this) are talking about the spammers that have already surpassed the levels before the Merit system was implemented, and as we all know that every account have received Merits according to their rank at the initial Merit distribution, and thus they got half of that amount as sMerits to send to others. So if a person (a spammer, more particularly) had more than 1 accounts in higher ranks, they all must have received Merits as well, which they would probably use to Merit their own accounts in order to bypass this change as well.

Sending only 1 Merit to your own alt won't really make you suspicious, but receiving just 1 Merit would surely make you safe from the change that we are discussing right now. So if the spammers start exchanging 1 Merit between their accounts, they will all be able to tackle this change too.
So maybe something quite more effective should be done. Something that should not let the spammers skip it at any cost.
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March 14, 2018, 03:37:50 PM
 #29

Is there any chance for all managers to gather and discuss a standard of merit requirement for the campaign they handle? In my opinion this is an interesting to do because managers can be served as spammer controller and this would be a great addition to the SMAS.



^^^^

if Theymos implemented some rules to becoming a manager, then set some standards around minimum merits.. bosh spam goes away

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March 14, 2018, 03:50:00 PM
 #30

Mate, you have good ideas and I like your participation in the forums but the "best" example of the "partial" inefficiency of your idea is Deeponion...
I will let you enjoy hurting your eyes with ridiculous smerit given to newbies to get 10 smerit at any cost.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1038794

I would say, I support your idea but further actions are required...



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March 14, 2018, 03:50:46 PM
 #31

Is there any chance for all managers to gather and discuss a standard of merit requirement for the campaign they handle? In my opinion this is an interesting to do because managers can be served as spammer controller and this would be a great addition to the SMAS.



^^^^

if Theymos implemented some rules to becoming a manager, then set some standards around minimum merits.. bosh spam goes away

Yup, i would love to see it and called it as The Managers (group of super managers like The Avengers) while Theymos is Nick Fury, or maybe Managers League would do too, haha. What i want to say is the sam as TMAN,  since everybody can be a manager (especially the famous and skilled one) i guess it is a good thing if there are some rules to be a manager .

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March 14, 2018, 03:51:41 PM
 #32

As I read some rules of the forum, I see this merit system has a big impact on reducing spam, but im not agree with this suggestion because I think it is easy for them to get 1 merit especially those account has sMerit stock on them so they can trade some merit points to other people that you call shitposters, and the second way is to create new account and then give 2 merit and get back the 1 merit, I assume those spammers and farmers not only have 1 high rank accounts, the effect of the system you are proposing will cause create more dummy account and they can level up their dummys until member rank. Sorry for my bad english.

Your English is fine but you should have read the thread as I've already answered this. That is why it is an ongoing requirement, they will soon run out of Merit to pass around.

Sorry for that im using CP at the moment, back to the topic your idea will take a long time to eliminate those shit people maybe admins will came up with a better idea.
In my own real opinion the only problem here is that sMerit this system just cause unfair to other members here in your forum, I think the best way for many arguments about the system is to shut down the sMerit system (not the merit system) and assign those trusted high ranks in merit distribution. So that only the officials can send meriy to everyone, I think 1 official in every section excluding local section they can manage the distribution easily and those shit peoples can never increase their ranks unless they start learning and contribute in the community fairly.

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March 14, 2018, 04:01:57 PM
 #33

Mate, you have good ideas and I like your participation in the forums but the "best" example of the "partial" inefficiency of your idea is Deeponion...
I will let you enjoy hurting your eyes with ridiculous smerit given to newbies to get 10 smerit at any cost.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1038794

I would say, I support your idea but further actions are required...

Thanks. I know it is easy to get frustrated with Merit abuse, just look at this fella https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2896910.msg32299023#msg32299023 and it seems that DT are too busy arguing amongst themselves to bother tagging all the cases that have been found.

But... It is only a temporary situation, the sMerit will run out. That's why I believe putting in a system like this that requires an ongoing merit threshold or your signature is hidden until you get it will be more effective than trying to catch them all in the long run.

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March 14, 2018, 04:06:48 PM
 #34

if Theymos implemented some rules to becoming a manager, then set some standards around minimum merits.. bosh spam goes away

If Theymos implements rules, he then needs to enforce them.  :/

We need more moderators!

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March 14, 2018, 04:20:01 PM
 #35

If Theymos implements rules, he then needs to enforce them.  :/

We need more moderators!

Then hire more eligible moderators.
If it would help the forum certain laws/rules need to be brought in stage.

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March 14, 2018, 05:44:37 PM
 #36

I do not truly like the idea of managers making accounts have a certain amount of merit before they can participate or that they have to earn a certain amount a week because then you are leaving your participation up to if someone else feels that you have put out a quality post.  I also agree that there needs to be something in place to limit any type of account farming because that is not fair to everyone else and people get tired of reading a lot of the posts.  I wish the merit stuff would have started a week later because then i could have gotten my member status.  LoL.  I will get there eventually.  Have not had a big chance to post much lately as I have had other things outside of crypto consuming me. 

Bottom line for me...anything we can do to limit spam and make the forum better, I am for...just dont like leaving my participation in a bounty or something up to someone else and if they find my post is something valuable and worth merit.

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March 14, 2018, 05:49:33 PM
 #37

It sounds like a good idea on the face of it, but I suspect that the bad managers will arrange for their posters to receive merit to bypass the restriction.
Ouch! This is a heavy allegation. You make it sound like the campaign managers are accomplices in this spamming the forum struggles to eradicate.

The problem is that in a lot of the altcoin/ico bounties the managers don't give a shit and just want to get as many page impressions as possible regardless.
Managers here express more laxity than their colleagues at the btc paying campaigns. I don't think they deliberately want to not be thorough but maybe the crave to keep the scarcely got jobs make them a bit relaxed with strictness to adherence to posting rules.


If Theymos implements rules, he then needs to enforce them.  :/

We need more moderators!

Then hire more eligible moderators.
If it would help the forum certain laws/rules need to be brought in stage.
I think the forums have enough moderators. They only need to step up their game and be top notch getting defaulters to face the wrath of the forum. The existing laws need to start getting enforced.


Something like users must earn 5 merits a months for their account to display a signature if being done by theymos or managers can make a user earn 1 merit per week to stay in a campaign.
I strongly disagree with this.Even though the merit system is doing well,I don't think every quality poster is awarded merits.My point being,a participant could be a great quality poster but due to whatever reasons his unmerited posts shouldn't stop him from participating in campaigns.
Well done Joel. Your position can not be faulted.

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March 14, 2018, 05:55:22 PM
 #38



Amend the forum to hide signatures of any account that hasn't earned at least 1 Merit in the last 2 months.

This will bar them from getting paid to post and not have any negative impact on anyone making even the tiniest contribution to the forum. Nobody loses their rank and even if someone is away from the forum for a while they can quickly get their signature back.



Hah!  Easy for you to say...  What about cute trolls like me that people seldom give merits to?  I sure am a narcissistic assh*le in the forum at times, but I'm far from being a spammer.

And I'm not here to please anybody for merits.  F*ck that.

One way to make this forum better is to be extra stict for a year or so...

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March 14, 2018, 05:59:44 PM
 #39

I mentioned this earlier but I am still a bit lost here.

The people with multiple accounts are just passing merits to their alt accounts aren’t they? Which means that the merit system isn’t affecting hem at all if they already have established accounts?

It looks like some alt account holders are highlighted but still with us months on.

Can’t alt accounts just have a temp bad on the highest activity account but a perm ban on the lower alts?


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March 14, 2018, 06:14:48 PM
Merited by Foxpup (1)
 #40

I wouldn't mind if the initial Merit drops by 1 point per month, but that would instantly create a sales market for Merit. A month later, the sales price would probably go up.

As an alternative: I would love to see more shitposters banned! Merit has closed the flood gates, now it's time to start mopping the floor. Each banned account used to be replaced by 10 new ones, but that won't happen anymore. Once gone, nothing will grow back in it's place!

I guess it might be better if mods had the power to disable signatures for everybody who received less than 1 merit in the last month... That way the mod could use his own judgement wether or not the person in question is a spammer, or just a very low volume poster that just didn't receive any merits because of their low post frequency.
Why should Mods demerit them, if they can ban them directly?

Is there any chance for all managers to gather and discuss a standard of merit requirement for the campaign they handle? In my opinion this is an interesting to do because managers can be served as spammer controller and this would be a great addition to the SMAS.
From my limited experience as a signature campaign manager: the quality of posters largely depends on the available budget. A campaign manager can only select the best possible posters if he has the highest budget at his disposal.

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March 14, 2018, 06:50:16 PM
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 #41

I think, that I am not the only one:
I did not receive a single merit since this new system started.
Maybe its because I am not making friends here. Maybe I am posting in the wrong threads. Maybe my postings don't reach that high quality which is needed for earning merits ... I don't know. I don't take care about it. It doesn't matter. In the meantime, I have said goodbye to the idea of being able to ascend again at all.
Again: That doesn't matter.

But getting a spammer's stamp on my account ... nah ... that matters.

So please take care, that you don't hit the wrong members when you try to solve a big (yes! it is!) problem here.

Regards!
McW


edit:
You should take a look here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3121688.0

It is very hard to earn merits. And when you let them drop every months, you will leave a lot of frustrated members behind...

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March 14, 2018, 07:15:29 PM
 #42

Hiding signature of members who have been unable to get any merit to their default merit points will be a good idea but yet again, that won't still too shitposting. And need I remind you that not everyone who hasn't got any extra merit that ain't making good posts. So the idea won't favour those who are trying to produce quality posts and yet to get any merit. I would suggest spammy accounts or shitposting accounts gets demoted in rank.

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March 14, 2018, 07:18:47 PM
 #43

I think, that I am not the only one:
I did not receive a single merit since this new system started.
Maybe its because I am not making friends here. Maybe I am posting in the wrong threads. Maybe my postings don't reach that high quality which is needed for earning merits ... I don't know. I don't take care about it. It doesn't matter. In the meantime, I have said goodbye to the idea of being able to ascend again at all.
Again: That doesn't matter.

But getting a spammer's stamp on my account ... nah ... that matters.

So please take care, that you don't hit the wrong members when you try to solve a big (yes! it is!) problem here.

Regards!
McW


edit:
You should take a look here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3121688.0

It is very hard to earn merits. And when you let them drop every months, you will leave a lot of frustrated members behind...
That's another area people like the op don't see. Most merits gotten here, come from friends sharing their merits within their cliques and when you don't have friends, you might last forever without a merit except a good Samaritan stops by your post and merits it. Aol I stand to disagree with the OPs suggestions of hiding signature.

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March 14, 2018, 07:59:40 PM
 #44

The Merit system has been with us for six weeks now and is clearly having some success in reducing the spam. It is now very hard, if not impossible, for account farmers to provide a constant supply of high ranked accounts. This, of course, is good news for any of us who have become tired of finding any interesting content quickly buried under a pile of shitposts.

What this hasn't addressed is the large number of accounts already in the hands of shitposters. Let's be honest about what rank is all about - signatures and the ability to gain income from them. The ability of someone who is already in possession of, for example, a Hero account (or 10) to continue to get paid for every shitpost they tack on the end of a spam megathread has not diminished or been restrained by the Merit system.

Some campaign managers have taken the initiative to make minimum Merit requirements compulsory to join their campaigns but those managers were already the ones with high standards. They were not the problem, it has always been the managers that just blindly accept the first x hundred people to apply and pay them regardless of the spam they produce.

I have noticed that these spammers are very easy to spot now, they are the ones stuck on 100, 250, 500 or whatever merit number they were initially given. They haven't managed to gain one single Merit point in the last 6 weeks.

So to my suggestion:

Amend the forum to hide signatures of any account that hasn't earned at least 1 Merit in the last 2 months.

This will bar them from getting paid to post and not have any negative impact on anyone making even the tiniest contribution to the forum. Nobody loses their rank and even if someone is away from the forum for a while they can quickly get their signature back.



I believe that this system would lead to covert merit selling, and it would be very difficult to trade since they will only be distributing 1 merit at a time. I suspect that this would undermine the entire system.

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fxstrike
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March 14, 2018, 11:33:52 PM
 #45

If you don't have all the metrics and calculate all probable outcome, this is just like beating the bush, without concrete evidence, and simply just categorized everyone that received no merit for the last 6 weeks as spammer.

What about those high rank member who is exchanging Merit between them ? freely posting unnecessary comment and reply mostly just threatening, harassing, abusing low rank members, don't their post count as spam too, they have incentive to post unnecessary reply to build up their activity count and they wear campaign sig as well, they get away form being caught because they have friend Meriting their unnecessary replies

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March 14, 2018, 11:59:21 PM
Merited by Foxpup (1)
 #46

I really do like this idea. It doesn't need to be something strict, such as requiring 1 merit every week. But just have a default amount that's necessary to unlock signatures. Just 1 merit. No time limit; no restraints (EDIT: On second thought, maybe 1 Merit every 120 days). I think what a lot of the naysayers here neglect to realize is that in due time, sMerit decay should take effect, and default sMerit (from when the system was introduced) will run dry. When this happens, there won't be as much merit to easily toss around, as it currently is.

But if this was made a default option, then shitty campaign managers would then be forced into actually reviewing their applicants, rather than just accepting anyone and everyone. "Joe, but they would just merit the accounts they accept into the campaign!" Let's say their campaign is for 50 participants. They'll need 50 sMerits to give to the participants, which means they'll need to receive 100 Merits in order to do so. This is not an easy task in itself.

I think it's a simple solution, and once implemented, does not need much oversight to enforce it.



Maybe its because I am not making friends here. Maybe I am posting in the wrong threads. Maybe my postings don't reach that high quality which is needed for earning merits ... I don't know. I don't take care about it. It doesn't matter. In the meantime, I have said goodbye to the idea of being able to ascend again at all.

It's because most of your posts are in Altcoins and Altcoin Speculation. Those really aren't great places for your post to receive merit, and there are some pretty hefty megathreads where your post may be overlooked within a matter of a day or two. If you look in the Meta and Services boards, there are currently TONS of ways to get your meritorious posts recognized to earn a few merits here and there.




I think the forums have enough moderators. They only need to step up their game and be top notch getting defaulters to face the wrath of the forum. The existing laws need to start getting enforced.


I disagree. Yes, it's fine and dandy when you have a watchtower filled with members who patrol the forums and report posts to moderators... But try for yourself. Pick a board, any board. Add that entire board to your watchlist. And then try to go through each thread and each post and act like a moderator. Read each post and see if it meets the forum requirements and rules. I think you'd be surprised as to how many posts are actually made on a daily basis here. And then imagine the times when you're not able to be online; what do you think you'll come back to? A forum that took a break and paused all of its activity because you were not online?

This forum needs more moderators. The existing ones are doing a great job, but the forum has grown immensely since most of them have been hired, and there are more shitposters than ever.

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March 15, 2018, 12:05:10 AM
 #47

Having read through the thread there seem to be a few themes in the responses.

1. What about the fact that people can abuse this by giving merits to friends or alts or buying them.

- This is 100% true but it shouldn't be the basis for not implementing something. It's like saying 'we won't make drugs illegal because people can still get them from other sources'. There is no measure that will be perfect but if it stops some people and makes it harder for others then it's a winner.

2. What about the people that don't spam but haven't earned merit.

- These are the guys who'd lose out in this case, there are people who just don't post much or might have been inactive for a while, it's unfair that they lose out.

The biggest suggestion I have and I've said it before and seen it said before in this thread and elsewhere is to stop JR Member accounts. Right now there is no barrier to entry for these accounts, they just sign up, spam 30 posts and they're ready to earn. Remove signatures completely for JR Members and then that problem is gone.

After the problem of an ever increasing number of JR Members is stopped then it shouldn't be so hard for moderators to keep a handle on things and clean up the rest of the place. I always liked the idea of having some system that flagged accounts to moderators if they'd not received a merit within a certain number of posts for example. It wouldn't be an automatic ban or neg trust but would just bring their accounts to attention.
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March 15, 2018, 01:31:04 AM
Merited by Foxpup (3), d5000 (1), nullius (1)
 #48

The irony of this thread? It looks like everyone in support of the OP is wearing a paid signature ad. Many of the people you will be penalizing are not. That should be the first sign that you're barking up the wrong tree.

Why should someone lose signature privileges because they don't post very often? Or because they're inactive for a while? Or because there's not enough merit to go around? Or because they're not in a social group that customarily merits each other (like Default Trust cliques, the Wall Observer regulars, etc)? How do you even know that merit distribution is adequate to begin penalizing those who don't earn it?

If some posters aren't receiving merit, it doesn't necessarily follow that post quality is the determining factor, either. I've seen no change since I said this one month ago:

The merit system is very simple:  Meritorious posts earn merit.

That may have been the stated intent. But is it generally true? Some meritorious posts earn merit. We can agree on that. Certainly, not all meritorious posts are even noticed, let alone merited. You have to wade through a lot of shitposting in e.g. Bitcoin Discussion to find quality posts, and regarding sMerit, I suspect that's not where peoples' energy is going.

It's natural for merit to be concentrated in Meta, too. "About the forum" sections tend to be the most community-oriented boards out there. And at its core, merit seems to function like a social media "like" button. I don't see how you can stop people from meriting posts they like or agree with, just as they do with "like" buttons. But something you find agreeable =/= quality or noteworthy or deserving of merit. Not by definition, and not by the stated intent of the system.

I'm not too concerned either way, but I think it's a tad dishonest for us to act like post quality is the only determining factor -- or even the most dominant factor -- in deciding merit. It's just not logical. There are social/psychological dynamics that are going unconsidered.

I've raised the matter in Meta a couple times, but no one responds. They just continue to cheerlead, "The merit system is working so great!" Well then, let's see some statistics, please. And a handful of anecdotal data points about "exceptional posters" isn't nearly enough (IMO) to start actively penalizing most forum members. My sense is that there's too much passing around of merit within social circles and not enough given for thoughtful posts.

And you can be damn sure that no matter how meritorious a post is, you will not receive merit if your opinions are not agreeable. Nobody hits the "like" button when Debbie Downer is bringing everyone down. But this is a fucking forum. How popular you are (or the extent you're willing parrot popular opinions) shouldn't decide whether you can display a signature. It's fundamentally problematic to penalize people on such an uneven, subjective basis. That's the opposite of what a forum should be.

Do you want people to freely exchange ideas? Or do you want to create incentives so they post when they don't want to, and express ideas they don't agree with, just to make sure they crank out enough merit?

Merit can (and is being) gamed, and winners and losers will be created -- and not clearly as a matter of post quality. That's okay if the result is an unevenly distributed impediment on the ability to rank up. Big deal, right? But I don't think it's okay if we're talking about stripping basic forum functionality from most users. Fuck that.

I do understand your point. I did try and make the requirement as minimal as possible for this reason. One Merit in the last two months doesn't really require being that active. Also, it is only tempory as the signature is only hidden until they do get a merit point.

What's your basis for saying that? Your anecdotal experience in the context of the initial sMerit distribution? There are millions of forum members.

Something like users must earn 5 merits a months for their account to display a signature

I really hope theymos doesn't stand for this kind of bullshit.

I suggest prohibiting signature campaigns entirely as an alternative.

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March 15, 2018, 02:29:59 AM
 #49

--- snip ---
I suggest prohibiting signature campaigns entirely as an alternative.
I don't think so. Theymos stated that he don't want to destroy the marketing industry in the forum (signature campaigns, in particular); but he will probably think about this 'last' (might be last) solution if the merit system failed to control / eliminate spammers out of the forum. I strongly believe that Theymos will not launch new rules which prohibit signature campaigns, because as you can see merit system has shown strong positive impacts on the forum users (on different ranks of users, from lower-ranked to higher-ranked users).

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March 15, 2018, 02:45:10 AM
 #50

I do think that the scam/spam accounts who got ported over from the old system are now slowly losing sMerit, but it would take at least 2 or 3 months before they're completely gone. We're talking about people with 500 or 600 merits... that means they can send 300 merits = 30 member accounts.

And for signature campaigns, Member accounts is all you need to get in.

The merit system is still young, barely 2 months old. I would give it a month more for the landscape to develop.

But after reading through some of hte ideas on this thread, I would propose the following:

1. A DT Merit attribute. Just like DT1 and DT2 people, we should have a DM1 and DM2 system for merits. I've stated it before -- the merit system is evolving into a quasi-trust system where people don't give merit on mere post quality, but on Trust as well. That said, we can cut the number of false sMerits being thrown around by simply diminishing the weight of each sMerit given by spam accounts.

For example, if an account doesn't get a merit within X number of days, then he's no longer DM1 or DM2. The sMerits he gives out during this period are equivalent to 0.5 merits. E.g.: non-DM1/2 account sends 2 sMerits to Z, Z only gets 1 Merit.

But if an account receives a merit within X number of days, he's either in DM1 or DM2. Then his merit weight is normal: If he sends 2 sMerits to Z, Z gets 2 Merits.

I believe this is a fair system that doesn't delve into demeriting or merit decay. But it does help "drain the swamp of sMerits." With this in play, spammers are forced to send 1 merit to an account before that account can send merits to another account... And this kind of activity is easily detected by the mods because you'll see one inactive account with lots of sMerits suddenly gain 1 Merit out of the blue, and like a couple of hours or minutes later, that account will suddenly send out a bunch of merits to another account.

2. Signature Hiding. We can also implement hiding signatures for ACCOUNTS BELOW A CERTAIN RANK. I'm not sure off-hand what the number of spam accounts have reached Hero / Legendary level, but I'd say anyone below Full Member should get a timer. This seems rather fair, yes?

If a Jr. Member or a Member doesn't get a merit within 30 days then their signatures get hidden. It's a little Nazi, but i'm sure that will do the job quite nicely.

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March 15, 2018, 08:05:12 AM
 #51

This forum needs more moderators. The existing ones are doing a great job, but the forum has grown immensely since most of them have been hired, and there are more shitposters than ever.

I'm not sure, I've reported a few posts and they end up getting deleted pretty quickly.

The irony of this thread? It looks like everyone in support of the OP is wearing a paid signature ad. Many of the people you will be penalizing are not. That should be the first sign that you're barking up the wrong tree.

Why should someone lose signature privileges because they don't post very often? Or because they're inactive for a while? Or because there's not enough merit to go around? Or because they're not in a social group that customarily merits each other (like Default Trust cliques, the Wall Observer regulars, etc)? How do you even know that merit distribution is adequate to begin penalizing those who don't earn it?

If some posters aren't receiving merit, it doesn't necessarily follow that post quality is the determining factor, either. I've seen no change since I said this one month ago:

Something like users must earn 5 merits a months for their account to display a signature

I really hope theymos doesn't stand for this kind of bullshit.

I suggest prohibiting signature campaigns entirely as an alternative.

That definitely would work but it would be the nuclear option. I think that as soon as you're paid to post it would become very difficult to not drop your post quality. Maybe if people were limited to something like 5 paid posts per month it would improve things.

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March 15, 2018, 10:01:31 AM
 #52

Hah!  Easy for you to say...  What about cute trolls like me that people seldom give merits to?  I sure am a narcissistic assh*le in the forum at times, but I'm far from being a spammer.

And I'm not here to please anybody for merits.  F*ck that.

One way to make this forum better is to be extra stict for a year or so...

Hey tokeweed, that name I haven't seen around for a long time, you just reminded me of the Cloudhashing thread. I'm sure you don't want to please anybody for merits but I see you got a few anyway.

Sure being strict and banning all the shitposters would be better but there's no sign of that happening. I've reported copy pasters that don't get banned, I've posted in the Known Alts thread about farmers and the Merit abuse thread about that. It's very rare that someone gets tagged. So I went off to come up with a way of automating it.

It's certainly not meant to punish anyone like you or anyone that just doesn't post very often as @squatter and @SaltySpitoon pointed out. I'm sure it would be easier for the moderators to whitelist the few people affected by seeing they obviously are not shitposters than trying to ban the thousands that are.




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March 15, 2018, 01:25:29 PM
 #53

I can say the idea is brilliant and I think it will become effective. My only comment is this will become unfair if the number of merit sources is not enough. So if this will be implemented in the future I think Theymos should make sure that the number of merit sources is enough.
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March 15, 2018, 01:31:02 PM
 #54

We should find them and have a review of their posts and merit them if they have merit worthy posts. not everybody here has a few merit source friends to notice their contribution.
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March 15, 2018, 02:08:20 PM
Merited by digaran (2), McWorse (1)
 #55

This

We should find them and have a review of their posts and merit them if they have merit worthy posts. not everybody here has a few merit source friends to notice their contribution.

This

Why should someone lose signature privileges because they don't post very often? Or because they're inactive for a while? Or because there's not enough merit to go around? Or because they're not in a social group that customarily merits each other (like Default Trust cliques, the Wall Observer regulars, etc)? How do you even know that merit distribution is adequate to begin penalizing those who don't earn it?
-snip-
And you can be damn sure that no matter how meritorious a post is, you will not receive merit if your opinions are not agreeable. Nobody hits the "like" button when Debbie Downer is bringing everyone down. But this is a fucking forum. How popular you are (or the extent you're willing parrot popular opinions) shouldn't decide whether you can display a signature. It's fundamentally problematic to penalize people on such an uneven, subjective basis. That's the opposite of what a forum should be.

And This

I think, that I am not the only one:
I did not receive a single merit since this new system started.
Maybe its because I am not making friends here. Maybe I am posting in the wrong threads. Maybe my postings don't reach that high quality which is needed for earning merits ... I don't know. I don't take care about it. It doesn't matter. In the meantime, I have said goodbye to the idea of being able to ascend again at all.
Again: That doesn't matter.

But getting a spammer's stamp on my account ... nah ... that matters.

So please take care, that you don't hit the wrong members when you try to solve a big (yes! it is!) problem here.

Regards!
McW


edit:
You should take a look here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3121688.0

It is very hard to earn merits. And when you let them drop every months, you will leave a lot of frustrated members behind...


Possibly I've been wrong, but most merits are distributed among coteries and groups. The posts that tend to belittle others and point fingers are the ones that have been receiving merits as well. Posts like ICO ANN and Bounties ANN by Bounty managers are receiving merits( WHY Huh).

I've rarely tried to please people and have also tried to increase the quality of my posts in the past months, but I've rarely received merits from unknown sources, just people that know or those I have merited (dunno if it was a gesture or anything but I never asked them for it).  

A lot of people have been harping on the Sig campaigns thing. Here are a couple of things:

Q1. Why do companies have Sign Campaigns?


A. To
    (a.) To grab eyeballs so that people know about them and invest or use those services.
    (b.) To pay posters who make good posts on BCT.

I think it's the (a.). (Correct me if I'm wrong or have a wrong notion anywhere in this post.)

Q2. Do people make decisions to invest in ICO or use a service based on the Sign Holders?

A. I've seen people wear the Signature of a Mixer, I have looked into the service and it looks AWESOME. I wouldn't care if a racist half-wit is wearing that signature and spamming endlessly (actually someone racist is wearing it), I have and will use the service.

I've also seen many good posters wear the sign of a Mining company and I have looked into it again, will I invest, HELL NO!

Q3. What's the use of merits and such regulations then?
A. I hate to say it, but the winners are ICO Bounties that need to pay less (Sorry Satoshi, but Centralized Institutions are winning), because people won't rank up. I think the only useful system is the TRUST, that too when u are trading and not proselytizing your political opinions. As for rest, all Ranks and Merits should be abolished and each Bounty Manager shud be made to count posts and assess the quality and pay for them. ICOs are happy to have 100 Jr. Members Shit-Post and say Good Project while grabbing attention to their projects, because that also is a form of marketing. Why do the PAUL BROTHERS and their gangs have Millions of views when all they make is SHIT, because even cringe is appealing and makes for good marketing.

Q4. What's my proposed solution?
A. Read the BOLD part up.
EDIT : Initiatives such as SMAS list by Lauda is a good reference point and I applaud them, although I'm on the list (Rightly so!) and believe that it has little utility in terms of marketing. (Again grabbing eye-balls is more important !)


My 2cents
: All of us can agree that Sign campaigns pay well, but do they pay to make good posts or to grab eyeballs. If it was to make good posts, add that in Article Bounties. I hope someone points out valid loopholes and assumptions that I made.

Thanks.


P.S. Can some marketing veteran point it out that my logic has fallacies, but remember that most investors in ICOs are extremely clueless and not a reformed crowd that they would care for quality of adverts or advertisers. We also have instances in the past to prove it. MIOTA raised a small seed on forum and was being called a SCAM all the time. The marketing was shit, but most of us can agree that the project is doing good today.

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March 15, 2018, 02:44:58 PM
 #56

@McWorse

I gave you a merit for making what I thought was a rational reasoned post. I think your problem could be that you spend too much time on the Alt Boards, and some of us think that the Alt Boards attract the spam posters who are the cancer affecting the forum. There are a lot of great boards here, and a whole new life outside the Alt-World.

Bitcoin Scammer ==>> Your chance to buy BitcoinScammer.com, and create a great surfer protection site.
Click here to visit the site, and make an offer
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March 15, 2018, 03:01:28 PM
 #57

yes you are right. it is very hard to get merit in the post.
It takes lots of time for myself to get 10 merits.
I know how much i have to work to get the merit.
but this thing give me lots of knowledge about crypto.
Thanks to the forum. I am very happy where i am right now.

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March 15, 2018, 06:54:20 PM
 #58

@McWorse

I gave you a merit for making what I thought was a rational reasoned post. I think your problem could be that you spend too much time on the Alt Boards, and some of us think that the Alt Boards attract the spam posters who are the cancer affecting the forum. There are a lot of great boards here, and a whole new life outside the Alt-World.

Thank you very much Jet Cash!
The thing is, that I place my main focus on Alts. Alts are the reason, why I am here. I am interested in new and (hopefully) good projects and this is the best platform to get informations. Nowhere else in the www does so many knowledge come together as here. So when you look into the altcoin sections, you have to make some differences in your view, because the cancer is not the Alts. The problem is the lack of moderation. But ask me, how you can moderate something like this... I have no answer. Except you have a full army of mods. People are spamming with multiple accounts, destroying many serious threads. They think, if they spread FUD, they can manipulate the prices. They think, they can do what they want. I don't know, how we can call this kind of users to order. Every idea I have may hit the wrong people:

- implement a strong post limit for newbies and junior members (one, maybe two posts per day), no post during the first 120 hours after registration, exept in a section for important questions.
- create sections where it is impossible to post for newbies & junior members, but where they can read. Once they are a member, they can write one post per day in this sections. After some merit they can post more.

The hurdles have to be high for new members, but they should always have the possibility to make themself heard. But the admittance to the main sections should be restricted. Until they have proven that they deserve access. Once they have access ... maybe they are proud. They consider their accounts valuable, protect their status and don't throw it away so quickly.
?

Now, one could object: What about the sig-campaigns with 10 to 20 requested posts? Isn't it mean, that newer members can't take part? I think no. The system of the sig-campaigns will adapt. Has to adapt. This is first and foremost a platform on which you can exchange information. And somewhere after that, it's about making money. Right now, it's the other way around. And that rotten tooth needs pulling.

Regards!
McW

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March 16, 2018, 01:04:37 AM
 #59


How could you even bother talking about receiving merits? you are a shill for crapcoins, you think that XRP is better than Bitcoin and it should replace it in market. if you are blind to the truth, how could you contribute something worth a merit?
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March 16, 2018, 07:38:38 AM
 #60

It is the wrong place to discuss this. Specially, when facts hitting religion. Because from a technical point of view: XRP is better than BTC. Anyone who denies this isn't worth discussing with. I never said, that XRP should replace BTC. I never said, that I like the system behind XRP. I never said, that I like the global financial system. Quite the opposite! But I can differentiate. Sadly, most of us here can't. You seem like a good example for that...

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LKingLion
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March 16, 2018, 08:03:12 AM
 #61

In my opinion this will harden the hearts of under not merited.

This will knock out everyone who aren't merited yet. Take note op that it will be more complicated. More postings will come in every sides steps of this forum then more earn shitpostings posted garbages maybe including me, hope not so.

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March 16, 2018, 08:08:55 AM
 #62

In my opinion this will harden the hearts of under not merited.

This will knock out everyone who aren't merited yet. Take note op that it will be more complicated. More postings will come in every sides steps of this forum then more earn shitpostings posted garbages maybe including me, hope not so.

I would suggest you stick to your local board as that looks like it was written in the unintelligible language of Genglish (Google translated English). Your posting history shows you are indeed the very type of shitposter that the merit system is trying keep out.

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March 16, 2018, 10:26:46 AM
Merited by Jet Cash (1)
 #63

I have noticed that these spammers are very easy to spot now, they are the ones stuck on 100, 250, 500 or whatever merit number they were initially given. They haven't managed to gain one single Merit point in the last 6 weeks.
Your definition of spammer is someone who has never been merited.  Shocked

I can only congratulation McWorse for receiving 1 merit in last 6 weeks!
Congratulation! You are no longer a spammer!
I hope that one day I will receive 1 merit because I don't want to be spammer any more!  Cheesy

Do we have statistics about:
How many accounts are unmerited?
How many accounts have never merited any one?
How many accounts merited friends?
Bought merits?
Exchanged merits?
Sent merit to alt accounts?
Sent merit because someone said something against person they don't like?

How many merits were sent because 2 persons have the same point of view of certain things? Do you have an example where someone has sent merits even if they disagreed? If you don't agree with someone you won't send him merit, that is how merit works in 99.99999% situations.

I sent you merit because you made constructive post, but I don't agree with anything written in it.


Hurray! I am not spammer any more! THANK YOU JET CASH! Cheesy

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March 16, 2018, 10:37:43 AM
 #64


I can only congratulation McWorse for receiving 1 merit in last 6 weeks!
Congratulation! You are no longer a spammer!
I hope that one day I will receive 1 merit because I don't want to be spammer any more!  Cheesy


I was the one who turned McWorse into McBetter. Smiley

I probably shouldn't have done it, but I gave you a merit as well. Now you are a whammer and not a spammer.

It must be the euphoria that results from deciding to buy a Samsung 860 SSD.

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March 16, 2018, 11:32:50 AM
 #65

Your definition of spammer is someone who has never been merited.  Shocked

That wasn't quite what I meant, I said they were easy to spot because most spammers have not received any merit. That's not the same as everyone who has no merit is a spammer.
So if my suggestion was implemented* it would not be saying that anyone whose signature is hidden is a spammer, just that they didn't do enough to earn the privilege.

I did say this earlier but it is worth repeating and expanding on a little. This forum is pretty unique in allowing members to benefit from being given some advertising space under their posts. That's a privilege, not a right and it's given in return for providing content to the forum. I think it is pretty reasonable theymos brought in the merit system as a way of trying to halt the influx of spammers that have taken advantage of this generosity on his part. Of course, you can argue it is not a perfect system, it can be gamed (for a while), some deserving people miss out.... etc. But can you devise a better way? Or even if you think you can, then remember that theymos is the boss here and we are his guests, so just accept this is the way he is doing it.

theymos has already said that if the merit system fails to stop the shitposting then the next step he will take is to remove signatures altogether. I think that is punishing everyone for the actions of some and I think my suggestion reduces the collateral damage. I can't devise a system to completely eliminate it but if anyone can I'll listen to it.

Do we have statistics about:
How many accounts are unmerited?
How many accounts have never merited any one?
How many accounts merited friends?
Bought merits?
Exchanged merits?
Sent merit to alt accounts?
Sent merit because someone said something against person they don't like?

The first two will be answerable with a bit more work. People like LoyceV have started on that sort of data. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3078328

The next 5 questions pertain to abuse of which there has been much. But that is a big part of why I came up with this idea. Having an ongoing requirement to keep signatures on display would force them to use up all their sMerit and at some point in the future, they'll be f***ed.

The last question follows into this:

How many merits were sent because 2 persons have the same point of view of certain things? Do you have an example where someone has sent merits even if they disagreed? If you don't agree with someone you won't send him merit, that is how merit works in 99.99999% situations.

I sent you merit because you made constructive post, but I don't agree with anything written in it.


Hurray! I am not spammer any more! THANK YOU JET CASH! Cheesy

This is one of the imperfections, people will use it as a 'like' button. But is anyone really alone in their opinion rather than opinion being split and there being people on both sides with merit to give?

I do hope as time goes by that the supply of merit is increased substantially and all constructive posts receive merit. Until then we have a tight budget and many will go unrewarded but I don't think it will always be that way.


* It won't be, so no need to worry. The only staff member to reply is SaltySpitoon and he is against the idea.

Edit:
Do you have an example where someone has sent merits even if they disagreed?

I've noticed Foxpup gave me 6 merits for the OP of this post and also gave merit to 4 replies including this from SaltySpitoon https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3122415.msg32297210#msg32297210 and this from squatter https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3122415.msg32334973#msg32334973 both of disagreed with me. So I don't know Foxpup's view but he seems OK with giving merit to both sides of a debate.



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March 16, 2018, 11:50:44 AM
 #66

It's quite difficult to decide how to award merit. I've given out getting on for 200 smerits, and that is mainly in ones with a few twos. Obviously I don't have time to check on a member's posting history or attitude to the forum. I have to go by my subjective opinion of the posts that I read, and there isn't any forum guidance on the policy of awarding merit. Apart from the obvious restrictions on sales and reciprocal awards of course.

I really have to rely on my use of the ignore option to avoid awarding merit to a member that I think is abusing the system, and I know that some people are on ignore to avoid personal inconvenience, rather than because of a breach of the forum rules.

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March 16, 2018, 02:49:56 PM
 #67

It's quite difficult to decide how to award merit. I've given out getting on for 200 smerits, and that is mainly in ones with a few twos. Obviously I don't have time to check on a member's posting history or attitude to the forum. I have to go by my subjective opinion of the posts that I read, and there isn't any forum guidance on the policy of awarding merit. Apart from the obvious restrictions on sales and reciprocal awards of course.

I really have to rely on my use of the ignore option to avoid awarding merit to a member that I think is abusing the system, and I know that some people are on ignore to avoid personal inconvenience, rather than because of a breach of the forum rules.

There were some hints given by the admin like one should not give merits to a post just because he agrees to it. This is a valid point but I know most of the new members act based on emotions and do not use logic while awarding merits. However, this should not be big issue in my opinion for the form. What matters the most is that merit sources should be most careful while awarding merits. I hope admin has given them some directions regarding how to award merits. If they are giving merits to responsible members here, the cycle will continue.

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March 16, 2018, 03:18:21 PM
 #68

I agree with you. Accounts which won't get any merit (or specific number of merits depends on each rank because higher ranks should have more knowledge, more skills, more experience, so they will probably have more chances to earn merits) over a specific period (might be one, two or three months) should be disabled ability to wear signature.

Prerequisites related to merit points to join campaigns, bounties depends on those campaigns managers, not forum admin. So this suggestion is not appropriate.

Thanks for all of your recommendations, TheQuin.
I've seen a lot of high ranking members that are still shitposters and seeing their posts seems like they didn't really know anything useful to contribute to the forum. It's a shame for them so this idea would be good for all of us here. We had enough of low ranking members who are constantly creating similar threads over and over again asking questions that can be easily answered if they put even a little effort on researching about it.

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March 16, 2018, 03:23:19 PM
 #69

There have been a few threads about awards, but they aren't really helpful. There are some obvious things that shouldn't be done - selling merits, exchanges between friends, and using merits as rewards for various actions such as ICO promotions. Really good technical help posts should receive awards. For example, if someone posts a detailed guide which helps a member to recover lost coins, then I think he should be rewarded. Unfortunately, this often doesn't happen, mainly because the advisor is a Legendary, and the feeling is that he doesn't need merit. I think that ranking should be a secondary consideration, the main factor is the quality of the post.

Another difficult area is the social aspect of Bitcoin Talk. It's primary function is as a help, advice and discussion forum about Bitcoin, and recently about other crypto-currencies. However, there is a lighter social side, and keeping this active is of benefit to the forum and its members. Should merit be awarded to good entertaining posts on the social boards?

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March 16, 2018, 03:36:16 PM
 #70

~snipped to avoid going on Jet Cash's ignore list~

I really think that what deserves merit should be left to the individual. I usually favour posts that I learned from, made me think about something differently, answered something better than I could, or even just made me laugh.

But I always come back to this post (my highlighting):

@DooMAD
If they're really not adding anything, then they shouldn't get merit. But it doesn't need to be mind-blowing, either. Someone suggested a feature where all umerited posts would be hidden (which I may do at some point) -- I think that it'd be good to look at it as asking what posts you would want in such a summary. So not just incredible posts which might've taken an hour or more to write (those should probably get 10+ merit), but also the questions, arguments, jokes, etc. which couldn't be removed from a thread without starting to lobotomize it.

It's all very new, of course, so maybe this strategy will not actually be the best, but it is what I had in mind when designing the system.

@TMAN, I have been adding sources, and I will continue.

We're all being stingy with merit because there isn't enough yet. Everything that makes a contribution should get merit.

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March 16, 2018, 03:59:04 PM
 #71

I'm sorry Mr TheQuin, but I couldn't see your post. Smiley

- as if I would dare to put you on my ignore list.

Quote
So not just incredible posts which might've taken an hour or more to write (those should probably get 10+ merit),

This is where I come unstuck. I think a post like that has no business in a discussion thread, but it should be in an article hosted somewhere ( Steemit or YouTube spring to mind), and a link plus brief comment posted in the thread. The chances are that If the poster does that too often, I would put him on ignore, rather than give him a bunch of merits.

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March 16, 2018, 04:11:02 PM
 #72

This is where I come unstuck. I think a post like that has no business in a discussion thread, but it should be in an article hosted somewhere ( Steemit or YouTube spring to mind), and a link plus brief comment posted in the thread. The chances are that If the poster does that too often, I would put him on ignore, rather than give him a bunch of merits.

I don't really post anywhere other here so that wouldn't be too good for me. I think it's OK to write a good long OP once in a while..... whether I bother to read too many of them is another issue.

That wasn't really the point of quoting that post. Is was the 'everything that makes a contribution should get at least 1' part that matters.

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March 16, 2018, 04:42:32 PM
 #73

We'd be swamped with merits, and surely that would defeat the whole purpose. For some reason, I seem to be the only person with merits to award, and I suspect that that is because I only give them out in ones and twos.

I noticed that just after I had given merit to four posters in the Steemit thread, somebody started another Steemit thread.

Four posters could have created bedlam if I had awarded merit in the new thread. Smiley

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Cobalt9317
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March 16, 2018, 04:51:17 PM
 #74

This is where I come unstuck. I think a post like that has no business in a discussion thread, but it should be in an article hosted somewhere ( Steemit or YouTube spring to mind), and a link plus brief comment posted in the thread. The chances are that If the poster does that too often, I would put him on ignore, rather than give him a bunch of merits.

I'm very familiar with that kind of person.
But would not dare to refer him/her.

However those kind of thread give me knowvalance, I think it is better to put it that way rather than getting spammed with various thread that wasn't helpful at all.

If that long thread is helping the community with some knowledge that they could use somehow I deem it is meritorious in itself despite who created the thread.

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March 16, 2018, 04:55:56 PM
 #75

Unfair. A lot of people like to take vacations away from the forum to come back refreshed. If you want to take the entire summer out of the computer which I recommend everyone to do if possible, and forget about things and get some sun... you would come back with your account penalized for doing so. Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

Then you have people which are generally very inactive, but when they post they post very high quality stuff, like gmaxwell and others. It wouldn't also be fair for them to get their account eventually go down in merit points/ranking because of that. Even if older posts sometimes get merit points, on a long enough timeline, the tendency would be to lose points since older posts get buried eventually, penalizing inactive users, which again, doesn't make sense. One should be free to post or not without losing the efforts you did in the past.

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March 16, 2018, 05:01:41 PM
 #76

Unfair. A lot of people like to take vacations away from the forum to come back refreshed. If you want to take the entire summer out of the computer which I recommend everyone to do if possible, and forget about things and get some sun... you would come back with your account penalized for doing so. Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

Then you have people which are generally very inactive, but when they post they post very high quality stuff, like gmaxwell and others. It wouldn't also be fair for them to get their account eventually go down in merit points/ranking because of that. Even if older posts sometimes get merit points, on a long enough timeline, the tendency would be to lose points since older posts get buried eventually, penalizing inactive users, which again, doesn't make sense. One should be free to post or not without losing the efforts you did in the past.

I'm not sure if you fully understood. It would just mean that the signature was hidden until the next time they did get a merit. Nobody gets de-ranked or loses anything. I also already suggested when a few other people made a similar point that it would be a lot easier for the moderators to whitelist the few accounts that would effect rather than try to ban the many thousands of sig spammers.

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March 17, 2018, 09:57:49 AM
 #77

Unfair. A lot of people like to take vacations away from the forum to come back refreshed. If you want to take the entire summer out of the computer which I recommend everyone to do if possible, and forget about things and get some sun... you would come back with your account penalized for doing so. Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

Then you have people which are generally very inactive, but when they post they post very high quality stuff, like gmaxwell and others. It wouldn't also be fair for them to get their account eventually go down in merit points/ranking because of that. Even if older posts sometimes get merit points, on a long enough timeline, the tendency would be to lose points since older posts get buried eventually, penalizing inactive users, which again, doesn't make sense. One should be free to post or not without losing the efforts you did in the past.

I'm not sure if you fully understood. It would just mean that the signature was hidden until the next time they did get a merit. Nobody gets de-ranked or loses anything. I also already suggested when a few other people made a similar point that it would be a lot easier for the moderators to whitelist the few accounts that would effect rather than try to ban the many thousands of sig spammers.


hiding signatures after no-merit-increase is a bright improvement indeed. really highlights the antispam system since merits really working only one way. and antispam system should be dynamic. also vacation mode could be introduced with automatic signature whitelist request to moderator?

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March 17, 2018, 12:42:07 PM
 #78

That merit thing is becoming a communistic idea. For Newbies like me, merit will be mandatory for progressing, and I understand this. But harassing everyone to earn merit constantly is a bit too much, really. Now it aims to impose more and more restrictions. This forum should be a place of freedom, but it is getting restricted more and more, sadly.
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March 17, 2018, 12:49:09 PM
 #79

That merit thing is becoming a communistic idea. For Newbies like me, merit will be mandatory for progressing, and I understand this. But harassing everyone to earn merit constantly is a bit too much, really. Now it aims to impose more and more restrictions. This forum should be a place of freedom, but it is getting restricted more and more, sadly.

I wouldn't call it restrictive. You don't need merit to use the forum (with the exception of the Ivory Tower sub-forum).

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March 17, 2018, 12:56:09 PM
 #80

That merit thing is becoming a communistic idea. For Newbies like me, merit will be mandatory for progressing, and I understand this. But harassing everyone to earn merit constantly is a bit too much, really. Now it aims to impose more and more restrictions. This forum should be a place of freedom, but it is getting restricted more and more, sadly.

If you want to exploit the forum, and that is what the sig spammers are doing, then I think it is fair to make you prove that your posting habits are trustworthy. The merit system was created for this purpose. It is obvious from the abundance of merit threads that many new members, and some of the older ones, are not worthy of that trust.

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March 17, 2018, 01:00:33 PM
 #81

Something like users must earn 5 merits a months for their account to display a signature if being done by theymos or managers can make a user earn 1 merit per week to stay in a campaign.
I strongly disagree with this.Even though the merit system is doing well,I don't think every quality poster is awarded merits.My point being,a participant could be a great quality poster but due to whatever reasons his unmerited posts shouldn't stop him from participating in campaigns.

This also means anybody who has earned 1 merit in a week but is a spammer to the core will also be eligible to display the signature.I can show you 10 shit one liner posts which have been credited with 10+ merits.
many low quality post is being merited while there are contructive post and informative is not being noticed. what if you didnt get any merit in a month, youre not a spammer and giving your best to write quality post but in the end not receiving any merit to others? i think its a unjust idea to restrict them to wear or to participate signature campaigns just because they are not noticed by others.

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March 17, 2018, 01:21:38 PM
 #82

Am new to this forum and read why merit system was introduced,basically its cuz of decrease spamming
And to force members to post quality posts in order to get higher rank.
But whole point was people still do shit post and account farming only reason was BOUNTY'S.
It can be stop if bounty manager's have a strict rule for signature campaign
Like minimum ___  word of post only get counted or something like if your post get a merit
Then you get ___ number of stake extra etc...

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March 17, 2018, 01:28:46 PM
 #83

Am new to this forum and read why merit system was introduced,basically its cuz of decrease spamming
And to force members to post quality posts in order to get higher rank.
But whole point was people still do shit post and account farming only reason was BOUNTY'S.
It can be stop if bounty manager's have a strict rule for signature campaign
Like minimum ___  word of post only get counted or something like if your post get a merit
Then you get ___ number of stake extra etc...


It is ineffective.
Almost all of them afaik have minimum words and it didn't reduce the spam. You can make min 500 words limit, they will write redundant content/ideas until they hit that limit.
Giving them a way to increase their reward by owning merit is simply inciting them to trade merit between them/their (alt)accounts.



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March 17, 2018, 01:31:39 PM
 #84

Minimum word count is a bad move. Brevity, as long as it makes the point, should be rewarded instead.

I wonder if the bounty managers realise that a long formatted post takes their sig off the page, and thus it isn't dispayed. It is then skipped over when the reader moves down the thread.

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March 17, 2018, 01:47:30 PM
 #85

Something like users must earn 5 merits a months for their account to display a signature if being done by theymos or managers can make a user earn 1 merit per week to stay in a campaign.
I strongly disagree with this.Even though the merit system is doing well,I don't think every quality poster is awarded merits.My point being,a participant could be a great quality poster but due to whatever reasons his unmerited posts shouldn't stop him from participating in campaigns.

This also means anybody who has earned 1 merit in a week but is a spammer to the core will also be eligible to display the signature.I can show you 10 shit one liner posts which have been credited with 10+ merits.
I agree Joel_Jantsen; Earning merit is not guaranteed parameter of standard quality post and non earning of even one merit point by the poster does not mean that he is just a shitposter.  
People are very clever; no one can stop them in barter trade; i.e. sending merit to the person and in exchange getting merit from the receiver.  Also selling and buying is not so  difficult as we have been getting news from different members about the issue.  
Though it is also true that members are stuck at 10 100 250 500 etc etc also they got these merit points just because of their long back presence at this platform.

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March 17, 2018, 02:31:56 PM
 #86

Why asking, what the forum has to do?
We should better aks, what the offerer of the sig-campaigns should do.

Sometimes I'm browsing the bounty threads. And most sig-campaigns have the requirement to write at least 20 (sometimes 30) quality posts per week. That means  around 3 (to 4) quality posts per day. I avoid such campaigns, because to write 3 to 4 really good posts I need up to two hours. 14 hours a week for mostly some pennies. But many users don't care. They are taking part and: spam.

Instead of punishing users now, those responsibles for the sig-campaigns should be punished. Maybe their ANNs deleted or other hurtful things. They are responsible for the abuse of this platform, so they are in dept to deliver and not this platform.

?

Maybe they should be forced to reduce the reqirements. 5 post max per week. And if a member is blatant spamming, they should kick this member immediately. If not, the ANNs will be deleted.

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March 17, 2018, 02:50:05 PM
 #87

Why asking, what the forum has to do?
We should better aks, what the offerer of the sig-campaigns should do.

Sometimes I'm browsing the bounty threads. And most sig-campaigns have the requirement to write at least 20 (sometimes 30) quality posts per week. That means  around 3 (to 4) quality posts per day. I avoid such campaigns, because to write 3 to 4 really good posts I need up to two hours. 14 hours a week for mostly some pennies. But many users don't care. They are taking part and: spam.

Instead of punishing users now, those responsibles for the sig-campaigns should be punished. Maybe their ANNs deleted or other hurtful things. They are responsible for the abuse of this platform, so they are in dept to deliver and not this platform.

?

Maybe they should be forced to reduce the reqirements. 5 post max per week. And if a member is blatant spamming, they should kick this member immediately. If not, the ANNs will be deleted.

I too had this thought and have encountered it in other threads. The fact that some Sign campaigns have uneven expectations and want to enforce them, has been the undoing of this forum too. Too many posts, simply to reach the post count has a detrimental effect.

Quantity compromises Quality.

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March 17, 2018, 02:53:04 PM
 #88

Block access to certain levels of the site until certain post counts have been reached?  You don't know what you are missing then Wink

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March 17, 2018, 05:24:37 PM
 #89

That merit thing is becoming a communistic idea. For Newbies like me, merit will be mandatory for progressing, and I understand this. But harassing everyone to earn merit constantly is a bit too much, really. Now it aims to impose more and more restrictions. This forum should be a place of freedom, but it is getting restricted more and more, sadly.

it will take some time to understand that the freedom you mentioning is abused by majority. and the merit system is a try to fix the outcome of this freedom lol

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March 17, 2018, 05:51:21 PM
 #90

That merit thing is becoming a communistic idea. For Newbies like me, merit will be mandatory for progressing, and I understand this. But harassing everyone to earn merit constantly is a bit too much, really. Now it aims to impose more and more restrictions. This forum should be a place of freedom, but it is getting restricted more and more, sadly.

it will take some time to understand that the freedom you mentioning is abused my majority. and the merit system is a try to fix the outcome of this freedom lol

It will also take a little time to understand that being given the privilege of being allocated some advertising space underneath your posts is an extremely generous action by the site owners. Did you think about how much Twitter and Facebook earn from placing adverts next to what you write?

Asking people to do something as trivial as posting something that gets given a merit every couple of months to earn that privilege is not harassing or imposing restrictions on anyone. WTF is this talk of freedom? You are free to use the forum without a signature.

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March 18, 2018, 01:30:55 AM
 #91

it's not the farmers will get affected by this but the ones who got a single account. farmers got a lot of accounts, experience, and friends they can give/ask merits from another account. the one will be affected by this are the solo poster, single who had no friend on bitcointalk, the ones whos inactive and post very less will be affected also. to be honest I hate this idea. Sad

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March 18, 2018, 03:43:24 AM
 #92

it's not the farmers will get affected by this but the ones who got a single account. farmers got a lot of accounts, experience, and friends they can give/ask merits from another account. the one will be affected by this are the solo poster, single who had no friend on bitcointalk, the ones whos inactive and post very less will be affected also. to be honest I hate this idea. Sad

i guess one post could get you a lot of merit that would be enough for months. but with current amount of merit sources it feels completely impossible to get any merit if you not 5star well-known user. hope this will change soon, a lot of good material is being ignored

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March 18, 2018, 05:08:31 AM
 #93

The Merit system has been with us for six weeks now and is clearly having some success in reducing the spam. It is now very hard, if not impossible, for account farmers to provide a constant supply of high ranked accounts. This, of course, is good news for any of us who have become tired of finding any interesting content quickly buried under a pile of shitposts.

What this hasn't addressed is the large number of accounts already in the hands of shitposters. Let's be honest about what rank is all about - signatures and the ability to gain income from them. The ability of someone who is already in possession of, for example, a Hero account (or 10) to continue to get paid for every shitpost they tack on the end of a spam megathread has not diminished or been restrained by the Merit system.

Some campaign managers have taken the initiative to make minimum Merit requirements compulsory to join their campaigns but those managers were already the ones with high standards. They were not the problem, it has always been the managers that just blindly accept the first x hundred people to apply and pay them regardless of the spam they produce.

I have noticed that these spammers are very easy to spot now, they are the ones stuck on 100, 250, 500 or whatever merit number they were initially given. They haven't managed to gain one single Merit point in the last 6 weeks.

So to my suggestion:

Amend the forum to hide signatures of any account that hasn't earned at least 1 Merit in the last 2 months.

This will bar them from getting paid to post and not have any negative impact on anyone making even the tiniest contribution to the forum. Nobody loses their rank and even if someone is away from the forum for a while they can quickly get their signature back.



This will play to the advantage of the spammers. All they have to do is pass merits around with each other, while the real accounts have no one to pass merits to them unless some other real account decides to.


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March 18, 2018, 05:37:22 AM
 #94

This will play to the advantage of the spammers. All they have to do is pass merits around with each other, while the real accounts have no one to pass merits to them unless some other real account decides to.

I think I'm going to need to add a FAQ section to the OP.

I did think of that. Unfortunately, any system devised by man there will be another man trying to game it. The problem they will face is that they will quickly run out of sMerit to abuse, that was why I suggested an ongoing requirement. Like the Merit system itself, it will take time for it to show its full effect.

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March 18, 2018, 05:49:31 AM
 #95

This will play to the advantage of the spammers. All they have to do is pass merits around with each other, while the real accounts have no one to pass merits to them unless some other real account decides to.

I think I'm going to need to add a FAQ section to the OP.

I did think of that. Unfortunately, any system devised by man there will be another man trying to game it. The problem they will face is that they will quickly run out of sMerit to abuse, that was why I suggested an ongoing requirement. Like the Merit system itself, it will take time for it to show its full effect.

That still does not make it a good suggestion in my opinion.

I believe the quicker way is to not allow newbies and Jr. members to create new threads, except in beginners and help, then clean up the rest of the forum from spambait topics and spam mega threads.


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March 18, 2018, 06:06:53 AM
 #96

OP, your idea isn't horrible, but I do think we're way too early in the game to depend on lack of merits being responsible for someone getting censored or anything like that. You know I'd be all in favor for a goal like you mentioned, but I think this proposal has too many potential pitfalls to work--yet.  Maybe in a year or so if we still have jr members with 600 activity and 23 merit...those folks might deserve to be stealth banned or some such thing. 

Remember, it is in fact pretty hard to get merit points for the vast majority here.  It's really going to take some time for them to rank up--especially if their English sucks and they don't avail themselves of the local boards.

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March 18, 2018, 06:42:43 AM
 #97

I believe the quicker way is to not allow newbies and Jr. members to create new threads, except in beginners and help, then clean up the rest of the forum from spambait topics and spam mega threads.

I'd support bringing back Newbie Jail and hiring a load more moderators as well. But that doesn't address the same problem that I was trying to. It's the thousands of higher ranked accounts making pointless repetitive posts that are above the threshold to get deleted by the mods but are only made for signature payment.



OP, your idea isn't horrible, but I do think we're way too early in the game to depend on lack of merits being responsible for someone getting censored or anything like that. You know I'd be all in favor for a goal like you mentioned, but I think this proposal has too many potential pitfalls to work--yet.  Maybe in a year or so if we still have jr members with 600 activity and 23 merit...those folks might deserve to be stealth banned or some such thing. 

Remember, it is in fact pretty hard to get merit points for the vast majority here.  It's really going to take some time for them to rank up--especially if their English sucks and they don't avail themselves of the local boards.

You might be right about it being too early and there not being enough Merit flowing through the system yet. Remember this isn't about censoring or punishing anyone. I just want to turn having a signature into something that has to be continually earned rather than a default right. That's effectively what Merit has done for new accounts but what about the many thousands of shitposters that are already here?

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March 19, 2018, 11:57:29 AM
 #98

The Merit system has been with us for six weeks now and is clearly having some success in reducing the spam. It is now very hard, if not impossible, for account farmers to provide a constant supply of high ranked accounts. This, of course, is good news for any of us who have become tired of finding any interesting content quickly buried under a pile of shitposts.

What this hasn't addressed is the large number of accounts already in the hands of shitposters. Let's be honest about what rank is all about - signatures and the ability to gain income from them. The ability of someone who is already in possession of, for example, a Hero account (or 10) to continue to get paid for every shitpost they tack on the end of a spam megathread has not diminished or been restrained by the Merit system.

Some campaign managers have taken the initiative to make minimum Merit requirements compulsory to join their campaigns but those managers were already the ones with high standards. They were not the problem, it has always been the managers that just blindly accept the first x hundred people to apply and pay them regardless of the spam they produce.

I have noticed that these spammers are very easy to spot now, they are the ones stuck on 100, 250, 500 or whatever merit number they were initially given. They haven't managed to gain one single Merit point in the last 6 weeks.

So to my suggestion:

Amend the forum to hide signatures of any account that hasn't earned at least 1 Merit in the last 2 months.

This will bar them from getting paid to post and not have any negative impact on anyone making even the tiniest contribution to the forum. Nobody loses their rank and even if someone is away from the forum for a while they can quickly get their signature back.



Hello TheQuin,

By doing it you want to hide signatures from Jr.Members also? It's harder for them to get at least 1 merit point, then why would be so cruel for them? Using your suggestion Jr.Members will never get any higher rank, since I have noticed, that people rarely grant merit for Junior, and rather give merit to Hero or higher rank (even just for a huge post, but with few useful words).

I would suggest to make "Anti-Merit" button.

For example if you see some high ranking member is posting some crap, then few (for example 5 members) can start a vote to remove 1 Merit from him.

If they win this vote - crap poster got merit reduction.
If they lose, they (for example) lose their 1 merit point.

This will protect merit owners from being zerged members, willing to cut their merit points.

Of course I understand that my suggested Anti-Merit button should be discuses so that there will be no system abusers in future.

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March 19, 2018, 12:05:00 PM
 #99

Hello TheQuin,

By doing it you want to hide signatures from Jr.Members also? It's harder for them to get at least 1 merit point,

I'd suggest that is ridiculous. People give Merit to the post not the signature underneath it.


I would suggest to make "Anti-Merit" button.

This has been suggested countless times since the introduction of merit and I think it would simply be used as an "I disagree" button or for personal vendettas. I just can't see it working.

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March 19, 2018, 12:08:08 PM
 #100

The Merit system has been with us for six weeks now and is clearly having some success in reducing the spam. It is now very hard, if not impossible, for account farmers to provide a constant supply of high ranked accounts. This, of course, is good news for any of us who have become tired of finding any interesting content quickly buried under a pile of shitposts.

What this hasn't addressed is the large number of accounts already in the hands of shitposters. Let's be honest about what rank is all about - signatures and the ability to gain income from them. The ability of someone who is already in possession of, for example, a Hero account (or 10) to continue to get paid for every shitpost they tack on the end of a spam megathread has not diminished or been restrained by the Merit system.

Some campaign managers have taken the initiative to make minimum Merit requirements compulsory to join their campaigns but those managers were already the ones with high standards. They were not the problem, it has always been the managers that just blindly accept the first x hundred people to apply and pay them regardless of the spam they produce.

I have noticed that these spammers are very easy to spot now, they are the ones stuck on 100, 250, 500 or whatever merit number they were initially given. They haven't managed to gain one single Merit point in the last 6 weeks.

So to my suggestion:

Amend the forum to hide signatures of any account that hasn't earned at least 1 Merit in the last 2 months.

This will bar them from getting paid to post and not have any negative impact on anyone making even the tiniest contribution to the forum. Nobody loses their rank and even if someone is away from the forum for a while they can quickly get their signature back.



Hello TheQuin,

By doing it you want to hide signatures from Jr.Members also? It's harder for them to get at least 1 merit point, then why would be so cruel for them? Using your suggestion Jr.Members will never get any higher rank, since I have noticed, that people rarely grant merit for Junior, and rather give merit to Hero or higher rank (even just for a huge post, but with few useful words).

I would suggest to make "Anti-Merit" button.

For example if you see some high ranking member is posting some crap, then few (for example 5 members) can start a vote to remove 1 Merit from him.

If they win this vote - crap poster got merit reduction.
If they lose, they (for example) lose their 1 merit point.

This will protect merit owners from being zerged members, willing to cut their merit points.

Of course I understand that my suggested Anti-Merit button should be discuses so that there will be no system abusers in future.

No no, just stop guys, you are trying to make it too complicated. This is a forum after all, we can't keep implementing new systems all the time to stop shitposters, every forum has them, sure there is an incentive to post crap in this one but still. The merit system as is, it's perfect, eventually people that cheat will run out of merits and usually get busted and the high rank spammers usually get busted as well, they either get banned or red tagged by someone like vod or other people that usually tags shit posters. It just needs time, in a year from now, I can assure you there will be significantly less spammers.

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March 19, 2018, 12:22:35 PM
 #101

...I can assure you there will be significantly less spammers.

Btw I think it will be more, not less spammers. Previously, acc traders make few accounts and pump to highest rank. Now I see they are making tons of newbie and jr.members accounts and selling then. I even saw someone selling newbie accounts for 5$. Ridiculous.

My "voting" method will cut all merits from high rank accounts sellers, that now sell merit...

Hello TheQuin,

By doing it you want to hide signatures from Jr.Members also? It's harder for them to get at least 1 merit point,

I'd suggest that is ridiculous. People give Merit to the post not the signature underneath it.

Ok, there is true in your words, but who will give merit for a post from newbie?
In my experiance, more often merit receive users with beautiful signature and avatars, than a person with only nickname and number of activity and merit number..

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March 19, 2018, 12:43:05 PM
 #102

Ok, there is true in your words, but who will give merit for a post from newbie?
In my experiance, more often merit receive users with beautiful signature and avatars, than a person with only nickname and number of activity and merit number..

I will and have done so. Usually, they will have learned to trim quotes so people don't have to scroll through the whole of the post they just read again. Then after mastering the basics of using a forum they have posted something that I found interesting, didn't already know, answered a question better than I could or just simply made me laugh.

Really signatures and avatars don't make any difference other than sometimes I feel a bit guilty if someone is promoting a scammy ICO, but it doesn't stop me.

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March 19, 2018, 12:49:33 PM
 #103


Ok, there is true in your words, but who will give merit for a post from newbie?
In my experiance, more often merit receive users with beautiful signature and avatars, than a person with only nickname and number of activity and merit number..

I haven't bothered to read this thread, because there are so many inconsiderate posters that keep on bulking their posts with repetitive quotes. If you want people to read your point, don't wrap it in a load of old vegetation.

I did spot the quoted comment, and I have given merit to a wide range of new, and not so new, members, and that includes some who I awarded for their first post in the forum. I won't give merit if I don't read your post though, and I probably won't see it if I have to wade through a mass of repeated text.

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March 28, 2018, 06:54:48 PM
 #104


Some campaign managers have taken the initiative to make minimum Merit requirements compulsory to join their campaigns but those managers were already the ones with high standards. They were not the problem, it has always been the managers that just blindly accept the first x hundred people to apply and pay them regardless of the spam they produce.



Honestly, I think it is a good practice.
But I think signature campaigns should not be restricted for non-merit heroes-legends members, their stacks should be reduced in a half, I think it will be fair and enough to stimulate make quality posts. And will give more income for merit members. Fortunately , there are managers who already implemented such practice.

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March 28, 2018, 07:09:30 PM
 #105

[
In my experiance, more often merit receive users with beautiful signature and avatars, than a person with only nickname and number of activity and merit number..

That is only true if the awarder is a sig spammer, an alt, or a bounty manager.

Also, Jet Cash has awarded merit to brand new members for their first posts. I suspect he is not unique in this.

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March 31, 2018, 06:32:08 PM
 #106

Well look who become selfish and how people of the forum becoming self centered now a days, if I can't earn one merit in a month then it means I cant join signature bounty even I reach Jr. Member rank? I think some cells on your brain has died due to dehydration and need to be watered, when your request become legal and adopted it means only higher accounts will only survive our forum?, and only you will earn and take all the credit together with your family, friends and neighbor? Then what's next? Limit all income of bounty hunter due to count of merit? Award base on merit? ha, go and study law subject for you to be enlighten again.

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March 31, 2018, 06:42:38 PM
 #107

Limit all income of bounty hunter